/cgl/ - Cosplay & EGL

>>10089014

>>10089016

>>10089018

>>10089019

>>10089020

>>10089022

>>10089024

>>10089025

>>10089027
I don't know why the western community as of late things otome and lolita are one and the same. the differences between otome dresses and lolita dresses are distinct.

Otome dresses
>prints are more likely to be photorealistic, if not just outright photographs
>the dress design is very simple, no extra lace bells and whistles
>a line skirts versus cupcake skirts
>a cutsew/sweater and cardigan is usually worn together as opposed to a blouse
>hats, small bows and barrettes minus full on headbows or bonnets

its easier to coordinate an otome dress in an lolita way than coordinate a lolita dress in an otome way. only a few lolita prints look good for otome, and its the ones with the most vintage influence, like fantastic dolly, honey cake and french cafe.

>>10089031

>>10089014
I think it would be helpful to distinguish between the styles you're representing with the images. I understand that a lot of these are umbrella terms and are influenced by feel rather than a set rulebook, but I think that posting dictionary.com-style definitions and then an image dump just adds to the confusion.

Also please explain how the Western lolita community is misusing the term "otome-kei". Thx

>>10089034

>>10089036
>please explain how the Western lolita community is misusing the term "otome-kei"
In Japan the term was just used a handful of times to just describe lolita fashion itself (Novala would call Lolita/Otome interchangeably).

There is no concrete differences between Soft Lolita and Otome Kei. The terms are both used to essentially describe the same thing, no one can really agree on what the differences are, but I have to include them in the header because otherwise this thread will become wank.

>>10089038

>>10089041

>>10089044

>>10089045

>>10089047

i'm so glad this thread was made! i guess i don't really know the specific definition or rules of otome-kei either but i usually think of f.in.t, jane marple or mulberry chronicals

>>10089050
I think there is definitely different interpretations to otome-kei! My style leans to the quirky, vintage inspired one, but yours is otome too!

>>10089053

>>10089055

>>10089059

>>10089062

>>10089053
i think so too! i think i just lean this way because my usual lolita style is classic

>>10089065

>>10089066
>>10089068
My lolita style is sweet, so it makes sense! I lean towards food motifs and cute easy to coordinate dresses, so both otome and sweet speaks to me.

>>10089069

>>10089069
i have a guilty pleasure for food prints, i love this one! i hope to eventually phase my wardrobe to all otome and lolita

>>10089070

>>10089068
holy shit, this is ita as fuck

>>10089093

>>10089097
ita doesn't exist in the otome world. the whole point is print mixing and color clashing.

>>10089108

>>10089112

This thread is making me want to buy more red + navy.

>>10089114

>>10089119

>>10089121

>>10089108
i wouldn't say that, its just not as strict as lolita as far as guidelines go so there isn't really an ita

>>10089126

>>10089156

>>10089157

>>10089161

>>10089164
>,

>>10089165

>>10089166

>>10089170

>>10089171

>>10089175

>>10089178

>>10089181

Personally I wish we would adopt otome to refer to lolita as a whole, as per Novala. The word lolita is never going to lose its sexual connotations (which maybe came with the rotten/edgy origins of lolita fashion in video and punk) and otome is much more in line with how most lolitas think about the fashion.

>>10089359
otome is just a general word in japanese language, novala never used it to refer to a style

>>10089157
I love the print on this dress however the cut will never suit me.

I love otome in general, but I don't suit light or bright colours. I need to find a way of encorporating otome with dark blues/ burgundy etc.

>>10089414
there are dark version! I dont have time rn but i'll post examples soon unless someone beats me to it

Do any of you gulls have any experience with JM sample sale dresses? I just bought one blindly since the price was low enough for me to take the risk. I'm hopeful it's as good as the "A" grade. I'm guessing the price was due to it being an old and unpopular print, not a quality thing.

I have recently started becoming obsessed with JM (mostly a VM/IWfag) since it's easy to sneak prints into my office wardrobe. There isn't too much floating around the western market, but the dresses that pop up are usually cheaper than what they go for on the second-hand market in Japan.

>>10089031
>why do westerners think otome is lolita
Because otome doesnt exist its all lolita in japan and shoving it in another name isnt going to change that

>>10089031
Is pic related otome kei?

>>10089470
Samples are often used in photoshoots and stuff, that's why they're so cheap. But sometimes they have defects or even a completely different colour.

>>10089031
Are you implying that honey cake coord is otome?

>>10089486
Yes, I think it fits. Some otome coordinates are lolita, but not all lolita coordinates can be otome

>>10089476
>Because otome doesnt exist its all lolita in japan and shoving it in another name isnt going to change that
So you are saying this is lolita?
https://www.japantimes.co.jp/life/2002/05/24/language/japanese-women-staying-in-touch-with-their-inner-virgin/#.XEzW0DBCeUk
But yeah, totally didn't exist.

>>10089561
I don’t know why cgl insists it’s the same as lolita. ETC and jane Marple dont consider themselves lolita

>>10089561
Longer article from this year about modern otome culture:
https://www.sankei.com/life/news/181122/lif1811220001-n1.html

>>10089183

>>10089783

>>10089784

>>10089785

>>10089788

>>10089789

>>10089790

>>10089789
Can /i get an ID on this dress?

>>10089562
ETC does promote themselves as a lolita brand, but not as "only lolita" like AP and btssb.

>>10089563
That article is not about the clothing style you are posting. Some of the girls you posted called their coord lolita too, so why argue with some anonymous randoms that call it (casual/soft) lolita? If you want to use otomekei as a tag to get attention or to find similar coords, nobody cares. It's just annoying when you try to pretend ETC, LG and JM are totally separate from lolita.

>>10089563
That article is not about the clothing style people are posting here. It just supports the argument that otome is another word for young and feminine/girlhood, not a specific clothing style (which is actually just called jane marple style in Japan). By that logic I could call anything I wear otome kei.

A bunch of the girls posted here call their own coord lolita too, so why argue with some anonymous randoms that call it (casual/soft) lolita? If you want to use otomekei as a tag to get attention or to find similar coords, nobody cares. It's just annoying when you try to pretend ETC, LG and JM are totally separate from lolita.
The "JM don't want to be called lolita, so JM coords are never lolita" argument is kind of dumb too because none of us want to be called lolita, it's just how Japanese society started calling it and they didn't make a special exception for jane marple at the time.

>>10089931
Emily Temple Cute red riding hood

The otome vs lolita argument... Otome doesn't look more different from sweet lolita, than gothic lolita does from sweet lolita. The people wearing it are generally the same. The inspiration and history of the brands is generally the same.

>>10089973
I wish we could just have these threads without people fighting over soft lolita and otome. We all know what brands we're talking about when we say soft lolita and otome. Just because Westerners use "otome" to define it better and it's used differently in Japan doesn't mean it's not a valid fashion style with a defined look. Fighting over it always ruins threads with these really interesting brands in them that lolitas tend to overlook. I think lolitas overlook them specifically because all this stupid mincing over nothing.

>>10089971
Thanks so much! I'm >>10089414 so I think the black colour way might suit me.

>>10089979
The only people I know who wear JM, ETC or LG are lolitas though. If you want to make more lolitas interested in it it makes more sense to call it casual or soft lolita. But I must say I like the word otome because it has less negative connotations. Otome has also been used for lolita in the past.

>>10089973
>Otome doesn't look more different from sweet lolita, than gothic lolita does from sweet lolita
Ita. It doesn't make sense for me to treat it as two different subcultures, I use my JM items in lolita coords sometimes and I use my VM items in casual coords sometimes. A lot of sweet lolitas wear milk or ETC on their non-lolita days. You could say they suddenly stopped being a lolita and turned into an otome girl, or you could say they're wearing something more casual of their main style.

>>10089979
What ruins these threads is made up rules like >>10089031 posted. Idk if you were around when otome kei threads were popular here but they kept adding more rules and they were always based on how it's different from lolita. If they'd kept going they would have written a handbook with minimum amount of clashing colours you have to wear. In the future, it's better to make a "jane marple appreciation thread" or a "girly style" thread without mention of otome.

>>10089996
I didn’t post those as rules, but those are just frequent patterns I’ve noticed when looking at the dresses LG/ETC/JM release versus what your standard lolita brands release. How ETC is worn and coorded is just different from how a lot of lolita dresses are worn and coorded, people have even said in CoF threads they don’t like seeing ETC dresses posted since they rarely have enough room to hold a petticoat and maintain the proper lolita skirt shape, which is true. I never said “these are the otome rules”, I was specifically talking about the dresses.

I request some “girly fashion” brands

>>10090086

>>10090087

>>10089108
Exactly. I'm into both lolita and otome and the amount of people who try to apply color matching from lolita annoys me. Intentional mixing and clashing is different than someone missing the mark because of no skill. It lends to a whimsical and playful nature.
That girl's coord reminds me of ETC ads and Spoon that sometimes feature intentional mixing and clashing. I don't have any saved or I would post them.

I will share a small picture dump, because idgaf about the stupid otome verbiage debate that always happens in these threads.

>>10090095
This dress is still on my wishlist...

>>10090099
MILK

>>10090099

>>10090101
This JM print reminds me of cross-stitch

>>10090105

>>10090107
I have more of the JM coords but don't want to flood the thread with them

>>10090107
I have more of the JM coords but I don't want to flood the thread with them

>>10089996
There was a weird anon that kept making "girly style" threads and emphasizing them, but the issue is that otome/soft lolita is kind of a way of saying "the sister brands of lolita that never became fully lolita", such as Milk, ETC, Leur Getter, and Jane Marple. Those girly style threads had taobao garbage in them and even some Liz Lisa. You get too ill defined, no one knows what you're talking about anymore.

>>10090112
I think this girly style can be done with pants too

>>10090116

>>10090114
CGL is a slow moving board, the more broad the thread topic is, the higher the chances are of participation

>>10090118

>>10090123

>>10090125

>>10090126

>>10090114
>even some Liz Lisa

Liz Lisa coming to steal yo thread.

>>10090083
That's not true, most ETC dresses look better with a petticoat

>>10090095
Clashing colours always looks bad. That's why it's called clashing, not complementing

>>10090114
>Those girly style threads had taobao
there were some casual cute threads with a lot of korean and chinese stuff but there've also been good girly style and soft lolita threads without otome wank

>>10090156

>>10090159

>>10090164

>>10090165

>>10090148
you sound boring

>>10090145
This isn’t universally true at all

>>10089965
>a tag to get attention or to find similar coords
this would've been nice but the coords in the otomekei thread are generally the same as in the softlolita tag, with softlolita slightly more popular with chinese girls and otomekei slightly more popular with western girls.

>>10089965
>a tag to get attention or to find similar coords
this would've been nice but the coords in the otomekei tag are generally the same as in the softlolita tag, with softlolita slightly more popular with chinese girls and otomekei slightly more popular with western girls.

>>10089965
>so why argue with some anonymous randoms that call it (casual/soft) lolita
Nobody did but saying otome and lolita fashion are the same thing is plain wrong, let alone the claim that otome culture was made up by the west.

>>10089965
>It's just annoying when you try to pretend ETC, LG and JM are totally separate from lolita.
So you are saying things like the pic in >>10089561 are lolita?

Y'all think I could get my gf into Lolita fashion?

>>10090179
Nayrt but are you saying things like >>10089561 were posted in otome kei threads on cgl?

>>10090183
You sound either new or never looked up the jp otome wikipedia page before.

>>10090180
You could get your gf into anything as long as you securely hold her down first

>>10090185
this isn't otome kei, it's ugly af

>>10090192

>>10090193

>>10090194

>>10090196

>>10090195
this is just normie

>>10090199

>>10090200

>>10090193
>this isn't otome kei, it's ugly af
Says the one posting regular lolita as otome while calling actual otome magazine scans "not otome".

>>10090201

>>10090205

>>10090204

>>10090193
>>10090194
>>10090199
>>10090200
>>10090201
What's up with all the normie lolita shit

>>10090207

>>10090208

>>10090210

>>10090211

>>10090214

>>10090209
Look up angiiichan's guide on otome kei on blogspot

>>10090211
What you're posting is nothing like what we wear. Otome was used in the 80s for girly styles that were pretty much normie, these days it's a seperate style in the west with JM, ETC and Milk as the main brands. You can clearly see a difference between regular casual lolita, normie and otome kei.

>>10090212

>>10090219

>>10090220

>>10090216

>>10090223

>>10090219
>using a weebie guide as reference
no thanks
>little space

>>10090226

>>10090224

>>10090204
Maybe you should have participated in otome kei threads back when they were still a thing, because you seem to be the only person on cgl who speaks Japanese and by now the entire Western lolita community thinks any coord with a main-piece from Jane Marple or Emily Temple Cute and a few different colours is otome kei. Seriously, just take a look at otome kei generals in the archive or the otome kei tag on insta.

>>10090233

>>10090237
i've been around in the otome threads ever since they started like a decade ago
>taking anything on IG serious
might as well say candygore cosplays are fairy kei if it was for IG

>>10090238
The otome fashion exhibit last november was nice.

>>10090242
Had all the original fashion magazines for reading, too.

>>10090243
Including the evolution into lolita.

>>10090240
Were you one of the people who kept calling coords too lolita?

>>10090244

>>10090244
That implies otome became lolita and doesn't exist anymore

>>10090254
That's like saying gyaru doesn't exist anymore because it evolved into ganguro.

>>10090264

>>10090268

>>10090277

>>10090254
Why do monkeys still exist if humans evolved from monkeys?

>>10090240
I don't believe you lol. Have you seen otome generals? They did not look like what you're posting. If otome kei generals were like what you're posting, there wouldn't be a casual/soft lolita vs otome kei discussion because it looks totally different. Or maybe it's because you're only posting ancient coords, and otome kei in 2019 actually does look like casual lolita.

I used to look up to Herajika a lot and I think she had an awesome style, and she wore all kinds of lolita and otome.

>>10090403
and heres one to show the differences between the three styles

>>10090403
>>10090416
I thought that was otome too but >>10090185 confused me

More people should join Daily Otome Coords on fb. Needs more love

>>10090484
The only thing that looks good about this outfit is the print

>>10090484

>>10090486

>>10090488

>>10090489

>>10090491

>>10090358
> there wouldn't be a casual/soft lolita vs otome kei discussion because it looks totally different
That discussion only started because OP decided to put different styles into a single thread. This is just the Dolly Kei drama all over again where people claimed Dolly Kei and Casual Lolita are the same thing (hint: they aren't either).

>>10090492

>>10090494
Since when was there any debate on dolly-kei and casual olita being the same? dolly-kei went hand in hand with natural kei/mori girl/cult party kei/grimore style. it was never in the same ballpark in lolita and only a troll or an absolute newbie would confuse the two.

>>10090495

>>10090498

>>10090501

>>10090494
So you didn't go to otome kei generals

>>10090505

>>10090506
the otome generals existed fine before cgl tried to say that "otome-kei" referred to a specific kind of "anime club princess" style and then made threads here on how to achieve that style, when it was really just a big joke at a certain type of female anime and idol fan, not a serious substyle. thus turned into huge arguments over otome not REALLY being a style in japan until the discussion died all together.

cgl simultaneously cares way too much about the ~true japanese definitions of the fashions~ while also ignoring them and being 100% western in other ways. just pick one guys. either we do as the japanese do or we accept our interpretation of japanese fashions, even lolita fashion, will be different and thats ok.

>>10090506
Which ones? The last one was in like, april and back then there was no "soft lolita" or anything like "otome=casual lolita" for discussion because it wasn't a thing in the OP.

>>10090520
There have been lots of otome kei generals with casual lolita wank

>>10090497
There wasn't

>>10090523
cgl is just making stuff up i guess but what else is new

>>10090522
yeah otome vs casual lolita has existed since the days of livejournal, but the majority opinion was always that otome was a distant relative of lolita, it had a separate tag on daily lolita, but it still had its own community as well.

>>10090526

>>10090523
>>10090497
You probably missed out everytime people suggested to rename lolita into dolly kei because "it's the same anyways".

>>10090529
I assume most of the posters weren't around until recently.

>>10090529
that isn't the same as what the comment implied, which is that people confused dolly-kei and casual lolita to be the same style, not that the name should change. even your screenshot doesn't say the styles are the same, it just says that dolly-kei will go out of fashion (which it did)

>>10090536
>confused dolly-kei and casual lolita
It's not too far from it as the people in the thread even used it interchangeable with otome too.

>part of the problem is there's no actual history behind it. what you call 'otome-kei' is what the girls of 80s/90s would call 'lolita'. it's more of a fledgling term than an actual history. Those lolitas of 80s/90s would have grown up by now, so ETC/JM caters to that and developed to a less sweet yet still feminine style. Even now, it's contentiously debated on whether ETC/MILK/JM is considered lolita or not (go check futuba board of 2chan, and look at the JM threads. you'll need a proxy server because only a japanese IP can access it)
(source: https://egl.livejournal.com/12194587.html))

>- lolita style and otome style are frequently interchanged in the West, particularly in egl they don't seem to differentiate at all but are they interchangable? If you consider lolita a mix of Visual-Kei and Natural-kei then lolita and otome are definitely NOT because otome is more influenced by the shibuya-kei than visual-kei. I find it interesting because otome style tends to release "lolita-able" items more than lolita brands releasing "otome-able" items. For instance, I'll be hard-pressed to find a JM style skirt in BTSSB but finding a lolita style skirt in JM is not too difficult.
(source: https://lolita-indies.livejournal.com/3166.html))

>to make an analogy, i think you could compare IW putting out JM-esque prints to AP using more and more decora elements or Btssb drifting towards a hime-gal looking style. all fashion styles constantly evolve & influence each other, and there doesn't have to be one which was there first, or a clear 'genealogy' to them.
(source: https://lolita-indies.livejournal.com/3166.html))

>>10090543

>>10090547
>there's no actual history behind it
there is
http://pluto.cocolog-nifty.com/main/2013/03/olive8090-5969.html

>>10090549
these screenshots of idiots do nothing to prove your original comment correct. we aren't talking about names, and those aren't even arguments. you're clogging up the thread.

>>10090550
my sources are from 2008. how are they supposed to read a post from 2013?

>>10090554
And my source is article written by two actual otome girls from the 70s you probably didn't bother even looking at the link.

>>10090555
your link has nothing to do with my link. i was posting some comments from what the western community thought of otome in 2008. responding to one of my quotes doesn't do anything. i also don't read japanese so theres not much i can do with your source. im not disagreeing with it.

>>10090558
It does because your link said there is no history behind otome while there is and it's completely unrelated to lolita.

>>10090517
That was otohime. I think you're confused!

>>10090560
people were saying otahime was otome.

>>10090560
Not the same anon but she's right
https://yuki.la/cgl/9233559

>>10090568
>>10090569
Disregard that, I suck cocks!
>also cgl's brief obsession with that style was so embarrassing

>>10090573
i think it all came from exactly one random comment on a lolita general that then from its owned generals for a few weeks until cgl came to its senses. The archive link is here >>/cgl/thread/S9227867#p9232503

cgl will believe anyone who says they've lived in japan. i could say "i lived in japan and all lolitas actually wear mormon temple underwear instead of bloomers" and everyone would believe me.

>>10090575
re-reading this i can't believe cgl took a japanese twitter meme that basically said "lol look at how chubby mentally ill slutty female anime fans dress" and tried to make it into a real style with rules that should be emulated.

>that image that lists being 155cm and 52kg as a bad thing....yikes

From an objective point of view, lolita and otome are very similar. I think the reason they are considered different fashion styles is that otome brands want it that way. They request not to be featured in KERA or the GLB, and they consider themselves to be more elite/elegant than lolita. Celebrities often wear otome brands on TV but not lolita. Lolita says fuck you to social norms, otome is considered appropriate "good girl" date wear.

this thread is going to max out soon for image replies, so what should we call a new thread? though i really enjoyed the debate and discussion in this thread

>>10090595
Emily Temple Cute has been featured in GLB a few times and Leur Getter attended small lolita events in the beginning

>>10090627
Depends on what you want to see. I would be interested in an otome kei thread only if people post actual otome like >>10090233, and not like >>10090547

>>10090627
If you make a new thread so soon, people will just take the argument there. You have to wait for them to forget about it a bit.

>>10090627
Just call it Otome-kei general since the goal is to revise the Otome-kei threads of cgl past.

I had been longing for an Otome thread so much that I've actually been going to back through the archives to find threads from 2015-2016.

But really I just want a thread where we can talk/gush about JM and LG and ETC I don't really care what the title is.

>>10090627
im a newb to this site, whats the max amount of image replies? i wanted to add some darker otome inspo but i can do that on new thread

Can someone please explain why >>10089561 >>10089563 >>10090185 looks totally different from what the cgl considers otome kei?

>>10090810

>>10090810
>Jeans and t-shirt
>Leggings

>>10089563
Debatable - really need to see the whole outfit.

>>10090185
These are just normie clothes. There's nothing dainty or particularly girly other than the skirt. The blouse the gilr is wearing under her cardigan looks like any other work button-down shirt out there.

>>10090800
150. This is a slow board though so feel free to dump what you have this thread will still be liv for a while.

>>10090813
So even people who wear otome kei can't agree on what it is? And you expect lolitas to understand what it is?

>>10090810
I think >>10089561 and >>10090185 is otome kei in Japan, and >>10090192 is otome kei in the US

>>10090813
thank! here's some darker/"classic" otome

>>10090833

>>10090834

>>10090836

>>10090838

>>10090838
Where is that skirt from? It's lovely

question: is "soft lolita" a term really used in japan or did misako just name drop it?

>>10090706
that doesn't really matter. the GLB didn't only feature lolita brands of course, and ETC only being featured a handful of times in the decades long run isn't good evidence for it being a hardline lolita brand. either GLB didn't want to include them or ETC didn't want to be included.

>>10090867
the only caption on the post was axes femme

>>10090950
Nobody here is arguing it's a hardline lolita brand, but it's a fact that lolitas have worn Emily Temple cute since the beginning. When you see a sweet lolita wearing ETC, it's likely it's just a casual day for her and she's not going for otome kei. Yet those kind of casual lolita coords are often posted in otome kei threads.

>>10091061
well does otome-kei exist in japan, yes or no? if it doesn't exist in japan, then it doesn't matter what she was going for because westerners define ETC style as "otome kei" regardless of intent. the western vs eastern interpretation of japanese fashion isn't new to otome. fairy kei is entirely a western invention that loosely came from style worn by the shopgirls of spank!, the western version of fairy kei with printed leggings, tutus, princess wands and decora accessories never existed in japan.

when we have causal lolita threads on here, ETC doesn't get posted much, because what we define as "casual lolita" is pretty strictly skirts and cutsews, or JSKs and boleros of already existing lolita dreses. when we want casual lolita inspiration we want ideas on how to dress down something like sugary carnival or milky planet, posting photos of ETC dresses doesn't fit that bill because its not a brand popular in the western community.

either way its clear that there is some crossover with ETC/Leur Getter/MILK/Jane Marple in the Lolita world, its still sometime separate and deserves its own thread, and maybe even substle.

cgl had no issues trending uchuu-kei for months, and almost made a seperate style made offer some mean memes from japanese twitter. why is otome kei such a hot button issue?

>>10090185
>>10090185
These are “Olive Girls” or “Olive Kei”. Girls would wear vintage clothing with big silhouettes, long pleated skirts, and girly blouses.
Idk why people keep on implying it’s an example of otome when the article is literally “Olive Fashion” a style that originated in the 80s.

What we call Otome does exist in Japan but it isn’t referred to specifically as Otome. Isn’t that easy enough to understand?

So one group of people believes otome kei exists but it's only called otome kei in the west (jane marple girl/casual lolita in Japan?), one group of people thinks Olive girl=otome kei and pic related is casual lolita, and another group thinks otome kei doesn't exist and it should all be called casual/soft lolita?

>>10089038
>Makes blanket statement that the entire Western community doesn't know what otome kei is
>I don't want wank gaiz!!!!!

>>10089038
Wouldn't Novala's use of the term "otome" literally be just referring to "maidens", rather than a fashion style of any kind?

>>10090950
She just made it up, see >>10089486, to make lolita more accessible to beginners and working girls. Imo it's a natural evolution from casual lolita though. I mean the style she describes already exists and is worn by some lolitas, she just put a new name on it. If you look at the casual lolita thread, a lot of the coords look outdated and are more popular with old-school lolitas than what the average sweet or classic lolita wears on casual days.

>>10091570
By that reasoning, Olive magazine using otome was also just referring to maidens and not a specific fashion style.

>>10091576
Novala popularised the term though, and he was not targeting Olive girls

>>10091576
And who's to say they weren't? Maybe that's why "otome" as a defined style doesn't exist, because it's a concept that can be interpreted into different "maidenly" or "girly" aesthetics and ideas.

>>10090547
>? If you consider lolita a mix of Visual-Kei and Natural-kei then lolita and otome are definitely NOT because otome is more influenced by the shibuya-kei
Lolita is also influenced by shibuya kei, see http://www.rainedragon.com/mirror-post-history-of-gosuloli-timeline-in-rococo-vol-1/

Do any of you have a personal preference for otome kei or soft lolita?

I like the word otome better because lolita is still associated with that book, but I prefer Misako's description of soft lolita over the descriptions of otome kei. It gives you more freedom. I'm also hesitant to use otome kei because I don't know Japanese and don't want another kodona mistake.

>>10091567
anons may find this article interesting to get some sense for what 'otome' is to lolita etc. I actually love the entire blog as I feel it has some of the best researched info on lolita fashion out there.

http://www.fyeahlolita.com/2010/02/old-school-lolita-in-90s-80s-and-70s.html

>>10091585
What she refers to as otome is actually olive girls

>>10091587
Because Olive coined otome.

>>10091589
Except they didn't

>>10091591
Expect they did
>>10087363

>>10091582
I like otome kei better because soft lolita sounds like a porn search phrase

>>10091589
https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/乙女
https://wikivisually.com/wiki/Novala_Takemoto
>Novala's essays also increased the popularity of the Japanese term otome

Then there's otome from Olive magazine here https://artsandculture.google.com/exhibit/ogKCPmGdPtB7Iw
Which looks totally different from the fashion we're discussing in this thread.

It's just a word that means young girl, not specific to any fashion, just like how Japanese use girly style now. It could be anything, from normie to causal lolita.

>>10091593
>>10091582
Soft Lolita sounds the same as Soft Sister which is just China's nymphet style so I can see where you are coming from.

>>10091592
They didn't dress like what Westerners want otome kei to be

>>10091595
Half the stuff people call "soft lolita" is way too slutty and short looking tho, that wouldn't be otome in any way, see all the tiny salopettes being posted and most things labeled "girly" are just larme to begin with.

>>10091598
And if westerners wanted lolita to be shitty cosplays, would lolita suddenly be that? No.

>>10091076
>the western version of fairy kei with printed leggings, tutus, princess wands and decora accessories never existed in japan.
thats just wrong. did you forget 6%dokidoki exists?

>>10091599
Larme is girly, what's your point? I didn't mention soft lolita. Soft lolita is literally anything a lolita wears on causal days if you go by Misako's definition.

>>10091601
The brand doesn't associate with Fairy Kei, it's style is "Sensational Kawaii" Decora.

>>10091600
Then your argument is with >>10091469, not with me

Olive is an old magazine, the world Otome isn’t ONLY used for the fashion? It’s literally just the word “Maiden” and it refers to girly girls.
Are Otome games also lolita now?
Just google 乙女系 and 乙女ファッション.
The style exists, sure, but it isn’t called that in Japan, there’s no argument about it and I don’t know why people can’t understand that.

>>10091603
Which proves the point that girly=/=otome because it's the opposite of being sexual.
https://tokyogirlsupdate.com/kawaii-2-0-theory-vol-6-20160694637.html

>>10091606
And lolita is also used as word for little girls, your point?

>>10091606
Nobody is staying otome=lolita lol, read the thread

>>10091609
I meant Jfashion but I was obviously being sarcastic.
>>10091608
Context is important. Why’re you so upset that Otome isn’t a thing in Japan? It’s only referred to as Otome in the west and that’s fine.

>>10091611
I'm not? I'm tired of people slapping otome on whatever is larme or shorter casual lolita, it's not maiden-like.

Also, as said before, just because it it isn't a thing anymore doesn't mean it didn't exist.

>>10091607
Since when is Larme inherently sexual? There are girly styles in Larme that might have been called otome had they been in Olive instead of Larme, just completely different trends. Larme also focuses a lot of girlhood.

>>10091611
Because someone is arguing that otome kei is a specific style in Japan made by Olive, even though it looks totally different from what otome kei is in the West

>>10091604
just because the brand doesn't call itself fairy kei doesn't mean japanese girls don't consider it decora/fairy kei, as well as like....everyone else

>>10091616
But Larme isn't anything like the orthodox style that was otome as you can read in
http://pluto.cocolog-nifty.com/main/2013/03/olive8090-5969.html

>>10091607
Girly style is not about looking sexual, it's dressing young and girly..baka

>>10091619
Does that mean I can call everything lolita and the brands magically will be? Nice.

>>10091621
Which isn't the same as otome, that's the whole point.

>>10091622
that's false equivalency. You obviously don't know anything about fairy kei in japan, so uh... nice comeback?

>>10091620
Of course Larme doesn't look like girly 80s fashion. I'm saying otome was just a word that went out of fashion and now Japanese people tend to use girly, maybe in a few years they'll use otome again, who knows? Otome doesn't necessarily refer to Olive girls.

>>10091625
>implying fairy kei is even a thing in jp
>implying anyone ever called themself that

Why don't people make an olive kei thread instead of otome kei to avoid confusion?

>>10091615
I’m not calling larme stuff Otome, I agree that those people are wrong too lol. All I’m saying is that if you asked a Japanese person for some Otome brand recommendations they’d just point you in the direction of generic girly brands. In Japan the style is probably just considered casual lolita or general girly style, whereas over here we took the keyword Otome which was probably used in some articles to describe the style and rolled with it.

>>10091615
Nobody is doing that

>>10091634
>nobody
>top half of the thread is just shitty casual lolita

>>10091635
Anon did you read the thread name? It’s “Otome, Soft Lolita, and Girly Fashion”
It’s a combined thread since this is a slow board.

>>10091628
フェアリー系 look that one up for me

>>10091628
pretty much, 90% of the jp search results are westerners with japanese hashtags

>>10091639
See
>>10091640

>>10091635
Are you one of the girls who thinks Olive girls is otome or ETC/JM/Milk is otome? Because Milk is short af

>>10091640
https://twitter.com/fashiontubuyaki/status/318965540423081984

>>10091645
Even the jp in the comments agree with the westerner OP being wrong.

>>10091643
I'm talking about the 80s stuff here and brands like Milk adjust to fads anyways, might've done otome dresses in the past but the past is the past for a reason, else we would have to consider Milk & Pretty lolita because it was AP's old name.

>>10091649
Okay well, most people wearing otome kei are white girls just wearing a Milk, LG, ETC or JM dress, I don't think they're inspired by otome/olive from the 80s. That's why when you make an otome kei thread you see those coords posted.

>>10091647
pretty sure misha Janette knows more about jfash than you do, considering she went to bunka and has been a fashion personality in japan for like ten years.... also the one comment is surprised fairy kei is called decora in the west often, and the other says the two styles are different to westerners.
I'm just certain at this point you've never been to japan and are regurgitating false information other westerners have told you. Fairy kei is a term used in japan to describe many styles and wasn't made up by westerners. Milklim has openly described their style as fairy kei and nile perch also has.
But i'm not surprised that people on /cgl/ spread false information, i'm certain most westerners who consider jfashion a hobby genuinely don't know anything about it in japan.

>>10091651
I wouldn't have an issue with that thread if it wasn't for multiple styles being squished into one, there already is a casual lolita thread.

>>10091652
>pretty sure misha Janette knows more about jfash than you do
That's sure is why she is hated by the actual jp community for things like dressing like a stripper at an lolita event, forgot.

>>10091653
I'm pretty sure people would complain that it's "not lolita" if certain otome coordinates got posted in the casual lolita thread. such as this one >>10090507

>>10091652
The first comment actually says that Fairy and Decora are different and goes on to explain the difference.
Misha Janette got into trouble before because she got mad on her blog when she was told not to use a funeral kimono as a fashion item.

>>10091656
keep regurgitating that information you've been told on lolcow

>>10091659
I said that in my comment. " the other says the two styles are different to westerners. "
and the second thing has nothing to do with what we are talking about so thanks for the unrelated information.
I'd really like some proof that girls in japan have never called their style fairy kei and no brand has ever used the term, because obviously they have.

>>10091660
Doesn't need lolcow to see her tweets complaining about it as well as the event photos.

>>10091652
>But i'm not surprised that people on /cgl/ spread false information, i'm certain most westerners who consider jfashion a hobby genuinely don't know anything about it in japan.
That's because nobody translates good resources anymore these days, people end up relying on guides like >>10090219

>>10091653
I think it's better to make an olive girl thread. This thread is way too random.

>>10091663
It's even in the first comment that Doki is the prime example for Decora, nothing FK.

>>10091665
that's true as all heck. A lot of people need to stop taking blogs/cgl/word of mouth as fact.

>>10091668
japanese girls have used 6%dokidoki in their fairy kei coordinates before, especially the tutu skirt.

>>10091669
Otome isn’t the name of the style in Japan so there’s nothing to translate. The most recent vaguely-related thing is already translted upthread, Misako’s Soft Lolita guide.

>>10091673
never argued with that. Otome doesn't really exist as a style in japan. it exists in the western world, though. It's okay to use the term here since (most) of us know what makes otome.

>>10091672
And that makes it a Fairy Kei brand now how? Is Claire's a lolita brand when plenty of people use it for accessories?

>>10091673
If otome isn't the name in Japan why would you use that as the name here? Isn't that what mainly causes confusion? And Olive girls sounds way cuter

>>10091674
Haha I misquoted, I was meaning to quote the person complaining about nobody translating sources. I actually agree with you!

>>10091676
The confusion is because girly, soft lolita and "otome" being thrown together in one thread as if it's all the same.

>>10091676
>Olive girls sounds way cuter
Not only that but it also isn't associated with otome games which is more widely used in the west than otome kei

>>10091676
Because Olive Girl is a totally different style that refers to the Magazine. It’s a really cute style though, maybe I should dump some in a future thread.
Google オリブ少女 for pictures.

>>10091678
No, the argument is between people who consider otome kei "a thing" and people who say otome kei doesn't exist and is just soft/casual lolita or olive

>>10091681
That argument is a misunderstanding, otome was "a thing" up to the early 00s but doesn't exist (anymore/now).

>>10091675
perhaps i should clarify: I never meant 6% dokidoki was a fairy kei brand, but I was replying to this comment.
"the western version of fairy kei with printed leggings, tutus, princess wands and decora accessories never existed in japan."
I disagree with this because many japanese girls use tutus from 6% dokidoki in fairy kei coordinates.

>>10091684
I think that person was refering to what has been the english tags for years, meaning the overly childish "kawaii" stuff you get from print-on-demand shops like Kawaiigoods and those hosted on RedBubble.

Would anybody interested in a retro/fancy thread? With Olive girls and 80s styles. I’m up to dump.

>>10091686
I would be interested but please name the thread olive girls to avoid more discussion

>>10091685
I can agree that the western fairy kei style and the japanese fairy kei style are very different. Western fairy kei bastardised japanese fkei a lot. Fairy kei is a term used in japan though, and i'm not sure the point of pretending it's not.

>>10091688
Definitely lol, it’ll be an 80/90s Olive/Retro Jfashion thread.

>>10091573
But if you look at Misako’s style out of lolita, it matches with what she describes as soft lolita

>>10091599
There’s nothing in this thread that is even remotely larme

>>10091601
Fairy kei still isn’t real, dude. Not in Japan. DOKIDOKI was an accessories shop favorited by lolitas, decoras, almost all Japanese fashion. Fairy Kei started gaining western popularity in 2009 on the 80s Cuties community, and the term pop-kei and spank-kei was used interchangeably with fairy-kei. The style was mostly based around how spark! shopgirls dressed. this morphed along with lolita trends at the time to include huge wigs, a million hair clips, and more OTT motifs. If anything it was the westerners who turned DOKIDOKI into a fairy kei brand.

>>10091698
refer to
>>10091684

>>10091652
Misha Janette is a random white nobody with no experience in Japanese fashion communities (she’s never work lolita/gyaru) and has no idea what she’s talking about. She’s just a token westerner. Hardly an expert.

>>10091702
still knows more than you.

>>10091684
Dokidoki made tutus and skirts late in the game mostly when they started shipping to the US. Of course Japanese girls wore Dokidoki tutus. Japanese girls weren’t wearing dokidoki tutus, split wigs, fairy wings, and dramatic makeup while calling it fairy kei.

>>10091704
Are you her? Nobody here likes Misha Janette. Go make a fairy kei thread and prove its worn in japan then. I guarantee most of your images will either be spank!, decora, or yumekawaii