/cgl/ - Cosplay & EGL

>>9454445
Doubtful, it's like asking why there are different degrees of handbags. Apt. 9 has nice stuff, but it isn't on the same level as Tiffany Co. It's a combo of a higher quality and the 'brands' being the first ones on the scene, or made famous by celebs. So companies like AP, MM, and BTSSSB were the pioneers of the fashion and are the largest brands with the most money selling the high quality dresses for $$$ (quality as of late is questionable with some stuff but w/e). Off brand or indie brands probably won't escalate to brand status just because they weren't really big at the beginning with a huge name for themselves, if that makes sense.

>>9454449
Another factor that kind of plays into that high status is how recognizable the product is. AP dresses are super easy to spot from their prints to the kinds of lace they use, just like MM is very easy to identify with its unique look. I'm sure there are indie brands that are way higher quality than burando, but they don't have that same status attached to them.

>>9454445
Royal Princess Alice kinda of emerged as a brand and a lot of people consider Haenuli to be a brand

>>9454445
reputation and signature looks/designs

>>9454453
who tf thinks haenuli is brand?????

>>9454453
Haenuli is definitely not brand. I'm guessing fattychans regard it as brand since it's one of the few decent companies they can buy from that actually fits them.

What does everyone consider to be brand? As far as I can it's: MmM, AP, Baby, Meta, IW, VM, MM, and JetJ. Maybe Boz and Pierrot? Excentrique, TF, Millefleurs, and Enchantilly are still considered indie right?

>>9454474
Yeah but AP and Meta have been fatty brands since forever.

To me, a lolita brand has to

1. Be featured in a Kera/GLB spread (and not as an adverisement)
2. Have atleast 75% of what they release be consistent with the general lolita aesthetic

I don't really consider anything from Taobao a brand with a capital 'B' yet, they're just indie for now, doing mostly print on demand services and not selling staples like blouses or socks, everything is just a print and a series. Small brands like Chocochip cookie, Marble, Visible, Heart E and MAM may not be popular overseas but their GLB and Kera presence still gives them brand status, just small. I think there are big brands, small brands, and indie brands.

Those stores became brand because most of them were there since day 1, in the GLB since day 1. They helped influence lolita trends, their clothes contributed to developing the lolita aesthetic. I think it would be hard now, in todays saturated market, for something indie to become a major brand.

Is it possible for something to be considered brand if it wasn't designed in Japan?

>>9454482
Moitie, AP, BTSSB, Meta, and IW and precious burando. A quarter step down for me is Victorian Maiden, Mary Magdalene, and AATP. I know AATP is an offshoot of BTSSB, but because of that I feel they're just below what BTSSB pushes out.

And yeah, AP and Meta have had fatty friendly dresses but not to the extent of Hanueli, those dresses can be gigantic, like morbidly obese sized.

>>9454518
This is gonna be moot now that glb is defunct.

>>9454527
Yeah, I meant to add that now that the magazines are gone who we define brand will be different.

>>9454453

>RPA

You sure about that? I've seen people worship it on the same level of Vierge Vampiur, mostly because there's one or two dresses they'd give their newborns for. But outside of that tiny handful of girls, you'd actually have to stop and explain what RPA or Vierge Vampiur are. Pretty sure most girls put them firmly into Japanese indie and not brand brand.

>>9454542
I've never heard of RPA but I love Vierge Vampur

>>9454542
Royal Princess Alice does similar prints to AP though, Haenuli has some customer service problems as in sending dresses that look way different than the stock picture. And some Chinese brands probably paid a ton to get into GLB or worked hard to get a Japanese distributor. You've never seen western indie brands in glb bc they don't make enough stuff and promotion (number wise, tb brands can have high MOQ since there's so many Chinese lolitas) When was the last time you saw a Western indie brand dedicate time for a photo shoot outside of a con? Not very often...

Baroque got the Japanese market by doing collabs with Sakizo & doing proper marketing on twitter. I see a lot of Chinese brands getting twitter accounts that are exclusively in Japanese for that reason and participating in Artism Market, Design Festa, etc for connections within the Japanese community). On the other hand, Chinese lolitas proved that they can have high scale events exclusively for lolitas at Girlism Fashion Fest, having a 40/60 split between CH & JP brands. Girlism mag is here to stay since the Chinese lolita community is growing more than the JP community (a numbers thing).

http://m.bilibili.com/video/av10160016.html

>>9454518
>>9454542
Royal Princess Alice appeared on GLB with other indie brands.

>>9454449
I don't think you know what "offbrand" means

>>9454526
Aww, that makes me a little sad to hear. I wear a lot of classic and VM and MM are staples and the stuff of dreams for me. Why do you consider them lower, if you don't mind me asking?

>>9454453
RPA looks like taobao shit anyway. I think people consider it brand because it comes from glorious Nippon.

>>9454445
- Well established. Being in business for years, especially during old school era. If not a business from around then, old designers that create new brands can get brand status easily based on their old reputation (Sheglit and Leur Getter).
- Quality. Probably the hardest factor for any indie brand to beat. There always seems to be a gap in quality between brand and indie.
-Being an actual brand. Most brands aren't as big as you'd think, but what what separates their small staff from an indie brand is a lot. Marketing, copyright, being an actual label vs. whatever someone sews in their room to put on their website.

>>9454526
Sorry you can't fit into MM and VM.

>>9454706

None of these make RPA ~burando~ though, for that matter it doesn't really make Baroque ~burando~ either.

>>9454713 even says it clearly -- it appears in the GLB with other **indie** brands. If they're that small I don't know if I can consider them ~burando~. They're a brand, certainly, and they have fans, certainly. But can you really put them on the same level as btssb, AP and the like?

>>9454445
They were real, authentic lolita brands when lolita became known here and egl livejournal started. There are no specific things you can look at to decide if it's burando or not, we just know. You shouldn't try to analyse it.

>>9454445
They were real, authentic lolita brands when lolita became known here and the egl livejournal comm started. There are no specific things you can look at to decide if it's burando or not, it's not based on logic or facts. For example, Mary Magdalene hardly releases anything but we just know it's brand, it always was and always will be. You shouldn't try to analyse it. If you look at a brand and think "in my opinion it's brand because it does x and x well" you're probably a newfag.

>>9454525
No

Apart from decent quality, I only consider labels as "brands" that were established from the very beginning and have played a major part in the evolution of the fashion and it's following. And labels that were around when the key lolita aesthetic was formed (e.g. what is considered as oldschool today). So brands that were around in the 80s/90s or very early 2000s and featured in the ealry GLBs.

>>9454525

If we're talking brand as in Meta, Baby, AP etc, then it's going to be hard.

A huge part of it is history. Look, these brands are so old, there’s probably a whole generation of lolitas younger than the companies themselves. You can’t even describe lolita history without marking some of them with brand releases — the rise of OTT pastel sweet can be tied to AP, Shimotsuma Monogatari comes with btssb releases, Meta is the first brand to ship overseas, etc etc. At this point the brands are pretty solidly part of lolita history.

Brands outside of Japan? I’ve watched the rise and fall of ITS, La Dauphine, and many others. I was here when taobao brands were only making replicas of varying quality. I was here when some indies were just some seamstress posting some homemade dresses to egl. They’re so new and shiny, another year a handful of indie brands simply stop producing things and stop updating their websites. And if you dig through some existing shops, the really old, dodgy releases are still there, still dodgy, and still terrible quality. How am I supposed to speak of any of these brands with awe, when they were barely making anything decent five years ago, and may or may not be around another five years into the future?

They want to be brand? Give them another 50-70 years, and have them step up and do things that really change up lolita. As of right now, all I see is Krad scalping their international customers so that they can be “the next AP” as their master move. And I’m not about to respect them for that, no matter how many tea parties they throw.

>>9454901
>there’s probably a whole generation of lolitas younger than the companies themselves

How can you claim to be an oldfag if you don't know that AP has been around since the 70s and Baby the 80s?

>>9454526
You're an idiot.

>>9454917

Dude that's like asking how old your grandparents are. All I know is they were already here by the time I got in.

>>9454787
Because anon has shit taste. VM is literally the mother of classic lolita and has better construction, nicer fabric selection, and more flattering cuts than any of the sweet brands.

>>9454787
Brand also has the popularity factor, so as much as I love VM (most of my dream dresses are from VM) I feel like because it's not as popular and wide scale as the really big brands it's the slightest bit lower on the brand scale. And I think the only reason VM and MM aren't as popular is just because classic isn't super popular like sweet.

Do you anons consider LIEF brand?

>>9455009

It's an indie brand -- indie brands are small, independent (hence "indie") businesses, sometimes they're so small that everything is done by only one or two people. Both Lief and Haenuli fall into this category, and you can see how delicate their entire business is when Haenuli had to go to the hospital and her business more or less stopped since she was the one doing everything.

Ironically enough, the only non-Japanese brands I've seen make it past indie stage are Infanta and To Alice, and neither are regarded all that highly Infanta is seen as pandering to coslolis and To Alice as cheap fast fashion for weebs.

>>9454526
As a lolita of ten years..... Victorian Maiden and Mary Magdalene are definitely brand.

>>9455716
I agree but I'm new. Would you say black peace now was brand?

>>9456420
BPN was DEFINITELY a brand.

>>9454482
I consider Boz and AtPie brand but I'm goth/aristo so that probably influences my thinking

>>9454813
Agreed.

>>9454965
VM is queen. Their quality is far superior to BtSSB as well, even though I love both brands.

>>9456434
how long do boz and atpie exist?

>>9454965
Triggered much, Jesus

>>9454998
I think the reason they're less popular in the west is sizing-related, especially since classic has been becoming more and more popular over the last few years. That said I love both VM and MM and have pieces by both

>>9456508
I mean is the sizing really that small? It looks pretty normal to me. The girls I've seen wear it generally look like a US 4-6, the way people (((fatties))) act about VM and MM make it sound like you have to be a 0-2 to even have a prayer of fitting.

>>9456516
If you're a healthy sized woman and not super tall or big-breasted, you'll fit VM and MM. Their measurements are small compared to other lolita brands but other lolita brands are actually SUPER generous in their sizing. It always confuses me so much when people complain about lolita brands being small. There are dresses that go up to 95cm in the waist! By Asian fashion standards, lolita is huge.

>girl posts to comm page asking where to find lolita clothing for "full bodied" women
>cites waist measurement as 120cm
>whines about inaccessibility of Japanese brands
what did you expect woman you're morbidly obese holy fuck

>>9456516
That's exactly the sizing, but a LOT of lolitas in the us at least are closer to a 14-16 than a 4-6. I don't fault VM or MM about their sizing, personally I like the inaccessibility aspect of these brands and MMM. But I think it does play a role in how these brands are received in the west.

>>9456560
Okay that's what I thought, lol my bust is on the larger side but nothing that a good sports bra can't handle.
>120 cm WAIST

WHAT

>>9456516
I wear a US 6 and don't have incredibly huge tits (36C) and I have a hard time fitting into MM. I got a dream dress from MM a year ago since the measurements listed seemed to fit mine but when I tried it on it gave me a terrible boobloaf and I could barely breathe. It fit my waist fine but the chest measurement is where I had most of my problems. I'm Asian and most of the Jfash/Kfash stuff I buy online fits me fine otherwise.

I love classic and I'd buy from MM and VM more often if they offered slightly larger sizing or more shirred pieces. It kind of makes sense why AP and other brands are popular in the west like >>9456564 mentioned due to the availability of larger sizes.

>>9456508
Agree that the sizing for VM/MM is likely the main barrier to having more market share in the west. It's also what helps them maintain their cuts and designs so I don't blame them for not expanding their sizing.

I will say that because I started out with VM/MM/Boz when I first got into lolita, getting BtSSB or AP after was a bit of a disappointment. There's a very obvious difference in quality and material choices depending on release for Baby/AP, while the consistency is always there for VM. (can't lump in MM considering they've had their share of shitshows with certain releases)

>>9456576
Same, I am technically within MM measurements on some releases (just a bit smaller than you, probably shorter, too) but it is horribly tight and uncomfortable. I don't get it, I don't like shirring but corset lacing and a couple extra cms on the shoulders and bust would make VM and MM so much more popular with size 4-6 (average size US lolitas). It seems like there are a lot of us around this size, and that would explain why IW is so much more popular

>>9456739
Oops meant to reply to >>9456607 not the other anon

>>9456420
It's not really a lolita brand but you could wear the pieces for a lolita coordinate. It's really more of a gothic brand.

How does everyone feel about F+F?

>>9456420
RIP BPN.

>>9456739
Yes, exactly! I own a ton of IW and while I love MM, I don't really feel like shelling out money for something that might not even fit me even if I am within their listed measurements.

I understand wanting to maintain a look since they are a fashion brand but giving people a bit of wiggle room would probably boost their sales numbers.

>>9456607
36C is pretty big though. Your ribcage alone is ten inches larger than my waist and I'm far from skinny. Maybe you're big boned?

>>9456628
This, they mostly do A-line cuts and those look best on slender people.

>>9457536
I fluctuate between 34-36 depending on the bra brand because some of them sit weird and my underbust measurement is actually 34".Most of the bras I own are 36C though. I'm a short 5" Asian so I'm not sure if I would consider myself big-boned but I know my boobs are genetic because my mother and grandmother both have something like F cups.

Most of my friends (also 5 foot something Asian girls) tend to be around my bra size and they've also complained about being unable to fit into MM because of their boobs. Ironically, the only friend I have who could probably fit the chest measurements comfortably is too tall to wear lolita dresses without an underskirt.

>>9456516
VM has gotten bigger in its sizing with time. I remember back in the oldschool days most of their stuff only having a waist of like 62cm, in the late 2000's they have gone bigger with usually a waist of around 68cm and now most of their unshirred pieces even have a waist of 70cm. MM has barely changed at all, even though many of their newer pieces have shirring. So newer releases are definitely more accomondating and even suited for the skinnyfat or (if you aren't tall for Japanese standards) chubby girls out here.

Old sizing though was small, even for thin people. When I was skinnyfat and still a size 6, I was already too fat for many pieces. You really have to be 2-3cm under the garment measurents in order to properly fit into those pieces. I had to get skinny and to reduce my bust from 86cm to 84cm, and waist from 67cm to 64cm so I can fit into old MM and VM. And there are still some pieces I don't fit into, even though I'm basically skin and bones right now.

I'm glad that these brands slighly adjusted their sizes already, but I personally think they shouldn't push it further. A part of their appeal and their aesthetic would be gone if they did so.

>>9457031

F+F is *the* original Chinese replica shop, anon. Not only that but they also stole designs and undercut a (nonlolita) indie brand that tried to use them as a supplier, introducing the rest of the world to how dishonorable Chinese business practices are.

These aren't dark spots in your history that gets forgotten lightly. I think they might even rank lower than Bodyline for that.

>>9457692
I put them on the same level as sex/costume shop bodyline

>>9454453
I think the only reason people consider RPA a brand is because they are Japanese. There's so many indie brands that are better and more established than them that don't get treated with half as much respect -.-

>>9457729
RPA doesn't get much respect lol, the only reason people ever mention them here is to hate

>>9456516
>>9456560

It’s not so much that VM and MM are “smol”. It’s more that they’re a fixed size. There’s often entire series that don’t have shirring OR corset lacing, and if you get ahold of a jsk the shoulder straps are almost never adjustable. It’s easy to hit the bust and waist measurements, but throw in the height/torso measurement required to make sure your bust and waist sit where they’re supposed to, and the pool gets smaller. And when you get to the OPs with fixed shoulder widths and fixed sleeve lengths/widths, it’s no longer a question of being size 4-6, the difference between being size 4 or size 6 can mean you can’t lift your arms or can’t breathe, or you look like a ten year old playing dressup in your mommy’s dresses.

Whereas with AP, Baby, Meta, IW — they may do one cut in a fixed size, but quite often they’ll have another cut that can be adjusted with shirring/lacing, adjustable shoulder straps, so a much wider range of body types can wear them — both taller and shorter, skinnier and fatter.

Sure, you could be that one shop that only ever makes perfect form-fitted dresses in exactly size 4. But you can’t really be surprised if all the other sizes simply stop paying attention to your shop because you only make size 4 dresses.

>>9457762
Ahhh gotcha, that's a shame. They have some of the most gorgeous dress on the market with some of the highest quality. It'd be nice to see them expand a bit size wise, but I'm guessing if they haven't done it by now they probably won't do it.
I didn't realize they're sizing was so restricted, I just thought it was one of the companies that never make anything about size 6, not making things literally one size for one body type per dress

>>9457838
>I'm guessing if they haven't done it by now they probably won't do it.
Don't quote me on this but supposedly VM's designer said in the interview in Omnia Vantias that she would consider making larger sizes that will suit the western market better, so maybe it will happen one day.

>>9457845
A VM designer also said that at Anime North. It seems like they are really considering it.

>>9457730
A lotttt of not-seagulls get super excited about RPA being at shows in the US and watch their updates like people watch AP.

>>9457031
They occasionally (maybe twice a year) have a really nice looking dress that is more than I'd want to pay for Chinese questionable quality. I got one of them and it looks great but I've seen other people wear f+f that looks cheap and shitty. Maybe it's the difference between their super cheap releases and the more expensive ones

>>9457692
Bodyline stole fruits parlor and another print iirc. Pretty much same tier shop

>>9457838

Form-fitting dresses is part of their aesthetic, actually. The lack of rumply shirred fabric and extra buttons is what makes their designs look so elegant -- when they fit the wearer, or rather, when the wearer fits their one size. This is why mainstream brands have dress sizing in the first place, so that they can sell fitted dresses to different body sizes/types/shape.

I actually don't know how VM is going to go about adding extra sizing. They don't really seem big enough to support having the usual range of sizes.

>>9457838
Yeah don't blindly trust their measurements. It's very frustrating, I have literally never had a problem fitting into brand before but my shoulders are somehow too broad to fit MM nicely

>>9457913

And Bodyline has all that drama with creepy Mr Yan.... All right, point taken. I guess they can both share bottom rung on the burando pecking order.

>>9457913
They sold replicas of IW's François, and IW's house purse and Moitie's bat shaped purse too.

>>9457924
Absolutely and I love that look, it's extremely flattering and elegant, just a pity their sizing caters to such a small market, reading some of the posts here I doubt my bust would be able to fit their dresses and I'm probably a bit too tall to the point the form fitting waist wouldn't hit my waist right and I would look silly (like I already do in old school dresses :c )
I could see them having success if they constructed their dresses following American proportions like on an American size 6 dress the bust is usually built to hold B/C but you can squeeze a D in there using a tighter bra vs Asian sizing construction where if you have Ds you're pretty much fucked if there isn't shirring of some kind. It'd be really cool to see custom sizing of some sort, but I've always wondered if custom sizing is worth the hassle compared to the money you make from it,

Do people consider ETC and JM brand or does the fact that most of their dresses are considered more otome put them in a different category from "burando"

Like I wouldn't put them in the same category as something like Liz Lisa, they're more like a crossover between lolita and non-lolita j-fashion imo.

>>9457729
I don't know. Sheglit is amazing quality and Japanese and they don't get treated like brand and fawned over the way RPA does. I think it's the prints coupled with the famous models that gets RPA that treatment

>>9457946

If they haven't offered custom before, it usually means they'll have to hire additional, expensive skilled workers to do it, so it's usually not worth it to offer it.

I don't know, it'll be interesting to see if things do take off. I'm still not sure it's possible to order directly from them (they used to have a sign that said they refuse to ship to Tenso or something.), so to hear that they're actually considering larger sizes to cater for the international market is a much better sign than I expected.

>>9454445
I feel as if people use these labels incorrectly. brand is kind of a broad term to apply to certain brand names like AP or Btssb. Why no use the terms from haute couture/fashion world? Couture, pret-a-porter(ready-to-wear), terms like this? Why were these labels not used?

>>9457952
>Do people consider ETC and JM brand or does the fact that most of their dresses are considered more otome put them in a different category from "burando"
That's kind of difficult to answer. Both brands are around since forever and influenced lolita fashion a lot. Their customer base often being intrested in lolita as well and using otome items in their lolita coords definitely qualifies them as lolita friendly at least.There is no doubt in that. But counting them as one of the original lolita "brands" is a bit far stretched I guess?

Also going from the viewpoint of these brands, I'd say that JM qualifies less as a brand than ETC.

I can't remember the GLB featuring ETC, but ETC used to regularly have spreads in older Kera mags with new releases, outfit tutorials, daily lolita challenges and so on. Back then country and casual lolita were more popular and that are definitely some substyles that ETC can be worked into. So it makes sense that they got loosely associated with lolita in Japan.

JM never had that association with lolita in Japan and it was never intended by the designer to be lolita-friendly. That's why JM never collaborated with Kera or the GLB.
It just happened over time that JM became more popular among lolitas since there many items that also vaguely fit the lolita aesthetic and it's already a bit similar to ETC so it's a natural progression that was made over time.

>>9458010

Anon, they're all pret-a-porter. Most of them don't even offer custom sizing, and the ones that do aren't high enough to be haute.

>>9456460
Long before GLB lol

>>9458017
ETC advertised in GLB sometimes. JM was worn by lolitas, you can see it in old streetsnaps.

>>9454813
But AP looks like Taobao shit these days too, so it isn't brand anymore? Plus some Taobao stuff actually looks better than jp brands, more so when it comes to the more-known Taobao lolita stores.

>>9457934
>Moitie's bat shaped purse
Which was never very original to begin with as that and coffin bags have been around since forever, even Swimmer released a bat purse like that.

>>9458034
I know that JM was worn by lolitas, the brand itself didn't and still doesn't want to be associated with lolita though.

>>9457934
>Moitie's bat shaped purse
Not to excuse F+F but that was never very original to begin with as bat and coffin bags exactly like this have been around since forever, even Swimmer released those.

>>9458056
Japanese normies see both as lolita tough

>>9454526
Anon, you don't know what you're talking about. MM and VM are definitely brand and AatP is every bit as high quality as Baby. Not to mention, AatP has become more popular than Baby th past few years.

>>9457946
There's also the fact that certain cuts look better on certain body types and not others. I've lost track of the number of coordinates I've seen on mannequins that look lovely but look like a minor trash fire on the owner of said mannequin. Included are girls who would be considered small - medium by US sizing standards, so it's not just a fat person thing.

Just because someone fits into a given outfit doesn't mean it's actually flattering on them.

>>9458074
And many Japanese normies can't tell the difference between Moitie and AP or any alt brand really, but that doesn't mean that suddenly gothic and sweet are the same thing?