The Great Otome-kei debate

[Anonymous No.10091801]

Continuing from >>>>10089014

>Otome-kei versus Olive style: whats the difference
>Should we just call these threads western otome-kei style?
>if otome-kei does't exist in Japan, why does the western community see it as a different style, how did that happen? and why does MlLK/Jane Marple/Emily Temple cute not have much overlap with lolita events in Japan?
>Just dump cute coords, lets all be friends

[Anonymous No.10091805]

>>10091801

[Anonymous No.10091807]

>>10091805

[Anonymous No.10091809]

>>10091807

[Anonymous No.10091812]

repost from last thread

[Anonymous No.10091826]

Some links about Otome-kei

DailyOtome, the livejournal community
https://dailyotome.livejournal.com/425.html
>Otome (乙女) means "young lady" in Japanese. Otome-kei (乙女系) is a Japanese street style that focuses on details like bold colors, unusual mixing (but not necessary- can match) of colors, fabric ruffles, embroidery, and ribbons. It can be classified as a substyle of lolita. A lot of the clothing can be used with lolita, but the silhouette is a little different. Petticoats are often unnecessary. The look of otome is romantic and girlish; it can even be described as the more mature version of lolita. Unlike lolita, there are no strict guidelines for this style. Typically, the look one tend to want to achieve with this style is a "refined young lady"; most often, you get the late 1950-1960's feel from the clothes. Some have even called this style as casual OL (office lady) style.

Otome vs Lolita discussion from 2008 on Lolita_Indies
https://lolita-indies.livejournal.com/3166.html

History of Lolita in the 80s and 90s
http://fyeahlolita.blogspot.com/2010/02/old-school-lolita-in-90s-80s-and-70s.html

What is Casual Lolita?
http://www.fyeahlolita.com/2012/10/casual-lolita-toned-down-lolita-fashion.html

[Anonymous No.10091830]

>>10091809

[Anonymous No.10091832]

Is it so bad that Otome-kei can kind of be a Western invention based on their view of what they perceive to be a rather defined Japanese style? Not everything needs to be defined by the Japanese to be j-fashion. We can still use Japanese clothing brands like this and go with the "otome-kei" style.

[Anonymous No.10091834]

>>10091830

[Anonymous No.10091839]

>>10091832
This. What's wrong with coming up with something ourselves?

[Anonymous No.10091840]

>>10091834
>>10091832
These are pretty much my thoughts, anon. The western fashion community has always defined things differently and more rigidly than the Japanese community. This is just one more thing that is different. Maybe in Japan its easy to think brands like ETC and Angelic Pretty are one and the same, but from our distance they aren't. And for as much as anons insist this is just casual lolita, a ton of these coords would be put straight in the ita thread if they had the lolita label.

[Anonymous No.10091841]

>>10091840

[Anonymous No.10091844]

>>10091841

[Anonymous No.10091845]

>>10091844

[Anonymous No.10091848]

>>10091845

[Anonymous No.10091849]

>>10091848

[Anonymous No.10091851]

>>10091801
Ugh I thought it was finished

[Anonymous No.10091853]

>>10091832
>>10091839
It is embarrassing and confusing. Even worse than kodona because now you're aware it can correctly be called Emily Temple cute girl, Jane Marple girl, casual lolita or soft lolita, you still want to use the wrong term

[Anonymous No.10091857]

[Anonymous No.10091868]

>>10091853
Kodona was a mistake, it got lumped in with Ouji.
It’s really obvious that there’s a difference between what we see as casual lolita and this. And Soft lolita isn’t anymore real than kodona, how is that better?

[Anonymous No.10091876]

>>10091868
>what we see as casual lolita
And this is a mistake, just like kodona. If you want to make your own style, come up with your own name instead of using something that started out of ignorance. I'm sure you can come up with tons of cute names.

[Anonymous No.10091888]

>>10091876
But Otome is the name? There’s nothing wrong with using the term otome. Bad games run rampant in alt fashion, we’re stuck with otome just like we are stuck with lolita.

[Anonymous No.10091901]

>>10091851
It will never be finished

[Anonymous No.10091912]

>>10091868
Soft lolita is from a book by a Japanese lolita model, and it's used by the same Westerners who use otome kei. They just use all those different terms to get a wider social media reach, watch them start using #olivegirl if those threads become a regular thing.

>>10091888
Then why not keep kodona too?

[Anonymous No.10091914]

>>10091912
Otome kei was a thing before Social Media was popular, so you can’t say that it was just a term invented for likes on Instagram

[Anonymous No.10091916]

>>10091914
Did you even read the previous thread? Everything that's posted in this thread is called casual lolita in Japan, otome is/was used for a number of different things but it is not this specific style.

[Anonymous No.10091957]

>>10091888
But we're not stuck with otome kei, only a small amount of people uses it and most of those people tag with soft lolita, eglfashion and casual lolita too. Plus nobody uses otome kei in Japan (for this style, from what I understand when it was used for a clothing style in the 80s it looked like what's posted in the Olive thread). I think it'd be really fun to come up with something on our own. Am I the only one who feels uncomfortable using a foreign word ''wrongly'''? I'm sure if we came up with something and named the threads that way, it'd catch on quite soon. I'm not feeling inspired right now but it could be something like maiden kei general.

[Anonymous No.10092005]

Every time someone wants to change a name I just laugh. The last nine times we tried to change names on this Bhutanese fish carving board it was a fucking fail. Just leave it be, if it offends you so much maybe stop appropriating originally japanese brands.

[Anonymous No.10092015]

>>10092005
I too am laughing at the people who are trying to change casual lolita to otome kei

[Anonymous No.10092028]

The term otomekei may come from the western comm, but there are already plenty of Japanese lolitas who at least use the tag on social media. Lolita fashion is an international community and shifts can start anywhere in the world, not just in Japan.

[Anonymous No.10092032]

>>10092028
there are automated ways to see what tags are relevant to what you're posting, so when you like lolita and you want to become ~~efamous~~ you look up those tags and otome kei will be suggested. It's not because she actually knows what otome kei is lol.

[Anonymous No.10092036]

>>10092015
If this is what casual lolita is, then why does NOTHING in the casual lolita threads look like this?

[Anonymous No.10092037]

Which one of these is otome kei?

https://www.instagram.com/explore/tags/%E3%82%AB%E3%82%B8%E3%83%A5%E3%82%A2%E3%83%AB%E3%83%AD%E3%83%AA%E3%83%BC%E3%82%BF/
or
https://www.instagram.com/explore/tags/%E4%B9%99%E5%A5%B3%E7%B3%BB/

[Anonymous No.10092041]

>>10092032
That’s a pretty dismissive attitude towards someone’s intelligence. Her 5 tags are clearly intentionally chosen and reflect what she’s wearing — she didn’t tag every lolita brand like some people do. Tag analytics may be how she found otomekei, but now she know what it is and identifies with it — which is how labels evolve. I’m just not sure why people in the western comm seem to see Japan as an impermeable fortress that occasionally sends out missives but is totally blind to everything going on outside the walls. (Commodore Perry happened, after all.)

[Anonymous No.10092042]

>>10091957
I don't like that it's called maiden, it'll have the same connotations as lolita

[Anonymous No.10092044]

>>10092036
Nayrt but brands like Jane Marple and Emily temple cute used to be recommended for casual lolita all the time, only when otome kei threads started popping up more often did some people started saying it's not casual lolita.

[Anonymous No.10092053]

>>10092044
Except I’ve posted multiple years old links to old livejournal posts from 2008 talking about otome kei.

[Anonymous No.10092055]

http://www.fashion-brand-data.com/womens-brand/janemarple.html
According to this website, JM is a lolita, girly and harajuku brand for teenagers and young adults. Also according to this website 6%dokidoki is a fairy brand
http://www.fashion-brand-data.com/womens-menu/fairy-brand.html

[Anonymous No.10092059]

>>10092053
You know casual lolita existed before then right? There are posts and comments that say you can wear ETC or JM as (casual) lolita. Btw not everyone read every post and comment on livejournal, otome kei wasn't posted about regularly back then.

[Anonymous No.10092061]

>>10092036
Like what? Like pic related which was posted in the casual lolita thread last week?

[Anonymous No.10092062]

>>10092059
Why would you talk about “threads on here” if you’re referring to a time that predates even the live journal yesrs of lolita?

[Anonymous No.10092064]

>>10092062
What?

[Anonymous No.10092066]

>>10092064
>only when otome kei threads started popping up more often did some people started saying it's not casual lolita.

Right here you’re implying that otome is a cgl invention. No one said you can’t wear those brands for lolita, but there’s a specific kind of styling that differs ETC worn lolita and ETC worn otome. If >>10092061 wasn’t a cute, thin Japanese girl, no one would argue that’s a good lolita coordinate, it would be considered ita.

[Anonymous No.10092067]

>>10091853
>embarrassing and confusing
Maybe off topic but holy shit does anyone remember the cringy otahime threads that used to pop up?

[Anonymous No.10092069]

>>10092066
>more often
when people started jumping on the bandwagon there it wasn't just because of a post from 2008

[Anonymous No.10092071]

>>10092055
>using a normie google bot site as source for alt fashion arguments

[Anonymous No.10092073]

>>10092066
I didn't imply that at all. I just know from experience that ETC and JM were often recommended as casual lolita brands, and only when otome kei threads started popping up more often (meaning it existed before, but now there was more of it in English), some newbies started arguing that every ETC and JM coord is otome kei and not lolita.

[Anonymous No.10092079]

I don't care if you guys want otome kei to be a thing, but I wish people would stop arguing about it. I know you hate rules but maybe you should make a guide about what it is, without mentioning lolita at all. And stop posting casual lolita coords in these threads. If you can't explain what otome kei is without explaining how it's different from casual lolita, it's not unique enough to stand on its own.

[Anonymous No.10092102]

>>10091832
Japanese girls on Instagram use the English otomekei tag too

[Anonymous No.10092109]

>>10092079
>If you can't explain what otome kei is without explaining how it's different from casual lolita, it's not unique enough to stand on its own.
60-80s girly vintage fashion, isn't even hard to tell how its different to casual lolita considering there are no petticoats nor the typical lolita shape.

[Anonymous No.10092119]

>>10092109
Yeah, it’s not hard to describe otome without mentioning lolita. Vintage and twee influenced, with an emphasis on bright colors and pattern mixing. Printed dresses usually have a retro package design influence

[Anonymous No.10092144]

>>10091849

[Anonymous No.10092145]

>>10092144

[Anonymous No.10092153]

>>10092145

[Anonymous No.10092155]

>>10092153

[Anonymous No.10092157]

>>10092155

[Anonymous No.10092158]

[Anonymous No.10092161]

>>10092157

[Anonymous No.10092168]

>>10092161

[Anonymous No.10092169]

>>10092168

[Anonymous No.10092170]

>>10092067
Kek yeah I do, and people saying "yeah that's how I dress!" too. It was kinda endearing imo.

[Anonymous No.10092172]

[Anonymous No.10092173]

[Anonymous No.10092175]

>>10092169

[Anonymous No.10092176]

[Anonymous No.10092177]

[Anonymous No.10092180]

[Anonymous No.10092181]

[Anonymous No.10092183]

[Anonymous No.10092186]

[Anonymous No.10092193]

Has anyone else found themselves more and more drawn to Otome the longer they've been in lolita?

[Anonymous No.10092195]

>>10092193

I find myself more drawn to otome kei, natural kei, and mori myself but I also find I usually miss the mark completely because I've shoehorned myself in so hard. Western vintage is easier desu.

[Anonymous No.10092198]

>>10092193
I have for sure, I think it's just out of desire of wanting to dress up more but having the common sense to realize full on lolita isn't practical all the time. as dresses released by major brands become more and more unwearable for daily wear, my tastes get pushed further to otome.

[Anonymous No.10092215]

>>10092198

[Anonymous No.10092216]

>>10092215

[Anonymous No.10092233]

>>10092216

[Anonymous No.10092235]

>>10092233

[Anonymous No.10092236]

>>10092235

[Anonymous No.10092238]

>>10092236

[Anonymous No.10092240]

>>10092238

[Anonymous No.10092241]

>>10092240

[Anonymous No.10092243]

>>10092241

[Anonymous No.10092244]

>>10092243

[Anonymous No.10092245]

>>10092240
angiichan is the reason I got into otome

[Anonymous No.10092250]

>>10092244

[Anonymous No.10092251]

>>10092250

[Anonymous No.10092254]

>>10092251

[Anonymous No.10092257]

>>10092254

[Anonymous No.10092333]

>>10092257

[Anonymous No.10092334]

>>10092333

[Anonymous No.10092344]

>>10092036
Because when stuff like that is posted people are told its otome and redirected

[Anonymous No.10092401]

>>10092198
You didn't used to have common sense?

[Anonymous No.10092409]

>>10091801
>>Otome-kei versus Olive style: whats the difference
There is no difference

[Anonymous No.10092432]

>>10091876
>come up with your own name
I want to nominate Alice deco and Olive a la mode

[Anonymous No.10092436]

>>10092245
Her guide on what otome kei is is very restricting though and mostly just her opinion

[Anonymous No.10092440]

>>10092005
But it works. In western comms we use egl for lolita, and in China we use lo

[Anonymous No.10092470]

>>10092409
Olive got like 50 different styles over its timespan tho, from "Shibukaji" to "Femmi", "New Romantic" to "Amrar" and "Wasougara".

[Anonymous No.10092492]

So like, do any of you girls like getting fucked in this? I'm legit wondering. Not interested myself, I'm just curious. Cause it seems like something cute to ram into.

[Anonymous No.10092495]

>>10092492
keep your dick away from my clothes. i don't want your deformed ova

[Anonymous No.10092507]

>>10092470
Olive is where otome kei originally came from, but most of what people are posting here looks more like causal lolita than otome kei. Why not post otome kei coords from Olive here?

[Anonymous No.10092509]

>>10092507
>Why not post otome kei coords from Olive here?
Because that's already an own thread different to this "discourse" one.

[Anonymous No.10092526]

I thought “Otome kei” wasn’t real at all, now it’s connected to Olive? Can’t we just accept this is “Western otome” and stop the fighting then?

And everyone insisting every coordinate in this thread is totes casual lolita is delusional

[Anonymous No.10092544]

>>10092526
Otome kei is real in Japan though. It's a style that originated in the 80s that was mostly shown in Olive. You could even say it's a subculture. The reason people started arguing it's not real, is that they didn't know what it really is, since most of the coords posted in otome kei threads are actually casual lolita. If people stopped posting casual lolita in otome kei threads there would be a lot less confusion and arguments.

[Anonymous No.10092556]

>>10092544
The western community isn’t going to be able to change overnight. For years there’s been a devision that certain coordinates with ETC, Jane Marple, etc are considered Otome and not casual lolita.

[Anonymous No.10092565]

>>10092556
>For years there’s been a devision that certain coordinates with ETC, Jane Marple, etc are considered Otome and not casual lolita.
Because the brands are common for otome but most still shove a petti underneat and make it have the typical lolita anatomy.

[Anonymous No.10092660]

>>10091801
Otome kei exists/existed but it looks different from what we thought I guess. I'd love to see more original otome kei coords, and not just "JSK + cardigan + a-line petticoat". Pic related is called casual lolita by the person who wears it, so why post these kind of looks in the otome kei thread when there can be more interesting things?

[Anonymous No.10092714]

>>10092660
or maybe we accept that there will be overlap. like how not everyone in the casual lolita thread thinks salopettes count.

this coord is perfectly fine for otome, but if this was posted to CoF, she'd be criticized or her lack of legwear and shoes.

[Anonymous No.10092716]

>>10092714

[Anonymous No.10092718]

>>10092716

[Anonymous No.10092719]

>>10092718
a lot of the ways otome is worn, with clashing patterns, flat shoes, is how they are styled in advertisements. for all the insistence that ETC is totes lolita, they don't seem to be styled that way very often in ads or spreads.

[Anonymous No.10092721]

>>10092719
of course ads aren't always a 1:1 example of how the clothes are meant to be worn, theres a bit of exaggeration there, but even AP hasn't put out many spreads that are completely non-lolita, they still represent the spirit of the brand and the clothes.

[Anonymous No.10092724]

>>10092721
the main reason i think otome should be split off from casual is because when i want to wear casual lolita, i don't reach for otome. usually when someone is looking for casual lolita inspiration they want to find ways to casually wear pieces they already own isn't it foolish to say "sure casual lolita exists, but you need a whole separate wardrobe to pull it of".

[Anonymous No.10092742]

>>10092719
Literally nobody suggested ETC is a lolita brand

[Anonymous No.10092757]

>>10092742
Emily temple cute considers itself a lolita brand.

[Anonymous No.10092764]

>>10092742
The last thread people insisted it’s a lolita brand even if it’s not in the GLB

[Anonymous No.10092802]

>>10092764
ETC was featured in GLB plenty of times

[Anonymous No.10092876]

>>10092757
Where? I admit you can wear it in a lolita coord but I don't see that kind of description from ETC anywhere

[Anonymous No.10092927]

>>10092802
GLB isn’t only for lolita, and it isn’t featured as often as other actual lolita brands. It’s safe to assume they purposefully distance themselves from lolita fashion. ETC is more normie in japan than AP or BTSSB.

[Anonymous No.10093091]

>>10092927
That doesn't mean every ETC coord is otome kei. My casual lolita coords have been posted in these threads before lol.

[Anonymous No.10093099]

>>10092927
>purposefully distance themselves from lolita fashion
They still advertise in lolita magazines, gave permission to be featured in a lolita guidebook, and associate with novala takemoto who wrote a book about a lolita who only wears ETC. Why is it so hard for you to accept many lolitas wear ETC and that's okay? Nobody is saying you can't wear it in otome kei coords too. I just don't understand why you want to post casual lolita coords here instead of learning what otome kei originally looked like (before a group of Western lolitas decided it looks just like casual lolita)

[Anonymous No.10093106]

>>10093091
I think some people here just don't want to admit that the styles sometimes overlap. ETC releases a lot of things that will work for lolita, and lolita brands sometimes releases things that work with otome-kei.

[Anonymous No.10093109]

It's weird, this discussion went from "otome kei doesn't exist" to "it exists but it actually looks like 80s and 90s Olive" to "it doesn't exist but we decided it looks like this"

[Anonymous No.10093121]

When I look up 乙女系 it's mostly about otome games or something Chinese. Where are people getting from that it's from Olive magazine?

[Anonymous No.10093141]

>>10091801
>>if otome-kei does't exist in Japan, why does the western community see it as a different style, how did that happen?
Because people don't read

>>10092079
>>10092109
We can just say it's Japanese vintage fashion.

[Anonymous No.10093146]

interesting article about otome kei http://asianbeat.com/en/serials/sakusaku/41.html

[Anonymous No.10093184]

>The word Lolita was first used by Japanese designer Milk in 1989 to describe her latest line of feminine dresses. Unfortunately, at the time Milk had simply heard the word ‘Lolita’ and had never read the book. Lolita (as a description) was first published in the magazine Olive and used to describe dresses that were made by designers Milk and Jane Marple.
Maybe lolita and otome kei are just two different styles of Olive girl

[Anonymous No.10093186]

>The word Lolita was first used by Japanese designer Milk in 1989 to describe her latest line of feminine dresses. Unfortunately, at the time Milk had simply heard the word ‘Lolita’ and had never read the book. Lolita (as a description) was first published in the magazine Olive and used to describe dresses that were made by designers Milk and Jane Marple.
Maybe lolita and otome kei are just two different words for Olive girl

[Anonymous No.10093208]

>>10093121
You should consider to set your search setting to pre 2009 and idk why you are searching for anything kei, that kanji just means "type/system" so of course you find things that aren't fashion.
http://pluto.cocolog-nifty.com/main/2013/03/olive8090-5969.html

[Anonymous No.10093211]

>>10093186
As said by others, Olive featured many kinds of styles and even Decora in the issues before it went extinct, just like how fans of Fruits are called Fruits girls/boys Girls but obviously don't wear the same style.

[Anonymous No.10093220]

>>10093208
Because people claimed there was a fashion called otome kei in Japan

>>10093211
Just like how fans of JM are called Jane Marple girls and not otome kei...

[Anonymous No.10093225]

>>10093220
There is a fashion called otome in japan, there is a link included for a reason.

Also, then lets rename lolitas into Angelic Pretty girls, BTSSB girls, etc if you already use that as ~argument~.

[Anonymous No.10093244]

Can the Olive Girls discussion continue in that thread?

If we had Uchuu-kei threads as can have Western Otome thereads. It’s well established now that it’s not a set style in japan.

[Anonymous No.10093263]

>>10093225
The thing is, that fashion from Japan looks very different from the coords posted here. That's why people are saying otome is just casual lolita.

>>10093244
We can have otome kei threads but not if there are 2 different styles called otome kei.

[Anonymous No.10093264]

>>10093244
This thread is for discussion

[Anonymous No.10093376]

>>10092198
I think that's a pretty common sentiment in the lolita community as a whole. I know a lot of lolitas who wear one or more other alt-fashions as daily wear and save lolita for meetups and cons. In terms of daily wear, styles like fairy kei and otome are the future for j-fashion.

[Anonymous No.10093385]

>>10093263
>That's why people are saying otome is just casual lolita.
No, people are saying they are tired of casual lolita being posted as otome because of newfags that think everything non-OTT is casual and everything actual casual is otome when otome doesn't even features the anatomy to begin with, you won't find a single petticoat.

[Anonymous No.10093390]

>>10093385
So you agree with me? There are several coords in this thread with a petticoat

[Anonymous No.10093399]

>>10093376
>daily wear, styles like fairy kei and otome are the future for j-fashion
There have always been more casual styles like that that come and go, lolita is the only jfashion that has survived this long

[Anonymous No.10093424]

>>10093390
I wasn’t aware petticoats were the only defining feature of a lolita outfit

[Anonymous No.10093426]

>>10093424
Can you post some coords that you think are otome kei?

[Anonymous No.10093431]

>>10093424
But they aren't otome.

[Anonymous No.10093432]

>>10093426
Can you show me what coordinates in this thread are lolita?

[Anonymous No.10093434]

>>10093431
But I thought otome isn’t real?

[Anonymous No.10093437]

>>10093424
You just said that otome doesn't have a single petticoat. There are a bunch of coords in this thread with petticoats.

[Anonymous No.10093438]

>>10093432
lolita =/= casual lolita

[Anonymous No.10093442]

>>10093437
I never said anything about otome and petticoats. That must’ve been a different anon. Some dresses from ETC are lined with built in petticoats for minor poof, but that doesn’t make them automatically lolita.

[Anonymous No.10093445]

>>10091807
>>10091826
>>10091830
>>10091845
>>10091848
>>10091857
>>10092028
>>10092145
>>10092153
>>10092155
>>10092158
>>10092161
>>10092169
>>10092172
>>10092173
>>10092176
>>10092183
>>10092186
>>10092198
>>10092215
>>10092216
>>10092243
>>10092244
>>10092250
>>10092254
>>10092257
>>10092660
>>10092714
>>10092721
how not to do otome

[Anonymous No.10093448]

>>10092036
>>10093442
>>10093442
go home you're drunk

[Anonymous No.10093458]

>>10093445
So there’s not a single coord you think is otome? Several of the ones you mentioned would be laughed out of CoF and put right into an ita thread

[Anonymous No.10093462]

>>10093458
Who cares about CoF? That place is full of normies and cosplayers. Have you ever looked up otome or casual lolita in Japanese?

[Anonymous No.10093470]

>>10093462
How can I look up otome kei in Japanese if otome doesn’t exist? This thread keeps going in circles. Either otome kei exists in japan or it doesn’t and it only exists for westerners.

[Anonymous No.10093472]

>>10093437
>There are a bunch of coords in this thread with petticoats.
Which are casual lolita and not otome.

[Anonymous No.10093477]

>>10093470
It exists but it isn't that casual lolita stuff people keep posting because they are so used to OTT lolita that they don't even consider casual lolita as lolita anymore.

[Anonymous No.10093478]

>>10093470
Are you retarded? There are more than 2 people arguing here. Look up カジュアルロリータ or カジュロリ and 乙女系. And read the previous thread.

[Anonymous No.10093480]

>>10093470
Are you retarded? There are more than 2 people arguing here. Look up カジュアルロリータ or カジュロリ and 乙女. And read the previous thread.

[Anonymous No.10093484]

>>10092109
I'm new but I'm going to post some images that I think fit? (Not from Olive though)

[Anonymous No.10093485]

>>10093480
I’m still waiting on someone to show me what real otome is then

[Anonymous No.10093488]

>>10093484

[Anonymous No.10093490]

>>10093477
That makes no sense, we were all talking about otome kei during the early livejournal years, way before OTT became the lolita standard.

[Anonymous No.10093491]

>>10093488

[Anonymous No.10093494]

>>10093491

[Anonymous No.10093496]

>>10093494

[Anonymous No.10093498]

>>10093490
How doesn't it make sense? Back then there wasn't OTT and the issue is that NOW people post everything non-OTT in the casual lolita threads.

[Anonymous No.10093499]

>>10093496

[Anonymous No.10093500]

>>10093499

[Anonymous No.10093502]

>>10093498
You’re implying that otome kei only came to be because Lolita is so OTT we now consider casual coordinates to be an entirely different style.

[Anonymous No.10093503]

>>10093500

[Anonymous No.10093505]

>>10093503

[Anonymous No.10093506]

>>10093505

[Anonymous No.10093507]

>>10093506

[Anonymous No.10093509]

>>10093507

[Anonymous No.10093510]

>>10093509

[Anonymous No.10093511]

>>10093510

[Anonymous No.10093512]

>>10093502
No, I am saying that people are MISUSING the term otome for casual lolita now because they consider non-OTT as casual now.

[Anonymous No.10093515]

>>10093512
Plenty of these coordinates would have been considered otome by 2008 standards though.

[Anonymous No.10093521]

>>10093515
Nope.

[Anonymous No.10093522]

>>10093515
Idk if you went to otome threads back then, but there was a lot of complaining when it started to become more popular, with the main complaint being that lolitas coorded it in a lolita way and it looked too lolita

[Anonymous No.10093523]

>>10093515
You are probably one of those that shits up the casual lolita threads with normal coords then.

[Anonymous No.10093527]

>>10093522
Most of these photos are from old otome threads and otome dedicated tumblrs abd blogs

[Anonymous No.10093529]

>>10093523
No, I’m not, I just have different standards with otome kei and casual lolita.

[Anonymous No.10093530]

>>10093399
I'm not saying that lolita is dying, I'm saying that it is and probably will continue to be worn mostly for meetups and cons due to how impractical it is for daily wear. Unless there's a casual revival or the community collectively decides to integrate otome with lolita, I don't see that changing any time soon. People looking for something they can wear daily will gravitate towards styles like otome and fairy kei due to the more casual nature of those fashions.

[Anonymous No.10093533]

>>10093521
You keep saying what you feel otome is not, without ever defining what you think otome *is*.

There's a defined anatomy for a lolita outfit and basic aesthetic guides for each of the major sub-styles; that gives a foundation on which to class a particular outfit as belonging to the style, or not, or borrowing elements to combine with a different style. Same thing with dolly kei, mori girl (pictured), gyaru, etc. Those definitions and guidelines are what let us look at an outfit and understand whether it fits within the style's umbrella.

So what is the anatomy of an otome outfit, in your opinion? What are the core aesthetics and considerations that distinguish an otome outfit from office lady or preppy or casual lolita?

Without that definition, it's like being at a 1950s obscenity trial: I can't define it but I know it when I see it! Which is absolutely useless and creates the kind of round-about discussion that this thread has devolved into.

[Anonymous No.10093534]

>>10093527
there are also a lot of tumblr blogs that posted about kodona, that doesn't make it the right term

>>10093529
maybe your standards are factually incorrect

[Anonymous No.10093551]

>>10093533
This has been my frustration with the threads. I’m the OP of both, and I’ve contributed most of the content.

Personally this is the guideline I follow.

[Anonymous No.10093552]

>>10093533
We already had the definition posted plenty of times.
>>10092109
>>10092119

[Anonymous No.10093570]

>>10093551
Most of the criteria on the otome side also count for lolita. If you read the previous thread, how did you miss this:
http://pluto.cocolog-nifty.com/main/2013/03/olive8090-5969.html
https://www.japantimes.co.jp/life/2002/05/24/language/japanese-women-staying-in-touch-with-their-inner-virgin/#.XEzW0DBCeUk
https://www.sankei.com/life/news/181122/lif1811220001-n1.html
https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/乙女
https://artsandculture.google.com/exhibit/ogKCPmGdPtB7Iw
https://tokyogirlsupdate.com/kawaii-2-0-theory-vol-6-20160694637.html

[Anonymous No.10093572]

It feels like >>10093552 is just straight-up vintage style, and has no overlap with any modern Japanese brand, except maaaaybe Jane Marple. ETC and Leur Getter look quite different from this.

While historically this is the foundation for otome, I'd argue that >>10093551 is much closer to how the style is actually being worn by Japanese enthusiasts today. Styles evolve, and the constant referencing back to OLIVE magazine (awesome as those images are) does not reflect the current state of the fashion, imo. It's like someone in the lolita threads arguing that anything besides early 2000s old school isn't "real lolita".

[Anonymous No.10093573]

>>10093186
>The word Lolita was first used by Japanese designer Milk in 1989
Source?

[Anonymous No.10093576]

>>10093572
>Japanese enthusiasts
er, by that I meant "people in Japan who are wearing this style", not weebs.

[Anonymous No.10093577]

>>10093570
>Most of the criteria on the otome side also count for lolita.
If it was for written definitions, half of all feminine jfashions would "fall" under lolita with being vintage, casual and frilly.

[Anonymous No.10093579]

>>10093572
A lot of those Japanese girls are just wearing casual lolita or their favourite brand with no knowledge of what otome is

[Anonymous No.10093584]

>>10093572
>It's like someone in the lolita threads arguing that anything besides early 2000s old school isn't "real lolita".
Bad comparison considering the issue is your average casual lolita outfit being mislabeled as otome, it's like if people would post Fairy Kei outfits into Sweet Lolita threads only because some items are AP.

[Anonymous No.10093585]

>>10093572
I feel like ex-lolitas just co-opted otome kei and made casual lolita/ETC/LG style the new otome kei, and now that people are saying ''actually, otome looks a bit different'' you're saying it evolved

[Anonymous No.10093588]

>>10093572
It's more like people are arguing that old-school lolita is not lolita because it evolved into otome kei

[Anonymous No.10093589]

>>10093584
My point was that styles evolve. What was "otome" in the Olive magazine era isn't what people mean when they use the term today.

A different example: 70s and 80s goth had a very distinct look. That evolved in the 90s with the crossover of fetish wear elements and again in the late 90s / early 2000s with the infusion of cyber design. Modern goth retains elements of that original style, but you can also call the evolved versions "goth" and people in the scene accept that as now falling under the general style umbrella. They might fuss about substyle terms like "romantigoth" or "rivethead" but it's all acknowledged to be part of the overall aesthetic.

I think you're insisting that otome can only be what it originally was, rather than seeing the ways in which it's being changed by the people who wear it.

[Anonymous No.10093593]

>>10093585
But that’s always been the case. This was being said ten years ago. This isn’t something new, you guys. ETC/JM style was seen as different. I’m pretty sure there was a tag on daily lolita for otome.

[Anonymous No.10093596]

>>10093570
I don't think they do. I don't recall pants being part of lolita, and I'm pretty sure mixing patterns, colors, and motifs will get you slam dunked into the ita thread.
It might not be otome, but it certainly isn't lolita as it's defined today.

[Anonymous No.10093599]

>>10093593
There was, and it's mostly what this thread seems to be defining as casual lolita: https://daily-lolita.livejournal.com/tag/!otome

[Anonymous No.10093600]

>>10093589
Did you read >>10093570?
Those aren't articles from the 80s. Of course fashion evolves, but mistakes are also made when you're trying to follow a fashion without speaking the language, and thinking >>10091807 is otome or that Misako wears otome kei is a mistake.

[Anonymous No.10093601]

>>10093596
Pants are part of ouji and ega, mixing patterns/colors/motifs is okay in lolita too

[Anonymous No.10093606]

>>10093596
Why don't people post otome coords with pants and mixed patterns instead of JSKs with a cardigan and petticoat?

[Anonymous No.10093607]

>>10093600
I did. They're contemporary articles about the history of the style (aside from the Japan Times one, which is more lifestyle than fashion), not describing how the fashion is currently being worn.

[Anonymous No.10093608]

>>10093606
I can do that just fine.

[Anonymous No.10093609]

>>10093606
>instead of JSKs with a cardigan and petticoat
That's the people that mislabel casual lolita.

[Anonymous No.10093610]

>>10093607
>how the fashion is currently being worn
And how is that according to you? MILK, Jane Marple, ETC, Leur Getter dress with a-line petticoat, funky socks and a beret?

[Anonymous No.10093615]

>>10093607
It is a lifestyle/subculture

[Anonymous No.10093619]

>>10093610
Pretty much >>10093551 although I think my understanding is very influenced by ETC and Jane Marple ads, which I've (previous to this thread) generally heard referred to as the key brands for otome, along with Pink House (which I got the impression was considered a bit unfashionable at the moment). Quirky girly style that embraces mix-mashed colors and motifs, blends in fun patterns like stripes and polka dots along with vintage elements of retro ad design and light florals. Evoking the sense of a young girl who is still growing into her place in the world and exploring who she might be (which ties into the general loose fit of the clothes and the mixing of colors & motifs). Drawing on 50s-70s style but updating it for a modern girl.

What would you cite as contemporary examples of otome, as per your definition? Are there current magazines, bloggers/instagrammers, etc that you would reference?

[Anonymous No.10093620]

[Anonymous No.10093678]

>>10093445
alright oh wise one bestow upon us what is the one and true Otome. We'll wait

[Anonymous No.10093689]

>>10093445
Some of what you picked makes no sense and aren't lolita at all. How is >>10091830 not Otome, but you didn't highlight this >>10091834, did you forget it or is that "real" otome? >>10092145 definately isn't casual lolita either. Neiter is this >>10092714.

People always used to say casual lolita was difficult, maybe not even exist because theres only so far you can make an outfit casual before its no longer lolita anymore. Otome's use of normie shoes, tights or no legwear, plain cardigan and other normie accesories is what is keeping it from being lolita, thats the distinction. Otome to me is a feeling. When I want to wear casual lolita, I'll wear casual lolita. I'll wear a cutsew and lolita brand shoes, and still have an appropriate amount of poof, like the distinction I made here >>10091812, which everyone keeps ignoring for some reason.

[Anonymous No.10093704]

>>10093689
Herajika is a great way to show the difference, since she wore so many different styles and wore them well.

[Anonymous No.10093708]

>>10093704

[Anonymous No.10093722]

>>10093619
Nayrt but ETC and JM can easily be worn as otome, but they can just as easily be worn as lolita. It depends on which pieces you use and how you coord it.

[Anonymous No.10093727]

[Anonymous No.10093731]

>>10093727

[Anonymous No.10093734]

>>10093731

[Anonymous No.10093736]

>>10093734

[Anonymous No.10093739]

>>10093736

[Anonymous No.10093740]

>>10093739

[Anonymous No.10093742]

>>10093740

[Anonymous No.10093745]

>>10093742

[Anonymous No.10093747]

>>10093745

[Anonymous No.10093748]

>>10093747

[Anonymous No.10093749]

>>10093748

[Anonymous No.10093751]

>>10093749

[Anonymous No.10093771]

>>10093689
are you ignoring what casual lolita looks like in japan for some reason?

[Anonymous No.10093775]

>>10093689
I think the problem with >>10091830 and >>10092145 still have the common lolita *poof* and looking too polished which >>10092714 also does, just without the poof.

[Anonymous No.10093777]

>>10093775
You really think >>10091830 has standard lolita poof? And >>10092714 isn't polished at all. It's just a dress over some kind of blouse, and an animal purse, which looking at it now I think that is what keeps it from being good Otome, but it definitely isn't lolita either. I'll give you >>10092145 though, I think it teeters on the edge of both.

[Anonymous No.10093778]

>>10093689
the person you're replying to didn't say they're lolita, but >>10092145 does kind of look like a lolita coord to me desu.. probably one of those people who didn't have the right cardigan and shoes so she just tags it as otome to get away with it.

[Anonymous No.10093779]

>>10093689
>Otome's use of normie shoes, tights or no legwear, plain cardigan and other normie accesories is what is keeping it from being lolita, thats the distinction.
What, are you really implying that something only is lolita when it's brand? Because your description is what Casual Lolita is - integrating casual pieces into your outfit.

[Anonymous No.10093780]

>>10093777
Nayrt but what? Standard lolita poof? Just because someone only wears 1 a-line petticoat doesn't mean it's less lolita than someone who wears 3 cupcake petticoats on top of eachother. That's a stock photo from ETC, it's not lolita or otome for that reason.

[Anonymous No.10093783]

>>10093777
Having a poof at all already kills it from being otome which doesn't have any and I said the examples look too polished because otome isn't color matchy-matchy.

[Anonymous No.10093784]

>>10093689
oops, i wear normie accessories with lolita all the time

[Anonymous No.10093785]

>>10093778
>so she just tags it as otome to get away with it.

Or she tags it as otome because that is what she thinks shes wearing.

>>10093779
I thought Casual Lolita was wearing lolita in a casual way, not intergrating normie wear into lolita.

>>10093780
So what is it then, just ETC style? >>10093775
said it had common lolita poof, when it doesn't, there might not even be a petti under that dress, I have ETC skirts and dresses with built in petticoats. And poof and shape is pretty integral to the lolita style and aesthetic.

[Anonymous No.10093786]

>>10093785
There is obvioulsy a petticoat under that dress. If it's built-in (which I know it isn't) that still means it has a petticoat.

[Anonymous No.10093787]

>>10093783

[Anonymous No.10093793]

>>10093785
It can be just a stock photo

[Anonymous No.10093794]

>>10093785
>wearing lolita in a casual way, not intergrating normie wear into lolita
Casual lolita was originally coined as term for outfits suitable for casual wear, like at work or uni, which is done by making it look more normie while still following the anatomy.

[Anonymous No.10093861]

>>10093745
Whoaaaaaa this is my style and I never, ever thought it could be labeled otome....!

[Anonymous No.10094095]

>>10093861
Why not?

[Anonymous No.10094110]

Requesting otome pink house coords. I always seen it mentioned as the main otome brand but nobody in the otome kei tag wears it .

[Anonymous No.10094117]

>>10092927
JetJ wasn't featured often either

[Anonymous No.10094120]

What kind of shoes would someone wear for otome fashion in the winter time? Looking for some recommendations, thanks.

[Anonymous No.10094135]

>>10091840
I want shoes like this so bad!

[Anonymous No.10094143]

otome no waltz

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAiu2iLM9RQ

[Anonymous No.10094228]

[Anonymous No.10094230]

>>10094228

[Anonymous No.10094232]

>>10094230

[Anonymous No.10094235]

>>10094232

[Anonymous No.10094236]

>>10094235

[Anonymous No.10094238]

>>10094236

[Anonymous No.10094241]

>>10094238

[Anonymous No.10094243]

>>10094241

[Anonymous No.10094806]

>>10093244
>>10094503

[Anonymous No.10096428]

>>10094120
Girly boots

[Anonymous No.10096438]

>>10093510
Why Do I love this to death???

[Anonymous No.10098234]

>>10096438
Maybe your maidenly heart recognises it's true otome kei

[Anonymous No.10098241]

>>10093510
>>10096438
Because it’s actually a very old MILK advert!

[Anonymous No.10098632]

t.b.h. I don't fucking care about the debate to me otome is a style fullstop.

[Anonymous No.10098703]

>>10098632
>choosing to be ignorant about something you supposedly like

[Anonymous No.10098716]

>>10098632
honestly anon, same. cgl is the only place talking about how otome isn't real, so searching for it and tagging with it is the only way to find coordinates in the style im looking for.

[Anonymous No.10098719]

>>10098632
>>10098716
The ''debate'' isn't even about whether otome kei is real or not, it's about if it's what western lolitas think it is or if it's what japanese people say it is

[Anonymous No.10098771]

>>10098719
it flat out doesn't exist in japan at all though. "otome kei exists in japan but it means something else" means nothing when the entire tag is just mostly westerners who dress in ETC style

[Anonymous No.10098777]

>>10098771
maybe because the tag... is not written... in Japanese

[Anonymous No.10098782]

>>10098777
Yeah thats the hashtag I'm talking about. I'm seeing a lot of westerners dressed like >>10091841 and >>10091830. Not a lot of Japanese people dressed like >>10093510

[Anonymous No.10098784]

>>10098771
It comes from Japan. Read the wiki dumbass.
>>10093570

[Anonymous No.10098786]

>>10098782
That's because Japanese people dont tag their coords with otome kei, but that doesnt mean it doesnt exist and never existed. They usually just tag with the brand name or not at all. Though coords like >>10091830 are sometimes tagged with casual lolita.

[Anonymous No.10098787]

>>10098784
And yet the tag for otome-kei is devoid of that style. it may have been called that once but not anytime since the advent of social media.

[Anonymous No.10098788]

>>10098786
WHAT? Oh my god. First Otome Kei doesn't exist. Then it does exist, but it's actually 80s and 90s Olive Girl style and looks nothing like lolita. Then it was established that what westerners consider Otome-Kei is actually just casual lolita. Now it exists and its casual lolita? We are arguing in circles.

[Anonymous No.10098791]

>>10098787
Have you looked at the otome kei tag on instagram? Those people also tag with lolita and a bunch of stuff is unrelated to jfashion. They are just trying to get attention. Styles like >>10093745 obviously still exist in Japan, it's just not popular with Western lolitas jumping on the otome bandwagon.

[Anonymous No.10098793]

>>10098788
Are you actually retarded? There are 32 posters in this thread, some of them with dumb opinions.

[Anonymous No.10098802]

https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/乙女系

>2. It is a subculture by a young woman. Traditional girl culture has been restructured as a culture containing diverse trends beyond the traditional girls hobby since the late 1990s .

[Anonymous No.10098808]

>>10098791
I'm not saying those styles don't exist. But if no one calls it otome style, then how is it otome?

[Anonymous No.10098818]

>>10098808
See >>10098802 and >>10093570, which all call it otome.

[Anonymous No.10098919]

>>10092198
I agree. I feel like old school and otome are closer as they're more wearable. Whatever modern lolita is is just for show and never cares about being lenient in rules, practical, or easy to walk around in.

[Anonymous No.10099176]

>>10098919
I always see people on cgl say this, but when I see lolitas irl they wear practical coords. The only time I saw a lot of people wear OTT was when I went to a huge brand event.

[Anonymous No.10099177]

And even at that event there was a girl wearing a cutsew dress with a braid in her hair, no accessories. She didn't look ita, just underdressed.
>>10099176

[Anonymous No.10099182]

>>10098788
Are you ok anon?

[Anonymous No.10099187]

>>10098716
Why not look through the brand tags and casual lolita/カジュロリ tag?

[Anonymous No.10099203]

>>10091801
>>Otome-kei versus Olive style: whats the difference
Olive was a magazine that showed different styles, including otome. Otome is a clothing style/subculture and not a magazine. It's also used for games.
>>Should we just call these threads western otome-kei style?
Hell no. I've been getting bored with western otome kei desu. In the beginning people used to be critical of coords that looked too lolita, pointing at the quirky styling of JM in magazines. Nowadays the coords some people post as otome kei look very bland.
>>if otome-kei does't exist in Japan, why does the western community see it as a different style, how did that happen?
The same way kodona and oshare kei happened.
>and why does MlLK/Jane Marple/Emily Temple cute not have much overlap with lolita events in Japan?
What events? Do AP and Moitie overlap with events in Japan?
>>Just dump cute coords, lets all be friends
Okay

[Anonymous No.10099217]

>>10098919
I was looking for Japanese blogs the other day and I found an old-school lolita who loves JM, in case you're interested: http://hinanodoll.blog103.fc2.com/
She doesn't update anymore though

[Anonymous No.10099225]

>>10093619
>What would you cite as contemporary examples of otome, as per your definition? Are there current magazines, bloggers/instagrammers, etc that you would reference?
Nayrt but I just found this one
https://www.instagram.com/otomestyle/
Is it weird that I love how old she is? I think everyone else on my feed is forever 19.

[Anonymous No.10099236]

[Anonymous No.10099238]

>>10099236

[Anonymous No.10099240]

>>10099238

[Anonymous No.10099241]

>>10099240

[Anonymous No.10099243]

>>10099241

[Anonymous No.10099244]

>>10099243

[Anonymous No.10099245]

>>10099244

[Anonymous No.10099250]

>>10092927
You're right, GLB was not only for lolita. It was for gothic and lolita.

[Anonymous No.10099259]

Some of the brands I saw mentioned after looking for otome fashion in Japan, but I never/rarily see posted on cgl: Atsuki Onishi, fi.n.t, Pink House, DO!FAMILY, Franche Lippee, Ingeborg, Wonderful World, karl helmut, JM Dans le Salon and BASSO.
The Japanese otome blogs I found don't post much coords though, they mostly talk about lifestyle stuff and random thoughts. Btw if you just search for ''otome'' you get a lot of games, so try adding words like vintage, heart, lifestyle, culture, or brand names.
I think the ''problem'' is that when otome kei started to become more well-known in the West, a lot of lolitas started wearing it with the wardrobe they already had instead of investing in brands they didn't know.

[Anonymous No.10099281]

>>10098802
That doesn’t say anything about fashion thought. Don’t cherry pick stuff.
>恋愛を扱った少女趣味的な女性向けの小説、漫画、アニメ、ゲームなどの総称である。
Love-based girls genre, including novels, manga, anime, games etc
>若年女性によるサブカルチャーである。従来の少女文化が、1990年代後半以降に、従来の少女趣味の枠にとどまらない多様な傾向を含む文化として再編されたものである。
Subculture for young women to explore hobbies outside of the traditional. (For women, sexist country and all that - the one you quoted, refer to Otome Road)
>女主人公の名前変換機能を持つ「乙女ゲーム」に酷似した女性向けのフィクションの総称(漫画、ライトノベル、天使やユニコーンのぬいぐるみ等の「2.5次元」商品も指す)。恋愛を題材にした少女漫画や実写作品には、条件に当て嵌まらない作品も多数存在する。
Term for fiction aimed at women, such as Otome Games, often featuring the woman as the protagonist. (Manga, light novels, angel/unicorn stuffed dolls). Not the same as Shoujo Manga/generic romance.

Also OLIVE ISN'T CALLED OTOME where did this concept even come from?

[Anonymous No.10099283]

>>10099281
>Also OLIVE ISN'T CALLED OTOME where did this concept even come from?
From you, since you are the first person to mention it

[Anonymous No.10099284]

Also if you google 乙女ファッション the only related thing that pops up is the Otome no Sewing Book. The rest is generic girly fashion.
Because Otome means maiden, aka pure and girly.

[Anonymous No.10099286]

>>10099281
Otome road is related to the 3th meaning, not the 2th

[Anonymous No.10099289]

>>10099284
I find plenty of fashion results so idk what you are talking about, also I wouldn't call this generic girly.

[Anonymous No.10099291]

>>10099286
The second one says nothing about fashion. It’s referring to hobbies outside of the traditional norm. Women weren’t allowed to be sexual but in the 90s this stuff was made with the woman’s feelings in mind - something totally new. Especially considering that even now, women in Japan are expected to deal with their husbands cheating and drinking until morning. Who wouldn’t prefer a 2D guy.

[Anonymous No.10099292]

>>10099289
>>10099284
Google isn't what it used to be desu. The results we all see are very biased. Reverse image search doesn't even work for me anymore.

[Anonymous No.10099294]

>>10099289
Oh, okay I found one related event.
“Otome (maiden) Cosplay Fashion” lol

[Anonymous No.10099295]

>>10099286
Pretty much this, plus otome road didn't exist in the 90s so it should be obvious that it is unrelated.

[Anonymous No.10099296]

>>10099291
Who says it says anything about fashion? You're saying they list 3 different definitons for the same thing?

[Anonymous No.10099298]

>>10099291
If you did even bother checking the related links, you would know that it is about the otome subculture that is talked about here, hence the male equivalents being called otomen who are into vintage, girly hobbies, etc.

[Anonymous No.10099300]

>>10099295
The wiki didn’t say Otome Road though? I was using it as an example of Otome outside of traditional culture. Everything in brackets was me specifying.

I get that people are annoyed so I’ll just give you this one piece of advice - If you’re going to call it Otome then call it Otome Fashion, and NOT Otome Kei or else people will think you’re a fujoshi otaku (pic related)

[Anonymous No.10099303]

>>10099298
>>10099296
Okay, then this is the list of genres on that page.
>Dream Novels
>Love Novels
>Shoujo Manga
>Shoujo Novels
>Dream Light Novels
>Otome Games
>Yuri
>Boys Love
>Mori Girl

Just make sure not to call it Otome Kei or you’ll be associated with all of those. Otome just means maiden so otome fashion is literally Maiden Fashion, and refers to girly clothing. Otome Kei is a very specific genre of the above list.

[Anonymous No.10099306]

>>10099300
You were specifying something that didn't exist at that time and wasn't related to #2, hence someone pointed out it was related to #3

[Anonymous No.10099307]

>>10099281
/jp/ here, the description of 2 translates more like
>Subculture of traditional girly hobbies, contained various trends beyond the traditional hobbies starting from the late 90s.

[Anonymous No.10099314]

>>10099307
The “Beyond traditional hobbies” is the most important aspect of it I think, since it probably refers to “Not cooking and having kids”

[Anonymous No.10099316]

>>10099314
That makes sense with the other articles about otome that you didn't read. Focusing on fashion, making your own accessories, reading and dreaming about France, instead of looking for a husband.

[Anonymous No.10099319]

>>10099316
All I want to emphasise is not to call it Otome Kei like a lot of people have been doing in these threads.

[Anonymous No.10099320]

>>10099319
That's not how you came across at first. Anyway, I actually like those games and romantic novels so I don't care lol.

[Anonymous No.10099321]

>>10099320
Because I know that Otome isn’t called that in Japan. But I give up since nobody seems to understand, I don’t cars what people call it now as long as it isn’t Otome Kei.

[Anonymous No.10099324]

>>10099283
The entirety of this and last thread insisted that otome started with olive magazine and that is “real” otome

[Anonymous No.10099332]

Did anyone read any of these articles

http://pluto.cocolog-nifty.com/main/2013/03/olive8090-5969.html
https://www.japantimes.co.jp/life/2002/05/24/language/japanese-women-staying-in-touch-with-their-inner-virgin/#.XEzW0DBCeUk
https://www.sankei.com/life/news/181122/lif1811220001-n1.html
https://artsandculture.google.com/exhibit/ogKCPmGdPtB7Iw
https://tokyogirlsupdate.com/kawaii-2-0-theory-vol-6-20160694637.html

Or are these fake because some of them mention the 80s/90s and it doesn't only focus on fashion?

[Anonymous No.10099334]

>>10099259
>I think the ''problem'' is that when otome kei started to become more well-known in the West, a lot of lolitas started wearing it with the wardrobe they already had instead of investing in brands they didn't know.
This so much

[Anonymous No.10099336]

>>10099324
What would you say the origin of otome is? That tsu post on livejournal?

[Anonymous No.10099387]

>>10099332
'The girlish kawaii fashion promoted by Olive magazine, launched by Magazine House in 1982, receives support from junior college students and some high school students, and builds into a major boom. At an early stage in the trend, otome (maiden/young lady) fashion was a hit in1984, characterized by voluminous clothes with details like large collars, frills, and ribbons, and red, pink, and white colors. The PINK HOUSE brand, popular among the wearers of this trend, had also been launched as a separate company in 1982.'

[Anonymous No.10099388]

>>10099387
This makes a lot of sense to me. I'm also somewhat confused with the arguing / debate. Maiden girl type looks, with influence taken from story book heroines, manga, western romantic fashions etc started to emerge in the 70s. Romantic feminine brands such as Pink House helped form the framework for what was to become lolita fashion. 'Otome' predates lolita fashion and is somewhat fluid but crucially, is separate from gyaru and preppy type Japanese looks. Otome is a loose term and has been used and understood within Japan, but isn't necessarily that widely used or known by all, but not 'wrong' per se. It's perhaps a step too far to say that it doesn't exist, it's just a much less closely defined term and as mentioned, encompasses many types of whimsical, feminine type looks, all with a vague image of a storybook heroine, in her own world and not dressing to be sexy, impress or please others. Otome isn't a defined style in the way that lolita fashion is, but I think it may be more accurate to say that otome is a general descriptor, rather than a well defined and widely understood fashion movement. There is also also too much variation between brands that encompass the romantic feminine image described above, and so any strict term to define them wouldn't really fit.

The western communities jumped on the term 'otome' because it was a simple way to define the 'sister' styles that appeared distinct from lolita, yet still had many things in common (not to mention any overlap, particularly in terms of early and proto-lolita). So basically, it keeps turning into debate because both sides are kinda right.

[Anonymous No.10099393]

>>10099388
Otome kei threads have always started off by saying it's not defined by rules. This isn't new information. Some of the links in this thread have been posted years ago in otome kei threads. Even the otome kei livejournal says it's related to lolita fashion.

[Anonymous No.10099398]

>>10099388
I think the debate mostly comes from people posting casual lolita coords in otome kei threads. If people posted vintage inspired jfashion more, nobody would argue against that.

[Anonymous No.10101267]

new thread >>10099346