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/cgl/ - Cosplay & EGL

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10311952 No.10311952 [Reply] [Original]

What's so bad about treating lolita as cosplay? I remember how people were insisting on this definition back then to make others treat fashion seriously, but look at it now. Lolita is not a subculture anymore and people are not expected to compliment their frilly clothes with fitting hobbies. So why is it so wrong to consider lolita as some sort of event wear?

>> No.10311954

>>10311952
Imo there's nothing wrong with as long as you aren't ita, which a lot of cosplay lolitas are

>> No.10311956

event wear and costumes are different though. lolita can just be like ugly prom dresses or something, but it's not like a cosplay.

>> No.10311959

>>10311952
Personally I'm not part of a comm, I don't wear it at cons, lolita is my weekend clothes. And they're just clothes, I'm not dressed up as anything, so not cosplay. If people want to treat it as special event wear that's reasonable even if that's not true for me because for some people it is, but that's still not a costume any more than a fancy evening gown is a costume?

>> No.10311962

>>10311956
Look at these multylayer embroidered Trinity Blood costumes or Cinderella dresses with Swarowski crystals all around. I think they are far from cheap.

>> No.10311964

>>10311952
Idk, rubs me the wrong way that people treat my daily fashion like a costume. It’s been part of my life for coming up on a decade and it’s weird to see others treat it like some super novelty dress up game

>> No.10311967

>>10311952
Fashion isn’t a costume or event wear. Just because you don’t see a difference doesn’t mean there isn’t. It’s also is a sub culture, cgl is just full of role players who pretend now so you miss the actual community.

>> No.10311975

>>10311967
I like the design of lolita clothes, but I don't really like to come off as cute or/and feminine, so I'd like to separate them from my personality.

>> No.10311976

it's not a cosplay because it's not a character you ignoramus.
people wear more outlandish shit to the met gala and it's still fashion, because they are still themselves in those weird outfits.

>> No.10311978

>>10311952
Cosplay-lolitas are lazy cowards, that's why.

>> No.10311981

>>10311978
lol why?

>> No.10311986

>>10311962
i didn't say it was cheap? i meant the utility. you can wear lolita outside of a con, it's weird, yeah, but it's like goth, people wear it outside of cons.

>> No.10311988

>>10311981
nta but i agree with them, con lolitas are too worried about social convention to just do what they actually want.

>> No.10312043

>>10311964
Daily lolita smugness, huh. Separate your emotions from your clothes some.

>> No.10312046

>>10312043
this desu
if you wear it daily that's one thing but making it so connected to your identity you get weirded out or offended when others don't wear it the right way is unhealthy as fuck

>> No.10312056

>>10311952
Because a lot of people see it as their clothes.
>people are not expected to compliment their frilly clothes with fitting hobbies
This argument proves the opposite point. Because lolita fashion is just clothes, it doesn't matter what you do in them. You don't have to sit around pretending to be a certain character or perfect victorian lady. You can drink, swear, smoke, have sex, whatever you want. It's just garments covering your body. Turning it into a totally anachronistic reenactment of a nonexistent lifestyle is just LARPing.

I'd also like to know in what ways lolita fashion isn't a subculture anymore, because I don't think that's the case at all.

>> No.10312070

Costumes and cosplay by default are dressing up as somebody else. Assuming this, if you wear lolita as "cosplay", who are you dressing as? What character?

Unless you are specifically dressing as a character or a general newbie "I'm dressed as a gosurori!" sort of thing idg how this is still a discussion. No matter how silly a fashion looks it's not a costume. By definition.

>> No.10312075

>>10312046
nayrt but agreed. Lolitas who act like the fashion makes them special are pathetic and usually have no other personality other than being an elegant special princess uwu.

Fashion is a part of everyone's identity, but having a superiority complex about it is dumb. At the end of the day it is just clothes. You should find joy in wearing them, and if it's what you really love then cool. But if the only reason you like it is because it makes you feel above everyone else then that's just sad.

Others treating it as special occasion wear =/= treating it as cosplay, even if that special occasion is a con. Unless they're a character it's not cosplay. Either way, it's no reason to get your panties in a bunch.

>> No.10312081

>>10312043
Sorry you’re too insecure to be yourself all the time anon. Maybe get therapy.

>> No.10312102

>>10311952
>Lolita is not a subculture anymore
this is why people don't like coslitas

>> No.10312103

Not that I'm against them, per se, but as a lolita who has never gone to a con, I do find the concept of conlitas (as in, con-only lolitas, not lolitas who sometimes wear coords to cons) a little confusing. Like... if you enjoy it enough to drop hundreds of dollars on an outfit, why restrict yourself so heavily in when and where you wear it? It doesn't make sense to me.

>> No.10312106

>>10312103
I mean they almost never drop hundreds of dollars though. They always go for the cheapest shit from Wish or Amazon, or whatever cheap ""lolita"" made from Joann quilting cotton by someone who also knows nothing about it there at the con. Then they get the crap wig and whatever offbrand things they can find in local stores to coord it with.

So like. Idk why they bother at all???

>> No.10312107

>>10312106
I get the feeling a lot of those types have just given up on the idea that they can ever actually look good in lolita without even getting out the gate, so instead they play pretend in the most half-assed way possible for easy asspats at conventions.

>> No.10312116

>>10312043
There is no smug in their post

>> No.10312120

>>10312075
There is no superiority in OPs post, they just said they find it a bit weird and it is. It's like wearing goth only to halloween or smth. You lads sound really insecure.

>> No.10312177

>>10311976
fucking this right here. OP is either a cosplayer or a crossboarding larper.

>> No.10312179

>>10311952
I don't think people ever were expected to be "lifestyle Lolitas" unless they felt like it.

Anyway it's just different for different people. Some people prefer to only wear it OTT once a month for events. Some people wear it more simply and casually. In neither case is it cosplay, because no particular character is being presented.

>> No.10312180

>>10312043
GR8 B8 M8

>> No.10312189

>>10311952
>lolita is not a subculture anymore
Well, we won't be with that attitude. We were never considered a "subculture" to begin with by most lolitas, but I'd argue there's definitely a subculture around lolita, hence why you are facing this backlash. If we were truly just a bunch of girls that throw on dresses and meeting up, you wouldn't be facing pushback. We are trying to keep the way we do things for the future.

>> No.10312192

>>10311952
It’s bad because lolita is a costume or emulation of a character? You sound like someone who doesn’t wear the fashion or recognize the subculture around it, gtfo larper

>> No.10312193

>>10312192
*isn't a

I need to proofread more

>> No.10312200

I think instead of cosplay lolita should be treated like formal wear. I think its silly when anons here pretend like lolita is so practical and comfortable to wear 24/7 and if you aren't wearing it morning day and night you're a LARPing conlita.

As long as your coords are good it doesn't matter how often or where you wear it.

>> No.10312201

Lolita is literally clothes. Cosplay is dressing up as a character. I don’t understand why people still get this confused.

>> No.10312211

>>10312201
cosplayers think that everything you wear at cons is either cosplay or must be something you don't wear irl.

>> No.10312283

>>10312200
>I think its silly when anons here pretend like lolita is so practical and comfortable to wear 24/7
Maybe not always practical, but definitely just as comfortable as normie clothes. Sage for bait thread.

>> No.10312288

>>10311976
>>10312070
>>10312201
When wearing lolita I'm supposed to look like sorta cute victorian doll or elegant feminine lady, but in reality I'm mid-aged office clerk whose interests are fare from what lolita is supposed to be into. So from this point lolita is not costume, but it does not represent me as person eiher.

>> No.10312289

What does treating lolita as cosplay even mean, though? Do you skinwalk a popular lolita and copy her outfit- >great co-ord anon
>thanks, I'm fanny rosie from march 12th 2014

>> No.10312290 [DELETED] 

>>10312102
Theres a very very small margin of colitas that can pull it off. I’ve met one so far

>> No.10312291

>>10311952
Because it's womanchildren playing pretend, so they need to act elitist about lables so they can act all classy when they aren't.
>tfw lolita will never be like cosplay with people being praised for their sewing and craft skills rather than how much money they have to spend on brand

Feelsbad

>> No.10312294 [DELETED] 

>>10312291
>>tfw lolita will never be like cosplay with people being praised for their sewing and craft skills rather than how much money they have to spend on brand
That really depends on who your friends with. My friends and I sew our accessories and some dresses and we praise each other and give tips

>> No.10312297

Does anyone have the image of the cgl-tan twins saved? The one where cosplay-twin and lolita-twin are yelling at each other because each one is prioritizing complete opposites in their hobbies basically explains cosplay vs lolita in a nutshell.

>> No.10312305

>>10312297
http://shimmie.4chanhouse.org/index.php?q=/post/view/5504&search=cgl

>> No.10312306

>>10312288
How doesn't it represent you as a person? As romantic as lolita is for some people, you don't have to be anyone special or overly beautiful to wear it. If you wear it and you like it it represents you.

>> No.10312309 [DELETED] 

>>10312306
If you wear jeans do they represent you? No

>> No.10312314

>>10312309
Yes, they do. Your style is part of your appearance and how you represent yourself.

>> No.10312315

>>10312309
Actually I’m an Amurican so yes, jeans do represent me.

>> No.10312319

>>10312309
They do, yes. Anything you wear represents you in a way, even if you're just wearing sweatpants.

>> No.10312354

>>10312291
Someone doesn't know about the history of lolita. There are entire lolita sewing books.

>> No.10312355

>>10312200
>mfw sitting here in plain brown IW skirt, comfy cutsew shirt, clip-on bow and cotton knee socks
>mfw I have no face

Sooooo impractical and uncomfortable.

>> No.10312356

>>10312291
Sorry nobody likes your handmade crap anon. Any Lolitas who can actually make nice clothes always get a ton of compliments, and rightly so. They're just a tiny minority.

>> No.10312363

>>10312192
What subculture is there besides the fashion? To be a subculture something has to have norms, values, and maybe art or music associated with it. Lolita has no unifying culture at all besides clothes. Lolita honestly requires nothing more than quality, balance, and a certain sillhouette. Hardly deserves to be called a full-blown "subculture".

I love Lolita but it really is nothing more than just clothes, and maybe like a slightly weak feminist statement.

>> No.10312364

>>10312363
Maybe this isn't the strict definition, but I think you can call it a subculture as long as there is a meetup culture. People meet up solely to talk about the fashion and be with other enthusiasts, and although most Lolitas are in no way lifestylers, meetups are usually centred around "lifestyle appropriate" activities like high tea.

>> No.10312365

>>10312355
I’ve never understood the “lolita is uncomfortable” complaint. Maybe if you’re trying to wear shit that doesn’t fit? But I wear OTT sweet at least 3x a week, wig and all, and it’s never uncomfortable.

>> No.10312367

>>10312365
I can see it if you've got health problems, I suppose. For example, I'm migraine prone and I've come to accept that wigs simply aren't worth it for me. Equally, if you have gastric problems, even the mild constriction of a petticoat around the waist could cause discomfort, even if it's the correct size (my old Classical Puppets petti gave me some bad times back in the day and I have a 25 inch waist). For the average person, though, if it's uncomfortable you're probably doing it wrong.

>> No.10312374

>>10312367
All of what you said is easy to work around if you aren’t an actual genuine moron. Wigs aren’t a required part. KCs aren’t either, you could wear clip in bows.

>> No.10312375

>>10312374
Jesus some people just don't like wearing fancy poofy clothes, it's not like they have some moral failing just because they don't find Lolita particularly comfortable. People experience different things...don't be so judgy.

>> No.10312376

>>10312375
I’m sorry you’re too stupid to know how to find clothing that fits but you don’t have to paint it as other people being evul buwwies when it gets pointed out how dumb it is to complain about it when it’s such an easy fix

>> No.10312377

>>10312374
Calm down lady, I was agreeing with you.

>> No.10312379

>>10312374
>>10312376
I'm not sure if you're new and trying to fit in by being a raging bitch or your vag is genuinely this full of sand, but you need to chill. You're right that Lolita does not need to be uncomfortable but this level of hostility is cringeworthy.

>> No.10312381

>>10312365
idk but i consider anything that isnt me being naked or huge baggy sweatpants and sweatshirt as uncomfortable. i change out of all outfits asap when i get home. lolita is the same

>> No.10312384

>>10312379
Didn't you read? She wears OTT with wigs 3 times a week, clearly not new

>> No.10312387

>>10312384
You can be new to /cgl/ and not to Lolita.

>> No.10312412

>>10311952
Well, would you consider a cocktail gown worn at a white-tie event or a wedding gown cosplay?
Cosplay is not a synonym for event wear. It's a costume of a fictional character. Unless you're doing a lolita version of a fictional character or dressing as a character that is a lolita (which is a whole other bag of worms whether fictional "lolitas" actually dress like real ones) it's not a cosplay. I don't care if you're a conlita. Corresponding certain clothes with certain events is what most socially conscious human beings do; it's called a dress code. Doesn't make it a fucking costume.

>> No.10312422

Lolita is not cosplay, it's a fashion subculture. If you wear goth a couple times a year for events, does that make you a goth? no, it doesn't.

>> No.10312478

>>10312367
I have gastric problems and I find lolita decently comfortable, with the exception of skirts with tight or corsetted waistbands. The elasticized waist of a petti is soft and stretchy compared to say, the tight waistband on a pair of pants. If I were to rank clothes based on comfiness for stomach issues (just personally) I'd say overalls = loose normie dresses > lolita dresses and tighter normie dresses > normie pants = lolita skirts.

>> No.10312479

>>10312422
Honestly I'd accept this definition.
If you wear goth regularly, you're a "goth". If you wear lolita regularly, you're a "lolita". Otherwise you're a dabbler.

>> No.10312485

>>10312288
honestly it sounds like you have some self esteem issues you need to address, anon. not trying to be mean, reading that just made me sad for you

>> No.10312486

>>10312422
Goth is a music subculture tho, you can dress like a normie every day of your life and listen to goth music and still be considered goth. Conversely dressing in "goth" fashion every day of your life while not partaking in goth music won't make you goth. It's not a fair comparison to a fashion subculture like lolita.

>> No.10312487

>>10312486
I think that's a very obsolete definition of goth. The music is barely a part of it at all anymore, it's nearly 100% aesthetics. At least in my part of the world.

>> No.10312488

>>10312487
Yeah because the subculture is dying as a result of people treating it like a fashion trend. Same thing that will happen to lolita when people treat is as event wear/cosplay.

>> No.10312491

>>10312486
I think it's an apt comparison. Lolita also had ties to visual kei. Both goth and lolita have deviated significantly from those music ties.

>> No.10312492

>>10312488
I see where you're coming from and understand why it might frustrate an old-school goth, but at a certain point, if the majority of active members of the goth community (whatever that entails, idk if goths have meets to the same extent as lolitas) are not into the music, hasn't the definition shifted? I see subcultures as being defined by their makeup rather than their origins (though origins are of course important to acknowledge and be aware of).

By the same token, I wouldn't be happy if lolita became seen as more con-wear than everyday wear, but if that was the way the majority of the community began to go, I guess that perception would be correct. Discounting noobs, of course, and purely talking about "established" members of the community.

>> No.10312496

>>10312492
The problem there is that the most established and visible lolitas are also the ones who take it the least casually. So they may not represent the way the fashion is worn for some or even most of the people who wear it.

Or put another way, those of us who just wear it as clothes day-to-day aren't necessarily the same people posting instagram pictures, the same way your average everyday goth isn't arranging perfect goth outfits and uploading them to gothstagram.

>> No.10312507

>>10312496
Established was poor word choice on my part, apologies. I didn't necessarily mean the most visible lolitas (which would be a pretty poor representation of lolitas at large, I agree), but rather the average makeup of reasonably active members of your average lolita comm.

Having said that, you raise a good point. I really don't know how, when and where most people who consider themselves lolitas are wearing the fashion, so it doesn't make as much sense as I initially thought to use majority rule to define the subculture (if it even is one - I'm inclined to think it is but I know many people strenuously disagree with that), and it makes even less sense with a community as huge and disparate as the goth community.

Still, I'd love to see statistics on the demographics of both groups. I wish there were some way of taking subculture censuses that were properly representative of their current states.

>> No.10312511

>>10312507
Oh, yeah, that makes sense -- I'm not part of a comm, so I stupidly forgot that many lolitas are.

>> No.10312560

>>10312486
I meant goth as in gothic fashion specifically.

>> No.10312648

>>10312103
>>10312106
I can't speak for conlitas as cgl defines them, but I primarily wear lolita to cons. I wear scrubs everyday for work and don't go out on the weekends or run a lot of errands, so I don't really see the point of getting dressed up to lay in bed on a Saturday afternoon. If I'm going somewhere like a concert or making a day shopping trip, I'll consider wearing lolita but since most of my social life is at cons (which sounds sad now that I'm putting it in words, but I live an hour+ from most of my friends), that's where I concentrate my wears.

>> No.10312660
File: 878 KB, 1000x1208, image.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
10312660

>>10312305

Awesome. Thanks, anon.

This pic always pinpointed the difference betwen lolita and cosplay in a nutshell for me. they obssess over completely different things. Put them together in a room they'd probably scream at each other if they couldn't scream about everybody else.

>> No.10312710

>>10312363
This is why I like old school, because the lifestyle aspects are so much more pronounced. I heavily associate visual kei music with lolita, it's actually how I discovered lolita. It's well known that lolitas were often in the audience at VK lives. Obviously most western lolitas nowadays don't really listen to VK , but in the heyday of lolita in Japan these two were certainly intertwined.

Other than that, sure lolitas don't have to be lovelies etcetera, but I feel like there are certainly shared interests between large parts of the lolita community. Just because one person can chime in and say "well, actually, I am a complete tomboy outside of lolita" doesn't invalidate that.

This is actually why I make such a big distinction between people who wear lolita and/or other cute, girly fashions relatively regularly vs. people who wear lolita to cons and meets and are otherwise in jeans and t-shirts. There is often a very different mindset behind the way they wear the fashion and there's nothing necessarily wrong with that, but for me, I don't feel like they are the same category, and I would be willing to bet I'd have much more in common with anyone from the first category than from the second. It has little to do with all your hobbies being "lolita-appropriate" and much more with the general way you think about things and live your life.

>> No.10312815

>>10312488
>Same thing that will happen to lolita when people treat is as event wear/cosplay.

But that’s how Lolita has always been in Japan. Girls wore it on weekends or occasional days off from school. Even Momoko has to wear a school uniform in Kamikaze girls. Very few Japanese Lolita’s wear it every single day.

>> No.10312817
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10312817

>>10312355
Congrats on being comfortable but that’s not the style of Lolita I like anyway.

I usually wear circle lenses, some kind of shape wear and a minimizing bra with Lolita because I want to look my best. It’s still uncomfortable. I see Lolita like wearing formal vintage wear- where a majority of women wore sturdy shape wear when wearing fancy/formal dresses.

>> No.10312834

>>10311975
you don't have to come off cute or femenine, they're just clothes.

>> No.10312841

>>10312815
Nayrt but wearing it on the weekends because you wear a uniform or work clothes during the week is completely different from only wearing it a few times a year to anime cons because you see it as something that can only really be worn to cons. One is practicality, the other is treating it like a costume.

>> No.10312842

>>10312815
Wearing something only on weekends or days off is completely different from only wearing to go to specific events though. No one's suggesting people wear lolita to work or on every single day of their lives, because for many people that is not practical or even possible.

>> No.10312845

>>10312815
I feel like you're misconstruing the point on purpose

>> No.10312870

>>10312815
good to know that hoodies and leggings are also costumes.

>> No.10312917

>>10312842
>>10312841

but normies have special occasion wear too. are prom dresses costumes because they're usually worn once or to formal events?

>> No.10312993

>>10312917
I’ve never seen a normie get defensive when they’re out in formalwear and someone asks them what the special occasion is.

>> No.10313052

>lolita is not a subculture anymore
Lol since when?

>> No.10313076

>>10312993
I don't mind if someone asks me what the occasion is. It just gets grating when people keep asking "what's your costume" and "are you in a play"? I'll always do my best to answer politely, but have you ever seen someone in a play wear their costume out and about? It's not a reasonable question.

Also the entitlement of people who think that because you're wearing a "costume" they're owed the opportunity to take your picture or, worse, have their picture taken with you.

>> No.10313117

I think it's okay if people see lolita, goth, or any eccentric fashion as a costume or special occasion clothing. Not everyone has the will or means to wear the styles daily. I don't think those are the people who are rude to me in real life as someone who wears eccentric fashion daily.

I can't call it cosplay because that's of a character.

>> No.10313118

>>10312815
Momoko changed into her outfits after getting home from school. She's just a character who, as a loner, simply loves dressing up even just for herself. It's uncommon, although not unheard of, to have a school require a uniform to be worn outside of class, and many change into casual clothing & more after class.

What's more uncommon in the West is the idea of toning stuff down. On image boards, many people think full-on frills justifies lolita... when really many tone it down on the weekdays. That's because of online elitism.

>> No.10313133

>>10313052
Since the last decade or so. It's not about being feminist and expressing yourself anymore (in the west anyway). It's about how much expensive shit you can buy and showing it off.

>> No.10313135
File: 1.14 MB, 1280x1862, tumblr_o6h5avlHmd1s9hxveo3_1280.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
10313135

>>10313118
half of momoko's coordinates would be torn apart by cgl if posted on CoF.

>> No.10313136

>>10313135
They were standard for the time, you can’t really compare that to modern coords, which is why oldschool is a thing.

>> No.10313166

>>10313133
There are tons of subcultures based off of buying expensive shit. That doesn't preclude lolita from being a subculture. In fact, the collecting limited goods aspect makes it even more insular and niche. Normies wouldn't know it's expensive unless you told them.
And I know plenty of lolitas for whom their style is a fully political statement. Even if they don't say so in every single CoF post.
Try again. Lolita is still a subculture. Maybe people are just salty because it's international now, and it's more open to observers "lolitas at heart" via Instagram, Youtube, etc. I don't think that makes it any less a subculture than goth is, which has a similarly global impact/market and many orbiters.

>> No.10313168

>>10313166
I would call that a hobby, not a subculture. Subcultures share a common idea or goal, which this community does not.

I'm just talking about the west btw. In Asia, lolita is definitely still a subculture and is still about expressing yourself and embracing differences.

>> No.10313169

>>10313168
>only hivemind is good
>lolita must become hivemind again

>> No.10313799

>>10313135

She does fine when she's in lolita, actually -- mostly dressed head-to-toe in btssb, usually in matching sets.

The rest of the page here is mostly her roomwear, which you can even see her house is in the background of the accompanying scene shots.

>> No.10315396

>>10312200
>I think its silly when anons here pretend like lolita is so practical and comfortable to wear 24/7
>>10312283
>it can be! If you don't wear wigs, or a lot of makeup. I wear a light petti and pretty much no makeup daily, and it takes maybe 30-40 minutes for me to get ready. I agree with you that it can be formal though, ILD OTT is a whole world away from my daily wear.

>and if you aren't wearing it morning day and night you're a LARPing conlita.
no one is saying you need to wear lolita any specified amount of time to be considered legit. If you only wear lolita to cons you're just missing out.

>> No.10315408

>>10312288
>I'm mid-aged office clerk whose interests are fare from what lolita is supposed to be into
Lolitas aren't supposed to be into anything in particular.

>>10312363
You're just plain wrong, there are books, music, movies, check instagram if you're missing out on lolita art. We have norms (MUH RULEZ), we have HOLIDAYS, we have 500 communities worldwide in major cities. /rant but fuck off newfag
https://thelolitaguidebook.tumblr.com/commculture

>>10312375, >>10312374 was saying that you can work around any of those issues, if you care to
>what is reading comprehension

>>10313168
>In Asia, lolita is definitely still a subculture and is still about expressing yourself and embracing differences.
It's still like that in my comm, in burgerland.

>> No.10319952
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10319952

There are many books, manga, some movies, prominently featuring lolita.

It was founded with some pretty strong counter culture purpose among japanese alt/punk fashion brands and vkei/ jrock bands like Malice Mizer and Ali Project, bands that went on to create fashion lines.

It's always been event wear to a lot of people, but even since rhe 90s japanese lolitas haf the term "weekend-loli" for the people who only it to the occasional outing.

>> No.10319996
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10319996

>>10311952
bear with me but i have a long winded comparison to make

as a motorcyclist of necessity, i ride thousands of miles a year through rain and snow, almost every day of my life for the past 5 years. I save thousands of dollars a year. Motorcycles used to be for economic hard times, cheap, but high quality, convenient, reliable.

The industry sees this and makes giant cruisers that cost more than a new car, and sportbikes that reach 200mph in 5 seconds. These guys ride on weekends, in nice weather, for fun.. they experience motorcycling the least, but they have the most say in how they're made and how the laws around them are determined.

Insurance companies see that the average biker is likely to break traffic laws, likely to crash, and likely to die when they do.

I can see how cosplayers and the chinese community have a similar effect on lolita. These people have more money and are more numerous, they might not love and respect the history of the hobby, or take care of their things, but they're where the money is, hopping in trends and replacing dresses when they're too old.

this is mirrored in the way that motorcycles have created 'classic' styling of their new machines, but they've largely failed because the lot of us interestwd in that sort of things are still riding machines from the 70s and 80s that cost a fraction of the price. lolita has tried creating traditional 'oldschool' dresses, but the people who are interested in that are still more interested in the real deal, quality clothing that has survived decades and with care, can go on for many more.

for the daily lolitas and collectors, it's absolutely understandable why they look down on coslitas, even if they are the lifeblood of the fashion these days. this happens with the casualizing of videogames and with bands and movie adaptations watering down to go mainstream, too. the most passionate and dedicated fans get left in the dust, when companies need to appeal to new people for ¥¥¥

>> No.10320014

>>10319996
I appreciate you anon. As a fellow rider, and lolita

>> No.10320028

>>10319952
The thing is, and it’s been said many times, event wear is not a costume. Your prom dress, wedding dress, business suit, “festival” wear, what have you are not costumes. They are just clothes you wear at specific times for specific reasons. Lolita is the same.

>> No.10320030

>>10315408
Okay, but we don’t have a core ethos. Like I am the first to say we are a community, but I have a lot of *actual* goth and punk friends and we are not the same. They have a reason for what they do beyond “it looks cool”

>> No.10320031

>>10315408
"lolitas on insta sometimes post art and music and there has been 1 movie with lolita in it" is not a full blown subculture the same way, say, goth or punk is.
Also you contradicted yourself "Lolitas aren't supposed to be into anything in particular." ty for proving my point.

But actually let's all get together at the next Paradiso or smth and make a cohesive constitution of what we as lolitas believe in. Here I'll start:

1) FEMINISM
2) sustainability
3) slow fashion
4) anarchism
5) cuteness =/= childishness

We can do this

>> No.10320040

>>10320031
Anon, you can’t invent a subculture where there was none for 2 decades. It’s okay for us to just be an alternative fashion with a community

>> No.10320042

>>10320031
God this is so cringe

>> No.10320044

>>10320040
no

>> No.10320070

>>10320044
>but i wanna be special >:(
it’s okay sweetie. just put on your dress and go to cvs like the rest of us

>> No.10320073

>>10320031
>I can just declare everyone in an established community believes these things retroactively
I’m sorry, what?

>> No.10320075

>>10320031
anyone want to talk about #4

>> No.10320076

>>10320031
This is the most cringy post I've ever seen on this board, and that's saying something.

>> No.10320078

>>10320030
The vkei branch of lolita could arguably qualify.

>> No.10320095

>>10320076
at least ive made my mark on the board in some small way

>> No.10320103

>>10320078
Yes, this is correct. Lolita in general doesn’t though

>> No.10320114

>>10320028
There isn't a wedding or prom dress culture where people wear their wedding dresses to meetups to talk about new wedding dress releases and the history of wedding dress culture and design, flocking to online communities and hunting for rare wedding dresses on the resale market.. unless I'm wrong

>> No.10320143

>>10320114

1) you clearly have never encountered a straight girl getting married and i envy you


2) I can’t tell if you are arguing that it’s a costume or it’s a subculture. Goth fashion isn’t a costume because people get together and wear it to clubs; shit neither is club wear. People get magazines and discuss these things and follow designers in these spaces. I’m not sure what you are arguing.

Re: subculture. I’m tired. please look up what a subculture is and do some reading. If you still think lolita is a subculture, fine. there is grey area and I could see the argument, although I don’t agree

>> No.10320144

>>10320114
TIL athletic wear is a costume because I know a lady who sells leggings through an MLM

>> No.10320158

>>10320030
What kind of ethos does goth have? Bikers? Surfers? VSCO girls? Punk has been long mainstreamified and barely counts as a subculture now.

An aesthetic point of view can be as much an ethos as a political one. I would argue lolita has significantly stronger stances in its adherence to a strict aesthetic, rather than allowing itself to be co-opted by big brands and mainstream culture.

>> No.10320159

>>10320158
>what ethos does goth have
Do you have an hour while I explain everything about the goth subculture from its perspective on death and mourning to its club culture and political stances?

and VSCO isn’t a subculture you walnut. It seems like you think alternative fashion = subculture and that is very much not correct

>> No.10320161
File: 167 KB, 750x434, 6257D1C4-6040-4FB4-8630-F56FF337D0E9.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
10320161

>>10320158
What about this fits lolitas. Please actually research shit before you start talking out of your ass.

>> No.10320162

>>10320161
Interestingly gyaru does fit this definition, though. If you guys are looking for something a little closer to home to understand the difference between alt fashion and subculture with an alt fashion element, compare gyaru to lolita.

-Gals had a shared set of perspectives & beliefs (get wild, be sexy)
-Gals has club culture with their own norms and social hierarchies
-Gals had media focusing on elements outside of aesthetics (ex: egg wild often talk about sex, partying and other transgressive acts)
-Gyaru has purpose to its style beyond taste in aesthetics. What gals wore meant something intentional and it related to their group beliefs

>> No.10320180
File: 59 KB, 304x680, casual1.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
10320180

Nice bait op
But as a veteran lolita who recently quit three years ago, and who now dresses pretty normie and tomboyish, I'll tell you something.
Lolita is a costume. But this comes from my personal experiences, so dunno about everyone else.

Yeah maybe you aren't dressing as anyone when you put on your frilly dress and wig, but honestly... the whole "lifestyle" lolita and how you have to feel more feminine and somewhat fragile or danity made it feel like a costume for me. My obsession with the rules, the exact aesthetic to accomplish, and how much I wanted to look like the girls in japanese magazines really toyed not only with my own perception of myself but my perception of the world.

Everything I had to get had to be frilly, heart shaped, or mystical. I had to be an ethereal being. I had to drink tea and collect dolls. I made my life a lolita-esque experience. But as I became more this, I was less myself, even if I did like such things at that time. Surely I thought at the time that this was all there was to life, following a pretty jfashion that made me feel happy. But... I felt like I was wearing a costume. A costume of a fairy tale being, or a costume of someone who I wanted to be but really wasn't. It surely made me feel pretty and getting brand was such a rush, and knowing that I was one of the best dressed in my tiny comm felt good. I felt admired even by normies in the street. I saw it as fashion.

And even if you downplay lolita a lot, you still get some stares from normies. You have to wear a casual dress with your own hair and accesories that are not so evidently over the top to get a bit less judged, at least where I live. But the mentality of being a proper lolita was still there for me. I know a lot of lolitas don't fucking care about "feeling proper" but it's not about if you are rude, smoke, drink or whatever in a dress, it is everything else that comes with being a lolita, the cattiness, the OCD color combination, the competitive aspect etc.

>> No.10320190

>>10320180
None of that applies to me except for obsessing over color matching. Sounds like a personal thing

>> No.10320196

>>10320180
You sound like you have BPD anon

>> No.10320199

>>10320190
Same, except I’m pretty chill about color matching. It really is just clothes I wear when I go out or whatever

>> No.10320229

>>10320159
Sorry you're too old to realize that VSCO is categorized as a subculture by popular opinion and the people within it. I also find it odd that you're not able to articulate exactly what goth subculture has to say about politics, because as far as I've seen, most goths are just people who dress in specific clothing. Unless you consider Columbine part of goth culture.

>>10320161
>separate values
modesty, femininity, cuteness, maintaining a specific code of dress
>practices
Meetups, tea parties, holidays, lolita specific language, community
>beliefs
Strongly defined in-group and out-group. Maintain and spread the aesthetic, flashiness and conspicuous consumption, femininity outside of the male gaze, taking up physical space with overtly feminine objects, etc.

If gyaru's party and sex culture can be considered a subculture by your definition, lolita fits in pretty easily as well. The vast majority of lolitas wear their clothes with a level of intent. Whether or not they can cite a political motivation, there's no doubt that it means something to onlookers when a girl walks down the street in a giant pink, frilly dress and parasol.

>> No.10320236

>>10320229
literally everything you said about the "values" of lolitas is just part of the fashion, sorry anon but "cuteness" isn't a value

>> No.10320243

>>10320229
oh actually you're trolling nvm leave us alone

>> No.10320246

>>10320180
Sounds like you struggle with identity issues, this has not been my experience at all and I’ve been in lolita 10 years. The only thing that rings true in the slightest is being picky with color matching like >>10320190 said.

>> No.10320248

>>10320229
>VSCO is “generally accepted to be a subculture” but “idk what goths believe” either see >>10320243 or spend a few good hours googling the history of goth and the goth subculture. it’s extremely interesting so it’s worth the several thousand hours of content you can consume on it

>> No.10320249

>>10320248
sorry i can’t greentext because i’m stupid. but hey at least i know what goths are so there’s that

>> No.10320260

>>10320196
>>10320190
>>10320246
Shit I do struggle with it. I hate having BPD, it's hard.

>> No.10320266

>>10320260
Yeah, most lolitas in my experience don’t “identify” with being a lolita. They just wear it, even for they wear it frequently. It’s like any other hobby or activity for them.

>> No.10320274

>>10320180
That's... not been my experience at all.

>> No.10320278

>>10320229
Okay, since I am apparently old, what to “VSCO” girls stand for? What is their culture beyond... wearing and using extremely mainstream things? I teach rich kids and most of them have hydroflasks and birks

>> No.10320283

>>10320278
Oh, you see, they use *checks notebook* twitter memes

>> No.10320299

>>10320278
>takes a gulp from a hydroflask while wearing birks

I'm VSCO and lolita and I didn't even know it... feels good being a part of 2 distinct subcultures gulls, gotta diversify if one goes kaputz

>> No.10320304

>>10320299
It’s true... sometimes I wear scrunchies and quote drag queens too. Shit, I gotta tell my goth friends they aren’t a a part of a subculture. *I* am

>> No.10320314

>>10320229
>Sorry you're too old to realize that VSCO is categorized as a subculture by popular opinion and the people within it. I also find it odd that you're not able to articulate exactly what goth subculture has to say about politics, because as far as I've seen, most goths are just people who dress in specific clothing. Unless you consider Columbine part of goth culture.

new copypasta?

>> No.10320367

>>10320095
>I'm proud of being so cringe inducing!
Why not go for the cringe jackpot and suggest that the name 'lolita' be changed to something else?

>> No.10320368

>>10320162
lolita was a purposeful movement before it became princess cosplay

>> No.10320371

>>10320367
lolita -> Loli-kei

>> No.10320375

>>10320368
I’ll actually give you that very early lolita had the substance to be sub culture, but that hasn’t been true since the mid 2000s

>> No.10320377

>>10320371
Loli-kei sounds so wrong
let's make it a thing

>> No.10320378

>>10320375
This, lolita was "kind of" feminist and trying to break from the mold, now we all just want to be the Little Mermaid.

>> No.10320389

>>10320375
counterculture
>a way of life and set of attitudes opposed to or at variance with the prevailing social norm
subculture
>a cultural group within a larger culture, often having beliefs or interests at variance with those of the larger culture

lolita is counterculture, for sure. there are still people who wear it for the reasons that were a big deal back then, and.. those people are in a subculture, a small one, i guess, but one that has developed for 30 years or so. besides the feminist/punk shit you have a strong diy ethic and slow fashion, a lot of manga, anime and some novels to discuss, jrock and vkei.. it has most of what goth has going for it, watered down

>> No.10320400

>>10320389
this is the only person in this thread who has given me a legit argument, so thank you. agreed completely on the counter culture part. I still am going to split hairs on the subculture part due to the “watered down” bit, but thanks. This is a good reply.

>> No.10320404

>>10311952
>What's so bad about treating lolita as cosplay?
I don't get it even though I am involved a bit with lolita culture. It's a cosplay unless you wear it daily as part of your life, no cosplay/costumes does not have to be a specific character. Fuck people cosplay as generic japanese business men at cons.

The whole reason it rubs them the wrong way is because most lolitas think their culture is a cut above the normie trash of fat inuyashas and shit. I'm willing to bet most don't wear their lolita stuff to the grocery store to buy ben and jerries most the time and only break it out for small events or specifically cons.

>> No.10320410

>>10320404
>The whole reason it rubs them the wrong way is because most lolitas think their culture is a cut above the normie trash of fat inuyashas and shit. I'm willing to bet most don't wear their lolita stuff to the grocery store to buy ben and jerries most the time

I mean I do...

>> No.10320411

>>10312103
There are cosplays that cost thousands of dollars and only get worn to events

>> No.10320449

>>10320404
Grocery and running errands every weekend is the only place I wear lolita besides one or two meets a year

>> No.10320451

>>10320411
hard to wear an 8 foot tall hydralisk suit to the mall

>> No.10320776

>>10320404
I wear it when I'm out and about (errands, groceries, Ikea, etc.), when on dates with my husband, at monthly meets, and sometimes just at home. I think that's true of a lot of lolitas I know, can you explain exactly how involved 'a bit' is?

>> No.10320825

>>10320776
Probably is a conlita or friends with them... Even the lolitas I know who don’t wear it often at least wear it in non-con/meetup type situations like going to a concert or hanging out with normie friends

>> No.10320840

>>10320404
I've never been to a con and there's no comm where I live so I don't go to meets, but I wear lolita to class, the grocery store, to concerts, when I'm hanging out with friends, etc. Y'know, like clothes.
Shitposting to cgl doesn't mean you're
>involved in lolita culture

>> No.10320845

>>10320404
>Fuck people cosplay as generic japanese business men at cons
Sure, but when you're doing this you're still pretending to be someone. You're not pretending to be anyone when you're in lolita. What is and isn't defined as cosplay is nothing to do with how weird your clothes look.

>> No.10321002

I’m at a point where I don’t even blame normies for thinking we’re wearing costumes when they see us travelling to and from meets. The vast majority of my comm wear cheap wigs and their clothes often don’t fit them properly. Many can barely walk in their lolita shoes (some change into ratty sneakers to walk, then only put their lolita shoes on for pics) and don’t really know how to walk or sit in big skirts and petticoats without flashing people or knocking stuff over. You can clearly tell they’re playing dress-up for the day and don’t usually dress like that.
There’s more to it than the clothes just being out of the norm stylistically. Only a handful of girls I know actually look natural in lolita, and all of them wear it on a near daily basis.

>> No.10321034

>>10320404
> I'm willing to bet most don't wear their lolita stuff to the grocery store to buy ben and jerries most the time and only break it out for small events or specifically cons.

You'd be wrong, then. Your perception is likely distorted because lolitas with a large online presence tend to treat it more like cosplay (and that's not even to bash cosplay--I just mean they treat it with a similar ethos of dress-up artistry). There are plenty of us who just wear it every day, we just don't usually, you know, put an entire pirate ship on our heads or wear five petticoats at once.

>> No.10321396

>>10321034
i really doubt there's that many daily lolitas, and the ones that do it are probably young students, because most jobs wouldn't allow clothes like that

>> No.10321405

>>10321396
"Every day" was meant to be more in the sense of the word "everyday" (like, part of regular life) rather than literally every day.

Personally I work 5 days a week and I wear it every time I go out as well as sometimes at home, so usually 4-5 days a week. I'm already changing out of my work clothes when I get home, so might as well put on lolita amirite?

I'd say the only days I don't wear it are when I'm dead tired and just want to put on PJs and crash.

>> No.10321422
File: 45 KB, 387x500, D7dv6IWW4AA1x2u.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
10321422

>>10312834
You're wrong. If you don't look feminine in lolita, you're doing something very, extremely, intentionally wrong.

>> No.10321427

>>10321405
i have to wonder how uncomfortable your work clothes are that wearing lolita is somehow more comfy. without petti, i can maybe see it, but with? not comfy or easy to move around in

>> No.10321428

>>10321396
I have a job that lets me wear lolita dresses to work, it isnt common but easier with classic for sure, and I know its pretty easy to wear blouses with normie clothes and incorporate it into your every day wear that way.I also dress up every weekend, and it is stuff like hanging out with friends or just hanging around.

Its even easier as an adult to do this than as a student, since you have the money to afford the amount of clothes to wear daily.

>> No.10321433

>>10321427
To each their own. I find pants are more movement-constricting and don't let me sit the way I want to. Honestly I've accidentally taken naps in lolita.

>> No.10321634

>>10321427
Nayrt but I’ve always found skirts way more comfortable than pants, especially jeans.

>> No.10321687

>>10321396
I'm a freelancer so I actually wear lolita more often now than I did when I was in college, and I've actually met a lot of lolitas in a similar position. It's less rare than you'd think, and probably becoming more common since flexible/remote working is becoming more viable than ever.

>> No.10321829

>>10312106
>whatever cheap ""lolita"" made from Joann quilting cotton by someone who also knows nothing about it there at the con

That was literally my plan to test the waters as a noob who thinks lolita is cute and also like the challenge of sewing and having something original. How fucked am I?

>> No.10321838

>>10321427
What pettis are you wearing? As long as i’m not piling on accessories or squeezing into a dress i probably shouldn’t own in the first place, lolita is quite comfortable

>> No.10321845

>>10321838
for me pettis are uncomf because I'm always afraid I'll deflate them if I sit on them too long. It's irrational, I know. I'm also perpetually afraid of getting sweat stains in my lolita clothes so I subconsciously feel like I need to stay in place. I'm also with >>10321634
in saying that jeans are incredibly uncomfortable and I would pick some loose-fitting lolita over them every time for comfort. Dresses + tights/ stockings >>>> rough tight jeans that grind up into my crotch

>> No.10321853

>>10321845
I get irrational fears, but you are correct. If you have a good petti it won’t *ever* deflate. Also, try wearing light undershirts under your lolita and/or buy cheap blouses you don’t care about. Honestly just try buying some cheaper lolita in general. My $35 brand OPs are my fave items just because I don’t care if they get ruined

>> No.10321857

>>10321853
This, you just want one made of a good material. From what I've read, the tulle ones are the ones that deflate over time. I wear my MLT pettis quite a lot and I never have issues with deflating. Sometimes they get a bit disarrayed, but I just rearrange the layers and they look even again.

>> No.10321860

>>10321829
To be honest, baby’s first lolita sewing project pretty much never looks good even if the person has great sewing skills. People always go for the wrong materials, the wrong patterns, weird details, bad proportions. It’s best to get a feel for the fashion first before designing anything yourself. I’d recommend you buy some secondhand brand first. If you absolutely want to make it yourself I recommend you use an actual lolita pattern (like from Otome no Sewing) and maybe run your design ideas by the handmade thread first before buying any materials.

>> No.10321866

>>10321853
>>10321857
I specifically got the voile one because I knew I'd have these fears. It doesn't work, still perpetually irrationally worried.

Also I do the whole "maxipads in the armpits" things for my OPs and it works like a charm and stops the fear of staining, but it's not exactly conducive to comfort.

And yeah I only get cheap blouses off the secondhand market for that exact reason.

>> No.10321894

>>10321860
Duly noted. If I sew anything, it'll be something really hard to fuck up like an elastic skirt and then roll the savings over into buying a nicer blouse and shoes.

>> No.10321939

>>10321838
Any petitis. Or even hoop skirts. It's much more comfortable not to be wearing one and taking up less space too.

>> No.10322317

>>10312103
>>10312106

The variant I meet usually buys an entire taobao brand outfit (off whichever shop sells them in sets). Followed by wigs in the fakest colours, the flashiest headdresses (we're talking veils *and* horns *and* flower crowns at the same time), colour contact lenses, and makeup so thick you're not even sure what they look like under the layers of paint, contour and 2 pairs of falsies.

Then they spend the entire day walking around and getting photos taken. Afterwards, you can sometimes see them sell the entire outfit on the con forum, or whatever, it just dissappears and they never wear lolita or go to meetups ever, until the next con rolls around and you see them in yet another outlandish lolita cosplay.

In other words, they really do treat it as cosplay, they're literally buying a costume + wig + makeup to wear for one day, get photos taken, same as a cosplayer might work on an outfit only to wear it for one day at a con. The big difference is that a lolita (a)doesn't need to worry about accuracy, and (b) doesn't need to worry about creds of buying instead of making their own costume. So basically, lazy-ass hoes just taking the hobby as an excuse to be lazy attention-seeking hoes without going through the effort of making an actual cosplay.

>> No.10323062

>>10320180
This sounds like a mental illness, not just being into the fashion.

>> No.10323066

>>10323062
She already confirmed she has BPD, which results in identity issues like this

>> No.10323080

>>10320404
Cosplay inherently implies a costume. Lolita is clothes. You're not dressing us as someone or something, therefore it's not a costume, therefore, not cosplay.

Cosplay literally stands for costume play

Goths fall into these same issues of people assuming they're in costume all the time. It's kind of infantalizing. Like "aww look at the womanchild in her cute little costume :)"

But it's just an outfit. We don't put on a persona when we wear our clothes any more than anyone else does. Except for the half retarded autists who think that the fashion is related to cosplay.

>> No.10323092

>>10323080
how do you square this with historical fashion enthusiasts who call their clothing "costumes"? Why are you so butthurt over a word, who cares if by someone's definition of "costume" lolita falls into that definition. These semantic argument wars are boring and need to stop, it really doesn't matter that much

>> No.10323105

>>10323092
because they are dressing up as someone else from a different time period and wearing their stuff to reenactment events/costuming contests and I’m wearing a poofy skirt to walgreens

>> No.10323172

>>10323105
oh my god whatever I don't care anymore

>> No.10323173

>>10323172
Cool. I like living in the reality where words mean things. Happy to have you here

>> No.10323177

>>10323173
yeah well "lolita" means sexualized underaged girl so EFF YOU

>> No.10323179

>>10323177
lolita is a name, dumbass.

>> No.10323180
File: 38 KB, 904x287, lolita.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
10323180

>>10323179
no u, dumbass

>> No.10323181

>>10323180
oh ho, you got me.

>> No.10323184

>>10323181
ho

>> No.10323648

>>10311952
Hello Jasmijn

>> No.10323685

>>10323648
Who?

>> No.10327487

>>10321002
ur opinion is correct

>> No.10327494

>>10311952
bait