/cgl/ - Cosplay & EGL

This thread is probably going to turn to shit soon, but I'll contribute. To an extent, I feel like my radfem beliefs often contradict lolita. Radfem ideals suggest that femininity was/is, in part at least, manufacture to oppress women

>>10569195
lolitas get shat on for not wearing makeup. it’s at least partially viewed through the male gaze

When I go out in lolita, I become invisible to males who are not my friends/family. So yeah

>>10569198
If you are radfem and want to try and alleviate some guilt of this, I'd suggest trying your best to only support women owned brands. At least your money will be going into the pockets of other women instead of some rich male CEO making millions off the beauty industry.

I never rly think about how others view me when I'm in lolita or vintage stuff (they're the only styles I ever wear). I guess I'm losing weight but that's more wanting to be healthy. I guess I want to look pretty too... but again, I never rly thought of it as looking at myself through a male gaze? I have a strong preference for women anyway so idk if that plays any role

inb4 thread gets derailed

a lot of lolitas are incredibly gung-ho about keeping lolita as anti-male gaze as as possible, but I don't know how realistic it is- especially when there's such a push to wear makeup, heavily style hair, be skinny, etc. you could make the argument that its done to impress other women, like how makeup is still a commodity in womens prisons despite the overall lack of men to show off to. but ultimately i think that no matter how much people argue that they're doing it completely for themselves, there's still the underlying motive of impressing and showing off to others, and that often does include men. for an alternative fashion, there sure is a lot of focus on trying to ensure that others think you look good.

my boyfriend thinks i like pretty and alluring in lolita (i mainly do classic). I like that actually, i'm glad he enjoys it. another dude who was obviously hitting on me told me how "appealing" he thought lolita was. that was uncomfortable and i didn't like it.

it's complicated.

OP do you think that the Disney store sells princess costumes because of the male gaze, or just that little girls (and sometimes boys) like dressing up in shiny, poofy things and running around pretending to be imaginary characters? Or when brides spend thousands of dollars on their wedding gowns, is it because they care about what the groom and all the other men in the wedding party think? The former isn't complicated because it's just kids being kids, but the later can be because of the extra added depth of societal expectations from and for men and women.

>>10569201
That's a good point, taking a picture and posting yourself online adds a different dimension to it. It becomes more than just wanting to wear nice clothes or enjoy the fashion, when you pose in pictures for social media you inherently make the choice of becoming an object of someone's gaze

>>10569201

Is makeup really for the male gaze tho? My bf prefers me with little to no makeup but clearly in the lolita sphere ott makeup is encouraged.

There's men who will sexualize anything and everything.
Lolitas wear frilly dresses because it makes them happy and fits their definition of a nice aesthetic.
How often are we told "we wont get men dressed like that"? How many actually care?
Men choosing to sexualize something is not on women.

Just because modern sexuality pushes women to wear clothes that appeal to men, doesn't mean that it's always been a given. I personally feel like lolita helps to reclaim women's fashion being by and for women.

where I live I get more attention from men while dressed in Lolita. I don’t wear lolita for them and I don’t want them to find me attractive. im in a relationship too, and although my partner mentions they love me in it, I don’t wear it around them as I worry they over sexualise something that has 0 intent of being seen that way for me.
I want to be pretty, I want to feel cute. I don’t want to feel sexualised at all though.
Idk how helpful or on topic this reply was, but that’s how I feel.

>>10569198
i'm a radfem too, but i feel that with lolita i can finally feel pretty without being attractive to men, as i feel that western men are uninterested about "women dressing up as cute princesses". it's a way to escape male gaze for me

I'm gonna wear whatever I want based on my taste alone. If that makes me more attractive to some men, so be it. It's a byproduct, not the reason.

I just hate how many people ask me if it's a sex thing. There are so many things in life that aren't specifically for sex, but everyone seems to immediately assume this one is.

Radfems can eat some shit. You are a black sheep of feminism

>>10569232
I feel like "natural" makeup despite being treated like a radical soft femininity kinda thing these days has always been a male gaze thing. Not the makeup itself but the idea of looking "natural" because even though men never know what they are talking about they always claim they want a girl who is all natural or doesn't wear a ton of makeup (which is often untrue without them knowing because many men just don't understand makeup, can't tell when women are wearing it, or when they see women without it treat them like they're tired or ugly)

>>10569232
makeup is predominantly made by male-owned businesses, often uses child labour, and definitely profit's off of women's insecurity. Most media don't really portray women without makeup, framing it as a necessity for women, akin to hygiene, and women who don't wear makeup are less likely to get jobs during interviews. I know lots of women say they wear makeup because of self-expression, but I find no-makeup makeup weird because you just paint on a better-looking version of your face, with nothing expressing individuality
I remember when I first got into makeup it was because I hated my appearance as I was a teen. I felt like I needed to look pretty or aesthetically pleasing to exist and I was very insecure in my appearance and feeling like makeup was the way to make me look pretty, if it wasn't for my mother not wearing makeup, I wouldn't feel like I could learn to live without it. I'd say the most feminist thing to do is not wear makeup.
For the most part, I don't wear makeup because I don't really care about performing femininity on a daily basis and I've grown accustomed to my natural face (and partially because I want to normalise not wearing makeup, as cringy as that sounds, so I start with myself), but when I wear lolita, I use makeup using pigments I've made myself because I don't want to give male-owned makeup companies any of my money (also partially because I hear there are lots of ingredients in there that are actually toxic) or makeup from female-owned businesses that I think aren’t toxic. When I wear makeup, I don't wear foundation, despite my dark circles, because it feels strange and I feel like I’m wearing face-paint and not like myself, sort of like that scene from Jeniffer’s body. I honestly wear makeup that, I think, expresses individuality only, even though that seem arbitrary, like blush, eyeshadow and lipstick.

This is just an observation from my personal experience, but men often feel entitled to an explanation of what I’m wearing and almost seem to expect justifications for it. I’ve had men physically stop me and borderline interrogate me about what I’m wearing, and if I give them a short explanation (“it’s just an alternative fashion!”) a lot of them seem to expect more; like me just wanting to wear the clothes isn’t enough.

Personally I don’t see lolita through a male gaze (at least, not consciously), for me the fashion is very divorced from societal expectations of how women should dress.

I feel like lolita is one of the few forms of femininity left in fashion that isn't fully centered around being peak breeding material or whatever. It's not magically excluded, but like the far opposite end of the spectrum of tomboys, everything's some man's fetish. Margaret Atwood said it best, "Even pretending you aren't catering to male fantasies is a male fantasy: pretending you're unseen, pretending you have a life of your own, that you can wash your feet and comb your hair unconscious of the ever-present watcher peering through the keyhole, peering through the keyhole in your own head, if nowhere else. You are a woman with a man inside watching a woman. You are your own voyeur."
>>10569232
your boyfriend is not society at large, there's been numerous studies that women get treated better when wearing "no makeup" makeup vs not wearing makeup.

>>10569232
makeup is predominantly made by male-owned businesses, often uses child labour, and definitely profit's off of women's insecurity. Most media don't really portray women without makeup, framing it as a necessity for women, akin to hygiene, and women who don't wear makeup are less likely to get jobs during interviews. I know lots of women say they wear makeup because of self-expression, but I find no-makeup makeup weird because you just paint on a better-looking version of your face, with nothing expressing individuality like>>10569272 said.

I remember when I first got into makeup it was because I hated my appearance as I was a teen. I felt like I needed to look pretty or aesthetically pleasing to exist and I was very insecure in my appearance and feeling like makeup was the way to make me look pretty, if it wasn't for my mother not wearing makeup, I wouldn't feel like I could learn to live without it. I'd say the most feminist thing to do is not wear makeup.

For the most part, I don't wear makeup because I don't really care about performing femininity on a daily basis and I've grown accustomed to my natural face (and partially because I want to normalise not wearing makeup, as cringy as that sounds, so I start with myself), but when I wear lolita, I use makeup using pigments I've made myself because I don't want to give male-owned makeup companies any of my money (also partially because I hear there are lots of ingredients in there that are actually toxic) or makeup from female-owned businesses that I think aren’t toxic. When I wear makeup, I don't wear foundation, despite my dark circles, because it feels strange and I feel like I’m wearing face-paint and not like myself, sort of like that scene from Jeniffer’s body. I honestly wear makeup that, I think, expresses individuality only, even though that seem arbitrary, like blush, eyeshadow and lipstick.

>>10569283
imagine doing all this and also thinking you are good to wear lolita. god i can't with you crazy fuckers.

>>10569289
>making your own makeup means you can’t wear lolita
???

>>10569291
nta but I think it refers to not wearing foundation

>>10569289
Oh to the noes. Someone who wants to feel good about themselves. You, however, appear to need jizz all over your face to wear lolita.

>>10569294
lolita has never been about the makeup though, unlike say something like gyaru which is entirely dependent on it. i think its totally fine if someone doesnt want to wear makeup in lolita, especially since at its core its something that people are just supposed to wear because they enjoy it, not necessarily get all dolled up and take fancy pictures to post on social media every time they wear it

>>10569298
samefag but lolita has ultimately evolved to become something incredibly performative and based on public approval, which goes against its origins. im fine with people taking pictures to post of themselves, but basing the standards of the fashion around social media has really tainted it desu

Do ya’ll get more attention from men in or out of lolita? I tend to get more but most interactions seem to be more respectful than when I’m in normie clothes. I wear mostly classic and I dress decently outside of lolita but don’t wear makeup.

Lolita is anti male gaze imo, men don't like frilly cake dresses but other women think they're cute. As a non-lolita lesbian I rate this based and lezpilled.

>>10569302
Normie men might not like it, but you're underestimating the sheer number of greasy unwashed weeaboos who have decided to make a "lolita" anime character their waifu and project that onto real life lolitas

>>10569307
The male gaze is based on wanting to appeal to men, and the way such filters into the media and beauty standards. Weeb men aren't high enough in the food chain to influence women's psychology on that level. By your logic, you could say being fat or trans is appealing to the male gaze because genetic dead end scrotes fetishize them.

I have radfem beliefs and lolita is completely separate from my desire for male attention. I don’t wear it around prospective partners, I know when I wear it I won’t be hit on in public, it’s freeing. It’s something I wear completely for myself.

>>10569307
>>10569309
You’re both right to a point. Remember the “cool girl” monologue in Gone Girl? There’s a part where the lead describes that there are different kind of idealized female for different men. Depending on the kind of guy a girl is after, there’s different beauty ideals in different niche subcultures. In general American pop culture the body goal is “slim thicc”, big boobs, big thighs, small waist. In weeb circles, the ideal is still more thin all over, with long limbs and a thigh gap.

A weeb guy might fetishize the fake cosplay version of lolita worn by an anime character, that doesn’t resemble true lolita fashion at all and the reality of the fashion would turn him off before he seriously entered a relationship with a real lolita.

>>10569300
In dark jfashion men hit on me. In lolita or pastel jfashion they avoid me like the plague

>>10569302
>men don't like frilly cake dresses but other women think they're cute
not disagreeing with you, but when I went to texas I got catcalled more times the one day I wore lolita than I have in the past year and I was wearing sneakers and no petti. west coast men don't approach me as often though unless theyre old white boomers

>>10569329
It's possible they saw you as an easy target because you're dressed funny and it would be less likely for people to want to defend you.

I don't view the lolita approach to femininity as intentionally making itself appealing to men, so I don't consider the male gave to be a big factor. I, and I feel many others do as well, dress to please myself. If what I consider pretty and what a man consider pretty line up, that's none of my concern. Coming from someone who's received a lot of negative male attention in my life, wearing lolita makes me feel like I'm reclaiming my femininity, because it's femininity solely for my sake.
Also things like makeup are used to enhance things like complexion, to make you look more well rested and youthful, etc, and good hair makes to look more neat and we'll put together. Those things aren't inherit to the male gaze in my opinion, and other women naturally notice these things too. This discussion can kind of fall into the "sex, death, and taxes" trap of saying anything a woman does is, consciously or not, for male attention if intention is completely disparaged.

Always a bummer when some greasy dude makes classic into his tradwife fantasy though.

EGL is not inherently for the male gaze. Lolitas don't wear the clothing because they think that sparkly dresses or giant platforms will impress men. They wear it because it makes them happy. Gothic, classic, and sweet are just stylistic deviations from a fashion meant to fill the wearer with joy. I'm pretty sure all of us, samefags or trolls or just lurkers, know that the purpose of lolita is to please the woman wearing it.

That being said, I do find that men tend to be drawn to mocking us who wear the fashion, regardless of substyle, because it's both extreme and modest. Men genuinely will be okay with a slutty gf who says she's a lolita wearing Aliexpress trash bags and DDLG rompers... they don't really have the eye for quality when it comes to alternative fashion. Men like women who make themseves small and wear skanky shit for eye candy.

Lolita is a rejection of the male gaze in that sense, which is why it infuriates them. I'm a sweetfag but 99% of the negative reactions I get living in a city come from dudes. And I don't really go out in full coords alone because I've been harassed more than once. I'm very grateful to have an understanding and supportive bf who doesn't mind walking next to a pink frilly blob... but a good amount of men do mind.

I'm okay with being an affront and an eyesore to the average scrote, because their approval means jack shit. I don't wear makeup every time I dress up and I don't obsess over my weight. I recovered from ED and lolita was part of that. After gaining back the weight and realizing that such an ""exclusive"" fashion fit my healthy body so well, it really turned my life around. TL;DR your clothes are for you and you can wear them however the fuck you want.

I feel like the obsession with youth and looking young that is tied to lolita is very male gaze-y. The idea that men age like wine and look better as they age, but women must do anything and everything to retain their youthfulness because aging will make them worthless.

I don't think wanting to be skinny in lolita is a male gaze thing. I pay good money for my dresses, so I want to fit in them. It would just be money down the drain if I wasn't actively working out and eating well. It's for myself, I want to look up to my standards when I look at myself in mirror. I blame the male gaze for some people's view of lolita as some sort of sex and/or ageplay thing though. Coomers should keep their mouth shut and any opinion they voice should be sent straight to the trash can, last thing I need to hear is a sissy telling me about him and his group of friends that all dress like "princesses" too.

>>10569335
>EGL is not inherently for the male gaze. Lolitas don't wear the clothing because they think that sparkly dresses or giant platforms will impress men. They wear it because it makes them happy. Gothic, classic, and sweet are just stylistic deviations from a fashion meant to fill the wearer with joy. I'm pretty sure all of us, samefags or trolls or just lurkers, know that the purpose of lolita is to please the woman wearing it.

But maybe you only feel that was because the patriarchal sociaty has progammed you to

>>10569254
I'm not a radfem really, but as a woman with a curvy body (Not fat, just got tits and ass) I've always found dressing modern and sexy turns the men in my life into lecherous dogs, and I hate it. I not only love lolita for how it looks, but I love that people don't say gross things about me or assume things about my sexuality when I wear it. They compliment my outfit without treating me like a piece of meat. This is such a benefit, it makes me feel so much safer to travel through the world like frilly armor. I only want to be sexy with my romantic partners, people with whom I have expressed my attraction clearly. So in that way, I am with you. Escaping the male gaze is so freeing.

>>10569342
Nayrt, but did the patriarchy program women to do literally everything in their lives? Men used to mock corsets because those uppity women where being too vain and starting their own clothing companies. Women have always done things solely for themselves, contrary to what the patriarchy would have them do.

>>10569344
Fellow curvy anon here--at least I have big boobs and wider hips, my ass is flat if I don't work out regularly tho--and I also feel like frilly dresses, layers, etc. and very girls stuff is sort of protective and keeps dudes from seeing me very sexually and like that. When a guy ever says anything about my lolita like how I should dress more mature or not be so covered up or whatever else I can mentally write him off and keep away from him. It's like a vetting system for any male I want to be friends or interact with (I already have a bf who doesn't mind my lolita and is supportive of it and also likes to dress well himself, so it no longer applies to romantic interests)

>>10569342
I Am Going To Murder You

>>10569283

Ok I sort of see what you mean although I really didn't need your entire routine lol.

I think ott makeup is such a great way of taking back femininity, it's too much for men even if they foisted unrealistic expectations on us. It's a gigantic fuck you to them. Like oh you like long lashes? How about these? And then watch them recoil in horror. It's great.

You say Lolita to most people and they think of the pedophile stuff
Sad but true
Wish there was a different name for it

>>10569352
Online I feel like lolita attracts sexual attention, if only because people 1) go looking for it deliberately 2) are less afraid to say gross things online, especially if it’s anonymous. But in person I just get angry scrotes demanding a justification for how I dress, I haven’t gotten any sexual attention.

>>10569335
>Lolita is a rejection of the male gaze in that sense, which is why it infuriates them
this makes so much sense. Men can't understand why a woman would dress in a way they they do not personally find attractive, and therefore harass them for it. Makes sense why every single boy who bullied me for having short hair as a kid told me "boys don't like that"

>>10569232
>Is makeup really for the male gaze tho?
Yes. Guys don’t like the look of women without makeup or the ‘natural’ look, they just assume everyone has to be wearing bright ass blue paint on their face to be wearing makeup.

>>10569361
yeah, I sorta ended up talking about myself lol. I just wanted to divulge my thoughts regarding this sorta stuff before the thread turned to shit, luckily it hasn't (yet)

>>10569210
>At least your money will be going into the pockets of other women instead of some rich male CEO making millions off the beauty industry
There are just as many women in positions such as those and they're likely to be equally sexist, making money off of the beauty industry in the exact same way. Not really a woman-loving radical feminist win

>>10569335
This. Lolita has always been widely hated by western and Japanese men.

>>10569336
That's just related to an overall obsession with youth. Fashion subcultures worldwide have always been largely led by young people because it's assumed to be part of teenage rebellion. Once you grow up you're "supposed" to leave that stuff all behind and become an actual adult with a job who wears normal people clothes. It's not like you see men with wrinkles or receding hairlines in street snaps or publications either.

>>10569342
ayrt, nice baitpost but you should have paid attention in school

For me personally lolita has become synonymous with viewing myself through the male gaze, ever since my bf told me it became a huge turn on for him after we started dating. Now I feel sexualized whenever I wear it, or think about how it will make him feel when he sees me enjoying my dumb frilly dresses. I love him, but I hope this doesn't suck all the joy out of wearing the clothes that make me so happy somewhere down the line.

>>10569365
I’ve gotten plenty of sexual attention in it. I find if you’re attractive it doesn’t matter what you wear, scrotes will be gross and hit on you.

>>10569395
You don't even have to be attractive, scrotes will be gross and hit on any women

>>10569337
I agree about losing weight for lolita not being about the male gaze. I really want to lose weight in my chest for lolita + himekaji even though that’s the part of my body that I get the most positive attention from

Everything is someone's fetish so you will always be sexualized
But the amount of guys who like frilly dresses are far less than the ones who like tight revealing clothes
Just dress like men if it bothers you so much

>>10569335
I feel this in my soul and a lot of babylitas I know don't seem to get this. This fashion is about making -yourself- happy and wearing things -you- like. It's completely egotistic. If you're wearing lolita as some kind of performitive act to get validation or attention from others, you've missed the point. Dressing up should always be something you do to sparks joy directly within yourself. As long as you can make decent coords, you don't -need- makeup or perfect wigs or huge petticoats irl. You don't need to be Instagram perfect 24/7 and being addicted to social media instant gratification is a problem. If you're relationship with lolita revolves around farming for positive feedback from anyone outside of yourself there's a problem. The Lolita Police aren't going to arrest your if your pinks aren't perfect and you have no makeup if your out running errands. You also don't have to post everything you ever wear online. Other people's opinions shouldn't even be considered.

Though... this is assuming they can coord their way out of a paper bag.

>>10569195
As someone who got into lolita for the philosophy of it, I love this thread.

>>10569232
i'm guessing you and your bf are relatively young. when you start getting wrinkles and circles under your eyes, this will not be the case

I don't dress for men. I dress only for myself. I got offers in shitty jeans and sneakers as often as in skirts and it never crossed my mind to do anything other than simply scowl because someone interrupted my day.

>>10569435

Oof anon, hope things get better for you soon. I heard eye cream and sunscreen help.

>>10569435
Do you mean dark circles because that happens to young people too yknow

>>10569195
honestly if I were to look at myself through the male gaze, I'd find I'd be a lot more confident in my looks. my own gaze is a mean bitch. I basically bully myself over my looks everyday.

This isn't the farm.

>>10569451
yeah this lol. I've had dark circles since I was a toddler. I've always looked like an exhausted ghoul desu. I don't think they've ever aged me but it's certainly a case of unfortunate genetics.

>>10569265
>I just hate how many people ask me if it's a sex thing.
Who asks you this?

>>10569435
Also make up does not get rid of wrinkles. If anything it emphasizes them.

>>10569461
NAYRT, but almost always scrotes with some exceptions. Those who weren't were pretty much extremely judgemental and jealous busted up moms. As for s*ro*es, you already know how it goes. Modern living is hell. COVID should have wiped us out.

>>10569462
you don't use retinoids?

>>10569404
>Just dress like men if it bothers you so much
Even that wouldn't deter some

>>10569463
Did you tell the name of the fashion or did they assume it was a sex thing based on how it looks?

can someone tell me again why seceding from men is a terrible idea? like, i'm not joking. by 2050 I think we can come up with something. most of not all conflict in life, when you really boil it all down, stems from scrotes feeling entitled to a wife. they commit 83% of all crime, like 91% of all rapes, and somehow we're supposed to brush it all aside. i feel that literally everyone would benefit from the segregation I think. pick-mes especially would immediately wisen up the moment they're completely alone and take the lespill.

>>10569470
Nah the pick me's would commit sudoku
they can't live without the attention

>>10569464

Retinoids would also eliminate the need for makeup anyways.

>>10569473
i think they'll change their tune after i'm done with them whether they like it or not lmao. i've converted plenty of women, then again it's not too hard with how little effort scrotes put in into pleasing their partners.

>>10569467
No, they just came up to me.

>>10569474
I wish this was true

>>10569473
true af nonny. I don't think I'm a pickme but I know no woman would put up with my shit as a romantic partner or take care of my needy ass. sudoku would be my only option

>>10569474 #
I wish this was true

>>10569473 #
true af nonny. I don't think I'm a pickme but I know no woman would put up with my shit as a romantic partner or take care of my needy ass. sudoku would be my only option

I dress up in spite of attention. I hate attention, and I don't post on social media. But I do my make-up purely so that if I run into a gull irl she doesn't think I'm ita. If I was invisible to other people, I wouldn't wear make-up: I'm pretty without it, and I hate the feeling of eyeshadow getting in the corner of my eye. I would still wear jfashion so that I have the cute details for myself to look at wherever I go. I would probably also go nude some days or wear ho clothing just for the novelty of not getting hit on in it.

>>10569470
I'm here for it, if robot boyfriends become an option then real men will become redundant, except for purpose of reproduction.

I just wanted to say most lolitas are plain at best and the clothes look stupid as fuck. If you feel "the male gaze", it's because you look like an ugly retard trapped in middle school weeabooism, because you are

>>10569435
horribly depressing to think that a man will never love my natural face or still desire me as I age. This is why being a femcel is the best path to happiness.

>>10569470
Ew no I don't want straight girls coming in calling themselves lesbians just cause they're edgy femcels gtfo

>>10569448
everybody ages eventually no matter how much care you show to your skin

>>10569515
this reeks of scrote.

>>10569519

Not as much as you nonny mwah. Although I'd be haggard too if I had to put on makeup to be desirable for my partner.

>>10569232
It isn't if your not affected by it and your intent is clear. Makeup for you is never about anyone but you. People may try and tell you that you wouldn't want to use it if society at large hadn't made you want to use it but that's mostly projection. If you use it for self expression or as an accessory to your outfit to please yourself. no one else matters.

>>10569534
nayrt but you're putting on skincare products to be more desirable to the public for longer so you're not really winning either
>>10569537
You must be over the age of 18 to post on 4chan

>>10569540

Cool, you just want to be contrarian about people looking conventionally good looking and make that into male gaze.

In any case, it's pretty simple. If man no like OTT falsies and rainbow makeup, and woman put falsies and rainbow makeup on, she no doing it for man.

>>10569326
pretty much this

As a guy with both normalfag and cosplay friends, if you guys want men to leave you alone in day-to-day life I highly recommend lolita. From what I can tell, most of us find the fashion to be way too theatrical, and it signals impending conflict/pushback. I've had guys tell me that they straight up wanted to approach, but they felt it would be awkward, and these are the same dudes who relentlessly pursue in clubs and bars and are usually successful. What this basically translates to is that a woman rocking an extravagant fashion-style is likely to not take any shit and not be worth the effort in engaging.
i have no stake in this constant scrote vs. femposter shitflinging. The true nature of men is that none of us are looking for an equal, and weebs/neckbeards are those who crave power the most.

>>10569543
Praying you pick up a book one day anon, I believe in you

>>10569547

It's ok i'll pass on that circlejerk, have fun overreading everything though!

>>10569470
Girls school and women’s college comes pretty close. Then if you want to extend that beyond student years, you can either teach at one or become a nun.

I wear Lolita because I love the frilly dresses. I am also a guy. I don't approach lolitas, comment, or stare at them in public.

I do feel like lolita rejects male gaze. I wiew it as a feminist statement. It's aggressively feminine and loud and takes up space. It's non-apologetic in it's femininity and it rejects most of western beauty standards. At the same time it's modest, it hides the natural curves of the highly sexualized female body instead of accentuating them. Most lolitas also hate men in the fashion and wish to keep it a female-only space, rightfully so. Men can politely fuck off from the fashion.
Idk I feel powerful when I wear lolita, it's such a "fuck you" to so many of society's expectations. Alternative fashion is always inherently punk imo.

>>10569597
>At the same time it's modest, it hides the natural curves of the highly sexualized female body instead of accentuating them.

The whole point of lolita is that it covers the body, thus making t about the clothes and not about the wearer as >>10569344
and >>10569352 said. Not all women are curvy btw

If y'all want to see the difference between lolita for male gaze and lolita for females, I present to you, the one time some scrote dumbass started a "lolita" thread on /jp/ and then jannies moved it over to /cgl/ :

https://archive.rebeccablacktech.com/cgl/thread/10352007/

The ideal lolita shape is so adverse to what society says men should be attracted to that I genuinely enjoy wearing binders and hiding my body under frilly layers that I can finally feel safer in public.

>>10569510
based desu

I don't like men looking at me when I'm in lolita. I wear this fashion for me and not for anyone else but I kinda puts me under pressure.

>>10569337
i relapsed into my ED due to wanting to fit into more ap. my bf didn’t understand because he thought i wanted to be skinny to be more attractive (to who, him?). not saying yay ED, but more, im the same with wanting to look my best in the dresses i love and invest time and money in. it’s for sure not about the male gaze.

>>10569393
a guy I was dating became really sexual and weird when he found out I enjoyed lolita fashion and said he wanted to bonk me in it. i called stuff off between us not long after out of fear it would ruin the one good thing in my life that matters solely to me and is for me. I understand your worries.
I hope stuff goes well for you and he doesn’t make it weird for you.

>>10569335
I feel like I need to read this every day of my life, just to remember why I wear lolita. Thanks anon.

>>10569616
>The whole point of lolita is that it covers the body, thus making t about the clothes and not about the wearer
Yes, that's exactly what I meant.

>Not all women are curvy btw
This is true and I stand corrected.

Dude here, won't post dick so fuck off.

I lurk this board off and on for years due to a friend showing me it. She passed away, so it's a bit of a habit. Know fuck all about fashion but most men don't care, it's just that it's still a tad exotic and different. Ignore the pervs, dress however you want. Not even trying to argue. One of the few things that remind me of my friend, and I don't know if that's why I never found it sexual or not, but ladies ignore others and do what makes you happy.

Don't let this fucked up world get you down and drive you into an eating disorder or some other fucked up behavior to get some random fuck's approval.

Please, I can't bare anyone else fucking themselves up into death over some fucking bs.

>>10569335
I like you and this post. More need this attitude.

>>10569679
Its cool you honor her by encouraging others to love themselves

>>10569195
I initially believed lolita to be free of male influence, a representation of a female aesthetic made only for women.
Most people tell you no man is going to like you when you dress like this . . . . But in my experience all that is a complete lie.
Most men I’ve dated while in this hobby find it thrilling to say the least.
The either like the convoluted nature of the community, some have been exited by the whimsy of the clothing and obviously there are the ones that find it "sexy" (not in a ddlg way, more in a thigh high socks and platform heels look good on you kinda way)
and I am going to be honest I dont mind any of it. Fur Sure there are lolita choices that are hard for any normie to stomach no man or woman have been "ok" seeing me in a bonnet for the first time.
I think if anything, lolita is opposite to what our society thinks of as "the male gaze", or what I call the "old school male gaze". What men fetishize on women (and by extension women do onto themselves) is very different now days.
I think if anything the price of lolita is the biggest "feminist" statement about it. There is a lot of power in saying yea I spend 1000 euros to look like this just coz I want to look like a princess, and whether people like or find it as valuable as you it doesn't really matter, because you do.

>>10569195
normie men avoid me in lolita, but it's like a shining beacon for geeky/shy men lol

anyway i don't have much of a hot take except that i've noticed how (straight) women feeling in direct competition with each other translates to lolita. i do think that this is kind of a weird side effect of men existing, but i'm not gonna pretend i'm versed enough in gender studies to write a diatribe about it.

i just wish women were nicer to each other, picrel could be us

>>10569724
dammit i dropped my wholesome image

>>10569724
I agree with the female competition aspect. Honestly that is pervasive in any mainly female community or niche. Women are trained to make other women the enemy, to the benefit of men.

You'll probably find however there are plenty of nice, sane lolitas, especially in the real world. We just tend to be more quiet or private, so its unlikely that we are as active online.

>>10569724
>i just wish women were nicer to each other
Same. Cute pic anon. I hang out with some cool lesbians and they’re definitely more chill than my straight friends.

>>10569725
Didn't Sakura's friend in the original anime dress her up for her own personal enjoyment and fanservice though? It was pretty gay, and I mean that in the most positive way possible.

>>10569728
>>10569730
anons confirmed for Cool and Good

>>10569731
oh totally. aside from being pretty gay, i chose tomoyo/sakura because tomoyo just genuinely loves her and wants her to shine--an attitude in direct contrast to what i commonly see between women (i hate to make sweeping generalizations but take /cgl/ and the lolita community as just a small sample set)

tomoyoposting intensifies

>>10569232
it absolutely is for the male gaze, no matter what 'oh no it's for myself' bitches say. You don't see the makeup you put on unless you stare at your mirror all day. OTHERS look at your make-up. It's a shitty gigantic business praying on your insecurities, and relying on your addiction; lots of women can't even look at themselves without foundation or penciled brows
>>10569511
If you want to avoid that don't wear make-up. My bf loves how my face looks like, because it's the face he sees both when he wakes up in the morning and when we go out for dinner. "Men won't like you without makeup" is a meme.

>>10569739
Man, I just wear makeup so it blends in with my ott coord and people pay attention to my clothes instead of my face. The only time I wear makeup is for lolita, and men definitely don’t like it, at least where I live.

>>10569739

I'm op of the post but I'm at work right now and the only thing I have on is sunblock lol. I think I can stand to see myself without makeup.

>>10569739
me not like other women! other women bitches! women no allowed to feel pretty for themselves!

>>10569739
oh yeah, cishet guys love nothing more than makeup

>>10569770
>me not like other women! other women bitches! women no allowed to feel pretty for themselves!
kek but true

>>10569195
lolita looks terrible to guys and probably signifies some mental disorder you really don't want to get tangled up with. i cannot imagine anything much less appealing to muh male gaze, you have to stop passing the buck sometime ladies

>>10569833
desu sweet lolita is the dog whistle of mentally ill codependent woman childs everywhere. not saying that's true for most sweet lolitas but that's how normie men (and sometimes not normie men) are usually gonna perceive it. well executed classic and gothic won't usually get clocked for batshit crazy peter pan syndrome by the average man

>>10569833
>lolita looks terrible to guys
good

>>10569739
>be gyaru
okay.

How do you avoid the dyke gaze?

>>10569844
You don't. You embrace it.

>>10569543
...who do you think defines what "conventionally good looking" is in the first place? The patriarchy. Ignorance sure is bliss, huh anon?

>>10569847

Everyone has a idea of what's good looking anon, even lesbians. Is everyone just coopted by the patriarchy?

>>10569854
everything is the patriarchy, and everything not the patriarchy is caused by the patriarchy
they're like /pol/ with jews

>>10569844
There’s no way to avoid any gaze. Anyone can be ‘hot’ to anyone else.
But as a lesbian most gay women are pussies about hitting on women so even if someone found you cute you probably wouldn’t get hit on. There’s also a lot of self hatred so you won’t get creeped on the way men would since lesbians are afraid of being seen as predatory given all the harmful tropes in media.
Also people assume feminine women are straight and that’s a turn off to a lot of lesbians too.

I feel like you weren’t actually asking for advice and you just wanted an excuse to be homophobic tho

>>10569854
>conventionally good looking
>conventionally

Somewhat related to this thread but there's a modern misconsception that lolita originally was supposed to be unattractive to men, but that's not actually correct. The idea that lolita is "unattractive" to men, isn't that it's supposed to be physically unattractive necessarily, but that the lifestyle and idea of women buying and dressing and acting how they want is unattractive. Lolita physically implies that you're selfish and only do things for herself without caring about other people's opinions, more than anything else.

>>10569863
NTA, but there's definitely people who are universally unattractive or attractive.

>>10569739
>If you want to avoid that don't wear make-up

The post I was replying to was about how not wearing makeup means your partner will see how you age and think you’re ugly.

>>10569888
god you're retarded.

>>10569458
i personally have always thought that dark circles look cool and cute

>>10569911
are you male? otherwise no1curr

>>10569911
thank you nonny <3

>>10569911
same

>>10569195
>wanting to look good only matters because of MEN
lol.
okay sweetie. I bet you think guys work out in order to appeal to other big muscular men too in some weird attempt to release sex hormones to seduce stronger hairy men to hold them down and have their way with them while they're struggling on leg lifts.

>>10569955
you'd be surprised anon....

>>10569913
You've got it backwards, anon-chan.

>>10569774
This is unironically true, they just don't know what makeup actually looks like. For men, no makeup makeup > subtle makeup > bare face > drag queen kei. Men want women that look perfect but they want to delude themselves into thinking that the woman put any effort into it because that would make her shallow.

>>10569868
How does wearing lolita imply that you are selfish lol
Quit being stupid, you can wear lolita and care about other people’s wellbeings. Opinions are dogshit they don’t matter in the course of things

I feel like this is just a western problem with lolita. Lolita is by no means ugly, in fact its extremely adorable and attractive to both men and females. Its not that the fashion itself is ugly, its that the people who tend to gravitate toward it are just ugly hambeasts and losers who couldn't look good with actually clothes so they feel like a louder outfit will make up for their body deficiencies.

Nobody looks at a cute Japanese girl in lolita and thinks she's ugly. They think she has eccentric fashion tastes, which she does, but she's still cute and the outfit is cute too.
On the other hand, its harder to find literally anybody in the west the "pulls it off" because its not only a niche fashion choice taken up by rejects and weirdos, its a niche fashion choice within a niche of already pathetic rejected losers into anime and Japanese stuff. Its a niche of failures within a niche of failures, so only the worst of the worst in the west get into it.

>>10569961
This comes across as a scrote with yellow fever who thinks all Japanese girls are '10/10 uwu soft maidens' and thinks Japan is A-okay with lolita

>>10569961
you put it extremely harshly so people are gonna react negatively to it, but there is an inkling of truth here. we rarely see conventionally pretty people in lolita (and when we do, they get dragged/victimized by vendetta-chans) so from an outsider's perspective, most lolitas do kinda look like ugly freaks.

however >>10569974 has a point that there are ugly/not conventionally attractive Japanese lolitas--we just don't see them often, because we only really look at brand photos and street snaps that are specifically taken because the person looks good

>>10569961
nice bait ya lonely faggot. You'll never find a kawaii japanese anime lolita waifu uwu

>>10569961
bait but I'll bite, nom nom
>nobody looks at a cute Japanese girl in lolita and thinks she's ugly.
you're missing the point nonny. they don't think she's ugly, no, but I'm sure there would be plenty of dudes who wouldn't want to go to the grocery store with her wearing a baby rattle necklace and a pastel dress with toys on it no matter how cute she is.

>>10569974
Naturally not ALL Japanese girls in lolita are cute, but being the 'home' of lolita with direct access to product lines and getting hired as models, you see more attractive girls in lolita there as they're being marketed to directly.

The west isn't a market for lolita, its people latching onto something because they're weebs or somehow learned of the niche style from another country.

Its the difference between seeing a girl in 70s hippy shit nowdays. It looks funny but she can still pull it off and is cute, and there's still product lines and people marketing to those people.

>>10569959
can you read? anon is saying that's why men don't like it and that's what men think of the fashion, god you fuckers are stupid.

>>10569975
>conventionally pretty people in lolita
just say ugly, they're fucking ugly. straight up uggos.

and maybe by itself that would be fine. you can be ugly and still look decent in fashion with the right choices.
The other problem with being a Japanese fashion in the West is that Westies think they have something to prove and they need to follow guidelines to the letter for things to be the perfect lolita, and anything else is heresy and deserves to be punished/isn't "real" lolita.
So in Japan you'll see a girl find a cute dress she likes, pair it with random shit that looks good with it, and go out. Not giving a single fuck if its "real lolita". In the west you try that and every hambeast with an inferiority complex (see all of them) will start foaming at the mouth screaming in rage at how she's ruining the dress.

>>10569728
>Women are trained to make other women the enemy
You mean western culture in general.

>>10569961
Troll but he does have a point. All of you saying lolita turns men off probably wouldnt be getting much male attention even if you went out in "sexy" clothes.
A hot girl will get male attention no matter what she wears.

>>10570065
i'm conventionally pretty (in the context of where i live)--guys treat me way differently in lolita than they do when i wear normie clothes. hot girls don't really look hot in lolita

>>10570070
sure you are sweetie. the fact you needed to specify context says enough.

>>10570077
seethe, bridge troll.

OP here. Ugliness has nothing to do with male gaze. Make your own thread about who’s ugly in lolita.

>>10570070
it's cause they think you're nuts.

>>10569540
Are you saying you take care of your body for other people because I sure as hell don't. Not everything has to be about other people. Some of us don't go out of our homes but we still take care of ourselves and dress up. No one sees us, it's for us. Just because i may benefit from someones actions does not mean they did them to benefit me.

>>10569455
pic related

>>10569470
female separatism is good actually

>>10569195
i don't think it's inherently contradictory unless you consider yourself an anti-capitalist. there are probably philosophical arguments to be made about making purchased items a major part of your identity or collecting garments being bad, but i'm still going to wear gothic lolita.

>>10569622
This. A lot of my body image issues are related to feeling like my body is able to be seen as sexual (appealing to the male gaze), to the point where I dress in baggy masculine clothes when I'm not in lolita, and I bind my chest most of the time. However I dress, I want to feel like I'm in control of my body and that I can prevent it from being seen as a sex object (though I know it's irrational and how others perceive me can't be controlled, it's a trauma response I guess)

>ITT: you are an 18 year old who has taken her first feminist theory class and never kissed a boy

>>10569959
Imagine having the reading comprehension of a 9 month old

>>10569622
You're fucking retarded.
The ideal lolita shape is a tiny petite japanese girl, literally the epitome of what society says men are attracted to.
Lolita is not and was never designed for disgusting fatasses who need to "hide" their body.

>>10570269
Actually men attracted to nonwhite non curvy (but still slim) women are deviant from the norm a bit.

>>10570274
we are talking about japanese standards, larper

>>10570276

We're talking about Japan and the west clearly based on experiences that have been discussed here you retarded weeb

>>10569861
>There's no way to avoid any gaze. avoid any gaze. Anyone can be ‘hot’ to anyone else.

This. people have different ways of looking at something and even women have things they consider attractive about men.

the sooner anons in this board start treating men and women as actual people with their own thoughts, ideals, etc. rather than some collective group the sooner they'd realize that. but they're more concerned with how other women who aren't like them are pick mes and handmaidens. The idea that a woman would never hurt another woman and society would be significantly better without men is nothing short of denial to anyone who has ever had an abusive mother or girlfriend.

Lolita wasn't invented to "hide" from male gaze. It was invented as a show of being obnoxiously feminine and an extension of kawaii culture which gained traction for women being able to say they can be childish and obnoxiously feminine as an adult woman. It had nothing to do with modesty like western lolitas say considering that almost any and every japanese fashion is modest

Oh my god, this fucking thread...

>>10570274
>men like fat girls!
>really!
lol no.

>>10570054
East Asian cultures are a lot more competitive at least compared to European cultures I know.

>>10570289
The male gaze is more than just finding someone hot, i suppose women do it too but it's a bit rarer. The women who do it to men tend to be more brash about it, because they think they can get away with it as women. But more men seem to be effected by it, probably only because of the way society pushes it.

But anyway the difference is between thinking someone is hot, and not being able to differentiate their looks and personhood. I.e when some guys see you as hypersexual or as an object for pleasure just because of how you look as a woman.

And again please note i already said some women have an objectifying gaze towards men too. People get so defensive over this topic i feel the need to clarify twice against my better judgement. But if you don't, people will ignore that you said it

>>10570327
Honestly IMO male gaze is poorly defined. It's become something where if any guy finds a woman attractive, any fanservice moment, etc. is just "male gaze". It doesn't really matter whether guys like her for other traits or aspects if they find her hot the so-called critics will just say they only like her because "male gaze".

If you remove the "male gaze" and just look at characters, celebs, etc. objectively... It really goes both ways. There are plenty of women who lust after male celebs and characters just for the sole purpose of sexual desire or fantasy and it isn't talked about or acknowledges because hot men in media get brushed off as "male fantasies" and therefore, women are somehow removed from the equation.

it's honestly how you get women like momokun that think sexual assault is fine as a woman cause people just don't talk about how women can be objectifying or sexualizing other women because it is not seen as something that is bad. Whereas, male gaze is bad and therefore just gets all the attention even though the definition of it ranges from "Sexy female character that exists and does badass things" to "Sexy female character who exists only to be sexy".

>>10569992
>Westies

>>10569335
Great post anon, it's something I'd like to frame on my wall.

>>10569978
>but being the 'home' of lolita with direct access to product lines and getting hired as models
You do know that there's western girls who model for lolita right scrote?

>>10570432
Damn, she's ugly. You really all are ugly retards trapped in middle school weeabooism

>>10570436
>trapped in middle school weeabooism
>Implying this is a bad thing
You're on a weebshit imageboard website anyway, so what did you expect?

>>10570437
I had my phase at 18-19, so high school weeabooism I guess

>>10570391
>if any guy finds a woman attractive, any fanservice moment, etc. is just "male gaze".

Fanservice designed to titillate a male audience is the definition of male gaze. It doesn’t matter if the guy “likes her for other reasons”. The camera is ogling her ass not her intelligence or talents.

>>10570488
>The camera is ogling her ass not her intelligence or talents.
Which isn't a problem per se.
It's perfectly fine to have anime focus on someone's intelligence or talents. It's also perfectly fine to have anime focus on someone's physical attractiveness.

>>10570488
Shut the fuck up, cunt. You want men to be condemned for their natural libido and women to wear hijabs. Stop being jealous of prettier people.

>>10570506
>You want men to be condemned for their natural libido
yes

>>10570508
I wasn't asking, cunt.

>>10570510
yes you were

>>10570492
>It's also perfectly fine to have anime focus on someone's physical attractiveness.
Anime characters aren’t “someone” they are objects drawn by men to be lusted after by men.

>>10570506
yes

>>10570515
>they are objects drawn by men
False in most cases. Many studios have female majority in their staff.
>to be lusted after by men
False in many cases (albeit not most). You can just watch shoujo/yaoi/reverse harem if that's what you're looking for. Some men also like those genres, but the majority of their public are women.
Do you follow anime at all?

>>10570515
You realize there are female doujin artists and bi/lesbian weebs, right?

>>10570521
>>10570523
Yeah I’m sure when Horikoshi gave a high schooler massive tits and a skimpy costume in My Hero Academia, he was thinking of lesbians

>>10570546
Sarcasm aside, he wasn't. Which goes back to what I said in >>10570492, that isn't a problem per se.
Just like it isn't a problem that タチ only writes yuri, and just like it's fine that miniwa only writes BL strictly targetting the girls audience.

>>10570515
>Anime characters aren’t “someone” they are objects drawn by men to be lusted after by men.
damn... I guess as a lesbian that reads manga drawn by japanese lesbians and finds the characters to be attractive I'm just perpetuating the cycle of men drawing for other men...

>>10570557
>>10570582
You realize that when people are talking about "the male gaze" they aren't usually talking about content or media made by women? But even then, no woman who makes anime/tv shows/movies was raised in a vacuum away from male made media. You can be a woman and still pander to the male gaze for profit.

It's not the end of the world to enjoy something thats male gazey. It isn't indicative of quality. I like movies that are full of the male gaze and objectify the actresses in it. I can still acknowledge it though.

>>10570595
>lesbian draw something she finds appealing for the sake of other lesbians
>but its male gaze because men exist and might like it
k.

>>10570595
anon, first things first, none of the posts you quoted mentioned "the male gaze" at all. One is basically saying "it's ok to draw lewd" and the other one is saying "I like my girls-doing-cute-girls manga as drawn by japanese lesbians".

If you take a drawing of a cute character, imo you shouldn't say "look, it's the male gaze". IMO that's very unfair to the artist, who could be a man or a woman. Their work now no longer is being judged or appreciated by itself, but rather taken to the optics of American gender politics.
Calling an erotic work "objectifying" is very demoralizing for the artists that put thousands of hours of dedication to get good enough to make that work. It's okay to not like it, but please don't treat it like it's something wrong.

>>10569195
What’s this photo from anyway?

>>10570709
Deka Wanko

>>10569364
If someone asks me in a way I can’t dodge, I’ll tell them it’s called “dolly style” or just “a style from Japan”. If I think someone is genuinely interested in knowing more I’ll tell them to look up “egl fashion”. I avoid using lolita at all costs unless in knowledgeable company.

>>10570510

>>10569364
I just say the name of whatever brand I’m wearing if someone asks. Normies understand the concept of brand names and designer clothes, including that designer clothes sometimes look odd to them, so they usually get it.

The only aspect where male opinion matters to me is that I only wear more "mature" gothic or classic outfits when I'm out with my husband, because being seen with me in sweet makes him feel uncomfortable because he thinks it's too weeby and embarasses him.

>>10570827
your husband is WEAK

Ugly women complain about "male gaze". Pretty women do photoshoots dressed as zero suit Samus and 2B.

>>10570860
Remain calm, simp, there are more beautiful women in the world than just your ethot.

>>10570827
This is like the opposite of me and my husband. He loves sweet lolita prints and would totally wear them if he was a girl (or at least a more reasonable height than 6’6”). Loves buying cute pins and t-shirts and things like that. Meanwhile I’m not interested in sweet have only ever worn classic.

>>10570864
Take your own advice and stop being angry because men won't look at you.

>tfw lesbian and like make-up

Male gaze kek

>>10570996

Nah now you're just pandering to coopted male gaze according to anons above. No lesbian is supposed to like patriarchal makeup oppression.

>>10571023
Looks like the only winning move is to not play these stupid mind games.

>>10571034
the patriarchy predicted this

>>10571036
The Patriarchy must have some Elder God tier seers and prophets in it's employment.

>>10571034
Take the acepill

>>10571034

Omg ur such a dumbass anon read a (academic feminist circlejerk) book.

>>10570274
statistics show american men of all races rank asian women as the most attractive. asian women are typically tiny with no tits or ass. so nah

>>10571142
I'm talking about representations of ideal women in the media/the main Eurocentric beauty standard that is promoted, even if guys want to fuck us more or whatever, the standard is still a slim and fit, not too tall or short white woman with some t&a but not crazy insta model levels.

>>10570291
In what world is a slim girl fat?

>>10571147
Woops, meant to reply to >>10570294

>>10569335
based and pinkpilled as fuck

>>10570510
seethe you fucking useless scrote

Glad to see the thread hasn't completely derailed, I figured it would fill up with infighting like the ita thread usually does but it was eye opening to read everyone's experiences and opinions

Inb4 Oh great another scrote

Yeah, I am one. I'm not a longtime lolita either since I only have a few dresses and I haven't been able to put together a cord with all the pieces being specifically for lolita. That being mentioned, getting my first brand dress and wearing it in a bathroom at night looking at myself in a mirror did mentally change me alot. I started thinking about how I could lose weight, how I could make my face look better, and that I should really get used to wearing contacts. Then I started thinking about how people would react to me and how a guy might react to me if I was in a complete cord and passed for a woman. I've crossplayed before and had a similar experience except it was with three (presumably) homeless guys and thinking back to it sent a actual chill down my spine. It made me remember how I felt a never before felt fear when walking at night and how I was (sorta) harrased on two occasions when I was dressed as a woman when I had never been harassed as a guy once in my life. Remembering all that made me respect females more since they get so much flak for existing in a world that caters to guys and allows and in some places and situations encourages shitty behaviour.

TLDR: Scrote dresses up in overpriced chinese dresses and is sad that society with kick his ass if it finds out there's a wurst under all that raschel lace

>>10569283
You're a fucking idiot lol

>>10571214
thanks for posting your masturbation fantasies, as boring as they are predictable

>>10571214
Fucking hell this is for MALE GAZE no man will gaze at you other than another scrote

>>10571214
go away fetishist

>>10569195
>Living a healthy lifestyle and having a fit body
>Toxic male gaze

Feminism has really corrupted logic.

>>10571214
See how women treat an "ally".

>>10571256
lame disingenuous bait but skinny doesn't mean healthy, obviously being a landwhale isn't healthy either but being a skelly like most models and shooped pics requires one to live an extremely unhealthy lifestyle (see: EDs)

>>10571310
cope

>>10571303
More like women are getting smarter.
Men who loudly proclaim to be allies/male feminists/SJWs etc are the ones most likley to be pedos and rapists

>>10571142
>source: trust me grill

>>10571312
nta but skellymode is never truly healthy unless you're a natural ectomorph type. in all cases, it's better to eat what your body needs then work out to get some nice muscle and tone.

/cgl/ has been especially bad about reasonable body image lately. starving yourself (and i don't just mean a normal calorie deficit, i mean eating like <1000 a day every day) is a low IQ solution because it fucks up your body and ability to lose weight normally in the long term.

there's healthy skinny, and then there's unhealthy skinny. the true cope is believing the latter is the better option.

>>10571322
Anon jumped from "having a fit body" to the extreme of skinny. She is fat and trying to discredit what makes her feel insecure.

>>10571316
so much this
reminds me of what happened this week. someone made a increased boob jiggle mod for Smash, and one of the guys complaining the loudest about how it disrespected women, admitted being a pedo in the same week. lmao
a few dudes out there legit care about women tho, but they aren't those loud sjw types

>>10571322
>Living a healthy lifestyle and having a fit body
>skellymode
choose one and only one

>>10571331
Fucking this. Men who actually give two shits about women don't waste time trying to convince them through words on the internet, they just behave like decent people who actually care about women. The ones posturing on social media are usually outright predators or men who still feel entitled to sex, etc. and given the chance would take advantage of women despite how "nice" they claim to be.

>>10571332
healthy lifestyle and body 100%. you can still have a small waist and nice arms, which are basically the only measurements that are particularly noticeable in lolita. aside from boob i guess, but that's so variated between women i won't even touch that topic.

/fit/litas rise up

>>10569195
Fuck the male gaze in its entirety. I got tired of dressing because I think a man will find me unattractive. There are plenty of other women in the world he can ogle at.

Open radical feminism on 4chan. Topkek

>>10571341
its ok because /cgl/ are TERFs

>>10571343
/cgl/ is cosplay and lolita, not politics. All those cunts trying to coopt the place should fuck off.

>>10571347
dilate

>>10571348
Don't be mad at me because men make better women than you. That is your failure.

>>10571350
>an inverted, infected penis tube that grows hair on the inside as a "vagina"
>at least 90% never pass, and even if they get top surgery their body proportions are still clearly male
i'm a lesbian (cis girls only) for a reason lmao

>>10571334
Ngl, wasn't expecting to see such a based post in this morning

>>10569195
>for example judging our own attractiveness
unless a man is interested in fucking you he literally could not give a fuck about how you look unless you look like you are unpleasant to be around (i.e. you signal that you dont take care of yourself, or that you have a bad attitude). i feel like this doesnt get said often enough, men just do not care.

t. dude who swings by once in a while to ask questions about garment repairs.

>>10571350
thankfully your kind aren't good at anything except eradicating yourselves from this earth at lightning speeds, cope harder

>>10571355
are they really a man if they lose their balls though? i mean, one of the benefits of male/male relationships is typically higher income, or at the very least higher proportions of income saved. theres no shortage of women in other countries who will have your child for a reasonable fee, with a hard contract to protect all parties.

>>10571352
>>10571355
You are eradicating yourselves by not having children. You have one job and you are useless even at that. Useless!

>>10571357
yeah, you couldnt have kids with a tranny either. scrotes are so retarded

>>10571352
>i'm a lesbian
unfortunate, but i guess its to be expected.

>>10571354
The problem is too many men are interested in fucking or think they are entitled to acti as if they could fuck every woman and think they should all cater to their idea of what looks good or not. Most normal dudes these days aren't like that but a lot of guys (and other women) still have weird hangups over how others choose to dress, and what they do with their body like tattoos, piercings, surgery, being too buff, being too skinny, etc.

I find it all weird and maybe I'm just a poorly socialized person but "society" and the male gaze has or being "not like other girls uwu" never really influenced how I view myself or choose to look. Maybe cause of having to deal with other more serious shit as a child, I just figured life is shitty enough and I am not going to waste it caring what people think of me beyond whether I'm accurately representing myself as a good person in general/if it is something like following dress code for a job interview or an event to be respectful to the people interviewing or at that event.

>>10571371
Everyone judges based on appearances. It's how we evolved. Looks communicate whether something is poisonous to eat, a dangerous predator, or someone healthy to breed with. People who couldn't make judgements based on looks died out.
There is no "male gaze". Just some bored twats with first world problems.

>>10571371
i dont think you quite understand the male mindset. most men in a casual setting will be in a low key state of arousal, because testosterone. likewise, male sexuality is typically active, and while unfortunately i do think there is something to be said for the fact that men are not raised to be as mature as they once were, that goes for women too. generations have been steadily infantilised over the last hundred or so years, and sexuality has not been unaffected by that. most women are not the caliber of woman my grandmother was, but then nor am i the caliber of man my grandfather is, no matter how much i seek to correct that theres no getting around the fact that i will be behind him in life.

flip side, women tend to be extremely egocentric and overestimate how much attention men are actually paying to them. if a man has something to do or otherwise occupy his attention, you can be almost absolutely certain that object is the focus of it and not you. theres nothing more grating to a man than some lass acting like youre talking down to her when youre trying to be polite, or running her mouth to her friend about how youre leering at her when youre sat across the bus minding your own business, with what is quite obviously your boyfriend sat next to you. men may like to fuck, but not all the time, and contrary to popular belief not with everyone. guys just tend to pretend that they do because they like pretending to be high test alphas with their mates, who are also talking shit. in reality most men have a fairly limited appetite for sex and would rather spend the bulk of their time fishing or doing some other masculine hobby.

>>10571385
ive realised i kind of contradicted myself there, what i mean to say is that if theyre not doing anything and their appetites unsated they may have it on the mind, which may colour their actions and attitude, but it is an appetite and once sated its done with. likewise, you dont think about it when youre occupied like you dont think about hunger when youre busy. theres typically only a very narrow window of the day when men are actually viewing women in an explicitly sexual light if theyre not pratting about for most of the day, and you can rest assured if someone else in their life is satisfying that need you probably arent being considered.

>>10571347
dilate

>>10571343
Based

>>10571385
Idk if that's as often true some people seem to think. Once i was working an event, trying to run cat-5s and i happened to be paired with a dude, and like while trying to strategize how to gaff it he suddenly pointedly goes out of his way to mention he had a boyfriend/husband(i honestly don't remember which)

I had just asked how his event was going. Small talk to make working the back hallway easier and less awkward. In my department i was one of two women, and desu i was a little new and had a hard time integrating socially because i get nervous. Small talk was a way through that hurdle. In that case, he was the one assuming i was interested in him LOL.

>>10571394
you do get that too, typically from men who apparently understand women even less than i do having never really been too interested in them. suffice to say im not at all surprised to see it happened in the context of IT.

>>10571394
I've been there, it hurts a bit
t. person who loves talking to people for the sake of it

>>10569210
>At least your money will be going into the pockets of other women instead of some rich male CEO making millions off the beauty industry.

Please don't bully Mana-sama ;_;

>>10571343

>>10569679
What a weirdly combative positive message... thank (?) you, and sorry about your loss.

>>10571354
>unless a man is interested in fucking you
Yes, they have been interested in fucking us since we were children. Luckily that will stop when we are over 30.

>>10570996
If you were raised on earth you were socialised in the same way straight women were

>>10571636
>Luckily that will stop when we are over 30
God, I hope so

>>10571636
stop hanging around sex offenders. i know women have a weird thing for abusers and all that but its not good for you, knock it off.

>>10571647
its all fun and games til youre alone at 40 with nothing but cats in your life. i mean dont get me wrong id be glad not to have women running their mouths about how im eyeing them up too but 50 with an ever growing collection of dogs for my camper van is the alternative ill hold my nose and see about getting some kids.

t. guy whos mother wanted her kids gone ASAP and is now pretending to have mental breakdowns and throwing herself in the way of slowly moving police cars for attention.

>>10571583
based

>>10571672
lol

>>10571672
*if 50

>>10571672
>its all fun and games til youre alone at 40 with nothing but cats in your life

I have a boyfriend; I just wish other men would leave me the fuck alone or listen when I say I'm not interested/am not single so I can live my life in peace. I will be alone with my partner and our two dogs and any children we may or may not decide to have or adopt.

>>10571689
does "im married" not generally work?

to be fair manslags gonna manslag i suppose, its not an uncommon issue for gay men either. some people just live entirely in the realm of feelings and the predominant feeling happens to be "muh dick"
>lol why wont you let your husband fuck me
>fuck off AIDS case

>>10571672
You mean stop hanging around men? I try

>>10571694
i assure you love youre in no danger of being administered a dose of my dong consensual or not.

>>10571583
so basically you are suggesting that /cgl/ is a /pol/ for females?

>>10571692
1. I tell them I have a boyfriend, that is honest and basically the same as married in the sense that I am obviously not available.
2. I shouldn't have to be in a relationship or lie and say I am in one or specifically legally tied to a man for someone to leave me the fuck alone when I say I am not interested or just don't want to interact with them. They really aren't even entitled to an "excuse", I just provide the boyfriend thing because it is the truth and for my own safety since some men take being rejected as an excuse to attack women who don't want to fuck them.

>>10571703
well nobodies entitled to anything, but youre on the easy side not having to actively seek out a potential partner in a competitive environment. nature blesses young women with being the object of desire typically, and like gay men when they hit the wall you will on some level miss it when its gone. try to have a little understanding for the sort who manage to remain respectful and decent when seeing if you are interested, emphasis on remaining respectful and decent of course.

>some men take being rejected as an excuse to attack women who don't want to fuck them.
ive served cups of tea to the sorts of men who go knocking on their doors at 3am to break their ribs. theres always arseholes unfortunately, doesnt mean people are ok with them.

>>10571724
Just waiting for some man to come up to you and want you is beta as fuck. Real women actively pursue the men of their dreams. Being a passive object of desire is for losers.

>>10571729
bizarre larp but okay you do you

>>10571724
The ones who are respectful/decent "don't exist", in the sense that no one who approaches me on the street without knowing me has ever been respectful, either their approach or response was sleazy or rude or entitled from the get go.

The men who were respectful asking me out were men I already knew to some degree (the only 2 bfs I ever had, including my current one, were people I met through my student orgs in college and was acquaintances with before either of us ever went out or approached each other romantically) or made an attempt to talk to me in an appropriate situation like when at a coffee shop or a bar (in particular I used to hang out and read at a daytime bar where I live cause I worked there, not like a gross sticky nightclub bar), and those people I had totally fine interactions with. I'm not a prude or anything; I once even made a joke about orgies hanging out at this place with some friends/coworkers in a non sexual/hyperbolic context, and this guy who thought it was really funny suddenly started chatting me up and we went on a couple dates before it not working out and it was cool. So yeah "not all men" but way too many of them for me to not have my guard up when the circumstances demand it.

But surprise surprise, most men without the forethought to realize that a woman on the bus or walking down the street on the way somewhere is busy/doesn't want to be bothered also don't generally act considerate or respectful (ex: one of the first questions I tend to get because I have a baby face and am short is "how old are you", which lets me know they just want to fuck and are confirming if I'm legal or worth risking jail-gross).

I am totally fine with people shooting their shot at the right time and place, but the right time and place for anyone looking for a genuine relationship (which is what I want/currently have already) is usually not a downtown city street/bus stop/etc. when I am actively commuting to work or running and errand.

>>10571729
i mean good luck to them but thats not to every mans taste. enjoy your millionare femdom enthusiast bf.

>>10571734
I am very much enjoying him, thank you.

>>10571724
Also I really don't have it that much easier. I'm not even very pretty and have been rejected by guys I liked a ton of times. The only men who see my youth in particular as appealing have been actual predators or people wanting to be sugar daddies (which is still weird). I will absolutely not miss being the object of strangers' desire. That benefits me in literally no way and I do not like attention from strangers. People have always treated me like a baby and not respected me or wanted to allow me to take on any responsibility or agency because of my age or perceived age (I'm in my mid 20s but my young looking face and height make people treat me like a high schooler, once I even got mistaken for a 13 year old my first year of college).

I know you mean well but saying "be glad you have it so easy as a girl you will totally miss all this unwanted attention later" doesn't come off very well.

>>10571733
yeah thats not surprising, its not impossible i suppose to have someone not be like that, but id wager the bulk of tasteful interactions of that nature happen in contexts where both parties already know each other to some extent. theres unfortunately quite the gap between those who "get it" and those who dont. bad advice doesnt help people either, the times where you could actually meet people in public and chat with them that way are long gone but it doesnt stop shills taking money to tell poor clueless young lads to do it, and if it happens to land them a score or two in a bar once or twice, they might think itll work for them that time too. either that or theyre just dickheads looking to show off in front of their mates by trying it on with a total stranger knowing shes gonna tell him to fuck off.

>>10571736
ill bet

>>10571737
i should rephrase that better then. what i mean to say is that sort of attention is on some level flattering, and when life sees fit to give you dead silence in that regard while you wont miss it a lot of the time it can be easy to take a knock to your confidence from it. believe me when i say its not an unusual thing to feel as a result of it, or one even one thats necessarily exclusive to women. not talking about strangers in the street here, but strangers in other, less confrontational situations.

the difference is that for men, being active is everything. your ability to actively find a woman is every bit as much a measure of your manhood as your strength or your wit or your ability to chase down elk with a spear. for young men in particular, the pressure is on pretty heavy to establish yourself as able to seek out and woo a woman with the assets you have. that does mellow with age though, as men typically learn to chase less and build more. i simply do not think there is the sheer weight and necessity to play anything like an active role for women, nor probably the need to be as good at it. men are typically accomodating

>>10571737
>and have been rejected by guys I liked a ton of times
I was kind of rejected once, by a guy I had been fwb with but drifted apart from. last time I ever spoke to him, we'd ran into each other outside the cinema in the early evening and he asked if I wanted to hang out that night (this was the first time I'd spoken to him in over a year). we went to his place and smoked and he gave me some shrooms, then we went to a club and danced for like an hour or so, then back to his place. we were kissing and being flirty when suddenly he pulled away, muttered something about a succubus, and stated he was taking me home right then. it was bizarre. we'd already banged a couple times when we were fwb.

anyway that was literally the last time I ever heard from him unless I count the couple times I woke up with missed calls from him at like 2 in the morning. always wondered wtf that succubus comment meant tho

anyway looping back around, maybe I'm just oblivious but men who approach me and stuff seem pretty nice way more often than not. it's rare that I'm creeped out or upset by the way a man chose to approach/speak to me in a public setting. maybe I'm just so happy anytime anybody pays me any perceived-positive attention that I don't notice tho so who knows

>>10571724
>and like gay men when they hit the wall

gay men don't "hit the wall". you have your shallow guys who only want twinks, but theres lots of gay men who only want older guys or only want bears. it's not the same as straight men who insist women "hit the wall" the moment they turn 25 even if they still look extremely young

>>10571766
>straight men who insist women "hit the wall" the moment they turn 25
has anyone encountered anybody who thinks like this outside of reddit/4chan because I haven't and I'm convinced they're basically all teenagers who rarely go outside lol

>>10571761
>for men, being active is everything
>i simply do not think there is the sheer weight and necessity to play anything like an active role for women, nor probably the need to be as good at it.

Ayrt, and I think you're wrong here. My current relationship is amazing and it only happened because I actively pursued my partner/put effort into getting to know him, then confessed to him, we went on a date, he said he wanted to be friends, I was fine with that cause he was a great friend, and then later he changed his mind (even better) after we got to know each other even more over a couple more months and we ended up dating and now it's been over a year since we got together. If I hadn't said or done anything nothing would have happened. And a lot of really great guys don't want to be the friends who hit on or ask out their female friends so don't even consider it out of politeness so it would take the girl to initiate it for anything to ever happen.

Instead of teaching men to be horribly aggressive or women to play coy and sit and wait (or accuse them of being a dominatrix for choosing to pursue someone), we should just remind everyone they have agency in how their romantic interactions go and to be considerate of others but not afraid to be honest with how you feel. May not stop me from getting approached in the street but it would help a lot of people who struggle of both genders (or of neither if you subscribe to that sort of stuff) be more comfortable and confident when thinking about romance and relationships.

>>10571764
>muttered something about a succubus, and stated he was taking me home right then

God, I love listening to your random bullshit bdp-chan; you're like soup but better; for some reason you don't give me an uncontrollable urge to make fun of you the way soup does and I like that about you.

>>10571764
>I'm just so happy anytime anybody pays me any perceived-positive attention

We know.

>>10571767
Nope, you are absolutely correct, it's just teenage incels and online predators who know any woman with a fully formed frontal lobe is going to know better than to come near them or their PPs with a ten thousand foot pole.

>>10571766
i er, dont think you quite get the dynamics at play here fully. wanting older guys is a real bad sign as a gay guy, typically marks you out as a gold digger. guys who only want bears are generally either hyper-subs or masc4masc purists who keep photos of roman statues in their home gyms. shalloweness is a thing but its rarely "twinks only" and more "prettyboys only", which is distinct from twinks. "hitting the wall" refers to when you stop being able to look like a prettyboy without either looking like an overgrown child or an aids case, which is not a flattering look. for a lot of gay men the progression is viewed in more of say a greco-roman outlook. you get to be the prettyboy when youre young and have your fun, then as time changes your body and mind you make the decision to put away your toys and become more masculine in appearance. "twink death" is basically "the wall" for bottoms, you are not getting a 20something year old to shove his cock in you at 40. its not a hard and fast thing but it is still a thing.

>>10571780
Imagine thinking you have to be a femboy twink to be a bottom.

>>10571767
its literally just shitposters whos entire thing is to bully women for being women, or possibly being a woman while also being stupid. funnily enough 25 is also the often touted number for twink death, i managed to get to 27 looking like i was still 19 and i know people in their 30s who still look young af. the cringe lies not in people posting it but people who let a shitpost control their thoughts.

>>10571780

Gay men, just like women, are attracted to other men at all ages and body types and it all comes down to personal preference. I don't think YOU get the dynamics at play fully, senpai

>>10571764
I’m been called a succubus by men I’ve dated before, and also words like decadent, sybaritic and nympho in an apparently positive way. I’m not a nympho (haven’t had sex in a year, actually, since I’m not about dating in a pandemic) but when I’m attracted to someone I make it known. I guess that’s still rare among women enough that men will compare women like that to literal monsters and mythical creatures.

>>10571783
the dick likes what it likes and doesnt like what it doesnt. topping masc just doesnt do it for a lot of people, myself included sadly. thankfully my bf is fucking huge and i will never in my life be anything like as masc as he is purely on how large his shoulders and jaw are.

>>10571785
diversity of preference doesnt negate patterns, oniifam. the outcome might vary substantially but the rules vary much less.

>>10571790
>>10571785
or to put it another way, any man can look like a fem botom if you happen to look like the florida warewolf with a 12" wrist thick cock.

>>10571790
Sorry but your personal preference doesn't give you the right to act like all gay people subscribe to that retarded "one has to be masc/butch and one has to be femme" shit that straight people stereotype us as having.

>>10571770
lmao thanks nonny. that's a true fact tho, no BS.

prolly cause I'm a cool kid that does the sex and has the drugs. soup kinda seems like he'd be the character that got shoved into lockers

>>10571787
I wouldn't have found it quite so odd if he'd muttered something about a succubus and then banged me, but I get what you mean. the most common one I've got has been siren lmao, but where's the lie there

>>10571797
i never said all, if you scroll back up you can see that for yourself. there are differing preferences among gay guys for sure but its hardly an infinity of particulars devoid of categories.

Cancerous whores. Take you politics to either the politics board or back the crystal cafe you made. This shit is off topic.

>>10571807
suits me fine anon. just chilling while i wait hopefully for advice on presser feet.

>>10571808
Presser feet? I don't even know her.

>>10571780
what are you talking about lol, every gay guy i know thirsts for anderson cooper, and tom ford, a handsome and rich fashion designer and director, has an old husband, and i don't think he is a gold digger. your knowledge of gay men seems shallow and derived entirely from following a handful of masc studs on twitter. and you're assuming all young gays are twinks. they aren't. theres young studs and bears. a twink is specifically a young, slender (usually white) gay.

>>10571819
my definition of "gold digger" is a little loose given i have a fair bit of contempt for people who like men for their wealth.

>and derived entirely from following a handful of masc studs on twitter.
my knowledge is derived from being part of gay twitter and having the odd third over for fun with the bf. also my bfs extensive history of banging twinks and bears indiscriminately, and being more involved with the IRL gay scene than i am or ever have been.

>>10571828
you seem retarded.

>>10571828
Wait are you a gay man?? Who is clearly mature/well adjusted enough to be in an adult relationship?? How in god’s name did you wind up on this board on this website I literally cannot think of a less likely candidate. Like I’m serious I would love to know what brought you here

>>10571834
I think the obvious answer is >>10571830

>>10571830
extremely

>>10571834
porn and memes when i was 13. amusingly enough i met my bf on /b/.

>>10571847
correct, but you are also a retard so alls good in that regard.

>>10571785
>all ages
Is age not much of a factor in who women go for? This would explain a lot about my high school years, but most women seem to go for men a little older than themselves.

>>10570582
the difference is that men hold power over women while lesbians dont

Postmodernism and it's consequences have been a disaster for the human race

>>10571316
Literally every man I became friends with was like this.
>wow you're so cool, you're so chill, like it's just so cool that you aren't afraid of what others think and you have such cool hobbies, I love supporting women!
>anyway, what's your cup size lol?
I don't want to hate men but my god, they make it so hard.

>>10572016
that sounds like a you problem. i have quite a few male friends who haven't done anything like that to me.

>>10572019
yet

>>10572026
it's not going to happen, i am older and married. try again.

>>10572033
neither of those have stopped men before anon

>>10572016
is it bad when guys ask that? I've always just answered. Is it bad that I've asked my gfs that??? boundaries have always been difficult for me to understand and predict, I feel lucky I have any friends at all with how much I overshare. plus I'm so nosy, I always wonder if I've been intrusive or not man

>>10572034
the weak should fear the strong.

>>10572038
If what you're discussing is relevant to it (size conversions, sewing or you are buying them a bra( and they are involved) it's ok. If you are not close to them and it isn't relevant to anything you are currently talking about it's off putting and even rude. Most people don't just randomly give out clothing sizes let alone intimates. Shit, people get touchy about shoe sizes. With that in mind intent matters between friends. Some rando just asking about sizing is awkward at best.

>>10572000
>the difference is that men hold power over women while lesbians dont

I see you love to see only what you like to see

https://www.marieclaire.com/culture/a19495/women-raped-by-women/

https://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcthree/article/95769958-f129-416c-9610-c8f96504ce77

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28409768/

>>10572000
>while lesbians dont
heres a little bit of insight for you. the worst sort of person to have power is somebody who is not used to it, not secure in it, and with know understanding of the proper restraint that you need to have with it. hence why women account for most of the worlds non-sexual child abuse, and why lesbians have the highest rate of domestic violence of any sort of couple, and gay men the lowest. youre not just weak of body, youre weak of mind.

>>10572038
personally I think it's harmless

>>10572000
>lesbians dont
I can assure you they do.

literally gazing at all of you fags right now

>>10572038
i only dislike it because it often becomes instantly clear they don't know what a cup size is and are waiting to hear what they understand as the BIG BAZONGAS letters lmao

>>10572731
s-senpai

>>10573032
nice feeling to peer at your big bazongas

Guys plan every action of their life for the female critique. we want women to see what we do and who we are and think this guy is perfect. we live for each other it's kind of beautiful.