/cgl/ - Cosplay & EGL

http://bigcatrescue.org/cub-abuse-at-colossalcon-kalahari-resort/

>>8466982
Hahaha damn that sucks. People will fucking complain about everything and anything. Might cause a small stir up but I'm sure it will blow over.

Sorry, but I agree that it's absolutely trashy and disgusting to let random people manhandle endangered species just because they have cash in hand, especially a bunch of socially retarded weebs.

I was at the Kalahari once for a different convention several years ago, and the baby tigers were on display in the lobby. They seemed pretty freaked out by the packs of screaming little children running around their pen, so I can only imagine how distressing a ~hands on session~ must be for them.

Seriously, fuck this.

>>8467063
This because fuck sea world

>>8467063
Big Cat Rescue did this last year, too. 4chan is a horrible place to broadcast these sorts of things but, I completely agree with you.

I feel sorry for these poor circus attraction cubs that will outgrow their cuteness and be killed or thrown in some room. Having a pack of screaming, squealing weebtards running up and touching them, snapping pictures, making all sorts of noises will put these cubs in stress.

Stressed cats = dead cats.

>>8468061

Source on the Big Cat Rescue action from last year? Not skeptical, just legit curious.

>>8468061
I'm not sure where to get it. I just remember they posted on cgl about raising awareness for this type of activity after last year's Colossalcon but the thread was deleted.

I got really excited because I thought this had to do with babyfurs and would be a legendary horror story

LOL people that aren't vegans complaining about animal cruelty.

>>8468187
you do realize not many people eat big cats right? You don't have to be vegan to care about animals. You aren't required to care about every fucking animal ever.

The fact is these cubs are taken from their mothers to be handled by people who don't know what they're doing and it freaks the little babies out. Wild animals aren't meant to be handled like this. Again what will happen to them once they're no longer cute cubs? Probably sold off to rich idiots who think they can live in a tiny cage and be kept as a pet.
"Oh but the cubs were calm when we played with them"
They're suppose to be learning how to take care of themselves by their mothers. They need to learn skills that they will not get when they're bottle fed by a big titted idiot cosplaying LoL.

They're a wild fucking animal, not an accessory to your costume.

>>8468211
What an idiotic question. No fucking shit.

Either way, it is just humans excusing what they do but not what other people do. Most farm animals are treated terribly, but we don't give a shit. We keep eating them.

"Oh but if it is a cute tiger it is different"

Yeah okay. Very logical.

>>8468216
I'd be just as mad if they had cows at a con and people were just using them as props too. The only animal I've ever seen treated well for cosplay has been dogs, which are social animals and only need water and food.

A cow is not a fucking baby though, and the cub is. That's why I'm mad. I'd love for them to sell tickets to "play" with an adult tiger. So many idiots would get fucked up.

Also vegans are fucking idiots "don't support bee farmers! They hurt the bees!" Yes a person who gives the bees a safe shelter to live in and properly cares for the bees is abusing them.

>>8468216
>WHAT ABOUT ALL THESE OTHER TERRIBLE THINGS
>YOU HAVE NO RIGHT TO BE MAD ABOUT BIG CAT ABUSE
nice logic bro

>>8468303

more like

> animals only matter if they are cute

I actually signed this shortly after colossal con. I'm glad it's a thing. I did that random photo thing and the way they treated the baby on the table made me cut the session real short. Waking up a baby only to be shoving and taking away a bottle as it tries to eat and pushing it's face up for 15 minutes trying to get the perfect photo? Nah man. I'd rather just see them in a sanctuary.

>>8468216
Just because other bad things happen doesn't mean they aren't allowed to be upset at this bad thing.

>>8468187
Beito kun des

>>8468320
You hit the nail on the head.

Also "You aren't required to care about every fucking animal ever." really proves a point. No one is saying that you can't care about one thing but not a lot of other things. However, when you take a step back and think about it logically, it makes you look like a hypocrite that is just jumping on the internet activism train.

>>8468339
That's really upsetting to hear. If the animal is trying to eat then taking away food just to get it to look pretty for a picture is pretty wtf.

>>8469025
You still don't seem to get it. The people who attend Colossalcon want to know if the program they participate in is abusive, and if it is they want it shut down. Obviously people are going to get more up in arms over an issue that hits closer to home, or one that has an easy-to-sign petition. I get that the view from your high horse is great and all, but I don't see what your goal is, unless it's either 1) to tell people they should plug their ears and not care, or 2) to sound smart.

>>8468339
Sounds like a similar video that's circulating https://youtu.be/SkwdWx983HQ

>>8468211
All of this bitching would be of greater value if you went out and physically protested the poachers as well as the governments that continue to let natural habitats be torn down so that the animals can life in the wild, safely. Unfortunately that means you need to fly over to India, china, indonesia, wherever and live in less than comfortable conditions to do less than comfortable and possibly dangerous things. Instead, never leave the safety of your comfortable chair never having to lift a finger except to type. So lets throw a shitstorm online! That'll make a REAL difference guise! Think of all the lives of babby animals that will be saved from the hands of evil anime conventions!

>>8469053
It's so cute when you guys bitch about armchair activists not doing enough when your solution is.... to do even less. But hey it's either devote your life to a cause or plug your ears, amirite!

I agree that armchair activism doesn't do much, but publicly shaming the Kalahari into releasing more information about their cubs is a good start imo.

Do you have the necessary training and experience with big cats for your lack of "vibes" to really mean anything? I'm not asking that to be rude, but that's the most common thing people say when siding with this type of thing. Hell, that's even the most common defense people use in favor of Sea World. The thing is, you have to be expert level with a given animal to be able to conclude it's fine based on "vibes".
>>8467052
I don't think legitimate concern about animal cruelty falls into the category of people complaining about anything.
>>8468216
Yeah, I gotta say, I judge people who only give a shit when it's cute animals. I understand caring more based on the animal's intelligence level, like obviously there's a difference between squishing a fly and randomly killing dolphins or whatever, but I never see anyone pick and choose based on that, just whatever animals they think are cooler.

Cows aren't endangered, most big cats are.

This is why nobody likes vegans.

>>8468135
I remember that too. It was mostly a lot of capslocking and not very useful information.

Cross-posting the only actual documents I've seen circulated about the organization because for some reason there's two threads about this. Search for Kalahari or Wild Acres Ranch:

http://www.vargfakta.se/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/HSUS-Overview-of-captive-wildlife-issues-in-Ohio-20-mars-2012.pdf

http://bigcatrescue.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/ZAA-Factsheet.pdf

>>8469064
Another one was 'eating meat is the same as hunting for sport as both are done for pleasure' - a preachy vegan to me on one of Ricky Gervais' anti-hunting Twitter updates

>>8469063

There are claims that the cubs were malnutritioned.

The cubs I photographed looked plump and healthy. They were bottle feed or given meat during my shoot and they weren't forced to stop eating just for photos.

There are claims that they are mishandled by staff and the resort guests during the shoot like being poked and prodded to stay awake.

When our lion cub started looking sleepy, our session was over so it could stay asleep. When the tiger cub who was a bit older was restless, he was removed from the guests for his and our safety, fed, played with, and returned when he was more calm. All while staff where hovering over us to make sure we weren't doing anything stupid to harm them or get ourselves hurt.

Honestly I think the cub meet experience is really good for people to develop more of a connection with the animals so that they can respect them more.

What upsets how much hypocricy there is related to what meat you can eat - cow is fine but dogs and cats are not?

Also this programs are fine as long as they are properly managed and the funds are transparent. Well-done programs raise awareness.

>>8469279
Being a vegan is fucking expensive. Idk how anyone can afford it, that shit's a privilege. Places like Whole Foods is way over priced, I'll stick with my poor man meats and groceries.

>>8469328
Being super fit and healthy and eating interesting, tasty food might be expensive. Just being vegan isn't. Lots of people can't afford meat or eggs.

>>8469294
I'm really glad the cubs were treated well when you saw them, but videos like >>8469048 still worry me (even though this is a different Kalahari)

All you people crying out against the baby tigers. You all buy anime and help support Japan's economy. They hunt and kill whales and dolphins which is illegal. You are indirectly supporting whaling. GUESS THE LIVES OF AQUATIC CREATURES DONT MATTER AS MUCH AS FUZZY ONES. CONGRATULATIONS YOU HAVE WHALE BLOOD ON YOUR HANDS.

>cub abuse

Fucking furries

Fuck whales

>>8469393
This was our plan all along! Fuck whales man. They keep stretching out our brando.

>>8469328
You can be vegan without shopping at Whole Foods

>>8469296
Meh, dogs and cats are more of a social stigma. Americans don't want to eat anything mammals that are cute or can be considered a family member. Go elsewhere and you'll find cats, dogs, guinea pigs, and etc. on the dinner plate.

>>8469048
What is that lady shoving in the cub's face? Is there something on it to make it pull back it's face like that?

>>8469332
Actually, they can with food stamps. It's just super low quality, and a lot of them are lacking an understanding behind calories and fat content and stuff. When you're poor you get what's easiest to make, not what's healthiest. It's a very sad way of living. And then everyone behind you in the line at the grocery store groan in frustration when you pull out your food stamps, like how dare this poor person step foot into MY grocery store! Such an inconvenience!

>>8469393

>>8469633
Brits got Very Upset because we eat reindeer in my country (and how dare you kill poor widdle Rudolph!)
It's pathetic.

>>8469872
Looks like a frisbee to me.... at a guess she's blowing air into its face, or just getting the plastic close enough that it wants to back up.

>>8469872
She has a cloth which might have something that smells on it that the cub's reacting to, most of the other things are things to try and get the cub's attention

Lmao are butt flustered vegans itt seriously trying to draw a comparison between tigers and farm animals? Yeah I'd have to say the comfort and safety of the species hovering on the brink of extinction due to capitalistic excess trumps that of the farm animals with populations in the billions. Sorry this is more than a 'cuteness' issue. Human beings shouldn't have the right to handle tigers, or any other critically threatened species unless they're trained professionals working in a zoo or nature conservatory. The end.

>>8469328
>implying Wholefoods is Vegan
Organic!=vegan

BCR is basically the animal rights equivalent of the anti-GMO party.

If you don't support cub petting, don't, but if you're spending your time "fighting for animal rights!" by trying to shame a 17k+ person convention just because it's hosted in a venue that does cub petting, you're a moron. This is on the Kalahari's shoulders, not Colossalcon's, and BCR's continuing crusade against the con proves how much of a joke they are and how everything they say should be taken with a grain of salt.

BCR has been shitting about this for over 3 years, and the only thing they're succeeding at is being a cantankerous, self-righteous annoyance.

Donnell has made a post about this in the Colossalcon Facebook group to have a civil discussion about it. He is open to hearing factual information about the "abusive nature" of cub petting. This is NOT the first time the discussion has been had in the Facebook group, yet each time it's brought up, not a single person can actually verify the claims BCR makes.

No profits are made from the baby tiger passes. Whether its for photos in the lobby or out on the lawn for the VIP pass, the tigers are always there being supervised by their professionally trained handlers. They know how to care for the cats and they know how to spot the signs of discomfort so they can remove the animals from the situation. All of this "but I heard they were being POKED and STARVED!" is literally nothing but hearsay.

Also keep in mind: if the Kalahari really was abusing the cubs, it would be a PR nightmare and a huge loss of profits. I don't think they want to risk that.

http://www.wtsp.com/news/article/212996/8/10-News-Investigators-raise-questions-about-Big-Cat-Rescue-transparency
http://www.felineconservation.org/fcf/rebuttal_to_carole_baskin_campaign_of_hatred.htm

>>8467063
>>8468061
You act like they're using the cats as volleyballs or something.

The only people who are able to touch the cats are people who paid the 30+ for the photo op, or people who bought the VIP pass, which I can assure is not "screaming weebtards".

Also they don't kill the cats when they're done with them, they give them to zoo's. The purpose of the "cub petting" is to get them acquainted with humans when they're young so they're comfortable in a zoo environment, but BCR seems to conveniently never mention that.

>>8468099
I know two years ago they actually had someone posting on cgl about this. Poke the Rebeccablacktech archives. I think they namefagged as bigcatrescue or some variation of it.

>>8470057
So then why won't the kalahari release any information about their animals' living conditions, what conservation program they're apart of, or plans for the grown cubs? This is really simple information that would shut everyone up immediately, and yet they won't publish anything.

Asking that the organization who runs this thing posts a little bit of information isn't the end of the flipping world, and god knows colossalcon could easily take it upon themselves to ask for that info before continuing the cub sales for next year. I don't see why you guys are so up in arms about this.

>>8470057
What zoos have these adult tigers been transported to? Kalahari seems pretty mum about it.

Also where does the money go to if it's non-profit?

>>8469296
Eh it's more of a "where could you find the meat" cause I'm willing to try most meats as long as the animal isn't endangered and not something that will get me sick. Hell my favorite animal and meat are both rabbit.
>>8469393
I'd try whale. Hell at least Japan kills them quick compared to sea world's forced breeding when they're too young and their early deaths in small tanks.

>>8470494

I've had people flat out tell me "I'd never eat a cat/dog/etc."

Also that stupid petition to get china to stop eating dogs.

>>8470082
>>8470088
Both of these posts make excellent points. Look, if the Kalahari's animal park had anything to do with conservation, had partnerships with other zoos, and was doing something that had a positive effect on animal species as a whole, they'd be shouting it from the fucking rooftops. There isn't even a footnote about the tiger or lion photo ops on their website. They don't even mention it at all, let alone the dubious "money goes to conservation" excuse that literally every single business pulls with exotic creatures.

The only times I've seen Kalahari PR people talk about that sort of thing were a) in a response to a Sandusky newspaper letter to the editor and b) in a response to a bad review from Trip Advisor in June. http://www.tripadvisor.ca/ShowUserReviews-g50940-d566684-r275830814-Kalahari_Resorts_Conventions-Sandusky_Ohio.html# In both of these cases, they claim to be working with the vaguely-named "Safari Management Company," which doesn't exist. The animal park at the Kalahari is run by the owner of Wild Acres Ranch, Bill Coburn.

>>8470059 The purpose of the "cub petting" is to get them acquainted with humans when they're young so they're comfortable in a zoo environment, but BCR seems to conveniently never mention that.

This is absolute bullshit. Big cats do not benefit in any way from being manhandled by untrained idiots and/or children at a young age. No legitimate zoos advocate for this, otherwise what would be the point in outsourcing them to shitty resorts in fucking Sandusky, or roadside zoos, or travelling petting zoos?

Facts:
- Safari Adventures Animal Park is ZAA accredited, not AZA, which is the legit organization and has been around since 1924. ZAA is fairly recent (~10 years old), has a misleading name, and supports private ownership of exotic animals as well as businesses that permit handling of said animals. Any "zoo" that doesn't have AZA accreditation should be regarded with some degree of suspicion.

To be continued.

>>8470654
- They claim to be USDA approved, but USDA approves a lot of things and follows up on few things. They only do investigations perhaps once a year. As far as I could find, Safari Adventures does not have a USDA license. Wild Acres Ranch, however, does. At some point, Wild Acres Ranch's license number changed. The USDA reports from before the name change are now gone. At least one source lists those previous, now disappeared reports as having negative feedback about Wild Acres.
- - Where the animals come from and where they go afterwards is dubious. Bill, the Safari Adventures manager, claims they have private contracts with zoos and foreign places to send animals or receive them, but due to confidentiality, he couldn’t disclose much. He namedropped a few places when I asked.
- - He claims the tiger/lion program generally involves zoos sending new lion and tiger cubs to Safari Adventures to be vaccinated, kept healthy, acclimatized to being handled by people, etc., but could not really explain the benefits of these animals being handled by inexperienced tourists.

If you want to read more about Wild Acres Ranch and its past USDA violations, this post has a tl;dr version of a Humane Society document discussing it: http://hawkfeather.tumblr.com/post/88303531530/as-a-biologist-and-animal-behavior-specialist-an

>"William Coburn, operator of Wild Acres Ranch and Safari Adventures at Kalahari Resorts in Ohio uses tiger, lion, and bear cubs for public handling and has African lions and black bears slaughtered to sell their meat. Coburn has also been cited by the USDA for numerous serious violations of the Animal Welfare Act."
- The Humane Society of the United States’ ZAA Factsheet http://bigcatrescue.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/ZAA-Factsheet.pdf

Of note: lion meat is not prohibited in the US. So if you want to know where the baby lions go when they get too big to take photos with weaboos, "lion burger" is the answer.

>>8470000
All of my vegan friends shop at Wholefoods.

What annoys me about EEEE JAPANESE ARE TERRIBLE PEOPLE KILLING WHALES but military sonar (which I think is American? Not sure) prolong the suffering of whales in the vicinity.

>>8466982

Meh.

A few kids getting to pet a somewhat frustrated but well fed small tiger will probably get a few of them growing up and contributing some money to some good big cat preservation funds in the future. Domesticated housecats are treated the same way, how often do they get to be with their mothers? Not often. We just have to hope their trainers act like family and that they are happy.

This makes me think about the whole Boston museum thing. So many Japanese YouTubers have talked about how fucking stupid those protesters are and that the only thing they are embarrassed about is how they are preventing other American's from learning about their culture and trying on a kimono. Even in Japan they have natives who would die to try on a kimono, even incorrectly. They have whole festivals of it. An interview was even done to a kimono dye artist in Japan who has been dying kimonos for years and he says how it is horrible that these self proclaimed activists want to keep people from trying on something so beautiful.

This is what that reminds me of. I fucking hate people trying to make everything into something. Holy shit. Back the fuck off.

>>8471157
How the fuck are these two situations similar?

>>8471170
Its people stirring up stuff just to be self important.

>>8471177
Yeah social justice warriors thinking Americans touching kimonos is culturalrobberomg!!!!G vs asking a cub-putting business to release information about how their animals are treated are so similar. I mean, they're practically identical here, my god! I can't even remember the difference between them anymore.

Seriously, I'm yet to see any of you people explain why the kalahari publishing info about the supposed sanctuary they're affiliated with is a bad thing. You guys just want to ignore the actual concerns/violations and bitch about vegans.

>>8470082
>So then why won't the kalahari release any information about their animals' living conditions,
I've been going to this convention for 6 years and not once have I seen signs of abuse or heard valid, undeniable evidence about any sort of animal abuse at the Kalahari. The living conditions have been looked into by the con chair himself, and he was satisfied.

>Asking that the organization who runs this thing posts a little bit of information isn't the end of the flipping world, and god knows colossalcon could easily take it upon themselves to ask for that info before continuing the cub sales for next year.
I'm not against asking the Kalahari to provide more detailed information as to where the cubs go after they've completed their stay at the Kalahari, and I agree it would help quell all the bullshit that's going around. I feel like, knowing what I do of the Kalahari I want to give them the benefit of the doubt and believe there is a valid reason behind not having that information public. I think it's a confidentiality thing, but if that's the case, why? Maybe so they don't get harassed by squawking morons like BCR too?

>>8470088
>Also where does the money go to if it's non-profit?
Colossalcon pays the Kalahari for the opportunity to have those sessions. The VIP pass is separate from the Baby Tiger passes. The fee for the session with the cub is tacked onto the VIP badge price, and Colossal is a non-profit organization so the money that isn't paid to the Kalahari goes right back into Colossal and their associated cons.

>>8470654
>Big cats do not benefit in any way from being manhandled by untrained idiots and/or children at a young age.
They're not.

>Of note: lion meat is not prohibited in the US. So if you want to know where the baby lions go when they get too big to take photos with weaboos, "lion burger" is the answer.
Can you reach Mars with that stretch?

>ZAA is fairly recent (~10 years old)
1987 is 10 years?

ZAA is a combination of two other groups: ISZ and UZA, which have been around for way longer than 10 years. The founder of the ISZ was a co-founder of the AZA. Read through the AZA's rules and regulations, and maybe you'll see why there was a need for another organisation.

>The Humane Society of the United States’ ZAA Factsheet
Might want to source your info from someone who isn't a crazy cunt that killed their husband for his money and created a faux cat rescue for more financial gain via tugging at the heartstrings of the fickle public.

You also might want to take a look at what the Humane Society actually is/does before using them as a source, too.

>>8471453
>I think it's a confidentiality thing, but if that's the case, why?
This doesn't make sense to me either - usually being associated with a sanctuary, donating to animal charities, doing the good work, etc, is the very first thing that a place like the kalahari would post all of their website and property. It's great PR, and sanctuaries are very transparent about where their animals come from (I have never heard of anything like a confidentiality clause for any sanctuary or shelter. Cruise onto any sanctuary site and they'll often post about where a certain animal came from). So the lack of information still does not make sense to me - unless their PR department is just lazy, or there's actually no sanctuary affiliation and the animals are sent somewhere they don't want to post about.

>>8471453
Not denying that you personally have seen the cubs happy.... but can you really say that you know what goes on at the end of the day and once they're grown? Again, personally I don't want colossalcon to go in, guns a-blazing and demand a shut down, but any GOOD rescue should be more transparent about where the cubs live/go later. That's all.

>>8471454
>Might want to source your info from someone who isn't a crazy cunt that killed their husband for his money and created a faux cat rescue for more financial gain via tugging at the heartstrings of the fickle public.

Should I even ask you for a source on this?

>>8471469
Her name is Carole Baskin. Her husband mysteriously went missing and was never found, and a few years later was regarded as dead and she inherited his fortune and took full control of their company, "Wildlife on Easy Street" which was initially the same as (if not worse) than the organizations she goes after. There are reports of cats in her care dying due to poor care. WoES bred and sold exotic cats, and even did something similar to cub petting.

This is obviously unconfirmed, but someone from the FCF writes that shortly before her husband went missing, they spoke with her during an event and asked her about her and her husband's property in Costa Rica, and she joked that she wished he'd go there and never come back.

I posted two links further up in the thread, though one is from FCF and contains a lot more opinion than fact. Here's some additional sources.
http://www.sptimes.com/2007/11/11/Hillsborough/The_big_cat_fight.shtml
http://www.bigcatrescuewatch.com/jack-donald-lewis-order-of-protection-against-carole-lewis-baskin.html

She has a LOT of enemies, and most animal welfare organizations completely snub her. She isn't out to help animals, she's in it for her own self-satisfaction. She is a fucking grade A psycho.

>>8471498
"Trouble began to surface once the exotic cats came along. The couple's relationship appeared to suffer, kind of like parents who fight about how to raise their kids.

Baskin wanted to change their mission from breeding and selling exotic cats to rescuing them.

Lewis didn't.

By 1996, Lewis wanted to move the operation to a 200-acre farm he owned in Costa Rica. His wife didn't.

Lewis told Anne McQueen, his assistant of 18 years, that he wanted a divorce. A year later, he walked into the Hillsborough courthouse and asked for a domestic violence injunction against his wife.

"Me and Carole got in a big fuss, she ordered me out of the house or she would kill me," Lewis wrote in court documents. "She has a .45 (caliber) revolver and she took my .357 and hid it."

A judge said there was "no immediate threat of violence" and denied the request.

The last time McQueen saw Lewis, he had argued with his wife and slept in a semitrailer on the property.

"Don did not leave of his own free will," says McQueen, 53, who lives in Tampa. "He loved his money more than anybody, and he would have never left his money."

In August 1997, police found Lewis' van at a Pasco County airport with the keys on the floorboard. He was known to fly out of the country frequently, so police first thought he had just taken a trip. But as the months passed with no sign of Lewis, police flew to Costa Rica, chasing possible sightings. They also searched the wildlife sanctuary in Hillsborough.

Police found no sign of him.

Lewis never touched his $6-million estate again - but his family fought over it. Baskin had documents showing he left her in charge of his estate. Lewis' children were mostly left out of the will except for a previously agreed upon trust.

In 2002, five years after he disappeared, a court declared Lewis dead. Most of his estate went to Baskin."

>>8471498
Here's the problem though. Whether she's batshit crazy or not, right now BCR's docs are the ONLY resources available, period. If they're total bullshit and BCR is making up the USDA violation citings, Wild Acres should put their own out info refuting them with more factual info. When given the choice between information that has a questionable name attached and no information, you're going to go with the one that actually exists. It's on Wild Acre/the Kalahari to provide public info if they want to sway public opinion.

>>8471650
*put their own info out, what is typing.

>>8471498
Can YOU reach Mars with that stretch?

>>8471502
Who even are you?

>>8475029
My guess is someone associated with or close to Colossalcon or the Kalahari. That is way too much shit slinging for a random attendee.

>>8471454
>They're not.
Have you watched any cub petting video? They're babies, they need sleep and comfort/contact with their mother. When they're used like this, they're stressed out, sleep deprived because they keep getting picked up (=more stress). There's studies that show human babies have long-lasting effects from having high cortisol (stress hormone) levels in infancy, there's no reason it wouldn't be the same for them. It can lead to behavioral problems. Not ideal for a future in a zoo (what is).

It might not be the case at that particular place (I don't see why though), but 'petting' set ups usually abuse the cats otherwise, like holding them by the armpits and lifting and lowering them several times to make them drowsy. The animals tend to have diarrhea (from stress) and the workers tend not to clean it, since it is everflowing. Diapers? Great, sitting in runny shit all day.

If they gave any fucks about the kittens, they wouldn't be putting them in this situation in the first place. Proper cat care: https://www.youtube.com/user/BigCatRescue/videos
>minimal contact with the animals to prevent imprinting
>big, free-roaming pens
>no delusions about the kill power of these animals
>respect the animals and their wildness

>>8475500
Wild Acres/Safari Adventures' manager will actually tell you that some of their baby tigers in the public handling events are as young as five weeks. USDA states the only safe time for them to be handled is weeks 8-12, effectively leaving a single month for them to be held by people. If you know what baby tigers look like at different ages, you can definitely tell some of them are in the safe range, but some are way too young to be handled. I don't think any of them -should- be handled by randos who pay a stupid amount of money for it, just saying what the USDA rules are.

Btw, if you link BCR videos, resident Kalahari defender tripfag will just come up with some rebuttal based on all the BCR conspiracy theory bullshit on the internet. They had shitty beginnings and they acknowledge that repeatedly on their website, but their activist campaigns are bad for private exotic animal businesses, so they have a ton of shit flung at them online. To the rest of the thread, don't buy into that.

>>8476500
Does this look like a tiger cub that's in the 8-12 week range? Nope.

>>8476509
This totally looks comfortable.

>>8476516

>>8476520

>>8476522
This one actually bit the Taiga, according to several friends who were there that year. This isn't the only bite that's happened.

>>8476527
2013 videos/photos mostly had a lion cub that looked extremely uncomfortable in every shot. This video showed it at least three times and it was trying to squirm out of each person's arms. This isn't acclimatizing them to being handled for the sake of zoos, this is forcing them to put up with randos grabbing at them and holding them in awkward positions so they can get their novelty photos and Bill Cosburn can make fat weaboo cash.

>>8476509
>>8476516
people pay to look this fucking disgusting? cub aside, these faces....bleughh

>>8467052
Go fuck yourself faggot

>>8469393
Do not trust this poster, they are a whale

4NG and Soni? Haven't seen them around these parts in awhile.

>>8476836

I guess that's what happens when you piss everyone off and get fat

>>8476877
What did they do? I went MIA from these parts for awhile.

Fox Fang is the guy who works with the convention during this just for the tiger photos.

>>8477017
A lot of photographers/videographers do, though. Pretty much the entire group with press passes can have free reign to shoot whomever they want with the tigers/lions.

>>8476921
same as usual. being horrible fucking assholes and people got tired of it.

>>8476516
Wow Chris Gary looks like shit.

>>8477389
wow rude

>>8477401
Honey do you know where you are?

>>8477389
When has Chris Gary not looked like shit?

>>8477144
No we cant, only official staff is allowed.

>>8477389
>>8477615
exactly

>>8477401
no summerfag, it's well deserved

>>8477858
They're the worst. And that's saying something.

>>8477615

Cub petting is wildly irresponsible, even if the cubs involved aren't being mistreated. The cubs in question are sourced from dubious for-profit breeders, often horrifically inbred, and prone to all sorts of health and socialization issues. Not to mention, once they grow past a certain point, they legally can't be used for cub petting, so the facilities usually end up either surrendering them to (already-overcrowded) rescues or just selling them to sketchy roadside zoos or circuses. Any claims that it's "helping with conservation" are bullshit, because no reputable zoo or organization works with these sorts of businesses.

Should Colossalcon be held responsible? Not really, it's the Kalahari that's running the cub petting. But they really shouldn't be promoting it.

>>8479481
>But they really shouldn't be promoting it.
Seriously this, Colossalcon has enough clout that if they really wanted to they could demand more information about the cubs' origins and future homes, and if things go south, publicly condemn it. Continuing to sell passes and blindly trusting that everything is peachy keen means that the con is basically supporting them full out.

>>8476516
>>8477389
>>8477615
>>8477888
>>8479027

Is this assclown monkey still running costume competitions there?

If you really think that letting dozens of strangers play with Cubs is an acceptable "training program" for them you're an idiot. It's incredibly irresponsible and dangerous for both the Cubs and the people. The pictures also send a message that it's ok to interact with endangered animals or even own them

>>8480298
https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1LaBWfQ26VzCeDPabsnPv_DHrN97lFkq7RMMit8BXTWI/viewform?c=0&w=1

>>8479481
>>8479562
The convention's promotion for this grosses me out. Even their program cover had one of their mascots cuddling a baby tiger. Getting a $175 "Baby Tiger Club Pass" is a status symbol for Colossalcon attendees.

>>8481911
It really grates me that the conchair made a FB post about how open staff is to looking into the issues, but at the same time passive aggressively insulted the people who raised questions. It really makes you wonder just what would actually make them look into this. More first person accounts/videos of the cubs? A document of violations written by someone other than the humane society? Seems like they're just waiting for it to blow over.

UPDATE: Looks like Colossalcon pulled their tiger pass sales.

On facebook: /groups/2229173726/permalink/10153088614508727/

>Pulls passes but blames the "haters" who "don't even go here". No mention of even intending on asking the Kalahari about their practices.
>Basically tells everyone passes are still available if they buy directly from the Kalahari
>Pissyphoto.jpg

So much for being "open to learning more" about the cub petting, Donnell. Could you possibly throw a bigger sulk over this?

Everything posted by Colossalcon staff in those facebook threads has been SO unprofessional it hurts.

>>8482309
The bigger part of the annoyance was the emails, and BCR calling up and emailing the kalahari and harassing them, therefore getting in touch with colossal about it and making a huge fuss over the subject. I know people who were on staff and got hundreds upon hundreds of unnecessary emails in the course of a few hours (plus emails for issues that aren't even related because apparently BCR doesn't know how to change emails on a god damn form)

The kalahari still offers photo sessions with the animals. If you went to con ops and asked where it was, they would tell you. Likewise if you asked where to find the outdoor waterpark, they would tell you.

The Kalahari hosts the convention. Whether or not colossal offers the tiger pass or not, it's one of the largest reasons why people attend this con. If they jumped in on the shit smearing campaigns it would ruin the reputation they have with the Kalahari. Then what? Move to the Cleveland convention center? Fuck no.

>>8482675
I think your bigger problem (and I'm going to use "you" here because you're clearly associated with staff) is that you aren't taking your attendees' concerns seriously because some unrelated group is being a bunch of jackholes. There are plenty of congoers who were concerned and voiced those concerns in a polite and reasonable way, asking for Colossalcon to look into things. But instead Donnell decided to slam all of the dissenters en masse and point the finger at how their whining ruined tigers photos for everyone.

I really do love Colossalcon, but this is unprofessional as fuck.

The lion/tiger cub interactions are a draw and big money maker for the resort. Colossalcon can't be seen to accept any evidence that the cub petting may not in fact be good for the cubs, as they want to continue doing business with the Kalahari. Most likely they don't care either way. They only stopped selling the passes to get people off their backs. Makes me wonder why they even bothered to open it for discussion at all though.

>>8481937
>>8482309
>>8482673

What does anyone expect from a bunch of overgrown pisslords?

OH no, all muh power over deez nerds. Respek muh authoritay cuz I can't git any IRL

>>8482675
>Likewise if you asked where to find the outdoor waterpark, they would tell you.

staffers knowing where things are? surely, you jest

>>8482675
There's plenty of other viable waterparks, sandyvag

>>8482780
>sandyvag
>being this offended when someone brings up valid points.

I think Anon was making a point that there is shit for convention space in the northeast ohio area and ohio in general. It's not even just about the water park, but that's what caused the convention to grow drastically from a 3k con to hitting capacity over a few years. The location is convienent, there are tons of hotels in the area, free parking, and other attractions including nearby Cedar Point. People go there as their "Vacation con".

Anywhere else that could accommodate that many people, forgetting any drops in attendance, would mean terrible and expensive parking, expensive hotels, for a convention that is really like most others.

Beyond that, name one water park in Ohio that includes convention space that will hold that many people and allow for future growth.

>>8483041
Sandyvag is as a sandyvag does

A justice bump, hoping for new news in the morning

facebook/groups/2229173726/permalink/10153092868768727/

Well, if anyone had any doubts as to whether colossalcon staff lurks cgl

>>8486865

So he starts a new thread to whine about it and get asspats? good for him, good job he deleted that first thread on the tiger cub passes where he literally broke every single discussion rule that he set forth in his OP

wtf is this girl even trying to say? why are these people all so stupid

>>8487132
>why are these people all so stupid

Ohio.

>>8486865
Still deleted threads??

ah the fine staff at colossalcon with only the best education. these guys are so easy to bait holy moly

As someone who worked at a Zoo, I was hopeful that this was being blown out of proportion, but looking at the pics, I don't think it is.

A cub-petting event CAN be good, granted the cub is under constant surveillance by the handler, the focus is on learning about the animal, and the guest isn't HOLDING THE ANIMAL.
Shit, I worked with small farm animals around kids, the purpose was to teach them cool things about the animals and they were NOT ALLOWED to hold them. I'm talking like chickens and rabbits--no one other than Zoo staff was allowed to hold them, and these are just normal non-endangered animals that people have as pets.

It's sad because the resort could have it as a sort of "here come see this rare endangered animal, pet it, and learn about the things you can do to keep its species safe from extinction!" but no it's just rich people taking pictures with an exotic baby animal. I doubt they bother with enrichment for the animals or even education about conservation with their guests.

>>8487892
it's really deplorable and the entitled little a-holes who defend it keep crying, "where's the abuse? there's no proof!" because they don't understand that they are participating in it when they use the baby tiger as a prop for their shitty toradora cosplay or whatever

>>8466982
Is it bad that I'm so used to weird shit on 4chan that when I read "cub meet and greet session where animals are being abused" and just immediately assumed it was some fury/otherkin thing.

Also people need to shut the fuck up. I want to see photos of where these cubs are extremely terribly taken care of.

>>8488036
No

>>8468187
troll or not I agree with you

outta sight outta mind

>>8469875
people on foodstamps that spend money on cosplay and anime shit should kill themselves

>>8468050
I see you watched blackfish.

This is just stupid. They're tigers. We're not traumatizing them. This is a million times less stressful than nature.

>>8487132
She's pointing out that the "outrage" is the bandwagonists, not actual animal rights advocates

>>8469060
Except the thing is a lot of people don't necessarily think what the Kalahari is doing is considered "abuse." Living a cushy life at the Kalahari or in the Zoo seems much more nice than trying to live in the wild (which is a whole host of other problems).

>>8469633
>>8469885
It's fucking weird, I don't understand the stigma. It's not like someone's going to walk over to your house, pick up your fucking chihuahua and cook it in a pot. There are dogs that are actually bred to be eaten…

It's also kinda dumb how people care about LE ANIMAL RIGHTS only when the fucking animals look exotic/cute. Jfc.

>>8469935
>implying zoos are much better

How about we just not handle the tigers altogether? Let's just let them go extinct :^)

>>8491218
>this is a million times less stressful than nature
lol can you read tiger minds now? how the fuck do you have the authority to tell us what animals are thinking?

>>8491236
and those that think what the Kalahari is doing isn't abuse are retarded. The photos aren't just done for Colossalcon, but other times of the season as well.

At least at a zoo, animals are pretty much left alone, except when the pens are cleaned, it's feeding time, or for medical check-ups/vaccinations.

Photo ops means the animal is being kept awake for each photo op, which can be anywhere from 20 to 50 a day, if not more. Infants need rest, and just because one photo op is a relatively pleasant experience, doesn't mean each and every single one will be the same for the animal (forget the people's experience, as this isn't about them).

Shit, I'd be all for it, so long as the animal's are treated well, which a simple opening of birthing and medical inspection schedules can ease the fears of the advocates, not to mention limiting only a set number of sessions per day and season, which the Kalahari have been close-mouthed about. I don't blame Colossalcon with dropping the packages, this shit has nothing to do with them. They're just some vendor coming into the park and being offered an amenity they could feature as an option for their convention, even if many don't decide to pay extra for it.

>>8491353
So where is the proof that the cubs are being abused again? :^)

>>8491279
Stress is a biological response. It's measurable.

>>8491373
Read.

>>8491468
Speculation and random shitposts on 4chan aren't really proof though. Also, people's opinions of what count as "abuse" are different.

I'd say that the ABUSEEE they get in these sessions and the STRESS they feel is negligible. You don't think animals undergo stress in nature? Wow holy shit, these animals are SOOO oppressed for being fed, taken care of, and god forbid PET.

>petting an animal is abuse
But slaughter houses are fine right?
Lmao cognitive bias

>>8491515
Like the other anon said, read before you start spewing shit. The main issue is where the tigers go after their couple weeks of baby petting is over (who are they sold to? do they go to a sanctuary? somewhere oversees? another zoo?), and how the kalahari gets a constant rotating supply of babies in the first place (ie are they partnered with many sanctuaries, or, more likely, are they funding a breeding program who's just concerned with popping out new tigers as opposed to responsibly breeding them). The idea that you aren't allowed to question someone's business practices because "there's worse places out there" is ridiculous and doesn't negate the fact that it's irresponsible for Colossalcon to promote something that they admit to knowing very little about.

>>8476798
I think the one on the left might be a dude

>>8491652
kek, but once you find out, what then my little animal rights activist? Are you going to do anything to take down these ~evil corporations~? Colossal already stopped selling the baby tiger passes officially. What more do you want?

Give me a break. You aren't going to do shit, and neither is anyone else. You all are bitching for the sake of bitching, and nothing else.

Man, internet activists are somethin' else.

>>8480331
Fap Weekend

Top kek

>>8486865
LOL bawleeted

>>8470662
>>8470654
spot the vegan

>>8469633

It's kinda difficult to eat cat. Not a whole lot of meat on them.

>>8491373
Probably in the kalahari schedule book right there, which they've not revealed.

The schedule book or sales receipts of the sessions alone can reveal how many photo ops are done in a day, week, and month.

Medical records can show when the animals received vaccinations, how old they are, and other shit people are complaining about.

Like I said before, I'm cool with them allowing the petting sessions if they are doing it humanely, responsibly, and legally.

>>8492013
Same with rabbits, guinea pigs, and frogs, but people still eat them

>>8491218

Let us know when you release your Baby Cub Whisperer books

>>8491749

You must either be new or really slow

>>8491750
Better con runners that are more responsible, really. Oh and dump 4ng3l, holy shit. It doesn't take a scientist to see his douchebaggery is 24/7.

Lol what the fuck is this shit? I didn't know there were any wild animals at that convention.

>>8491515
>>8491595
Christ on a bike, you people are dumb. First off, the presence of a worse alternative doesn't automatically make something good. If someone punches you, you're not going to think, "at least they didn't electrocute me." Same deal here - the constant handling in the petting sessions may not be anywhere near the magnitude of struggling for survival or being slaughtered, but that doesn't make it pleasant.

Second, the petting itself isn't even the main issue here. Even if it's a bit stressful for the cubs, I'd never call it outright abusive. The issue is more where the cubs come from, and where the cubs go after they get too big for petting (which is like a 4-week window). No, they aren't "being socialized for zoos" or whatever - NO REPUTABLE ZOO WORKS WITH ANYONE THAT LETS MEMBERS OF THE PUBLIC HANDLE THE ANIMALS. Once the cubs hit the 12-week mark and can't legally be used for petting businesses, they end up in one of the following:
>sold to a skeevy breeding facility for the purpose of making more cubs for petting facilities/novelty pets/etc.; usually horrifically inbred
>sold to some unaccredited roadside zoo that doesn't have adequate knowhow or resources to keep these animals
>sold to a dubious circus that again, seldom has the right knowledge/resources to keep a tiger
>surrendered to one of the few big-cat rescue operations in the country, all of which are horrendously overcrowded as-is and some of which have a questionable history with regards to the care of their animals
>sold to some jackass as a pet, where the animal will live an unfulfilled life at best and pose a danger to other people at worst
The cubs can only legally be used for petting for about a month. To keep having pet-able cubs on hand, these businesses have to keep buying new cubs, which are shat out by sketchy for-profit businesses that don't give a fuck about what happens to the animals they sell.

>>8493503
TL;DR

They use magic and cloning to keep having baby cubs! These are a rare breed not found in the wild!

>>8493683
Actually yeah. Kind of. The majority of tigers in private ownership in the US are hybridized/inbred and without a traceable lineage to the subspecies in the wild and as a result they're actually useless as breeding stock for conservation purposes. They're legally referred to as 'generic' tigers.

How has no one been scratched or bitten yet? Or has and kalahari covered it up? Even cubs have sharp claws and teeth.

>>8493857
They're too young to do any serious damage, unless you have really delicate skin. You'll be about as badly scratched as your average house cat.

>>8494443
>>8493857
Having played with tiger cubs and owner of many house cats, tiger cubs are actually less likely to damage you than a cat. Cat claws are sharper and is more likely to pierce skin. A tiger cub was a larger mouth and stronger bite but you have to really let them go at it to get a little sore. Also they don't have the grab-with-claws-and-kick reflex that cats do, because of the different size of prey.

I smell a liberal nutcase by the name of Jessie and her ally fedora army in here.

>>8494500
Go back to /pol/ because that's not what this thread is about.
Bye, Felicia

>>8494636
Sup, Pridemoore. Still squawking about the evils of men even though you married one to get a green card?

Yeah we know this was you that started this bullshit. Drop your vendetta with chris, no one gives a fuck about you and whining about "women" oppression except the spineless faggots that worship your ass.

>>8494684

Sup /pol/

>>8494684
Should be the evils of your fedora

>>8494684
>green card

When you say that about an actual born American, does that make it racist?

>>8494684
So I'm going by your logic and say you're Chris or Sonnya without your trips to make it look like there are people who actually like them?

People like them, what a hearty laugh!

>>8494824
If you only do it towards Mexicans, yeah

>>8494875
Who's the mexican? Chris?
People born in other countries can get green cards too, I'm not understanding your misguided thought process.

what happened?

Can you take a wee on the cubs?

>>8495810
sure thing

>>8493503
Wow. This is a lot of talk for someone who wants to appear like they care, but aren't going to actually do anything. :^)

This is why internet activists are SHIT

>>8496520
They must learn it from you

>>8496526
You seem mad.

Either way, there's no reason to argue this topic anymore. Colossal stopped their sales of the cub petting passes. This board is about cosplay and EGL fashion. How is cub petting even relevant? It's not.

I just find that all this animal rights/social justice talk is really cheap. It's fucking retarded to whip up a 300+ word argument about why X is evil and why YOU are evil if you don't work to stop X, yet the person writing the argument has never done (and will never do) anything to stop the evil in the first place.

Saged because this thread is now irrelevant to the board. Hurry the fuck up, janitors.

>>8496562
I have nothing to do with this but uh you also seem pretty mad. How do you even know what people have or haven't done? I mean from the sound of it they did accomplish something if they got the con to stop selling the passes. And you're just whining about it without even having a particular purpose? so like... good for you up on your high horse there?

>>8496562
sur

>>8496597
Not mad, more like annoyed. And I think you kinda missed the point of the long anon rant (how about reading it again?).

It's not about whether or not Colossal stopped selling the cub passes. The post talked about whether the Kalahari should handle the animals, the ethics regarding breeding facilities, selling the tigers to circuses, among some other things that are completely irrelevant to this board (cosplay and EGL).

It's not like those big problems have been solved. Honestly, do you really think anyone's going to do shit about those? It was easy to get Colossal to stop selling the passes by just bitching and their willingness to be PC, but do you think bitching is going to stop breeding facilities from continuing to sell these baby tigers off somewhere?

The answer is no, no it's not. And if you really want to stop that shit, you'd be looking into factual sources and citing them and researching other means to stop them, not shitposting on fucking 4chan. Citing some random 4chan idiot about the POSSIBILITY of Kalahari working with one of these supposedly evil breeding facilities is not research and is fucking useless and insulting to people who genuinely care about this issue.

saged because this thread really is irrelevant to cgl lol

>>8491236
Like getting shot in the face by poachers.

My aunt actually works at one of these places that lets people pet cubs. I guess it doesn't speak for all animals, but most of their cubs are abandonment cases and cannot be returned to the wild, but are turned over to a sanctuary later.

They also have restrictions on age so kids don't pull at them and supervise playtime. If anyone handles the animals incorrectly they're immediately asked to leave.

They also love those animals and take very good care of them. Sooo.

I get that exotic wild life should be looked after properly and it sucks when they're in cages but like they are all actually trained to handle those animals and awareness about the animals does help their causes. I'd not think it was cool if they were doing this with adult animals but it keeps the cubs active and as said they are turned over to a wildlife center or zoo usually, if they aren't just on loan.

(And no, fuck you Sea World. It's not the same thing. The cubs aren't all dying at 2 years old and going crazy and eating people.)

>>8491442
Please link to the experiment where they've measured the stress of tiger cubs while being pet.

>>8494716
Lol, you wish this was /pol/ and a fedora. But that would be one of Jesse's beta army

>>8494861
The word "Irony" in one of its forms was not used in either post. Can't be Chris or Sonnya

>>8494824
Pridemoore is canadian.

>>8497201

Beached whale jealous of pridemore

>>8497205
It also does not claim someone's opposing logic is "crumbling away" with just one cited example. For two people who find their validation through arguing with people (since he's a spoiled manchild and she's a doormat with a transparent 'tough girl' facade), one would think they'd be a little better at it.

>>8497209
New Orleans is pretty far from Canada, was it annexed?

>>8498827
Can't be too much of a doormat since she divorced his ass

>>8502787
Wut?

>>8503400
Lol go check her name on Facebook bruh

>>8476527
>a baby animal bit someone
>oh noooo

While I don't agree with letting randos handle the baby tigers, it's a baby. Biting and chewing is part of development and I'm sure that most if not all the bites are playful. Sure, it might hurt, but the tiger likely didn't bite to harm, it was probably playing. Especially since that one actually looks like it's near old enough to be handled, at 8-12 weeks that cat has a lot of energy. Kittens often go through chewing phases just like puppies, and they'll chew on almost anything, including people. Tigers just happen to have bigger/stronger jaws and teeth.

>>8496858
>most of their cubs are abandonment cases and cannot be returned to the wild
>implying they came from the wild in the first place

They were bred in captivity for profit.

>as said they are turned over to a wildlife center or zoo usually, if they aren't just on loan

That's what all pay-to-play places say. They don't typically go to any legitimate wildlife centre/zoo/sanctuary, just the shitty unaccredited ones, or idiotic private owners.

>>8504622
or dissected and sold for meat, virility supplements, and the fur trade

I have a pet tiger, she has a giant litter tray but last week she took a massive dumb on my parent's bed

>>8506067
That would be 'a massive DUMP' you illiterate abusive twat

>>8476500
>USDA states
the USDA seriously is in charge of tigers?
I'm not sure I'd trust them....

What the fuck do tiger cubs have to do with anime anyway
Oh wait none of the American cons are ANIME conventions anyway