/cgl/ - Cosplay & EGL

you don't need to censor pedo, this is 4chan not tiktok. kek

>>10880922
i know but still hate saying it honestly

Taken your meds today, anon?

Is this just a thread where you vent or are you expecting to turn this into a discussion about the name or something else? I don't think we'll be getting any new insights about the name or come up with a solution.

If it's going go be changed it's going to be done by the Japanese. This year a different spelling has become more common, but it's ultimately still lolita.

>>10880928
valid haha

>>10880929
i do like some actual discussion since i feel like i am going crazy when nonas claim that the Japanese didn't know anything about the connotation they just thought it was a cute word, when that claim not only has no credible source but also makes no logical sense since the name was coined the same period that lolita complex was culturally relevant in japan so they must have known of the connotations

https://i1.wp.com/www.rainedragon.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/04/uSyXXxu-561x1024.jpeg?strip=info&w=1402&ssl=1

pic related are actual ap releases from their first years

>>10880921
How does that reflect on your daily life? If some normie ask me about what I'm wearing I just say it's a Japanese street fashion, or that I'm a goth, which works in my case. The only situation where I use the word Lolita is amongst other lolitas, so I have never had any issue with the name itself. The sexualization happens whether I'm wearing baby clothes or a nun habit, ao there's really no escape in this fucked up society. It's not the name of the fashion that will change the disrespectful way man gaze at us.

>>10880934
The way westerners claim up and down lolita fashion didn't get its name from the book never fails to make me lol. It did and that's okay, it doesn't mean the fashion is about that. Japanese lolitas actually love the book, it's weird. Iirc Misako even posed for an indie magazine with those tell-tale red sunglasses not long ago.

Just get over it honestly. Who cares about the name when we have actual pedos being welcomed into the community?

>>10880951
>actual pedos being welcomed
Grim but true, if the average western lolita can't even catch the obvious red flags from bumbling balding sissies in their comms, there's no way they'll catch that Lolita is about the charismatic deception of a predator and not the "love story" that the unreliable narrator presents upfront. If they actually read it instead of just seething at the title, they'd probably be completely captivated by HH.

The name is great and should never change, I'd hate it being sanitized to make people comfortable or make it easier for normies to understand

>>10880934
CGL is not the place you're going to find answers imo. There's a group on fb called "egl research center" and one of the most recurring topics is the origin of the name, trying to figure out the sequence of events that lead to that being the name that became widely used. They have some great insights and they back it up with materials.

The one and only thing that should matter imo is that lolita fashion isn't trying to emulate any fashion worn by the characters in the book, lolita fashion isn't trying to attract pedos or any other men, lolita fashion isn't a kink or fetish thing, and lolita fashion isn't about trying to make yourself look like a child. These are all the things people accuse us of.

The thing that will give you the most peace is to simply not use the term lolita around non lolitas. If someone asks what it is called that you are wearing the safest explanation is "gothic" (for gothic lolita), "vintage (for classic lolita) and "just a mish mash of alternative fashion and historical fashion" (for sweet lolita). It helps if you also don't mention Japan.

>>10880994
nayrt but I’ve never had any problems calling it “a Japanese fashion from Harajuku” most people have vaguely heard of harajuku and associate it with weird clothes

>>10881127
Ayrt, I've read about many lolitas negative experiences regarding this, and I have my own as well.
When I explained it was a Japanese fashion (to my brother) he told me I shouldn't be wearing it since I'm not Japanese.
Lately I've read some lolitas get accused of "cultural appropriation" which is absolutely ridiculous. Other reactions other lolitas have shared: 1: "maybe this looks good on tiny Japanese girls, not on you. You're not Japanese so just wear normal clothes" 2: "Japanese girls have a dollish face so it doesn't look bad on them, you're a healthy robust farmer's daughter so you look like a clown when you wear it", 3: "so you're one of those girls who tries to be Japanese?", 4: "what's wrong with fashion you can buy here? Why do you have to be something you're not?" 5: "so it's cosplay, why do you pretend it's not" 6: "you know what we did with land traitors? We shot them " .

>>10881158
Have you tried just not caring about the opinions of other random people? How they care about a fashion or a name is of no concern to you.
What you're listing are worst case scenarios from people who will never understand lolita fashion nor do they want to. Hit em with a "well that's just like your opinion man" or ignore and move on.

>>10881158
honest question to everyone who has had this experience: do people really say stuff like this to your face, or is it just over the internet or secondhand things you've heard (ie, "my grandma told my mom she doesn't like when i wear lolita" sort of thing.) i genuinely cannot imagine someone being so rude to my face about my clothes.

>>10881161
The only person that’s given me genuine shit over lolita has been my mom. Every other relative, friend, acquaintance, etc has either been supportive or said nothing. She never said anything like >>10881158 though, only that if people saw me wearing it they’d think I’m insane and homeless(?)

For me it's mostly people asking what it's called because they want to buy it too, but even if I give them only the brand name I know that when they go to the brand site they will see the name of the fashion. That's very well and all for people I'll never see again, but some are people at places I frequent but am not friends with, so it's not like I'm going to give them a heart-to-heart lecture in the middle of the grocery store saying this fashion name did come from the book/movie but is totally not degenerate. I wish so much it was called Alice style because that would be so much easier for westerners to comprehend, but there's always those people coming out of the woodwork to say that calling it something different in another country would be appropriation; whenever I hear this stupid defense, I assume it's because they lowkey do like the association. Any sane person would understand if you said this word is heavily associated with cp in my country so we call it something different here.

>>10881159
Ayrt, I think you misunderstood. I'm explaining why I wouldn't mention japan if someone asked me what I'm wearing. It's easier and I don't feel like I'm responsible to educate these people. If they're genuinely interested they'll find out about it themselves without my help.
If someone asks me what I'm wearing I will answer in a way that keeps the conversation short, polite, and is as problem free as possible. That's why I don't mention Japan or lolita but I do use words that they're probably already familiar with such as gothic, vintage and historical fashion. A lot of people where I live haven't heard of harajuku and even if they did I would not bring it up.
When someone asks me what I'm wearing I don't think "awesome, it's my time to educate someone ". I don't want to talk about my clothes with non lolitas at all. It's a waste of time and I don't dress for them. Your reply was "just stop caring about what people think" but why would I even give random people ammo in the first place? If I can avoid annoying situations, then why would I say things that might result in annoying situations?

>>10881162
Same for me, except my mom loves it. Her only initial concern was that it was some Japanese pedo shit because she thinks of them as a bunch of creeps that like schoolgirls.

My biggest challenge in telling people about lolita is just showing them that it's a fashion for women, not fetish shit for men. Definitely depends on the outfit, too.

where do you guys live that you're getting these downright unhinged reactions? I've spent time in small cities in both the Midwest and the South and people either say something nice or ignore it; I wear sweet usually and classic to church. Most people don't ask but the ones that do are usually satisfied by "it's a Japanese fashion style." Very few people pry about the details.
Maybe people give me a pass for being weird because I look foreign? The only person who's been unsavory about it is my ex who consistently associated it with lolicon and just didn't like it very much.
The most surprising reaction is when I heard my mom's friend ask her if I was a lolita and she said yes, even though I've never shared the term with her.

>>10881164
Kek if you actually wore it regularly and told people about it, you'd realize virtually no one talks about "cultural appropriation" IRL and a shockingly high number of people know about harajuku fashion. It was a big deal about a decade or so ago. Also lolita is very obviously Western clothing so only a retard would think it was appropriation by anyone other than the Japanese. But I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, you sound like you're in high school and that you're surrounded by a bunch of competitively woke kids, so maybe your problem is that you just gotta tell older people and not your zoomer friends

>>10881161
ayrt, iirc most of the stories I've heard from lolitas that said they were accused of cultural appropriation was by people online. Only one was irl. As for the other scenarios, that all happened irl and direct (face to face) if I remember correctly. A few happened to my local comm members, which makes sense to me because we live in a country in europe where the public are known for being opinionated assholes. I've heard similar accounts from people in neigboring countries (all western europe).

I personally got very lucky. My mother had never heard of lolita (the book and movies) so she had no negative associations. But she wasn't happy I wore alternative fashion at all, she tried to discourage me from wearing it because she knew people would be assholes about it. She was right. But I'm old enough and have enough experience to be able to avoid and navigate difficult situations regarding public reactions towards lolita now.
My mother is now very supportive of my hobby, she asks about it, likes seeing the items, likes seeing my outfits, has opinions about them. If she likes something (which is most of the time) she'll talk about how beautiful the details and materials are, if she doesn't like an outfit or a design she says "well, this is special". lol.

>>10881162
>insane and homeless(?)

That's a weird assumption, lol.

My father never said anything about it, my brother is a pest who likes to tease me about it and he thinks I'm too naive and that I don't understand that lolita fashion is a sex thing. My mother tried to discourage me from wearing it but didn't make any comments about how it looks on me or my body. She just said it was a waste of money, "who the heck even wears this?" etc. I've been wearing lolita regularly, at some point even daily, for over a decade so people around me have accepted that it's not just a phase.

>>10881167
my brother still thinks it's fetish fashion meant to appeal to men, and that I am too naive to understand it. I barely see him, just 4 or 5 times a year, so I make sure to wear t-shirts and jeans around him.

>>10881168
The UK, Netherlands, Germany, Belgium, France, Spain, Italy, etc. Iirc it was a girl from a local comm whose grandfather called her a land traitor for liking something from japan. Absolutely unhinged.

>>10881169
>Kek if you actually wore it regularly and told people about it, you'd realize virtually no one talks about "cultural appropriation" IRL

Happens mostly online I assume. But I've heard of it happening irl too. Don't underestimate how SJW and terminally online some randos that you meet in public can be. A lot of people aged 15~25 take terms and beliefs they learned online into the real world.

Many boomers and gen x where I live have not heard of harajuku. It's not just younger people who ask me what I'm wearing.

>>10881172
>grandfather called her a land traitor for liking something from japan
that's insane, my grandmother has a vendetta against Japan but she doesn't sperg about products made by the Japanese. It's not like lolita is something nationalistic.

>>10881172
Your brother is retarded

>>10881180
to be fair she was probably one of those girls who wishes she was japanese, still doesn't excuse what her grandfather said. She was 19 and had a japanese boyfriend who came to meets with us and wore ouji. I don't think her grandfather knew about that otherwise he probably would have had a stroke.

>>10881183
yep

>>10881188
For all that people assume lolita is a fetish thing I find that it's really uncommon for men to seem especially into lolita. At best they say they are but mean some sexed up cosplay shit or age-play shit that doesn't reflect what the actual fashion looks like. I'm sure there's some out there but lolita seems remarkably unsexy to most men ime, even degenerates

>>10881190
I agree. People who assume it's a sex thing might be going off the name alone plus that it's weird. I've never had that reaction if I didn't mention the name and japan.

>>10881194
NAYRT.
my family (mainly rural, christian texans) actually assumed it was intended to be a "conservative" fashion (meaning "modest" or "old fashioned" not in a political sense) and went totally nuts for it-- some have even sent me vintage accessories as gifts. i'm not sure if any of them know the official name of it (i've mostly referred to it as "EGL" and "a japanese fashion that focuses on feminine elegance"), but i think if you told them it was a fetish they'd be deeply confused.

i guess i could see certain prints (ie, dreamy baby room, or sweet prints with heavily kiddish elements) could be misconstrued by millennial/gen z age people as being some melanie martinez thing (it didn't help that she wore lolita a few times), but IME old people just assume you're "bringing back old school feminine fashion".

speaking of appealing to men: while men my age seem to hate it, old men LOVE lolita, or at least seem to love classic. i'm always getting (actually polite, nonsexual) complements on my outfits by older men. usually stuff like "young lady, your outfit is lovely," etc. probably reminds them of their youth or something. which, honestly, is probably about as benign as male attention gets, so i can live with that.

have also had older men and women assume i'm just dressed up for church.

Go back to tiktok, zoomer. This fashion isn't for you.

>>10881274
I don’t understand why you would think the person who made this is from tik tok. If you’re not convinced they’ve been a lolita for 10+ years, many lolitas complain about the name even today when the fashion is more recognized then ever. I doubt your actually a lolita if you’ve never had a bad experience with the name.

>>10881163
>> calling it something different in another country would be appropriation; whenever I hear this stupid defense, I assume it's because they lowkey do like the association.

Why do so many lolitas think this way? Stop trying to stray away from lolita fashions origins, this fashions name isn’t ours to change as foreigners. Despite if lolita was originally intended to be for fetish purposes, this isn’t how the Japanese today see the fashion and hasn’t been for at least 20 years. I’m not saying that wearing lolita is cultural appropriation, but trying to change something that you can’t fully comprehend as a complete foreigner is stupid.

>>10881314
>Despite if lolita was originally intended to be for fetish purposes
It wasn't

>>10881394
nta but some of these ap pics >>10880934 https://www.rainedragon.com/lolita-history-pretty/
looked like a fetish shout

>>10881399
Some ambiguously fetishy shots existing in early shots is not the same as the fashion being "originally intended for fetish purposes" at all though.

>>10881314
all I'm hearing is that the sanctity of the Japanese language means more to you than cp

>>10881435
I mean I'd hope so yeah

>>10881399
One Pretty photoshoot is proof enough for you to dismiss the whole of the fashion's beginnings? But all the others ones in the article and all other ones we know of not from the article aren't proof enough of the opposite? Yeah right.

>>10881314
1. you're retarded
>Despite if lolita was originally intended to be for fetish purposes
2. the name was given by outsiders, there is no reason not to change it

>>10881437
please kys.

>>10881525
Reread the wording on your post

>>10881161
My mom told me I was trying to attract older men/pedos with the fashion when I was 14, and still insists I'm trying to be Japanese/a schoolgirl 10 years later.

>>10881538
Nayrt, and this sadly isn't a super uncommon response from family members.

>>10881194
The only people I've seen claim its a sex pedo thing are kids from instagram and twitter (maybe tiktok too but I'm not on there so idk), mostly cringe animu zoomers who think lolita = loli and think the book is pro pedo

>>10881544
I wish that were the case for me. I made the mistake early on by telling my brother what it was called and he told me it's a sex/kink thing. I told him it wasn't and he laughed at me and called me stupid and naive. He isn't open to hearing or reading anything that proves it isn't, he simply won't listen to me so I stopped bringing it up and won't wear lolita around him for the few times per year that I see him.

I also made the mistake (a long time ago) by telling one of my colleagues at my old work. She was trying to get to know me and wanted to know what I did for a hobby. After I told her the name of the fashion and that it was frilly and took inspiration from historical fashion she asked to see some pictures. I showed her. She went "ooooh, sexy" and gave me a smile that signaled "my secret was safe with her". She wasn't trying to be a jerk about it, in fact she was trying to be nice and not "judge me for my kink/fetish". She is a nice person, I immediately told her it isn't anything sexual or kinky, and she apologized for assuming it was. She said she thought it was roleplay sex costumes. The pictures she saw were me in old school btssb and meta, very frumpy, very standard cookie cutter outfits, no costumey elements. Later on she called the old Early summer chocolate strawberry parfait OP "a pretty dirndl" (traditional wear from certain german regions).

>>10881194
Only person I've had an issue with was a middle-aged man who was a straight-up misogynist who thought the same thing about other alternative fashions as well. I assume he was just unable to comprehend women wearing clothes for any other reason than to be attractive to men. He also pressured me to drink and made several inappropriate comments directed at me (underage at the time, which he knew) so just a garbage person overall. His opinion matters not.

>>10880954
It's a story about retards and their dysfunctional attempt at a relationship, /r9k/ meets /r9k/. Nothing more, nothing less. Not CWC tier tarded, but the main characters are still spastic as fuck.

>>10881713
Nabokov is rolling in his grave

>>10881702
holy fuck stop posting this. how underage are you? you sound 16 mentally.

guy here, when did the gothic Lolita fashion ever become some fetish thing? Aside from the name which is dubious at best I always associated it more with women into vintage/porciline dolls or interest into Victorian fashion. I would consider this to be the Japanese interpretation of vic style.

Then again retarded kids and zoomers are so brain rotted these days I'm not surprised they saw something on twitter/tiktok and instantly made the connection to "pedos" because they have the attention span of paramecium.

>>10881749
>guy here
no one cares.

>>10880951
>Japanese lolitas actually love the book, it's weird.
Because the japanese version doesn't make it obvious that it's a case of unreliable narrator and the book is seen as feminist masterpiece because for once the girl is seducing the old man and not the other way around over it.

>>10881749
You could ask the same about gothic in general and why everyone wants a big tiddy goth gf as they are seen as fetish objects.

>>10881765
Except when most men say they want a goth gf what they mean is someone who wears fishnets and e-girl makeup and is not actually invested in the subculture. Not disagreeing btw.

I’ve been wearing lolita for 10 years and I just tell randos on the street that I’m wearing “Japanese street fashion from Harajuku” and then keep walking and continue with my day. Most randos don’t even care enough to ask follow up questions. You don’t have to make things complicated. People judge normally-dressed women for their normal clothes anyway - either you have too much makeup, a Karen haircut, your short skirt makes you look like a slut, etc. If normies want to think you’re dressed as a clown, Strawberry Shortcake, or a sexy baby doll, who cares?

>>10881767
you're describing fetishization. boiling something down to whatever aesthetics you can sexualise and ignoring any aspects of culture/subculture or the people behind those aesthetics is literally what fetishization means in this context.

>>10881764
no it's not, it's because the book is admonishing pedos, which japan has a problem with. the entire book is dolores being groomed and it's very obviously a negative look on it, especially given nabokov was sexually assaulted. many japanese lolitas don't want to deal with men or have their purity sexualized. the book is actually quite fitting for the fashion, it's just that in the west idiots think that mentioning a theme means that you're supporting it, even though critical thinking skills say otherwise. lolita complex aka lolicon means having an attraction to young girls, not young girls having an attraction to you. there's also some evidence the name was used to describe the broken and sullied innocence that the fashion originally was. if you're just reading the wiki page on it, no wonder you don't know anything, it cites lolicon as a positive term rather than just the japanese word for pedo.

>>10881774
i was under the impression normies finding lolita weird, offputting, and distasteful was kind of the point.

it's not a fetish, but i do think caring as much as some of the anons in this thread do about normie opinions on lolita is kind of defeating the purpose of lolita.

>>10881786
it's because westerners are allergic to reading anything that isn't a comic, fan fiction, or a YA novel.

>>10881764
It's so weird how people think Japanese are like these strange innocent forest creatures that don't understand things like we do.

>>10881793
anon is referencing this wiki article which is a fucking mess of misinformation and western ideas about japanese culture.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lolita_(term)

>>10881744

I'm just explaining why I don't use the word lolita anymore around people who aren't lolitas with real world examples.
The anon(s) here >>10881159 and here >>10881169 obviously did not get the point.

>>10881788
I don't want people I see often (family, coworkers, friends) thinking I have a fetish when I am not. If I'm approached by people I don't or barely know about what I'm wearing then I choose to handle that interaction in a way that is polite, quick and unlikely to have negative consequences. For me that means not mentioning lolita, japan, harajuku, street fashion. I use terms people are more likely to know and don't carry much (if any) negative associations. We don't have to educate/inform the public about lolita (when they ask) at the cost of our own comfort.

>>10881523
We can’t change the fashions name, not because we don’t want to but more because we’ve already gone years and years calling this fashion “lolita” that changing it now would be confusing for newcomers. And if we were to change the name, we as a community can’t decide on a name anyway so what’s the point on even trying?

>>10881435
This is just sick, why would anyone think a lolita would even begin to think this way? Are you actually retarded?

One thing I like doing when men ask me if it's a fetish thing (sadly has happened too many times) is I'll look really confused and ask them to explain what they meant. Act like you have no idea how it could be perceived as sexual and seem horrified that they'd say such a thing to someone. It makes a lot of dudes just shut down and stumble away. Similar vibes to asking people to explain the punchline to misogynistic jokes.

>>10881442
>>10881394
We don’t know lolita fashions origins completely, so everything said here is also complete speculation. But if we get enough evidence to prove that it did start off as a fetish, my point still stands that this isn’t how lolita’s view the fashion today and should stay that way, It shouldn’t become a gateway for even more fetishists to invade this fashion.

Another thing we should take into account is that in the beginning years of the fashion (90s to early 2000s) a lot of the fashion pieces were made in kid sizes (110 - 160) we see this today in mezzo piano photoshoots usually to promote a fetish although not everyone that wears mezzo piano is a fetishist, this could be the exact same case for lolita fashion and the people that fetishized it stopped participating in the early 2000s.

>>10881844
Lolita fashion origin isn't that mysterious, it definitely didn't start off as a fetish. I don't even know why you're suggesting that as a possibility.

>>10881786
>no it's not
That's what Misako Aoki said regarding the book tho as for why she recommends it.

>>10881849
If you can prove the fashion didn’t start off as a fetish, then I’m completely willing to read what you have to say plus complete details and evidence to prove it. I just throw the possibility in the air because of how little details we have on lolita before the 2000s. After looking through the 1995 magazine this AP photo >>10880934 was featured in there isn’t anything inherently sexual but some photos (specifically from AP) definitely projects weird vibes for sure.

>>10881786
>if you're just reading the wiki page on it, no wonder you don't know anything, it cites lolicon as a positive term rather than just the japanese word for pedo.
Which I didn't, the info is straight up from GLB.

>>10881786
>it's because the book is admonishing pedos
Have you even read the japanese version of the book because it surely doesn't.

>>10881786
>it's because the book is admonishing pedos
Have you even read the japanese version of the book because it surely doesn't.
>>10881804
I'm not, don't self-project.

>>10881786
>>10881804
>if you're just reading the wiki page on it, no wonder you don't know anything, it cites lolicon as a positive term rather than just the japanese word for pedo.
Which I didn't, the info is straight up from GLB. Don't self-project what you do onto others.
>>10881786
>it's because the book is admonishing pedos
Have you even read the japanese version of the book because it surely doesn't.

>>10881786
even novala states the same as >>10881764 in his novel 'patchwork'
>>10881793
doesn't change that bad translations are a thing, most japanese adaptions of foreign novels from before the 00s aren't 1:1 the same as the original, same the other way around

t. someone who had to read some of them in school

>>10881857
You'd have to prove that it did start off as a fetish, I feel like you don't get how extreme of a claim that is. The burden of proof is on you for that. I wonder what you thing a "fetish fashion" is exactly.

And well I'd leave the details to someone who's looked more into this than me but lolita is a few decades old it's not ancient pre-history that we have no records of. Some clothing brands started making some clothes that were cute and feminine, people got into it, a fashion scene grew from there. Some old photoshoots from AP giving a "weird vibe" doesn't even come close to being evidence for that claim by itself.

>>10881868
Novala really shouldn't be your benchmark of what's a normal take in Japanese culture

>>10881841
>look really confused and ask them to explain what they meant.

I love this. I might try this.

>>10881844
>>10881849
>>10881857


None of the material from japanese publications we have between 1970 and 2000, before and after lolita fashion was called lolita, suggest that the fashion was or is supposed to be a fetish or that it is common for lolitas themselves to treat it as such. The brand Shirley Temple still exists, evidence for fetish? No. These kids sized clothing back then was for parents who wanted their children to wear frilly clothes. It was advertised as such. If you're going to say that adult women bought those clothes for themselves for fetish purposes, then we don't have any proof suggesting that. If it were common you would think there would be some mention of that in all of the interviews and articles from people in the community before the 2000s.

>>10881857
can you prove there's a teapot hiding behind the moon?
You get my point, it's difficult to prove something doesn't exist when it doesn't exist. All I can say is that if it was true, then we'd have some materials of people talking about it from the source. We don't. Vibes are nothing to go off and can easily be misinterpreted by someone who is not from that time and not in that direct environment.

>>10881868
I'm not going to argue about the novel or the way it was received.
I'm going to say that Novala Takemoto is not a good source for any of this. He is a professional nutcase and a degenerate who doesn't even have widespread acceptance by japanese lolitas then and now.
He has written a handful of material on lolita fashion, some fictional, some talking about the irl comm and lolita culture which he himself has never been proven to be a part of. I don't know if the original version of the Shimotsuma Monogatari book also includes it (I think it's crazy for a translator to decide to add it in, so I think it's more likely it was in the original) but he includes a line about Momoko getting off on lolita fashion. He also paints her as a selfish and a bit of a degenerate, she would do anything for lolita if she thinks it's justified and acceptable for her to do.
The movie left some of the more unsavory things out.

He's also written more than one piece suggesting he has an opinion of how lolitas should be, and talks about purity more than once. He even wrote something similar to "lolitas 10 commandments/rules to live by" where he describes how lolitas should live their lives. Even if it's fictional it's creepy and doesn't treat lolitas as human beings but as perfect dolls. A woman in the community would not have written it. People have suggested that he has a fetish himself and is making fetish material for himself, so he can self insert.

>>10881886
NAYRT. fully agree but also wanted to add: a lot of child size lolita clothing (ie, shirley temple) existed specifically so mothers and daughters could have matching outfits. ETC and affiliated brands, axes femme, and some other brands still do this.

so yeah, it wasn't for "fetish" reasons, it was for family bonding.

>>10881903
That sounds so cute

>>10881905
it's adorable! some taobao brands also do kids sizes, picrel. could also twin with a younger sibling!

>>10881888
When does she get off on it? I didn't see that at all in the book

>>10881913
page 47.
Some people have even said he was trolling the lolita community with that part because he ultimately doesn't respect actual lolitas and their reasons for wearing the fashion. Like we've been saying for decades that lolita fashion is not a kink/sex thing, but then Novala goes "heehee, lets make the lolita main character get sexually aroused by lolita fashion". Others say he is simply projecting his own personal sexual interest in lolita fashion and he simply doesn't care that the lolita comm in general doesn't see lolita that way.

>>10881914
Was the “it’s a kink” debate ever a big thing in Japan though? I don’t think it typically has that perception there at all.

>>10881917
I have read some japanese blogs that mentioned that it was (maybe not anymore) a common misconception that it was a sex/kink thing. Another thing that japanese lolitas have written about was that people asked "why are you dressing like a child?". I've read enough japanese blogs about the struggles of japanese lolitas with the general public and their perception and misconceptions about lolita that I think the idea that lolita is generally accepted in japan is just westerner's wishful thinking.
Japanese people might not harass lolitas on the street as much as in some other countries, but that doesn't mean they accept lolita. That is probably just a cultural difference because there are countries where people are more likely to actually approach a stranger.
A UK lolita who went to live in japan told me "in the UK it's very much possible that someone will walk up to you and pick a fight or shout abuse, but in Japan if they think you dress like a freak they're more likely to mumble something under their breath as they walk past you".

>>10881914
What does it say? Don't have the book on me right now

>>10881918
Yeah I don’t think it’s acceptable, just in Japan people have a slightly less inaccurate idea of what it is due to pop culture, compared to the west where they’ve often never seen lolita before

>>10881920
it's a whole page where she describes how btssb gets her all hot. Kinda gross imo. I'm not going to type it out.

>>10881921
I think that's a good way of describing the difference.

>>10880921
OP's pic is a rare example of a non cringe print

>>10881924
nigga wtf are you on about? have you never even seen classic prints before? they're all non-cringe and subtle like this.

>>10881820
you've explained it 5 times itt and no one cares about your retard brother. there's nothing more we can say to you about it.

>>10881861
>the info is straight up from GLB
Bitch where? You sound like you're larping.

>>10881975
yeah, I know, so?

from the rococo 1 history of gosuloli article circa 2004

>>10882006
google translated

>>10881841
This is the way.

>>10881983
Jfc it's not about the brother. It's a warning about what can happen if you use the word lolita around people who aren't lolitas. I wasn't fishing for sympathy or pity with that anecdote, that was not why I mentioned it. There's too many people who think you should continue to mention the word lolita around non lolitas and then deal with the consequences (which is dumb, because you can avoid that), and too many people dismissing possible consequences ("this doesn't really happen", "where do you live where this happens?" "This is an extreme example" etc). There's countries in Europe where people are very rude and opinionated. This is where that happens. Just because you don't live there doesn't mean those things dont happen. Do you expect us to move? Just not using certain terms around non lolitas is much easier and cheaper than leaving the fucking country.

>>10882013
can you shut up? you definitely are underage.

>>10882013
Considering the consequence is just your brother being an annoying retard it doesn’t actually sound that severe desu

>>10882006
>>10882007
I've been telling people this for years.

>>10882006
I would take that little bit of text with a grain of salt. "Frilly medieval dresses"? The author of this article clearly doesn't know about lolita fashion primary inspiration, which is rococo, victorian and to a lesser extent edwardian. We see medieval elements in the fashion rarely. "Dressing like a child" no child wears what lolitas wear unless the child is wearing lolita fashion. In the eras that lolita fashion takes inspiration from children were dressed like miniature adults. The only difference was the length of the dress (and sometimes not even that). The association with "French dolls" is because porcelain dolls nearly always wear clothes that are supposed to resemble historical fashion. Lolitas don't dress like dolls, some people just think we do because the clothes of porcelain dolls are inspired by the same eras of historical fashion that lolita fashion takes inspiration from.
I have no problem with the idea that lolita fashion got its name from the book. There's evidence to support that the fashion was named that by outsiders, and that lolitas adopted the use of the name. Japanese lolitas over the years have gotten a lot of flack for using the name, so they were pretty adamant that "this lolita is not the same as other uses of the term, don't lump us in with lolicon. Lolita fashion is not about sex or about attracting men".
Just because it's in a publication aimed at lolitas doesn't mean it's accurate. The author's understanding of lolita fashion is incredibly lacking. I don't expect everyone who works on a magazine such as this to know a lot about lolita fashion, they can't get experts for everything. They have pages to fill, it only has to be entertaining and somewhat accurate. So of course they get some things wrong sometimes. If we want to know about lolita fashion we should read stuff written by people who own lolita brands and by people we know have been lolitas for a long time.

>>10882010
>>10881841
i think this works for 80% of cases, but you WILL get that one weirdo who will spell it out for you and then you'll be subjected to his nastiness.

>>10882015
You have no argument.

>>10882028
You're taking a Google translated paragraph way too seriously. Machine translations always have some clunky words in them.

Four page article incase anyone speaks Japanese

https://archive.org/details/rococo1/page/n89/mode/1up?view=theater

>>10882016
The other anecdote was about a coworker who thought lolita fashion was "sex costumes". That could have ended much worse if she wasn't a nice person, for example she could have told my other coworkers I was into some kink hobby. That plus the situation with the brother was enough for me to stop using the term around non lolitas. I have had no issues since I stopped using the term. I have heard much worse situations. For example someone's family being against it and badgering them over it during any contact with the family. Her family thought it was a kink thing, she printed out a page that described what lolita was but they didn't believe it. Family relations are still strained years later. You could argue that the family was never going to accept her fashion, but there's a good chance this could have been avoided or reduced if she never mentioned lolita. I know that some people don't like it when others wear alternative fashion, but it's on another level to assume it's a kink.

If you would have just used your brain you could have understood that quite severe things do happen as a result of the "lolita=kink" misconception, and you would not have needed me to spoonfeed you. Or did you just want to be a cunt?

>>10882031
I used both Google and DeepL, both had the exact same points (frilly medieval dresses, dressing like a child, French dolls). I doubt an accurate translation doesn't have those things in it. Usually DeepL has some differences in the translation compared to google translate, but this time they were almost exactly the same word for word.

i wish this part was more easily read since it refrences the movie

>>10882034
They are both still machine translations and are always going to be awkward, clunky, not know slang or terms, etc. Don't take machine translations as Bible text.

>>10880937
>sexualization happens whether I look like a female
Fixed for you.

>>10882034
>>10882028h
You’re really nitpicking this paragraph for no reason. The only problem word I’m there was medieval, and I’d assume that it’s just the author knowing it’s based on old times European clothes but not knowing shit about historical periods. And lolita isn’t something children wear but it passes some resemblance to what was worn by them in the past and there’s a reason people associate the aesthetic with children. The wording is also more like “it’s not simply about dressing as a child”, it’s not strongly asserting that it is about dressing as a child at all, more seems to be using the lolita definitions about young girls as a transition point to clarify it’s not especially related. The defiant doesn’t seem to be provided to say that lolita fashion is related to lolita complex at all, it just seems to be giving context on the word neutrally.

French doll is obviously alluding to the rococo influence. Also lolita definitely has a doll aesthetic/ association even if westerners don’t like this due to that “living doll” cringe catastrophe. Japanese lolitas aren’t as cagey about the doll thing as westerners, I’ve heard Misako talk about “wanting to look like a doll” several times when she talks about lolita fashion.

>>10882034
>>10882028
You’re really nitpicking this paragraph for no reason. The only problem word in there was medieval, and I’d assume that it’s just the author knowing it’s based on old times European clothes but not knowing shit about historical periods. And lolita isn’t something children wear but it passes some resemblance to what was worn by them in the past and there’s a reason people associate the aesthetic with children. The wording is also more like “it’s not simply about dressing as a child”, it’s not strongly asserting that it is about dressing as a child at all, more seems to be using the lolita definitions about young girls as a transition point to clarify it’s not especially related. The definition doesn’t seem to be provided to say that lolita fashion is related to lolita complex at all, it just seems to be giving context on the word neutrally.

French doll is obviously alluding to the rococo influence. Also lolita definitely has a doll aesthetic/ association even if westerners don’t like this due to that “living doll” cringe catastrophe. Japanese lolitas aren’t as cagey about the doll thing as westerners, I’ve heard Misako talk about “wanting to look like a doll” several times when she talks about lolita fashion.

>>10882036
Are you going to learn japanese and translate it for us?

>>10882043
if the author is ignorant about the sources that lolita fashion takes inspiration from you can't trust them to be fully informed on lolita fashion in general.

If someone tells me they think I look or dress like a doll I wouldn't take that as an insult. I simply explained why the association exists between lolita fashion and dolls, and between lolita fashion and "dressing like a child" in the first place.

>>10882048
Don't really think the writers they hire for the book named "Gothic & Lolita Bible" are going to be ignorant on lolita fashion

>>10882048
The association isn't purely external though. Not everyone does but a lot of lolitas definitely do consider themselves as trying to dress like dolls.

its not just the name femcel y'all be out here literally dressing like little ass girls and shit. get some help

>>10882043
I wonder if "medieval" is simply a mistranslation because this is far from the first time I've seen a Japanese person use that term in reference to lolita.

>>10882066
It's not, but they might use the term a lot more loosely than we do.

>>10882028
中世 - Chuusei
While the direct translation is medieval, when the the term is used in relation to traditional European dress, it also encompasses dresses from the rococo period. Image example is a blog post about 18th century fashion that references it as medieval European dress. The Kyoto Costume Institute uses the same term when discussing an 18th century dress. Not all cultures will use the same terminology to refer the same things.

From Misako’s Lolita Fashion Book. Quick google translate:
"Lolita" (1962 UK)

A film adaptation of the novel of the same name, which is the origin of the name of Lolita fashion.

A film adaptation of Vladimir Nabokov's novel of the same name, written by himself. This controversial work depicts a middle-aged man's love for a 12-year-old girl. "Lolita" in the title is the girl's nickname. This is the origin of the names Lolita fashion and Lolita complex / "Lolita" Blu-ray (2,381 yen + tax) DVD (1,429 yen + tax) Now on sale Sold by Warner Home Video

>>10882037
You're spot on, thanks nonna

>>10882033
Jesus no one cares. Don't you understand that?

>>10882072
japanese speaker here, the term chuusei is kind of a catchall for pre-modern times. in japanese context it refers to the period between ancient japan and the beginning of edo period, so in western context it's used to describe the middle ages. but it's also used to describe times after the middle ages up until the industrial age in europe and americas. the term is kind of confusing since japanese is so contextual. also i am trying to translate some of the linked scans but some pages are hard to read. i may have them done tomorrow.

>>10882089
nta but did you read the rococo vol 1 2004 article?

>>10881888
>>10881920
After a shop girl recognizes her based on her clothes matching her online purchases:

"This made me incredibly happy, and besides giving me the illusion that I had become ultra-VIP, it also felt like having someone I'd always had a crush on suddenly tell me they're in love with me too. I was simply ecstatic.

After this, my feelings for Baby were unstoppable, growing boundlessly greater than ever before. I mean to say, really... who could blame me? And so, ever since, I couldn't stand letting a single week go by without making that fearful journey, that all day expedition, out to Daikanyama. It's all your fault, Baby, the Stars Shine Bright. You're the one who made me unable to live without you. Just thinking about you makes me - ohh, I don't care if they call me a hussy - tremble inside, ahh, it makes my body go hot all over. Before I know it, my body's aching for you and I just can't hold myself back. Mmm, see? Just thinking about you is getting me all wet. Ohh, ahh, yes! But there's no going back now. I'm yours, Baby. Do anything you want with me! I want you, I need you, give it to me, Baby! Oh, I can't bear it! (Whoops. What am I writing? If I write stuff like this, I'll never get chosen as a pure and innocent Mitsui Renhouse girl.)"

(cont)

>>10882111
While it was some time since I last read the book, I always interpreted this as an obvious joke. Momoko's voice is very edgy, jokey, referential, immature and teenage-like. She often makes rude comments and jokes. Making jokes like these among close friends (or to yourself in this case) isn't all that unusual and doesn't reflect your actual feelings. It's like a more extreme version of "I can't live without it! We were meant to be together! It's so cute I wanna marry it!", "I'll have you, one day we will be together", and "That print! Words cannot describe this overwhelming feeling. I can't decide whether to get the dress or to tattoo it on my body!" from old Shit Lolitas Say videos.

I thought it was joking about Momoko being giddy and ecstatic over clothes and the recognition of a shop girl instead of things like love and relationships like a girl is expected to. How she doesn't match the expectation. Like, most people have made a sexual joke. I understand why we are sensitive to them because we're afraid of sexualization, but we are just normal people at the end of the day. Just because someone makes a sexual joke doesn't mean the entire fashion is sexual or started out that way or that Novala Takemoto thinks that way.

I've only read some of his stuff, but most of his writing seems fantastical and escapism, not meant literally. I mean, I've also seen him respond to fans telling him they don't need friends, only lolita and that they want to be the perfect lolita with how that isn't a good idea, and that while lolita is nice escapism it's not everything and friends are important. Momoko is kindof this way. Only cares about lolita, doesn't need friends. But it's a coming of age book where she learns and outgrows those attitudes. She still loves lolita at the end, but has also made a friend and grown to care about more than just clothes. And her supposedly getting turned on by lolita isn't something continuously getting brought up, it's a one off joke.

>>10882111
>>10882112
Yeah I agree, this is clearly a joke, and the joke is about loving something so intensely that you compare it to sexual attraction, not something about lolita being hot or fetishy in itself. You could swap of bttsb for anything here and it’d be the same joke.

lmao you dumb bitches are willingly dressing in weird pedo bait fashion and are in denial about it

tldr

>>10882111
This is obvious hyperbole and only retards like >>10881888 would be stupid enough to take it at face value

>>10882111
This is obviously a joke. What kind of retard would take this seriously kek

>>10882189
zoomers don't know how to read or do critical analysis anymore, they just take everything at face value regardless of context or subtext. especially if a shallow or bad faith interpretation happens to fall in line with whatever rage fuel agenda they're addicted to. apparently there's studies on this

>>10882111
don't even try to reason with the retards whiteknighting novala. half of the popular moids in alt jfashion, not just lolita, who deliberately try to become public figures are creeps and constantly swing their egos around, and autistic pickme women still flock towards them because male

The only way to change the name is to just stop calling it that. Call it something else and tag that. Who cares if it's cringe it's not more cringe than Lolita.

Not to mention calling it Lolita just confuses censors and allows actual pedos to hide in the term.

>>10882049
Are you really going to take everything printed in lolita publications as 100% accurate and true?

>>10882061
the doll thing isn't a hill I'm willing to die on. If some lolitas like to think of themselves as dressing like dolls that's fine with me.

>>10882072
this makes a lot more sense

>>10882088
OP did, plenty of people in this thread did. You don't care about stuff that isn't happening to you, so you pretend it doesn't exist.

>>10882112
That's one way of viewing it and I'm not going to say it's wrong. There are many interpretations of the book. On the other hand hating Novala and his works isn't exactly rare among lolitas because enough lolitas did think his works were creepy. This also started way before zoomers even entered the fashion. A lot of people just like to defend Novala because of the movie.
None of the scenes that lolitas complained about ended up in the finished movie btw.

I recently reread the first part of the book and momoko does joke a lot, but she jokes about things that she wishes weren't happening. For example she hates living in the rural area she lives in and tells the reader the inhabitants are eating onions sauce stewed locusts and bamboo leaf wrapped rice balls. And that every injury, including broken bones, is treated with the same herbal medicine. She's trying to point out that she's living in a very old fashioned area with lots of unrefined people. Every crazy scenario that she uses to make a point is followed up with "no, that's (another) lie". She is however very honest when talking about her love for lolita fashion and is speaking from the heart. I took her sexual lines about lolita fashion as exaggeration, but not hyperbole.

One thing that I think not a lot of people have picked up on is that momoko is lewd and trashy deep down. She shares traits with the yankis she despises. It is in contrast to lolita fashion. She daydreams about rococo (which she also loves for its lewdness and debauchery) as a way to escape. She tries her best to become more refined because it's not what she naturally was. But a lot of people seem to interpret momoko as some perfect lolita from the get go. Another common interpretation is that she and ichigo have a lesbian relationship. They claim it's obvious if you just read between the lines.

>>10882219
>onions
onions sauce

>>10882220
oh great, it's another one of those.

onions= s o y sauce.

>>10882219
You can definitely find Novala creepy but I think its clear that it was a joke and what the joke was, whether you find it funny or think it's gross and in poor taste

>>10882223
>I think its clear that it was a joke
you're allowed to think it is a joke just as other people are allowed to think there was some truth in it.

>>10882227
Anyone is obviously allowed to think whatever they want, doesn't make them right. I don't see how it's not a joke or meant to be read as silly and irreverent, your only arguments against it being a joke are that most other jokes aren't the same kind of joke, and that Momoko is "lewd and trashy deep down" (which imo supports the joke reading if anything).

>>10882229
>Anyone is obviously allowed to think whatever they want, doesn't make them right.

that's how I feel about people claiming that momoko and ichigo have a lesbian relationship and that shimotsuma monogatari is full of gay subtext (if you say you don't think they are anything else than friends will get you accused of homophobia because people these days), I don't agree with them but I can't say they're wrong and they can't prove that they're right either. Reading the way she talks about btssb as having some truth to it shouldn't be dismissed as a rare interpretation even if you think it's wrong. I guess we're all retards then because there are always people who think our interpretation of the book is wrong.

>>10882231
Well what do you mean by having some truth? I mean the truth is that Momoko is incredibly obsessed and infatuated with bttsb, but if you think we’re meant to believe she’s touching herself to bttsb then I really don’t think so.

>>10882239
it's up to interpretation, that's the point.

>>10882219
>>10882231
Making a queer reading is very easy in this case. I'm not gonna tell straight people they can't read them as just friends, or that it 'doesn't make them right but they're allowed to think what they want'. They're different readings and can both be substantiated by the text.

You come off as dismissive of other interpretations, despite trying to come off as not. You didn't back up your puritan and hyper-literal interpretation enough with the text, and thus it wasn't popular. Womp womp. No one said you aren't allowed to have a different interpretation, people just didn't agree. You say she acknowledges her own jokes, yet in the quoted passage, she does it there too. You say she's kindof trashy, yet thinks it out of character for her to make a trashy joke. I think you were uncomfortable with a sexual joke being made in the context of lolita. I think you're right to feel that way and to not like the book.

I also don't think it's some hidden knowledge that Momoko isn't a perfect lolita. One of her most popular quotes is about how rotten she is. Even if most people have only seen the movie, it's in there too. I talked about it in my analysis you responded to. It's the whole point of the book, that she's a kid in a shitty situation using escapism and shutting herself off from others. She grows and learns because it is a bildungsroman. People haven't missed this, they're just jealous of her wardrobe.

You say her being trashy reflects Novala's poor view of lolitas, but also that he thinks we should be perfect angels. Which is it? I don't think your reading of one passage is enough to completely dismiss his input. Should we be skeptical? Yes. Is he perfect uwu desu? No. Like I said, I'm not a fan of his stuff for the most part. He writing is chuunibyou and he has a strong ideology. He often reassures readers they're fine as they are. I think Kamikaze Girls is his more realistic response to that. That you can be a lolita, but still grow up.

>>10882241
In theory sure but you have to be able to justify that interpretation or else it's retarded nonsense

>>10882252
if the people defending a queer reading of the novel have no proof then why am I expected to prove mine? I don't think there is proof either way, hence why I said it's up to interpretation. I can't point to anything in the book that shows they're wrong, they can't point to anything in the book that shows they're right. No-one defending the idea that they're lesbians has ever come up with specific parts of the text to back it up when asked. The responses were always "it's obvious" "read between the lines" "it's all over the subtext" "you're just homophobic so you don't want to see it".
I'm not straight btw, and don't consider myself homophobic. I think there's a good chance that people wanting to read it as queer are the same people who take fictional characters who aren't defined as queer but they ship them as gay if you know what I mean. This doesn't upset me in any way, but I'm asking why friendship is so often seen as inferior to a sexual/romantic relationship. Why do they have to be in a romantic/sexual relationship?

>>10882251
>You didn't back up your puritan and hyper-literal interpretation enough with the text,

I wouldn't really consider myself puritan, but I did see the movie before I read the book and I was a bit grossed out about the sexual lines (whether they are meant to be taken literally or not).
People didn't just disagree with me though, they said I was wrong. Why do I have to back my view up when they're not asked to?

>You say she acknowledges her own jokes, yet in the quoted passage, she does it there too

I don't think she does. I don't interpret her last line to mean "take everything I said before this as a joke".

>you say she's kindof trashy, yet thinks it out of character for her to make a trashy joke.

Trashy as in she is rotten on the inside, which she acknowledges, and which we can see by her lying to her father to get funds for example. I don't thinks she ever jokes about sex (I might be wrong, I need to reread the second part of the book again).

>You say her being trashy reflects Novala's poor view of lolitas

I didn't say that. I think him putting in those sexual lines was kind of a big middle finger to all of the lolitas who have been saying for decades that lolita fashion isn't about sex or kink.

He can do that and also write a piece on how lolitas should be. Go and (re)read that piece, I'm curious to hear what you think of it.

>>10882254
You brought up the queer reading thing out of nowhere and it had nothing to do with the original conversation, get over it already.

>>10882256
>I didn't say that. I think him putting in those sexual lines was kind of a big middle finger to all of the lolitas who have been saying for decades that lolita fashion isn't about sex or kink.
Even if you imagine that the line literally is her having a fetish for bttsb, it's literally just about the brand. Nothing specific about the clothes, nothing about the act of dressing in lolita or it's aesthetic being sexually exciting for some reason, it's just "I love this brand so much I want to fuck it". It's crass sure but I don't see how you could ever see it as a commentary on whether or not lolita fashion itself is a fetish. You could replace every mention of baby with a normie luxury fashion brand and nothing about the joke would change.

>>10882256
>I wouldn't really consider myself puritan [...] I was a bit grossed out about the sexual lines (whether they are meant to be taken literally or not).
If someone mentioning sex or making a sex joke is enough to gross you out and convince yourself someone is a pervert, you're a puritan.

>People [...] said I was wrong. Why do I have to back my view up when they're not asked to?
You were the one making claims about Novala's writing, as well as him as a person. When you claim someone is a fetischist, people will expect you to back it up. Same for when you claim someone writes a character 'getting off on lolita fashion'. If you make claims as proof for why we should dismiss a more time appropriate source, you need to back them up.

>I don't interpret her last line to mean "take everything I said before this as a joke".
Well, pretty much everyone else here did. Again, it seems you just got hung up on sex being mentioned in relation to lolita and froze up. We are people, people are sexual sometimes, it's not a big deal, and it doesn't mean the person making the joke views the fashion as sexual/a fetish.

>I don't thinks she ever jokes about sex (I might be wrong, I need to reread the second part of the book again)
Yet you acknowledge that in the very beginning of the book 'She daydreams about rococo (which she also loves for its lewdness and debauchery)'? Again, it's not really about sex or the fashion being sexual. It's about being selfish, caring about your own desires and wants over following convention. That's what makes her rotten. That's also what she loves about rococo, the sex is just a strong symbol of that part of rococo's ideology. She's not actually daydreaming about sex itself, she only occasionally jokes about it as plenty of teenage girls do.

>>10882304
(cont)
>I didn't say that. I think him putting in those sexual lines was kind of a big middle finger to all of the lolitas who have been saying for decades that lolita fashion isn't about sex or kink.
So you do think that. You do think him putting that in reflects how he views lolitas, that is, negatively.

>He can do that and also write a piece on how lolitas should be. Go and (re)read that piece, I'm curious to hear what you think of it. (He even wrote something similar to "lolitas 10 commandments/rules to live by")
Well you never said what exact piece you meant. After some googling, I found 'Rules on the Lolita' and 'Let's Learn the 'Maiden's Way' from Mr. Novala Takemoto'. Both are very wishy-washy about giving any rules on how lolitas should be. General ideas about finding what being a lolita/maiden means to you. That you shouldn't follow conventions just because, not just wear lolita because it's popular, not care about the judgement of others, that you should find your own style, explore your interests and skills, that you should be intelligent and curious, that you should define your own view of happiness and how to live your own life. Doesn't seem that bad to me. Kindof cringe and chuunibyou, but I wouldn't say that makes it the worst thing in the world or perverted. I'm guessing this isn't the piece you meant, because these didn't seem too bad. I agree though that he has written some shitty stuff and bad advice, and that a man isn't in the place to tell young girls what to do. I also despise 'purity' bullshit. I of course despise perverts fetishizing our fashion. But again, I don't think you've made a good enough case that he's a pervert and everything he says should be disregarded. Sure, we shouldn't take him at face value as the only source, I agree with that. But as one piece of evidence among many, I really don't see the problem using his stuff as sources.

>>10882251
rare based CGL post. good analysis anon.

>lolita is asian fishing!!
>i know i'm japanese!
>weeb name
>posts extremely overly formal google translate japanese as proof
every fucking time

>>10882762
What?

>>10882231
As a movie watcher I always assumed we were all aware of the queer subtext being a stretch and were just having fun with it, but now I'm interested. Is there more to it in the book?

>>10882777
end of the book momoko says something like she wants to kiss or have sex with ichigo, which I think is about as true or realistic as her getting sexually aroused from BTSSB aka another boorish hyperbole teenagers often make about things