/cgl/ - Cosplay & EGL

>>9495445
>Will UTKs ever make a comeback?
For me they're always been here, since OTKs always hit me UTK

>>9495471
Fat or tall?

>>9495445
Considering that sailor had a boom like 5 years ago, was followed by nun some years later and has been lately do tue the China boom in Japan, maybe country will evolve too?

>>9495483
You're already seeing a lot of country-ish stuff lately since gingham is trending.

>>9495445
I really like having strict rules and I know that's sometimes an unpopular opinion, but it's because it makes it pretty clear cut as to what is and isn't lolita fashion

>>9495489
I am not talking about prints.

>>9495492
Agreed. I don't think the "rules" make the fashion as restrictive as people think they do, they're just guidelines that define the aesthetic and differentiate it from other cute and girly styles.

>>9495473
Stop being obsessed with fatties, i'm just 1m78

>>9495489
That's just spring/summer collections every year

>>9495492
>>9495532
But they do change. Maybe not the way they are written down, but you can't deny that Lolita looked way different from pic related but now this is totally recognizable as Lolita. 10 years from now it can look different in ways you can't imagine.

>>9495549
Tea-lenght dresses have been done by classic lolita brands even over 10 years ago, there are even some in the earliest GLB.

>>9495568
You're focusing on one aspect of the coord. That's not what Lolita looked like 10 years ago.

>>9495549
>this is totally recognizable as Lolita
Maybe I'm just an oldfag stuck in the past but that's debatable.

>>9495589
Yeah even now I'd never blink if I saw it posted a historical inspired outfit. You can be OTT while still following the lolita aesthetic.

>>9495568
I think the tea-lengths of the past were more influenced by natural kei and EGL. The lengths of today aren't referencing either and are worn just because that's the direction lolita has gone in.

>>9495504
Brands have been releasing gingham nonprints too, do you not keep up with new releases? I know it's a perennial summer favourite that seems more popular in Japan than in the West, like straw hats and bags, but larme has caused an increase in it IMO.

>>9495773
Gingham=/=Instant Country

Newfag.

>>9495826
Maybe I should have mentioned I am talking about country-specific cuts.

>>9495568
Just because it was done does not mean that it was the norm. Dresses past knee length were a pretty big no-no a few years ago, even moreso than going blouseless.

>>9495489
I just thing gingham and country lolita is a summer/spring trend that every brand hops on, not a universal lolita trend like AP and chiffon prints.

I think lolita fashion is going to continue to evolve, and the rules will be bent to consider that. When I started lolita, one of the main rules was natural makeup, obviously that isn't a thing anymore. The rules aren't going to be anal about blouses or skirt length anymore either. I think we're going to see even more prints and MTO releases as time goes on, almost everything released will be a series.

I guess right now to look at trends we need to look at what Chinese lolitas are buying, because that is the big lolita market now.

>>9495836
>Dresses past knee length were a pretty big no-no a few years ago
JetJ was releasing tea length stuff at least as far back as 2012 (the Star money OP comes to mind), and nobody tried to argue that they weren't lolita.

>obviously natural makeup isn't a thing anymore
Everyone complains about anything more garish than brown or pink eyeshadow, so I don't see how heavy makeup is accepted at all.

>to look at trends we need to look at what Chinese lolitas are buying
I don't know about that. They are the biggest market, but that doesn't necessarily mean they have much influence in the west. While we do get the occasional coord picture from them, that's a very limited snapshot of what they wear. Also, since we don't directly interact with them, I don't think they can really influence the western fashion scene that much. At least, not to the extent that a western e-famous lolita might. So while the Chinese lolitas might influence what the brands release, I don't think they'll really influence how we coordinate it or if we even buy it (remember all those releases that sold terribly in the west but still sold out because of Chinese lolitas).

>>9495871
First off, 2012 is not that far back. I'm talking 2009 and earlier, 2012 is the start of the OTT classic/JetJ painting dresses craze, so I'm not sure what your point there is.

And heavy makeup is more accepted now than it was in the early stages of lolita, and I'm talking fake lashes, gems and stickers decorating eyes, deco nails matching dresses, circle lenses, etc. You're thinking heavy makeup like instagram makeup.

>I don't think they'll really influence how we coordinate it or if we even buy it (remember all those releases that sold terribly in the west but still sold out because of Chinese lolitas).

The fact that those releases are even happening proves that brands are listening to what Chinese lolitas like. The Western community never had that level of influence, brands were not catering to us like they do to the Chinese lolitas. Yeah, we in the west might resist the trends that the Chinese lolitas like, but we are outliers and aren't going to be counted. If that is what sells then that is what is going to be made. And apart from people on cgl tired of taobao releases, ton of Westerners are into the current prints getting released these days.

>>9495826
I know that, but we're talking about lolita of the future, of course it'll adapt. Most of the recent nun prints bear little resemblance to oldschool ones; most recent country bears little resemblance to oldschool country. And country-specific cuts like >>9495828 weren't even used for country in the oldschool era, unless you're conflating country and natural kei - they just used typical sweet and classic cuts in a different print and colour palette with straw accessories.

>>9495887
Agreed, seriously what's with all these newfags acting like 2012 is ancient and they're wise oldfags? Lolita started in the 90s, early 2000s at latest if you want fully formed modern lolita to be standard. Five years is nothing.

>What do you think lolita will look like in the future?

OTT Classical Lolita with fake books as headwears.

Anons who are looking for old releases with longer skirts, you need to be looking at Victorian Maiden ads in the older GLBs. And by older GLBs I mean nothing over #20.

Though I should mention that VM is also the brand that released the mermaid skirt, and the other mermaid skirt. Possibly the best example of "no lolita rules in Japan".

I should also mention that nothing VM or AatP put out actually looks like the chiffon confection the other anon posted.

And whilst we're at it OP's photo is ita af. I hope nobody points to this years later and say they were inspired by it, goddamn.

>>9495963
So this begs the question again, is everything released by a lolita brand still lolita, and is everything in the GLB still lolita?

Here is an old snap featuring a long dress, but this still was not the norm like it is now, it showed up far more sporadically back then.

>>9495965
Bottom left, in GLB 4

>>9495968
GLB 15, though this is a coat technically it is long

>>9495970
GLB 16

>>9495973
GLB Issue 18, classic dresses have always teetered on the longer side, but none like this >>9495549

>>9495974
breaking the rules, this is from GLB 21, but you all get my point by now

>>9495902
Nobody was even talking about fucking old-school, do you even read.

>>9495965

You can usually track it by each brand’s history.

- AP flirts with just about every other trending substyle. They did it with gyaru, fairy kei, and are doing it recently with larme and menhera.

- AatP covers lolita, boystyle and ouji — and for a while in 2008? 2011? they tended to have whatever release didn’t strictly fit in with btssb, such as that jsk with a really short skirt, and then shorts jumpers at some point.

So pretty much anything from either of these brands stands a pretty strong argument for being a non lolita item produced by a brand that normally produces lolita clothing.

On the other hand

- Btssb tends to push their less lolita releases onto AatP, so up until 2013 at least, anything btssb releases I’d take it as fully intended to be pure lolita.

- And whilst you’re thinking VM also has Beth and MmM differentiates between EGA and EGL, that’s not what I would argue. I would actually argue that I put both of these (sub)brands into pure lolita because they show very little outside influences. Unlike the AP collage in lolita general, you could practically re-release an older VM or MmM dress from 2002 and it’d fit in with their modern lineup. I don’t think Moitie has even changed their basic silhoutte much. So whatever they’re doing, it’s almost a non-issue, because they’ve been doing it since nearly the dawn of lolita.

Conversely, brands like Lapin Agill, Millefleur, because they are the lolita sub brand of a gothic brand, I’m inclined to see that they can be argued to have very strong gothic influence rather than lolita, as their roots lie in gothic first and lolita after.

Just my two cents on which brands are “canon” lolita anyway.

>>9495773
Larme followed that trend,they didn't create it.

>>9495871
>I don't see how heavy makeup is accepted at all.
You haven't seen droopy eyes and coloured eyeshadow? A few years back people wore actual stickers on their face. Misako and Rinrin still do.

>>9495920
Your future is now

>>9495445
>What do you think lolita will look like in the future?
I think brands like ETC and LG will become more acceptable as lolita again in the West, as the main sweet brands continue to focus on OTT.
>Will The Rules become more dated and irrelevant?
Yes
>What will/should become a new substyle/theme?
I think it's hard for a new theme to become accepted in the American lolita community. They seem really conservative when things like steam lolita come up even though it's been around for years. I hope neo lolita becomes more of a thing here.
>Will UTKs ever make a comeback?
I hope so but I don't see it happening. Maybe if they became trendy in normie fashion AP would jump on that.

>>9495965
>>9495963

>>9496099 Already said everything I wanted to perfectly, but I want to add it's "gothic and lolita" bible not "gothic lolita and lolita" bible. They put in whatever brands released and like hoodies, sneakers, and salopes they weren't necessarily lolita but lolita related and close enough for it to be included in the spectrum. While aristocrat isn't really a style in japan outside of Mana's EGA it's closer to that style wise.

>>9496857
Certain brands weren't really even that loliable.

>>9496860

>>9496863

I want minimalist lolita to become a new substyle/theme. It can have frills as long as they're not different fabrics or colours, and it's better without any frills. Blouses would look quite normie but with a 'lolita collar' (peter pan or sailor shaped). Preferably no princess sleeves, lace, or patterns. Never prints. Stick to 1-2 colours and 1 minimalist accessory. Try not to use many layers (long sleeved blouse instead of cardigan/bolero) and bonus points if your main-pieces use the same fabric. High quality fabrics and perfect silhouette make up for the lack of details. Only problem is I don't like the term minimalist lolita.

Next hot trend

>>9496933
I like the idea, anon, it looks really cute even though it's not what I'm personally into. I feel like it may cross over into peasant style clothing or like, children's church clothes kei especially if you used crosses or other religious motifs though. Perhaps geometric patterns or fabrics and clean tailoring could be part of it?

>>9496933
Minimal lolita sounds better than minimalist lolita. Or maybe clean lolita, simple lolita, plain lolita.. English is not my first language so Idk any synonyms for minimalist. Or we could use a french word for it to make it more elegant sounding.

>>9496088
It's implied in >>9495483, they're talking about how the fashion evolved on a timescale of years.

>>9496956
>fads in the timeframe of the past 5 years
>old-school
...you went full retard.
And I was talking about how the quality increased there, not actual evolution, for example how Wa started to be wearable and not only cosplay material.

>>9496947
delet this

>>9496954
What about- say- Casual lolita? Which these simple cute coords already are? BAKA

>>9496947
I have that same place mat

>>9496995
>how Wa started to be wearable and not only cosplay material.
Nayrt but what áre you talking about? It has become less wearable. Wa used to be dresses and skirts (partly) made with actual kimono fabric with traditional wa prints, now it's weeb prints and weeb cuts like pic related.

The point of this thread is to discuss how lolita has evolved, and the future of lolita, so comparing what substyles look like now vs oldschool vs the future is relevant.

>>9497008
You don't know what casual lolita is.

>>9497008
pic related is casual lolita IDIOT

>>9497014
I go way more casual than most gulls but that doesn't register as lolita at all to me desu.

>>9497012
>Wa used to be dresses and skirts (partly) made with actual kimono fabric with traditional wa prints
Good joke.

>>9497032
This is casual lolita, the substyle
>>9435295
Your personal opinion doesn't matter

>>9497036

>>9497040
There is a reason why it was called instant ita for over a decade.

>>9497046

>>9497050

>>9497051
And now we have things like:

>>9497058

>>9497061

>>9497064

>>9497036
That's ita now and it was ita back then, why do you think we told newbies not to do wa? I'm talking about what actual lolitas considered as wa lolita, not cosplay/conlitas.

>>9497070
Are you sarcastic because that's ita af.

>>9497070
> I'm talking about what actual lolitas considered as wa lolita, not cosplay/conlitas.
And this was considered lolita too by actual lolitas, doesn't make it any less ita. Just because it's brand it doesn't mean it isn't ita either.

>>9497086
Are you? What you posted as good wa lolita looks more similar to >>9497036
>>9497040
>>9497046
>>9497051
than what Meta used to release. And your bad examples of what wa used to be are mostly from bodyline-tier brands. I'm sorry you can't appreciate cute lolita cuts with an actual kimono print.

>>9497088
Wrong again, this is what we called ita.

>>9497086
Are you? What you posted as good wa lolita looks more similar to >>9497036 >>9497040 >>9497046 and >>9497051 than what Meta used to release. And your bad examples of what wa used to be are mostly from bodyline-tier brands. I'm sorry you can't appreciate cute lolita cuts with actual kimono prints.

>>9497086
Are you? What you posted as good wa lolita looks more similar to >>9497036 >>9497040 >>9497046 and >>9497051 than what Meta used to release (besides the length). And your examples of what wa used to be are mostly from bodyline-tier brands. I'm sorry you can't appreciate cute lolita cuts with actual kimono prints.

>>9497113
Metas kimono prints are notoriously labeled as Ita. Your shit taste doesn't make them any less known for it. They always pop up in "ugly brand" threads.

>>9497147
Sure, but explain to me how exactly this >>9497061 is more wearable and less cosplay than this >>9497113?

>>9497147
You don't get to pick and choose which brand you personally think is "ita" and what isn't. Meta is well known for quirkyness and this is no exception. Brand is still brand and it's a new trend you just can't seem to understand. It's not 2007 anymore, anon.

>>9497174
I didn't say meta was entirely ita, i said it's kimono prints are. Learn to read.

>>9497178
But the discussion is about whether wa Lolita has evolved to be more wearable and less cosplay

>>9497196
That doesn't change my statement at all. The person was implying those were cute and so I stated their opinion didn't change the fact those particular pieces from meta are ita. Seriously, learn to read.

>>9495549
This doesn't look lolita at all

>>9497058
I still regret not getting this one. Some of us love this kind of thing, it's lolita, it's styled lolita and despite some of y'all considering it ita, we will continue to like and wear it. Wa from brands and a few TaoBao sellers is not that popular but like old school, there's a group of people who are big fans of it and that's not going to change. If they didn't sell, (Meta and others) wouldn't continue to make them.

And yes, Wa dresses have evolved and with Kimono Hime styling coming out more, there is both crossover and evolution in the wa styling. Some Shiro nuri fans are blending lolita pieces and wa styling as well. So that is also an evolution.
(Though 'unpopular opinion' might be a better place for this since it's only a certain group who even likes wa styling at all. Still, it's happening.)

>>9497249
It's OTT classic. People have been saying 'not lolita' about JetJ for a long time now and guess what? Still a lolita brand. Maybe not something you'd personally like or wear but it's firmly in the fashion as lolita.

>>9497259
Are you high?
Just because something is released by a lolita brand doesn't mean it's lolita. By that logic, ouji released by aatp is lolita. It's related, sure, but it's not lolita.

>>9497346
Ouji is often listed as a subcategory of Lolita lol. I do get your point but you can't deny a lot of people wear those coords and post them to CoF without problem, would they do that if it's not Lolita?

>>9496933
Normie-lita.

But seriously, I like it.

>>9497355
It's related, but it's not lolita. If you only owned and only wore ouji, you wouldn't say you were a lolita.

>>9497346
There are people who only wear JetJ and similar classic brands and yes, it's lolita. It meets all the rules and criteria for lolita. What exactly would you call these JetJ and similar dresses if not lolita? The brand self-identifies as a Japanese lolita brand and I'm pretty sure it always has. Aatp calls their ouji things 'ouji' or boy style or prince. Why would people want to edge out OTT classic as a lolita style? It's a thing and has been for a while now.

>>9496857
Absolutely, people always seem to forget this. There was a lot of punk brand stuff in earlier bibles as well, not even gothic. That's why tsome of the arguments over ero grind my gears, because a lot of the "examples" are from straight-up gothic brands.

>>9497520
You're missing the point. To begin with, not everything released by a brand is lolita, though they may be a lolita brand. Look at ap's miniskirts--related, but not lolita, and closer to fairy kei than anything else. One could argue they could be used in casual lolita, but that's debatable.
The outfit in question, though related to lolita, with a dress released by a lolita brand, is not lolita. For that matter, some people don't agree that jetj is a lolita brand.

However, I'm an bitter oldfag, so make of that what you will.

>>9497546
Like you said, it's debatable, but the majority of the lolita's that are active online do consider coords like that lolita. Everything changes, you can't stop it.

>>9497546
The dress in question is made by a lolita brand, is being worn in a lolita fashion show at a lolita event.
I'm not speaking of mini skirts, salopettes, ouji, punk or goth things also made by lolita brands but the main line of a recognized lolita brand that rarely if ever makes anything BUT lolita clothing and accessories. JetJ has been an established lolita brand for a very long time. Many people do not LIKE them at all, there is no arguing that. But to say they are not lolita when the designer has spoken many times publicly about the fashion, they guest as lolita vendors at major conventions and lolita fashion is literally nearly all they even make and sell is frankly, absurd.

>>9498262
I think some people just really hate change in Lolita, I've seen people say jetj is not Lolita ever since amour d'amants came out. I kind of understand, I also sometimes still feel like shiny fabric is instant fail.

>>9498275
If chiffon overlays had come earlier and in quantity from any brand but AP people would have cried 'not lolita' about that too. But as >>9498228 says, change comes. It's perfectly fine to dislike something, a trend or even an entire brand but no one person or vocal few gets to say 'not lolita' about a brand like JetJ and be taken seriously. It won't stop of course, anymore than the replica-chans will suddenly stop wearing replicas or the people calling black sweet prints bittersweet will ever come to their senses.

>>9495920
>>9496399
More like 5 years in the past

>>9497238
>I don't like it so therefore it's ita!11!!!

>>9498275
It's always been like that. Even in 2007/2008 there were people who called JetJ non-Lolita during their chiffon era because the material and silhouette of the dresses clashed with the current idea of what is ideal in lolita back then. Their screen print dresses were also only liked by a minority. It's funny how these trends go full cirlce and change completely over time.

>>9496933
This is what I wore when I started wearing lolita 4-5 years ago. I often called out for being too normie looking heh.

>>9495492
>>9495532
Girl in my comm just made this blog post about the lolita rules. It's about which you can cross and which you can't.
I kind of agree with her, what do you guys think?
https://livlotte.blogspot.nl/2017/05/lolita-fashion-rules.html

>>9498634
I think it's good that she presented it as one person's opinion because most people will still agree that wearing a blouse and leg wear aren't optional at all, they are as much needed as the petticoat. Yes, it depends on your taste but also how much critique you will get if you post a photo and the criticism bothers you. I did not like her own coordinate example.

>>9495828
Holy fucking shit a dirndl

>can't remember if surfacespell is the popular taobao brand I can't fit into the bust of
>mfw I must own it anyway

>>9495828
Pretend national costume elements AND fuzzy ball fringe? Be still my hime kokoro.
/s
(Crazy Chinese designers ftw)

>>9498651
>my personal opinions aren't facts

Please.

>>9498898
Both of those things have been done before but ok

>>9498898
that pom pom trim shit is literally the most disgusting abomination ever in the world of fashion, I will never wear anything with it

>>9498634
I am happy to see that people are writing about the rules and how to experiment with them now. Would love to see more articles about how to exactly pull it off, instead of just saying you better shouldn't try at all

>>9501617
Not even Puppet Circus? Ok anon...

>>9503266
Mte, but it's not going to happen here. Even in this thread nobody really came with new ideas. Some people on cgl have such a defeatist attitude and hate any form of change. They just assume everyone is ugly and fat and can't coord.

>>9495445
>What do you think lolita will look like in the future?
More freedom to style editorially, but with some people also remaining within the rules and also the old school revival continuing.

>Will The Rules become more dated and irrelevant?
I think opinion will remain divided with some people really liking the rules, others diverging, with arguing.

>What will/should become a new substyle/theme?
OTT Gothic, and a revival of specifically old school Sweet. We don't need new sub styles but I think these will be the upcoming trends.

>Will UTKs ever make a comeback?
Personally, I think they are frumpy and the least flattering of all accepted lolita legwear but there's nothing really wrong with them if they go with the coord style. Some people always like them.

>>9505817
>We don't need new sub styles
But they're so fun!

>>9505826
I didn't mean it is a grumpy way, like 'no new fun ever', because I like change within the fashion.
I do find that subdividing past the sub-styles we already use can cause confusion and sometimes ongoing arguments. Like Bittersweet.

Has there really been any "new" substyle of lolita that stuck and became accepted by the majority?

>>9495445
>What will/should become a new substyle/theme?
Not really a substyle but I think soft lolita is a really cute term for non-lolita coords. Neo lolita seems more popular in Japan tough.

>>9505866
Pirate lolita, steam lolita (tough on cgl they're not all there yet). Every substyle after gothic and sweet was new once.

>>9497012
That's hilarious and wrong. Wa used to be weeb bait. Now it's worn most often by japanese and other asian lolitas. Qi used to be a rare ita staple. Now it's kind of nice.

>>9498354
Still sad this hasn't gotten more popularity but I guess I'll take my book shaped bags..

>>9505817
I think OTT gothic is already kind of happening. I definitely see an OTT sweet revival. That's what many girls fell in love with and what got them into lolita, so similarly with girls who missed out on the old school buying up and wearing old school, a lot of us are now doing it with old OTT sweet.

>>9507802
I really hope so!I don't want to wear normie things outside of lolita, soft lolita seems a nice option for anyone that cannot wear full lolita daily as Misako says.

>>9507863
I agree with you except that the new wa actually looks more weeby and the old meta wa dresses were better.

>>9507874
Have you seen the coords from her book? They're really cute and casual. I try to wear a darker version of this since on weekends I wear gothic lolita.

>>9507897
Yes I saw some!My color palette is mainly black with some red/white, I should buy something in pink but I wear mostly darker fashion looks that aren't all the time gothic. I think examples like Amavel, Fint, Axes or some larme kei OPs that are more frilly and 'otome like' could work as well for you!
This is an OP from Rose Marie Seoir (larme brand), i hope there is a black version as well.

>>9497088
BURN IT

>>9497088
That's always been used as an example of what ita is

>>9496933
I like this.

To be honest, I think there will be some mixing between larme aesthetics and lolita for a while (2 years max.), then since we'll be entering the 2020's or something, we might either go back to 'classical' pieces or get more colorful and a little bit experimental. Either way, soft lolita will become a thing, and nobody will confuse it with otome anymore.

>>9495826
S-source?

>>9496933
I feel like, petticoat aside, this is pretty much normie fashion. I wear things similar to that on a daily basis (sans petticoat) and nobody bats an eye

Don't get me wrong, it does look cute, but it breaks my heart to see an alternative fashion style, a Japanese super-out-there one, become something so normie-looking.

>>9495549
This is not lolita, it's a fucking ren faire costume.

>>9515135
Where do you draw the line? People have posted that picture in favorite lolita coord threads.

>>9514989
I think in the US it's still ''weird'' enough because people don't dress up when they do errands and stuff, they wear sweatpants

>>9497088
Visible and Marble have always been prime examples of ita

>>9497160
Do you know what cosplay is or are you just spouting the word because it's a bright, flashy print?

>>9498354
I'd love to see this over those skewer madonna crowns any day (pls no comeback)

>>9496933
So basically you wear whatever plain feminine stuff you find at the vintage store

>>9519589
No. You realise lolita is more than prints and lace?

Prediction: holographic fabrics will be widely accepted. subgenre will be called neo-lolita.

>>9521494
ugh please no. holo is so tacky and hideous. it doesn't suit the cuteness or elegance of lolita at all.

>>9521495
Galaxy prints weren't elegant either, lolita doesn't always have to be elegant.

>>9515135
I'm sorry you've never seen JetJ in your life before.

>>9514989
People would definitely bat an eye at this where I live, I can see it seeming normie in a capital city but in every smaller city and town I've lived in this would seem super out there, even sans petticoat. It reads as fancy wedding/occasion clothes so it seems weird to wear to the supermarket on a Thursday evening.

>>9496933
NGL, I find this quite interesting as a concept even if it's barely lolita. I've always been a sucker for extremely minimalist, clean lines in lolita, like some Moitie and Boz releases.

Remember when people used to be against polkadots in lolita

>>9501617
Pompom trim and ricrac are the bane of my existence.

>>9505746
Nayrt but I never liked Puppet Circus. If it somehow materialised in my closet I would immediately sell it on.

>>9507806
Those are themes, not sub styles. Historically-influenced pirate is classic, cutesy pirate is sweet, etc. Most 'steam' lolita I've seen is just classic lolita in brown with a corset or cincher on top, or sweet lolita in muted colours with a steam print.

>>9519328
>>9521573
I also live in a shithole where ANY skirt or dress gets me stares and "you going to a wedding?" comments, but that doesn't mean that my plain dresses from normie stores somehow became alt fashion. If what anon posted wouldn't look remotely out of place in many cities around the world, and aside from the RHS it wouldn't, it's not alt fashion.

>>9496860
Wait A+Lidel does have at least a few actual lolita pieces, Right? I swear I've seen some.

>>9497249
It actually looks more rococo style that what we consider the ideal lolita. I think that's why OTT classic became so popular, because it chanelled dresses with lots of material, accessories, and being able to stick shit like birds and fruit on your head without having to be OTT sweet, which sadly, was never meant to last.
I predict next that we'll start seeing a lot Of bad OTT gothic and that it will become the next trend. I just feel it.

>>9521916
you're just arguing about words now. In my comm they use substyle as a synonym for theme and so do several lolita guides and books, we don't care about the original English meaning