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/cgl/ - Cosplay & EGL

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6605541 No.6605541 [Reply] [Original]

Do you think there's a difference between a cosplayer who's a fan of the series and a cosplayer who researches the show.

Assuming the fan and the researcher have the same level of knowledge and trivia, would it matter?

>> No.6605544

Do you even have to ask?

>> No.6605666

>>6605544
/cgl/ at their finest

>> No.6605677

Yes the difference being they are a fan or they are a researcher.
That's it.

Though if say I want to meet fans of the series, then the researcher just knows their shit but isn't necessarily a fan so that kinda sucks sometimes.

>> No.6605682

>a fan of a show (implying they watch it)
>someone who researches but doesn't watch it

Your question is...the answer...its obvious.

>> No.6605701

>>6605682
In the grand scheme of things. If two people achieve the same results but through different means does that mean that one is more of a fan over another?

>> No.6605705

No one fucking cares.

>> No.6605707

>>6605701
If one watches and the other is just a researcher then yes. One is the bigger fan because they watched the show.
Are you here to play the devils advocate?

>> No.6605775

>>6605707
Kinda.

We always ralley up the crusade of the "fake nerd" and how people got mad at them for knowing nothing about the source material. With that said, can you still be considered fake if you take the amount of time to know a good amount of details of who and what you're cosplaying despite not experiencing the original series?

>> No.6605781

>>6605775
Yeah. Reading a wiki about a book doesn't put you on the same level of someone who has.

>> No.6605782

>>6605775
Is reading a bunch of reviews about a movie and a synopsis the same as watching it?

>> No.6605790

>>6605782
>>6605781
This makes me wonder too. I mean sure there's nothing like the raw experience of getting the knowledge from the source material but if you know enough as someone who has seen the movie and even the discussion and values of the work, does it matter?

I would equate this to say reading a history book

>> No.6605793

>>6605790
It's not a history topic, it's a fictional character and series. Learning facts is not the same was as appreciating it as a form of media, or story, or art.

It doesn't matter how many fucking books you read about Inception if you've never seen the movie. It is supposed to be watched. You cannot be a fan of Inception if you haven't even seen the goddamn movie. That's like saying you're a fan of Destiny's Child without ever having heard their music.

>> No.6605805

Do you guys know anyone who does what OP is talking about?

>> No.6605825

Let me ask a question as well, could you consider someone a fan if they haven't read the book but like the movie its based on?

>> No.6605844

There's no benefit to knowing about anime. The only benefit is if you enjoy it. Seriously, pretending to be a nerd has got to be one of the least rewarding things a person can do with their time. Just find a different hobby you actually enjoy.

>> No.6605853

>>6605825
Of course. They are two separate works. They couldn't be a fan of the book, but the could certainly be a fan of the film.

>> No.6605863

I think the question here is has the researcher watched the show? If they have and they have enjoyed it, then there's no difference. But if they only read about it on the internet, then it's not really the same level of fandom.

>> No.6605977

I'll admit to this. I can't get into the Touhou games. Not even close. I'm not good at them, I don't enjoy them, no matter how much I try. But I research the characters, read the mangas, indulge myself in the fandom, follow fanworks and writings, and know the story. I also play some of the parody fanmade games with different gameplay but the same characters. I consider myself a Touhou fan, even though I know at my core I am not. I've cosplayed from Touhou, and I know my people back to front.

>> No.6606080

What if you watch walk-throughs and gameplay for a game, read books related to the characters, watch the anime connected to it, and read all the wikis on it, but you haven't actually played the game?

>> No.6606092
File: 5 KB, 274x242, and now we wait.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
6606092

Watch as this turns into an argument of watching the anime adaptation versus reading the actual manga.

>> No.6606546

>>6606080

Perhaps the degrees of fandom are different as >>6605863 said.

I will be cosplaying from FFX soon, but I've never played that game. The reason I chose the character, was because everyone in my FF group chose the characters from other games that I liked or looked similar to. To do the cosplay well, I've read the wiki about her, watched all the cutscenes with her, read the dialogues with her, and gathered all the screenshots and artwork that I could find. Though I do enjoy her design and personality, I wouldn't consider myself a hardcore fan because I don't want to play the game.

>> No.6606558

>>6605775
Well, then that calls this into question. What about those who do both? I watch the show and do my research on characters (if I'm interested to know more) . I don't expect everyone to do the same as me though.

>>6605805
I think OP is trying to touch base on what makes a true fan. I truly don't care if someone is a "true fan" or not. Because lets face it, the only people who are doing that are butthurt nerds who are upset about everyone who picks up a DS claming to be a nerd. This goes onto those who didnt really watch the show/read the book and instead researched their materials in order for them to SEEM like they did.
This is an assumption though.

>> No.6606587

>>6606092
It's a good question.

I mean we get mad at people who stay ignorant of the series, how about those who aren't real fans but know a lot about the facts in the show

>> No.6606590
File: 95 KB, 571x605, tumblr_mhq1uxI11M1rb4jbpo1_1280.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
6606590

>this thread

>> No.6606589

>>6605977
>>6606546
Eh. If I was a big fan of either of those and you told me that at a con while you cosplayed as said characters, my reaction would be mostly internal. I'd still ask to take your picture, but not as enthusiastically. My smile would also lose a few molars, but I'd try to keep it up just so I don't seem offensive.

>> No.6606591

>>6606546
I don't get it. Why not just play the fucking game? Why do all the research and waste your time watching scenes and not just PLAY THE GODDAMN GAME?

I've done costumes for friends before, but I sat myself down and either read or watched or played the series and if I liked it- I went through with it. Is it really so hard to do that? I just don't get you people.


And yes, people will look down on you and think you're an asshat if you tell them you 'researched' the character to dress as them and didn't even play the game.

It's like going to music festival dressed as specific musician, and telling people who are fans that you don't actually listen to their music- you've just read about them and know some lyrics.

WHY?

>> No.6606592

>>6606546
Also, you're doing Lulu, aren't you? Just a guess, as her appearance does have dat appeal.

>> No.6606599

I'm probably not going to notice either way. Still, I assume fans would have more fun than the researchers. You can get excited, and you'll enjoy discussion that come up more. You'll be able to express how you felt when some major event happened in ways a researchy type couldn't.

So, it would make no difference to me, but a lot to you.

>> No.6606598

>>6606591
Maybe because RPGs are notoriously long and its a lot harder to commit to a huge game especially when it comes to con crunch time.

Shouldn't you be happy that at least this person is doing the proper research instead of going "oh wow I luuuuuv Final Fantasy X"

>> No.6606601

>>6606591
I truly believe in "Cosplay Whoever You Want" as long as "Judge Whoever You Want" is also in effect. And no, I don't believe a woman was "asking for it" when she dresses like a whore and gets raped.

>> No.6606603

>>6606598
>notoriously long

No? Takes a couple of hours to finish one and since console gaming has made them easier to beat.

>con crunch time

Why would you go to a con if you have no clue about the character?

> doing the proper research

They should play/read/watch the series and choose a character that they enjoy?

>> No.6606605

>>6606598
The time commitment to making the costume is quite a few hours, no? Why not spend as long playing the game?

>> No.6606611

>>6606591
>>6606603
>>6606605

>>The reason I chose the character, was because everyone in my FF group chose the characters from other games that I liked or looked similar to.

I'm pretty sure she's just filling out a group for the sake of her friends. Sometimes if you want more bodies in your group, you can't always pick and choose the hardcore fans.

>> No.6606612

>>6606603
>A few hours

I clocked in nearly 100 hours on my FFX save file. I don't think that's "a few hours"

>> No.6606618

>>6606612
Either you were dicking around (like my urge to fill the board in FFXII) or you suck at it. Or Seymour.

>> No.6606620

>>6606611

Force them into specific characters or just let them in regular clothing.


>>6606612
>FFX

Typical Japanese oriented RPG? Popular with gamur gurls

>> No.6606624

>>6606611
People making gigantic groups for the sake of having them are cancer. Not only do they always look like shit, it always ends in drama because no one has any real love or attachment for what they're doing.

No matter how skinny and pretty you are, your costume will never look as nice and you'll never look as right as someone who generally loves the series and character and does a good job to represent that.

>> No.6606631

>>6606624
Loving the series does not translate to costume making skills.

Think of all those people who do really badass comissions for characters they are not familiar with a first hand basis. Maybe the cosplayer doesn't love the series but they love making costumes and take pride in their work to make sure they don't look like shit. If they take the time to not only make an accurate outfit but also do the proper research on the character's poses, mannerisims and quirks then I see no problem

>> No.6606638

>>6606624
Tell that to those fucking TF2 cosplayers that think they look coordinated when half of them are closet("No, but I like Portal"). I can't tell which pictures are legit groups, and which ones are "hey all the [x] cosplayers get in this picture!" anymore.

>> No.6606641

>>6606631
Going through all that effort and not just watching/reading/playing the source material is retarded.

The only thing more embarrassing than dressing up as a fictional character is dressing up as one you're not even a fan of.

It doesn't matter how many wikis you read, and how many 'quirks' you memorize the second someone finds out you put that much time and money into dressing up from a series you couldn't be assed to play they'll think you're a stupid attentionwhore.

There is also a difference in wearing a costume when you are passionate vs. when you are not. As a photographer I can tell through posing, expression and simple passion and enjoyment whether the model actually loves who they are being and aren't just wearing some fancy clothes.

People who simply mimic characters tend to look bland clotheshorses next to people who have an attachment and love for what they are doing.

>> No.6606642

>>6606631
>Loving the series does not translate to costume making skills.
>implying not having a genuine interest more often than not doesn't a shitty cosplay make

>> No.6606654

>>6606642
>Implying its impossible to have a genuine interest in the costume making process.

I think people are missing some certain points about how much of a series does one need to injust.

Sometimes people are cosplaying as characters from long established series. Say you cosplayed someone from One Piece who appears in episode 255, is it really necesary to watch all previous episodes of the show or can you just get the general storyline then start watching the arc where your character is introduced.

Hell, there are times when you want to cosplay as a side character and that even knowing everything about what happened previously has no impact to what your'e doing now. That eccentric side character is going to still be the same even if you know all the backstories and what happened before you met them

>> No.6606655

Assuming both costumes are the same quality (bad or good), then it's better to be a fan.

Assuming the fan's costume is worse, then for photos and competition I'd say the better costume is superior.

I think for photoshoots and competitions then having a good costume and being able to portray the character is important, so it doesn't matter if you are a fan or you just researched the role. However, if you're going to an event and going to group meet ups at events, then it's much better to be a fan because it's always nice to be able to share your love of something with other people who enjoy it too and it's really obvious if you are a fan of the show/character when you talk to someone about it.

>> No.6606674

>>6606654
I agree with the first, since it implies you actually did watch the series at least. The second part I'm not so sure what you mean.

>> No.6606673

>>6606624
>No matter how skinny and pretty you are, your costume will never look as nice and you'll never look as right as someone who generally loves the series and character and does a good job to represent that.

How many people do you know who have actually played Granado Espada?

There are plenty of gorgeous costumes from it, but the game itself is some garbage Korean MMO, so literally nobody cares about playing it. It doesn't degrade their costume skills at all.

If it's just some two-dimensional character, or a character class from an RPG where they all look the same, who cares? The character is wooden and dead anyway.

>> No.6606686

>>6606673
Those are more designs than characters, which are different. The people in them still just look like people in a cool costume, not a character.

>> No.6606690

>>6606673
Oh no. Costume making skill is a different matter altogether. I'd rather be the hardcore fan that commissions a great cosplay, than the Worbla Wizard who doesn't know Judges from Paladin raid gear.

>> No.6606694

>>6606674
I mean like if it's an MMO/RPG and it's a character class (Knight, Rogue, whatever) where the "character" has no substance; they're just carbon copies of each other for the sake of playing the game. There's no real "character" for you to portray.

>> No.6606704

>>6606694
the allure of getting the "omg it's X from obscureY that I thought I only played omg please hump me" eyes is still there.

>post-apoc 2013
>implying character/game "substance"=love for said character/game
>i shigeru

>> No.6606720

>>6606598
Exactly. I want to know more about Persona 4 than Hiimdaisy made fun of, especially if my friends want to make a cosplay group in the future, but god damn that game is long and I hear the anime isn't that good. If I just read a lets play or something it at least gives me time to catch up on all the others shows I need to watch.

>> No.6606723

>>6606704
why do you care tho

all I'm hearing is "you're not allowed to get attention unless I say you deserve it, plebs"

>> No.6606728

>>6606720
As a fellow P4 cosplayer I would appreciate if you kept your cancerous ass out of my fandom. If I see one more faggot cosplaying because of LOLHIIMDAISY!!1 who hasn't even played the game I'm going to scream. They ruin meet-ups, have no idea what they are talking about and always look like crap.

How is a lets play less time than going through the game yourself? You're still going through the whole game...

>> No.6606729

>>6606723
>attention

that's all you fuckers care about. its not about the attention, its about being a literal fake-fan for the sake of it. I would prefer 500 shitty cosplayers in terrible outfits who loved what they're doing than one of you.

>> No.6606733

>>6606728
- Able to multitask (watch the lets play while working on cosplay)
-Can skip ahead during dungeon grinds and get to cutscenes and boss fights
-No penalty for death as the LPer either won't die or you can easily skip ahead

>> No.6606738

>>6606729
If I took the time to make a good outfit, took the time to properly research the character, took the time to properly understand the mannerisims and character dynamics, then how the fuck are my efforts are fake.

A fake fan is someone who buys an Ebay costume and showsup. Not someone who puts in a lot of time and effort in getting the character right. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if I put more effort into what I'm doing than some of the "real fans"

>> No.6606745

>>6606738

Think of it this way.

Someone spends a lot of time and money working on a Princess Leia costume. They read about the movies and learn her quirks and quotes.

They go to the convention and meet up with other Star Wars fans. There is another Princess Leia there who has watched the movies and loves them.

"Which is your favourite movie?"

You: "I haven't watched any, but I researched them to make this outfit!"

Her: "I love Princess Leia, A New Hope was my favourite!"

You can't say these are the same level of fan. One is just a costumer who picked a Star Wars outfit. The other is a fan.

>> No.6606750

>>6606728
A good text LP you can read far faster than you can play

Video LP is gonna take nearly as long as actually playing and is stupid unless the LPer is actually adding something worthwhile (most don't)

I actually read the Policenauts LP because it went into how much work making the translation patch was even though I had played through it entirely first

>> No.6606752

>>6606738
thats not a fan

thats just someone who puts a lot of effort into pretending to be one for some stupid reason

>> No.6606753

>>6605541
>Assuming the fan and the researcher have the same level of knowledge and trivia, would it matter?

Why doesn't the researcher just watch/play instead of reading some articles? They might actually end up liking it. This goes for people who are "filling in" as characters too. If your friends like the show why wouldn't you? The only "excuse" would be if there was a language barrier because something was not translated. I dont really care either way if a person is a fan or not but it just seems silly not to give something you are interested in a chance.

>> No.6606763

>>6606723
wait what? i was replying to >>6606694 , about how "good" the character is doesn't always equal the love it gets from a fan. misclick?

>> No.6606768

I don't think I can tell anyway what to wear or why. what I don't get is why people who refuse to watch, play or read the medium get so upset when you don't consider them a fan. they're not. that's fine, but whats with all the bitching and moping about how they should be seen as one?

If you haven't played persona 4 or watcher Berserk I'm not going to consider you a P4 or Berserk fan. you're just someone dressing up from the series, which you have every right to do. however I will be more impressed and happy with someone I can actually talk about those series with who actually has an investment in them.

who would you rather talk about opera with. someone who listens and watches it and has a passion for it or someone who has read a few books and memorized terms? they might be able to understand what you're talking about but they're not someone who loves it or will even go out of their way to experience it... just my two cents.

>> No.6606773

>>6606733
>>6606750
I will admit to not knowing your exact reasons, but it really does just sound like you liked the look of that character and did research just in case you get questioned. That's all cool if you will admit to not being on the same level(of fan, not cosplaying abilities) as even the closet cosplayers who have played the game and fell in love with the character through knowing what said character did or experienced.

>> No.6606787

I've had friends peer pressured into cosplaying characters, but they make sure to first watch the show and become a fan. What's the damned point of cosplaying something you're not a fan of? Yeah yeah.. fortune and glory.. Still. It's pretty dumb to spend all that time and effort to cosplay something you don't love.

>> No.6606818

>>6606728
>want to know more about Persona 4 than Hiimdaisy made fun of
> if...cosplay group in the future
For someone who played through a whole Atlus game you sure can't read very well. I'd hate to see your blood pressure around the P4 Arena fans.

>>6606733
Yup. I'd have a guide for completionism anyways so it's just cutting out the middle man and preventing any reloads whenever FUCKING DICE BLOW UP right before I'm about to save Yukiko. I'll pay my time and entry fees when it comes to a fandom but if it's a 100 hour turn based JRPG I'm going to be smart about it.

>> No.6606955

You can read wikis, watch walkthroughs and do all the research you want, but you will never understand a game until you have played it. You'll make every single female look stupid by bandwagoning and attention whoring.

>> No.6606970

When I see a fat girl cosplay, it's like "She must really love that show/game to dress up like that." When I see some really... conventionally wowza hot chick cosplaying, I get this bad feeling in the pit of my stomach thinking she probably doesn't know the character as well as most fans of the show/game.

I don't ever get to the truth of the matter, since there seems to be 10m radius of 'you can't even' around them that I can't seem to cross. I seem to be more beta than creeptographers.

>implying I know for sure the fat girl loves the series she's cosplaying. You know, because they got a lot of love to give.

>> No.6606978

>>6605541
There is a huge difference, but at this stage, I don't think it really impacts the cosplay or the cosplayer.

Both the fan and the researcher understand who their cosplaying, have knowledge of how to best portray that character and hopefully interact with other characters. And many times they become more interested in their projects for it.

>> No.6606981

I'm not sure about there being different levels of knowledge, but there would obviously be a huge difference in passion.

Someone who is actually a fan will be much more enthusiastic and will likely go out of their way to be part of that subject's community.

So, I would say the only thing that is affected by being a fan or not is the social aspect, be it in cosplay or otherwise; and since most cosplayers cosplay at conventions (which are social gatherings, for the most part) I think it's an important difference.

But I'm not implying one is better than the other.

>> No.6606980

>>6606978
but then your nerd dick isnt as big as everyone elses.

>> No.6606983

I'm just going to throw this out here:

Dangan Ronpa.

Unless you speak Japanese, you "played" it by reading a let's play and watching cutscenes and gameplay. And it's already shaping up to be a cosplay fad. What are your thoughts on this?

>> No.6606991

>>6606983
The same thoughts I have when seeing (attractive) girls cosplaying obscure service heavy visual novels that don't have an anime/manga.

>dafuq?

>> No.6606999

>>6606983
wannabeliters. I don't believe chicks who Hatsune Miku actually Vocaloid. But I guess if you like the fanshat songs...

>> No.6607000

As someone who has done both, YES. At least in anecdotal experience, I have found a big difference. When I cosplay something that I like the design of, and I've done some research, I am much less invested in the cosplay than ones I cosplay from that are part of a series I absolutely love. Both are fun, I like making both, but there is something different (almost hard to explain honestly) about making a character from a series you adore.

>> No.6607022

>>6606983
Well, Dangan Ronpa is primarily a visual novel that doesn't do much in terms of plot divergence? It's one route. I've read the story on somethingawful and it's not a tl;dr version - it's the dialogue line-by-line translated. It is just a different medium/format to experience the story, in my opinion.

>> No.6607046

>>6607022
Agreed. Generally speaking, the only difference between watching an LP of a visual novel and "playing" it yourself is whether or not you have it installed on your computer. It's basically the same experience since it's not exactly gameplay-oriented... it's like a digital graphic novel with some choose-your-own-adventure elements.

>> No.6607197

>>6606818
>P4A fans
>HURR WHO THE FUCK COULD THAT GUY IN THE ENDING POSSIBLY BE

>anyone who has played P2 facepalms

>> No.6607305

>>6606999
>I don't believe chicks who Hatsune Miku actually Vocaloid.

W... what?

>> No.6607331

>>6607197
>>6606818

Licensed fighters are always an exception mainly because people are more concerned with how a character plays as opposed to who they are. Look at Marvel vs Capcom 2, do you honestly think that there are that many Storm, Magneto, Cable and Sentinal fans out there?

Really people can like P4A and not care for Persona, if they like the mechanics and fithing system.

>> No.6607452

>>6607331

Lol at you thinking there aren't Magneto fans.

>> No.6607497

>>6607452
There are but not in the ratio of you see Magneto players

>> No.6607504

>>6607331
the problem is when they haven't played P4 and are trying to discuss the story

>> No.6607533

>>6607305
I believe he means that they don't use the program/voice bank to develop music.

>> No.6607588

>>6607533
That's exactly what I meant. I feel like cosplaying a human habanero pepper now.

>> No.6607604
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6607604

>>6607588
Do it.

>> No.6607600

>>6606983
It's so silly but this has been happening forever, there's no stopping it. Remember Animal Magnetism?

>> No.6607608

>>6607604
I understand, but I was thinking about something else.

>> No.6607642
File: 27 KB, 378x353, 1346393508789.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
6607642

no1curr.

Cosplay is not a super secret clubhouse for the nerdiest of nerds where you'll finally be accepted for what you truly are. It's a hobby. A weird hobby, but a hobby nonetheless. Who cares about the reasons behind someone dressing up like a fucking Chinese cartoon character and playing make-believe?

>> No.6608960

Do you think there's a difference between an English major and someone who reads SparkNotes for all the great works of literature?

Sure, you can pass the tests, but not the interviews, so someone else will get the job.

>> No.6608966
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6608966

>>6607608
Closer?

>> No.6608977
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6608977

>>6607600
Remember that fake anime that people on /cgl/ were trying to trick people into cosplaying?

>> No.6608980
File: 30 KB, 150x150, 1298944842959.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
6608980

>>6608960
>jobs
>English major

>> No.6608983

>>6608980
Hey now, every poor school needs a desperate English teacher.

>> No.6608986

>>6608977
Can't Get Love? I still tell people that's what I'm cosplaying when I'm in lolita and they ask.

>> No.6608995

ITT: People who think that the neutral language of wikipedia can give you as good a feel for a character as the original context.

Saying "Hank is a known workaholic who "sells propane and propane accessories" as an assistant manager at the fictional Strickland Propane, a local propane dealership." is very different from seeing his dedication in action. From that description, he could be a character on The Office. You need the original context, it's a game changer.

>> No.6609011

>>6608995
That's why you watch a few episodes or clips such as "Best of Hank, "Funny Hank moments" etc.

>> No.6609013

>>6609011
that's just pathetic. watch the show you miserable creature.

>> No.6609020

>>6609013
Because I would need to watch all six seasons of King of the Hill in order to understand how to play/dress up as Hank.

>> No.6609022

>>6609020
Actually, yeah, you would. If you're just reading from a wiki article and watching clips, you're not seeing how he interacts with other people, so you don't know his character.

>> No.6609023
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6609023

>>6608986
Yes! Shit, I just remembered this, I'm glad someone kept Can't Get Love alive.

>> No.6609027

>>6609020
But why would you WANT to if you weren't even a fan of the show?

>> No.6609112

>>6609020
Six? There's 13 seasons. And they're all gold.

>> No.6609249

>>6609027
Herein lies the issue. Some people will choose to judge other cosplayers based on their specific knowledge sets concerning a series when the judged individual hasn't experienced the same amount of exposure to the judging's chosen media. People take away a wide spectrum of different things from media, and sometimes it doesn't overlap with other fans' opinions.

The fact that everyone has their own personal reasons behind cosplays needs to be taken into account as well. Some chick in her mid twenties who is really into Sailor Moon will probably choose to do one of the costumes from the musicals while a fourteen year old who has heard all the hype about the new season will choose to do a shitty Sailor Mars after watching some of the first season, quitting(the dub was admittedly bad, take off your rose-colored glasses, ladies), and reading the manga instead.

It's all pretty much a "I'm better than you" competition.

>> No.6613502

i think the researcher would have more knowledge of the show because they read about things other people may or may have not picked up on when watching the show.i was a fan of tenchi muyo back in the day and enjoyed watching it when i was 10 or whatever. i had no clue what was happening 90% of the time. i just learned that all of his harem is distantly related to him.

didnt read the thread but everyone will probably say in terms of knowledge:

otaku>researcher>casual fan>whore cosplaying a popular or slutty character

>> No.6613597

OP, your post gave me cancer.

The very concept that people 'research' shows instead of watching them just makes me puke.

>> No.6613625
File: 140 KB, 499x330, 1332871763042.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
6613625

>>6613597
this.