/cgl/ - Cosplay & EGL

>>10625335
How are the dresses on picrel NOT lolita?
They do look a bit costumey but almost all ott looks like that.

>>10625335
All the dresses in OP are lolita.
Personally i think its boring how some people think hime lolita or OTT classic lolita arent really lolita when lolita is supposed to be based from rococo fashion

God i want this dress so badly

These all look like the toilet paper dolls your grandma has at her house

If only the feet shows under the skirt I don't count it as lolita. Rococo inspired dresses can be beautiful, but if it goes under calf lenght it's a no from me

>>10625343
Yess exactly! I love some good rococo and baroque inspired lolita coords.

>>10625353
?

>>10625360
I'm not obligating you to agree with me lulz
still no

>>10625347
This is gorgeous anon.

>>10625348
Had to look these up to see what they were and now I can't unsee it. Damnit.

>>10625360
well, that's arguably ega not egl. but i don't agree with length-gatekeeper-anon.

>>10625379
grandma knows what's up

Congratulations to devilinspired for selling sissy wear i guess

>creamy cutie pie
>icravedeath.jpg

This. It goes beyond lolita and more into historical clothing. Don't get me wrong, it's super pretty...just not lolita.

>>10625596

>>10625598

>>10625583
The majority of the skirts for lolita with "Chinese lolita" is getting shorter and shorter as well.

That's exactly why we can't have "Idol Lolita" because it's going to look exactly like sissy wear. Those skirts are too short.

>>10625343
You really don't know what Hime lolita typically looks like.

OTT classic wasn't really common until all this China wear.

>>10625605
Also the roleplayers for historical clothing was normally looked down upon. It's pretty apparent when it's supposed to be more historical clothing versus lolita. I think that's where all this crap is getting mixed up for everyone now, though.

>>10625601

>>10625596
You know, I look at the pictures you're posting and I agree. It's definitely more into historical clothing than lolita. Yet, when I look back at fairly similar dresses that I would still consider lolita (such as many by Henrietta), it's hard to define why since there are quite a few similarities between the two.

>>10625620
I wouldn't call this lolita, but this is so gorgeous.

>>10625623
I was the lenght gatekeeper anon and when I look at this it strikes me as lolita (and beautiful lolita desu)
So idk, lolita is a state of mind kek

>>10625622, I mean

I feel like once you get into the territory of needing proper stays/corsets to get the proper look for a dress, you've veered out of lolita and into historybounding. A lot of these dresses would have the same look as wearing lolita without a bra if you didn't have period-accurate undergarments, but if you wear classic lolita with 21st century underwear it looks fine because while it's inspired by historical garments, the dresses are cut to have a silhouette that works with the natural body.

>>10625625
Get out of here with this Lor shit

>>10625633
woosh

>>10625632
I don't believe I can agree entirely. Some of Atelier Pierrot uses corsets on their dresses. It's more about how historical it looks..

Classical + Corsets borders the historical realm way more than anything else.

>>10625605
Juliette et Justine has left the chat

>>10625643
This.
Is not the same as this: >>10625347 >>10625335

Believe it or not Chinese lolita has had intense influence and really blurs a lot of you new lolita's lines and boundaries on things.

Just because it was made or made often by China, doesn't mean it's good or even viable for lolita.

>>10625648
Dropped my photo.

I think the confusion lies in a lot of design elements that lolita brands borrow from historical clothing. For me, it's ultimately the length, the shape of the skirt, and down to the styling that makes it lolita or not.

>>10625664
Another one for design comparison.

>>10625637
Do they use actual steel boning in their corsets or are they more fashion corsets with plastic boning? If they're real steel boned I have to get my hands on one

>>10625674
It's plastic. The bodice fabric they use is way too delicate for any actual reduction.

>>10625679
Then it's still not quite what I'm talking about. It's not the look of the corset, it's the body shaping aspect. If you don't wear stays with a georgian era dress, your body will pull the dress oddly, because the dress is literally made for an altered human shape. If the corset doesn't have metal boning, it isn't meant to make the body a different shape, it's just to give the bodice some structure to sit properly on top of a natural human shape. That's where I think the line is; modern clothing, including lolita, is meant to sit on a natural form with a bra on, most historical garments that lolita takes inspiration from are meant to be worn with body altering underwear.

>>10625622
for me, it's the shape of the poof that separates them

>>10625583
I hate that I actually think this is cute. If only the pink ribbon border wasn't shiny.

I can hear Lor coming for this dress in my nightmares.

>>10625873
it would be cute if it were a nice chiffon and like, an apron, kind of reminds me of an extremely shitty AP's soap bubbles

>>10625343
Umm?? I thought it was based on Victorian not Rococo.
Surely you mean nulolita is based on Rococo.

>>10625774
Finally a cross OP with the crosses pointing the right damn way

>>10625896
Lolita has taken influences from Rococo and Victorian* but also 20s style, 50s and 60s style, even 80s fashion.

*this is a useless term because the victorian era spanned several decades and contained various trends that don't look similar at all

anyway to contribute, Milkshake is really cute but half the time it's coordinated more vintage than lolita. Neon star diner is a better mesh of 50s and lolita

>>10625720
>lolita, is meant to sit on a natural form with a bra on

On the contrary, the majority of Japanese lolitas are flat and normally the bodice is relatively fit. I mean, sure it's maybe not meant to be that but normally looks the same as being as flat as a washboard with a corset on.

>>10625749
Why do you think this isn't lolita, anon? Looks like it follows the sweet country theme pretty closely.

>>10625769
>>10625898
>>10625763
Personally, these gets to be too costumey for me.

>>10625973
No no I do, I just wondered if it really was or too cosplay-ish to be? I couldn't tell so I dropped it here for a 2nd opinion.

>>10625756
>tfw people don't recognise natural kei anymore

>>10625980
Dang anon, my OTT taobao hime lolita dreams are squished.

These are apparently BTSSB dresses? But they seem very much like some dresses you see on Devil Inspired..

>>10625992
spot the newfag

>>10625989
To be fair it was always not so much about the label natural kei and more about encompassing the styles released by Pink House

>>10625583
this feels like a sex outfit, like the kinda thing you'd wear for your boyfriend if he asked you to let him do you in lolita because it feels taboo

>>10625990
It's a bit much for ME but if you love it, go for it boo.

>>10625637
Those aren very much fashion corsets

>>10625990
The majority of TaoBao Lolita is very costumey, over Lolita...

>>10625720
>If the corset doesn't have metal boning, it isn't meant to make the body a different shape

>most historical garments that lolita takes inspiration from are meant to be worn with body altering underwear.

This is incorrect. Afaik, most corsets from that era were made of whale baleen and most likely padded to a certain extent. Abilletage definitely makes lolita coordinates with the steel boned corsets they make, and not all historical corsets are meant to make the body an entirely different shape, some are essentially like wearing bras.

>>10626163
Dropped pic sorry

For me, I think it depends how many "historical" elements there are vs. "lolita" elements. Usually history based stuff goes for realism of the period and historical accuracy, but lolita veers into fantasy and what looks nice more often. Corsets would normally never be worn overtop of garments historically, skirt lengths would be much longer, sewing methods and fabrics are very specific, and usually they all come from the same period.

As long as there are enough lolita elements mixed in, it counts as lolita to me. Styling counts as well. I think if >>10625612
went for a more modern looking hairstyle and different accessories it would be a more agreeable coordinate for many.

>>10625989
>2021
>still using that outdated term from proven fucked up google translate
it's just otome

For me a lot of the dresses posted itt aren't lolita at all. I also wouldn't consider them historical clothing or anything like that. I'd just say they're pretty costumes. (Or in the case of a couple posts, EGA, maid costume, otome, etc.) I think there's a combination of factors that make something lolita.

>length
long skirts have to at least show the ankle and lower shin, short skirts have to at least cover your ass

>shape
requires a petti and/or have a lot more volume than most modern skirts (like AP's sallos or Meta's mini skirts, which still have a distinctive poofy skirt)

>modesty
no cleavage, even blouse-less coords are kept tasteful, preference for stockings vs pantyhose or other sexier types of socks

>theme, style, details, etc.
rockabilly clothes, a historical '50s dress, or some other pre-existing fashion item might be styled into a lolita coord, but I wouldn't call that article of clothing lolita. A lot of western brands also teeter on the edge, because they lack the quality and details like lace that help define the fashion

>is it clothes?
costumes aren't lolita. clown shoes aren't lolita. sceptres aren't lolita. crowns and halos aren't lolita. this is a fashion that is meant to be worn as regular clothes, not a costume, so something like this >>10625766 isn't it.

>brand
in some ways the most important. If Baby releases a floor-length gown and says "this is lolita", then it is bc they are the brands that define the fashion. If Lady Sloth or Diamond Honey release a floor length gown, it's not lolita bc they're just some random assholes. AP's animal ears are lolita, but random bunny ears from Etsy aren't. >>10625947 is lolita but hellbunny dresses aren't.

>>10626498
In which way stockings are more modest than pantyhose? For normies its 100% the other way round, and even in lolita, bare skin gap between the stocking and the skirt may look questionable compared to tights, even sheer ones

>>10626544
not that anon, but I think maybe they meant socks vs pantyhose. not sure though

>>10626498
>>brand
>in some ways the most important. If Baby releases a floor-length gown and says "this is lolita", then it is bc they are the brands that define the fashion. If Lady Sloth or Diamond Honey release a floor length gown, it's not lolita bc they're just some random assholes. AP's animal ears are lolita, but random bunny ears from Etsy aren't.

That's very biased of you Anon. If it's not brand, it's not Lolita. Brand whore detected.

>>10625335
only the burgundy one

>>10625360
EGA more than EGL but yes

>>10625749
>>10626166
that's a definite yes

everything else is a no. it's either hardcore princess LARPing bullshit, history bounding, or cheap "idol" wear that looks like a straight up cosplay

>>10626873
No, it's not that only brand is lolita. Anyone can make lolita and I own plenty of off-brand stuff. But random people can't make any random shit and then claim it's lolita. Just because Dollskill or Killstar slap the lolita label on a dress, that doesn't make it so.

Mana, Maki, Asuka, Kuniko Kato, Fumiyo, Novala, etc. DO define the fashion. They are literally the people who created the fashion movement and continue to decide what lolita looks like. Stuff like long skirts and sack dresses is only accepted in the fashion now because brands started releasing them, redefining what is an acceptable silhouette.

>>10626873
/cgl/ is where brandwhores get exiled to, didn't you know?

>>10626498
>this is a fashion that is meant to be worn as regular clothes, not a costume, so something like this >>10625766 # isn't it


But you can wear regular clothes as a costume sometimes for a fancy event. A black dress isn’t a costume, but if you wear a black dress with cat ears and whiskers it could be a cat costume. Of course a scepter isn’t lolita by itself, but it can perfectly fine for special dressed up coordinates worn for special events.

>>10625421
>i don't agree with length-gatekeeper-anon.
EGA vs EGL is basically only length and silhouette. the big gowns aren't lolita, they are basically just vaguely historical ballgowns.

>>10626498
You do realize crowns and scepters are common with hime lolita? And btssb makes them too.

>>10626982
hime lolita is clearly supposed to be worn as a costume though. same with things like ero and guro, they're not meant to be every day outfits but instead, lolita incorporated into a costume.

In the same way, random wedding ballgowns aren't lolita, these princess dresses are not lolita. Being vaguely Victorian or Rococo inspired doesn't make something lolita. I've even seen Regency inpsired dresses tagged as lolita. It's disingenuous to all all of those things lolita just because they look similar.

>>10626985
hime lolita isnt a costume. thats like saying OTT classic is a costume. its still lolita and can be worn daily. its just a preference
hime lolita isnt the same as ero and guro at all.
ero lolita is barely a thing and ero isnt taken seriously and is seen as halloween wear.

>>10626995
i meant to say guro isnt taken seriously.

>>10626995
yes it is. and no it's not the same as OTT classic because OTT classic isn't a theme. hime is a theme, not a substyle, like a pirate coord isn't a substyle, it's a theme. you can have sweet, classic or gothic hime, just like you can have sweet, classic or gothic pirate lolita. it's not a substyle at all. ouji is a substyle because it's name comes from the fact that it's emulating young men's clothes, not that it's princes specifically,

>>10626985
Also i want to add that most chinese dresses that claim to be hime lolita arent, they are costumes.
Btssb and ap have made plenty of hime lolita dresses and they werent costumes.
I think its important to note that japanese hime lolita was never seen as costume wear.

Is this too short?

>>10627003
Hime lolita isnt costume wear. Id wear this shit daily and i would still be a lolita.
Hime lolita is literally a substyle. I thought that was common knowledge?

>>10625750
Hime Lolita?

>>10627005
Thats definitely intended for sex

This looks sorta old school

The model in this pic looks like she's seen some shit

>>10625664from historical fashion
>>10625666
This exactly. Styles like regular gothic fashions and hime-kei often take similar elements from historical fashion as lolita, mainly bodice and sleeve design, but there's a distinct seperation that has to do with like you said, shape, lolita has a specific skirt and bodice shape that tie the styles together, length isn't really relevant, the bodice and skirt shape have more to do with it. >>10625720 Is almost correct, but is too focused on body altering garments, which lolita definitely includes. Lolita isn't meant for people with larger breasts, long torsos or taller people in general and the basic skirt uses a petticoat, which is a body altering undergarment. Lolita's shape is basically a bodice or blouse structured to fit a petite natural torso with a skirt that uses a petti to give it a basic shape. If you look at the blurred lines between EGA and EGL, you will see what I mean. Most of the more historical inspired dresses ITT are similar to EGA vs EGL. Like EGA, many of these dresses don't rely on the lolita silhouette or the bodice shape, but instead lean on historical elements with a ballgown skirt that makes it similar to a bell shape. With that in mind, most things ITT are just not lolita.

>>10627006
i disagree, it's like sailor lolita, a theme.

?

>>10627020
definitely it just has more of a punky gothic vibe. this is like h.frill, which can lean into japanese goth fashion but is also lolita.

>>10627013
The rest of her face, probably

to me, lolita like this is more how it's worn, the styling. i always remember pic related, a hime gyaru wearing whip magic. looking at the JSK and even the crown are lolita, but it just isn't lolita. it has a lot of things that would work in a lolita coord, but it's not lolita. many dresses posted here are the same way, you can wear many of them like lolita. things like >>10625347 and >>10625596 are just costumes because they're being worn like costumes. they look like historical larp. but that doesn't mean you can't style them as lolita (hell you can even style them as hime gyaru if you try hard enough) but i think that's what makes it harder.

>>10627025
>>10627003
Oh i see. I understand now, anons. I agree.
Sorry if my posts were autistic. Im a hime lolita because growing up i loved seeing himegyaru. I mainly focus on OPs with princess sleeves with royal prints and i have big curly hair and sometimes i wear a tiara with a scepter or a big frilly parasol.

>>10626554
maybe they mean traditional stockings which are similar to otks. Pantyhose are typically sheer and very revealing while traditional stockings are often opaque or made of opaque materials. Not to mention the difference in undergarment requirements.

>>10627025
depending on the shoes shes wearing, this could still be a lolita coordinate, just with gyaru makeup. gyaru would wear lolita occasionally back in the day. g

>>10627030
it's clearly not styled as a lolita coord like the ones you posted. she's wearing it in a more sexy way with very gyaru hair and no blouse, where as those gyaru are styling it in a more modest way with blouses and socks and are styling their hair in a way that suits lolita better. even this picture shows that lolita looks like lolita no matter who is wearing it as long as it's styled properly.

>>10627034
what do you think isn't lolita about this?

>>10627039
Just a little costumey?

>>10627041
it may be a bit too busy, but it's not costumey to me. just heavy on the alice in wonderland inspiration.

>>10627034
Idk why but this reminds me of old school lolita. Is it because of the collar?

>>10627032
you dont know if shes wearing socks or not. i think blouseless coords can work fine, it leans more gyaru than lolita but i think big gyaru hair works fine in lolita.

>>10627052
Blouseless lolita was definitely an old school thing

>>10627054
it's not just an old school thing, it pops up now and then in more modern series

>>10627012
Damn, this looks great except transparent OTKs, they ruin it all.

>>10627095
i dont even know what this is supposed to be

>>10627012
This is really bad quality. The transparent OTKs are just as bad as the entire dress.
>cheap lace
>wonky ribbons
>wonky scallops
>poorly gathered ruffles
The fabric also looks really odd

>>10627052
NTA but you need to be an idiot to not see the clear difference between what they posted and what you're posting.

>>10627047
Doesnt remind me of old school. maybe it is the alice inspiration, but otherwise it isnt old school at all

To the anon that liked this dress someone on CoF is wearing it and it's fabulous

>>10628972
God I love this dress so much and want it so bad but I would probably have to buy a whole new set of accessories to fit the colour and theme and I just can't take the headache rn.
And then I'd have nowhere to wear it.
I'll just admire from afar. It looks so beautiful tho.

>>10625608
I'm not sure which side you are anon but as someone who lurks in historical clothing community they see lolita as cheap.

>>10629967
Nayrt but you got me curious, what is the opinion of that community over lolita?

>>10629967
As someone who went from lolita mainly to historical clothing, lolita is pretty cheap.

I spend a lot on proper fabrics with historical weaves, proper natural linens and threads and wool, a lot of time researching and creating based on stitches used at the time, etc. A lot of lolita (especially modern poly shit) is more akin to fast fashion

>>10625720
the stays you are talking about were not ment to shape your body but hold the massive amout of fabric in it's place. It's the same as wearing a bra but the weight of your chest is not uphold by tiny straps but your whole torso.

>>10627187
a fashionable gothic tent

>>10629977
that anon isn't well researched, no use arguing with them.

>>10629969
I got into lolita from the historical mixed to be more cute and wearable as a "everyday" clothing. I see alot even brand stuff in cheap light cus I'm a professional tailor and know what goes into making clothes. Not all though. It depends on the garment and not on the brand.
It comes to the desighn how it is executed and materials used.
>>10629974
I can agree with you there anon. For me poly clothing isn't nesesseraly bad, just it's really easy to get wrong. And most of the time they do.

>>10629974
lolita is basically fast fashion. it's just niche. people always treat lolita as a designer brand, when it's not. it's still all made in china.

>>10627194
I want you to know that I cancelled my taobao order for the dress because of your comment. I couldn't unsee the poor quality.

What I find weird is the silhouette of this dress in one of the ad's for it looks hime Lolita- but then on the mannequin it's nowhere near as cup cake shaped.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jz4pIW4uu1s

>>10629996
Do you even know what fast fashion means? Do you consider LV fast fashion because it’s also made in China?

>>10630563
i said basically, it uses cheap printing methods and is factory made not handmade. it's not designer or even close.

I think the majority of the dresses ITT are lolita if styled in a lolita way.
The problem with a lot of the OTT Chinese releases is that newbs buy them and don’t know how to coord them so they just put the dress on ans call it a day.
It takes more than a dress to make a coord. You could be wearing an AP jsk but If the coord in its summation is not styled lolita, it’s not lolita.

>>10630564
>not handmade so not quality
are you retarded?
Do you deadass think the industrial revolution's fruits should be ignored/denied or something?
Technology being used to have better precision in garment making is a good thing.

>>10630458
diffirent undergarments. most likely a hoop skirt in the video and either a diffirent kind of hoopskirt or more likely a normal petty on the mannequin.

>>10630564
are you confusing haute couture (which is actually handmade) with designer? Designer brands sell even tshirts, are you telling me they're handmade in an atelier and not produced in a factory? lol.

>>10630564
the fast fashion label is based on production speed and cycle, not how the clothes are made