/biz/ - Business & Finance

[Anonymous No.41109]

How would the economics of restaurants change if servers were paid minimum wage instead of working for tips? (of course restaurants could pay them more if they'd like.)

Sure, the price of food would go up but how would this affect the number of customers, job loss, ect ect

[Anonymous No.41129]

>>41109
that's the case in some states like california already

http://www.dol.gov/whd/state/tipped.htm
AK, CA, MN, MT, NV, OR, WA
all those states disallow use of a tip credit

[Anonymous No.41156]

>>41109
>(of course restaurants could pay them more if they'd like.)
why the hell you need to tell someone that.

Its like you are saying minimum wage is some cultural marxism to make guys pay just the minimum and feel good about themselfs

[Anonymous No.41164]

>>41109
Servers already earn minimum wage. If they don't make minimum wage (counting tips) then their employers must reimburse them the difference.

That said, I don't tip myself. Unless you're a repeat customer and the restaurant itself is small enough that you know the workers/owner, the incentive for better service in the future doesn't exist.

Its silly that tips are expected for normal service at that. I'll tip when someone genuinely goes out of their way to do their job, but otherwise its silly.

[Anonymous No.41197]

>>41164
>I don't tip

[Anonymous No.41229]

>>41197
Why should anyone?

Its only a custom in the United States. As I noted above, if servers don't make minimum wage with tips their employer must pay the difference. There is little correlation between paying a tip and getting above average service unless you frequent a small business that knows you.

[Anonymous No.41253]

>>41229
>Its only a custom in the United States.
>has never left the United States.

[Anonymous No.41268]

>>41229
Yeah, no. It's not only a custom in the US but tipping to the extent that the US does is insane to most of the world.

[Anonymous No.41491]

>>41109

The better question is how would the economics of the fast food and restaurant industry would change if much of the ordering and services sections were automated

[Anonymous No.41504]

>>41229

Notice how the people who never tip are total douchebags like this guy?

People make an extremely small wage as servers, and you don't feel inclined to tip because you aren't required to. I genuinely hope someone spits in your food.

[Anonymous No.41532]

>>41109

make them all look like her and they could be paid 0 base wage and still make 75k/year at least

[Anonymous No.41538]

>>41504
a bloo bloo. You have to earn that tip.

[Anonymous No.41552]

>>41109
It probably wouldn't change much at all. Restaurants would hire based on the regular minimum wage instead of the tipped-employees minimum wage, so they'd make like $8 an hour instead of $4 + tip. The servers would be less friendly though, but I doubt there would be a major impact on employment or anything.

[Anonymous No.41570]

>>41538

Fuck you baby boomer. I've seen people like you not tip to save yourselves a penny.

[Anonymous No.41581]

Tipping culture in america is disgusting, if I wanted to pay restaurant staff directly I'd hire them myself.

[Anonymous No.41576]

>>41570
Not a boomer. Why should I have to pay your wage? And, even if I did, I would only do it if you performed above and beyond.

[deleted No.41585]

>>41109
As a waiter at a family restaurant in the uk, tipping is usually around 10% and is shared equally between workers.

10% seems standard. You tip people when you enjoyed your time there.

I tip taxi drivers, my hairdresser etc.

[Anonymous No.41599]

>>41504
As I've said several times, if a server doesn't earn minimum wage with tips their employer must pay them the difference.

Paradoxically, if everyone refused to tip like myself servers would get better wages since employers would be unable to pay them below minimum wage.

You know who benefits under the current tip system? Large breasted young women. Studies have shown they are the best tipped, regardless of quality service given. Meanwhile there is little correlation between tips given and quality of service.

Please tell me anon, why should I support tipping? What benefits do we derive from it that wouldn't be better served if they were paid like regular workers?

[Anonymous No.41601]

>>41576

So you expect a server to be at the top of their game serving your ass breadsticks and water?

Are you always at the top of your game at work?

[Anonymous No.41606]

Holy shit these tipping discussion are the fucking worse, why do these need to happen on every 4chan board?

[Anonymous No.41603]

>>41585
Tipping taxi drivers is usually done because they're grumpy and to save time. Tipping hairdressers is fucking stupid and I seriously hope you don't expect ten percent.

[Anonymous No.41624]

>>41601

He's probably referring to attitude and the way you serve

i.e the person is friendly, patient, manner-able or at least checks up on the table when they have the time.

Usually I tip very well regardless of service ,but
when you run into someone who has a shitty attitude or doesn't do their job you can expect to see an empty table or a fat 0 on the tip portion of the receipt

[Anonymous No.41641]

>>41601
Restaurants employ you, not customers. A tip is a gift for people that are at the top of their game.

[Anonymous No.41648]

>>41601
Waiters are in the service industry. If they wanted an office job they should have acquired some skill set. Is it our fault they can't use excel?

[Anonymous No.41653]

Tipping is rare to none existent (out even illegal) in continental Europe and restaurants still seem to work fairly well. It really is only a question of culture.

[Anonymous No.41661]

>>41599
As someone who has worked in multiple restaurants, if you tried to pull that "okay I made X but minimum wage is Y so gimme the difference" thing you keep mentioning, you would be reimbursed and then fired the next day. I know you might just say "not my problem" but that's the reality of it.

[Anonymous No.41664]

>>41648

>brother has a bachelors degree
>works as server
>he can't get hired being a teacher right now because everything is filled in NY

[Anonymous No.41671]

>>41661
And that reality is fucked up. Being okay with that reality is your own fault and you chose to get a job where that could happen. When I go and eat at a restaurant, I should be told what I have to pay on the menu, not be expected to subsidise you because of some fucked up unspoken business practice

[Anonymous No.41704]

>>41661
As I said, if anyone else refused to tip waiters would be better off since employers would have to pay regular wages instead of relying on the tip system.

>>41664
>not moving to where the jobs are

There's a shortage of teachers in the midwestern states. Your brother might have to work in the middle of South Dakota, but the job is there. If he has high location preference he can't blame others for being a server. He's made that choice.

[Anonymous No.41707]

>>41671
I did choose to get a job where that doesn't happen, I'm not a waiter anymore.

[Anonymous No.41737]

You don't tip in Japan. They also have fewer wait staff in Japan. Though they still have excellent service. instead of lots of wait staff constantly floating around. They have a few wait staff that work the whole dining area. Waiting to be summoned by some device or a raised hand.

[Anonymous No.41748]

servers make more money through the tipping system, as opposed to if they got an hourly wage.

if they paid servers an hourly wage, they'd probably just make like $8-9 an hour, for most places, unless it's like a high end restaurant. not to mention the prices of everything would go up.

stop being a jew, and tip your server.

[Anonymous No.41761]

>>41748
also don't forget that eating out is a luxury. If you can't afford a 15% increase on the prices of all the dishes and drinks. Then you shouldn't be eating out in the first place.

[Anonymous No.41793]

>>41748
Some servers make more money under the tipping system. Largely large breasted young women. The rest, not so much.

Why do you hate old people, men, and DFCs anon?

[Anonymous No.41802]

Servers earn minimum wage in here.

[Anonymous No.41824]

>>41704
>what are mobility costs?

[Anonymous No.41832]

Man waiters are assholes.

You fags really expect tips don't you. The fact you expect it means you shouldn't get it, it's like a nigger on welfare.

[Anonymous No.41850]

Waiters/waitresses (not fucking servers, I hate that fucking term) would either make the same amount roughly or far far less at more upscale restaurants. Customers would probably wind up paying more in increased food and drink prices, and restaurant owners would be motivated to hire less help, resulting in worse service overall.

[Anonymous No.41844]

>>41824
In the long run he'll make more as a teacher than a server. He could use a credit card or small loan for moving costs.

>what is consumption smoothing

[Anonymous No.41847]

>>41761
If you can afford the price of something you can buy it.

Biz still hasn't adapted to the free market i see.

[Anonymous No.41855]

>>41793
you can still make decent money if you're a man with good social skills/attractive. being a waiter is a young person's job.

if you're old, hopefully you have job skills beyond that. you don't want to be like those haggard old women that work at denny's.

>>41832
they should expect $2.17 an hour?

[Anonymous No.41884]

>>41847
There is this "race to the bottom" mentality on 4chan. where we must continue paying people crap so other people also paid crap can continue consuming non essential goods and services. Like the people that think we have to make things in China. Everything would be too expensive if made in America. Standard of living would go down.

[Anonymous No.41966]

>>41855
No one makes $2.17 an hour. Employers must reimburse the difference to minimum wage.

What's also awful about the tipping system is that the staff in the backroom aren't getting the tips. Everyone is always complaining about how badly paid waiters are, but what about the staff in the backroom that never see the light of day?

A few restaurants gather the tips and distribute it to everyone, but that isn't the norm.

The tipping system is awful. Simply awful. Why are you all perpetuating it?

[Anonymous No.41990]

>>41966
If you can't afford to tip, just eat at home.

[Anonymous No.42039]

>>41990
I can afford to tip. That isn't the issue. I wouldn't mind a increase in eating out if tipping was removed.

Again, what is the benefit to tipping? No one here has made a reason why tipping is a better system than moving the service industry to regular wages.

By tipping you're all harming waiters in the long run by maintaining the system. If you refused to tip employers would have to change the system to regular wages since they'd be reimbursing everyone anyway.

[Anonymous No.42042]

>>41990
see >>41661

the backroom staff get an hourly wage. servers are more valuable, they provide good customer service. people go to restaurants for the atmosphere more than the food.

the tipping system is not awful, it encourages good service. work harder/do a better job, get better tips. there's less incentive to do that with hourly wages. it would be like a mcjob where no one gives a shit about service.

[Anonymous No.42056]

>>41504
>People make an extremely small wage as servers
Nobody forces them to work as servers.
If they have a problem with their wage they can always find a new job.

[Anonymous No.42106]

>>41990
>You can afford to pay for a meal
>But if you can't pay a tip to someone who's going to get reimbursed if they don't hit minimum wage you should stay home even though you can still afford the meal!

Ha

[Anonymous No.42097]

>>42039
Tipping creates an incentive in service professions for them to provide a better experience and server for the client. This works in most cases.

If you've been to europe or any other area that does not require tipping you'd see the difference. There expectation is that they are going to get the same wage regardless so they dont really care how you think of them.

Theres no harm in the long run of maintaining the system with tipping.

[Anonymous No.42108]

>>42039
>Again, what is the benefit to tipping?
What do you have against it?

[Anonymous No.42127]

>>42106
Shut up poorfag.

[Anonymous No.42166]

So raising the minimum wage sets a price floor above the market wage, and a surplus of labor develops. AKA: Firms are going to hire less and more workers enter the job market looking for a job.

So economically, it's inefficient. No regard to morality or anything.

[Anonymous No.42162]

If you got rid of tipping, it would hit the restaurant industry hard. There would be worse service, as previously mentioned.

It would stifle potential entrepreneurs. Open a restaurant? Great, I'm only on the hook for $2.17 a waiter. That's not too risky, maybe I'll try and open a restaurant. As opposed to, shit. I have to pay them $8 an hour. This will be hard, I don't know if I can afford to open up.

Also, customers will look at the new prices, and not be happy. $19 for a cheeseburger and fries? I'm not eating here, this is ridiculous.

[Anonymous No.42215]

>>42108

>no correlation between tipping and quality of service

>the largest tips go towards large breasted young women
>that discrimination against unattractive or modest looking people
>that discrimination against older people
>that discrimination against men

>backroom staff aren't tipped

[Anonymous No.42258]

>>41603
Tipping Taxi drivers? bullshit.
I'll tip waiters at a restaurant as they are putting food in front of me and thats it.

[Anonymous No.42272]

>>42258
>Tipping Taxi drivers? bullshit.
at least in america, yeah, you tip taxi drivers

[Anonymous No.42274]

>>42215
>>>/r/mensrights

wow, attractive people with good social skills do well in jobs that work with the public! shocking!

why don't they tip me more? i'm a 300lb guy with a neckbeard who loves MLP. i'm a nice guy. *tips fedora*

[Anonymous No.42336]

>>41129
Wow I didn't know this. I live in Washington ad thought servers were making 2 bucks an hour. I think I'll tip more conservatively now.

[Anonymous No.42506]

>>41109
Nothing changes. I have lived both in the US and in Europe and have seen the differencies first hand.

My father actually owns a restaurant in Europe so I have first hand experience from that side as well.

The only thing this scheme achieves is move a part of the cost from the employer to the customer at the expense of both the customer and the server who has to live a more precarious work life.

In reality paying minimum wage has no negative repercussions to my knowledge. The employer makes a little less profit but that's not really a significant barrier of investment. We're talking about relatively small sums of money that only matter if you have a chain of restaurants so that they stack up.

It wouldn't really increase prices. The employer has to think twice before raising the prices when he knows that his customers still have the same money. The most I can think of is raising the prices exactly to the same level they would be if we added the tip. That wouldn't be much of a problem but it is also not as easy a choice as you might think considering that each restaurant has to compete with other restaurants, usually in the same general viscinity that are offering services/food of the same relative quality, so that if one of them decided not to move the cost on to the customer the rest would probably end up losing the less "faithful" customers. Especially with small to medium businesses that is an unacceptable risk. On the contrary since it would amount to decreased prices if left as is the employer would hope it would attract additional customers.

I don't see why it would lead to job losses. Your customers are the same and you need the relevant number of workers to serve them. If you could fire a few workers and still do your job you would have done it already. You wouldn't wait for this. On the contrary if you attract more customers you may need a new waiter or two.

[Anonymous No.42532]

>>42097
We do tip them in europe though. 1Eur or so. So just no 15%-tier crazy numbers.

And if what the other anon says is true, that the employer must reimburse them if they don't make minimum wage, then your point would be rendered moot, no?

[Anonymous No.42717]

>>42532
If you try to go to the employer to get reimbursed you will. However you're not going to be keeping your job for long if this is something that recurrs. If you can't live off the wage given and other waiters/waitresses can you're clearly under performing.Even if you aren't the employer will see it that way.

Your hours will be cut or you will eventually be let go anyway. For the time being you get reimbursed though or you can suck it up.

Most people generally don't tip from what I've seen and I've been to quite a few places in europe. If they do it's like you said something rather small kind of like when you give up the rest of your change in your pocket sort of deal .

>>42506
I have as well seen the experience from both sides it's not how you are saying it is. Maybe it's because of the parts of Europe though.

From what I've seen the waiters tend to get a huge ego or just generally pay less attention to you as a whole.

Taxi drivers are a whole new ball game. They get rather large egos and just try to bully you around. They'll take you in circles or the best one yet was when a taxi driver said he'd fit my entire party in it (Squishing it) so we wouldn't have to take two taxis. Then he wanted us to pay him twice the price for taking 2 extra people. Which of course he told us after we got to our destination.

[Anonymous No.42738]

>>42717
I think commission based jobs fall under something similar as well with employer having to reimburse as well don't they?

[Anonymous No.42765]

>kitchen staff doesn't like you
>they fuck up all your orders so you get shitty tips
>you fired

[Anonymous No.42769]

>>42532
You would have to provide proof, as cash tips are not reported as income by most people, which is tax evasion.

Asking your boss for more money because you didn't get enough tips would be interpreted that you are a lousy worker and greedy. You would be fired as waiters/waitresses are easy to replace.

[Ruby !!iPJbBu5S79g No.42823]

>>42336

I live in Washington and just don't tip. Not only are we not using a tip credit, but we also have the highest minimum wage in the country, and will continue to have the highest minimum wage unless the federal government decides to "hurr durr let's make it 10 bucks an hour", or that one bitch in Seattle tries to make it even higher.

[Anonymous No.42888]

>>42717
>Maybe it's because of the parts of Europe though.

Sure. I mean it's a continent, and I don't know in which countries you have been in.

I don't see why the employer wouldn't just fire them if they weren't doing their job. I mean you're the manager, your job is to manage.

I have never seen what you describe with taxi-drivers and we don't tip taxi drivers at all where I live. They would look at us strange if we attempted to, like trying to tip the guy you buy your groceries from. They have a tarrif for each trip so that they make a certain amount of money either way. The interesting thing is that from a purely theoretical point of view what you describe makes sense, but I have just never encountered it and I used to take taxis pretty much every day the past two years.

The only time I actually had a bad experience with a taxi driver was in Italy (strangely because I found italians to generally be polite) where he attempted to do a circle around the hotel I was staying to inflate the price. I don't even recall if you tip italian taxi drivers in the first place, since it has been a hell of a long time ago, though. I think it was probably because I was a tourist and he thought I would be easier to fool, not knowing the area.

[Anonymous No.42940]

>>41229
>As I noted above, if servers don't make minimum wage with tips their employer must pay the difference
And then they get replaced with somebody that can consistently make good tips so that the employer no longer has to cover the difference.

[Anonymous No.42978]

>>41109
This thread is everything wrong with the glorious US of A™. Feels good to live in a civilized country where tipping is not customary because people already earn a decent wage.

[Anonymous No.42994]

>>42940
Isn't that a socialization of the losses of an enterprise?

The entire point of neoclassical economy is that the risk burdens the capitalist and the labor the worker. If we move the risk from the employer to the employee then we're creating parasites.

[Anonymous No.43015]

>>42978
>everyone earns the same wage, regardless of quality of work

You would like that, you dirty commie.

[Anonymous No.43032]

>>43015
everyone earn minimum wage
people who do quality work earn extra tips
but of course in the land of the free and the home of the brave making employers actually pay their employees decently is socialism

[Anonymous No.43092]

all hell would brake lose, no one would bother working as anything other than a waiter/waitress, no one would aspire to be anything greater. unemployment would rocket as all the restaurants would be inundated with applicants, and restaurants would fail because all the cooks would have become waiters and waitresses, the servers would be made redundant as all the restaurants failed, then with the unemployment at 100% the economy would collapse and China would by the US out and enslave her people and use them for cheap off-world (by this time China have built an intergalactic empire) labour and for experimentation on. US citizens would become laboratory mice and work horses for the Chinese while the Chinese struggled to fight the Xenthians (the evil space aliens from the e887-a super galactic cluster) in a bitter and bloody space war. Finally the Chinese would reach a stalemate in the war, but by this time US citizens have been genetically modified in Chinese experiments so now they barely resemble human beings, being twice as strong and blue in colour, and having no arms but instead having psychic manipulators (these work by augmenting the natural biopsychic field with element 0 which is only found on deep space mosses that grow on atmosphereless metorites). So basically it would doom US citizens to a life of slavery and genetic experimentation like it is in Europe today.

[Anonymous No.43126]

>>42994
Congrats, you figured out one of the biggest problems with "capitalism" today!

[Anonymous No.44438]

>>42888
Countries I've been too in Europe

England
Greece
Turkey
Italy
Germany
Netherlands

I think I may have been in another but if I can't remember it, I most likely wasn't there long enough for it to matter.

Country of which I'm referring that the business is owned in is

Greece

Of course now naming off country turns this into stereotyping though which defeats the purpose of talking about this in generalizations. As saying Of course X country does it, just look at X country, they're an exception to the example. Y countries don't do it.

I obviously have not taken a large sample size so I'm not going to be one of those people that just make statements with nothing but their opinion to back them up, which happens far too often on forums. Though nor do I think a lot of places do proper statistical sampling with studies which is why I'm skeptical tbh of any study unless I have access to the empirical data.

However from a theoretical point of view and just knowing based from what we know on humans as a whole incentives sure like to drive people and if they get properly reinforced either negatively or positively they'll certainly repeat those actions or not repeat them.

[Official Wrinkle Face™ creat(...) No.44444]

>>44438
cool beans

[Official Wrinkle Face™ creat(...) No.44499]

I feel the presence of a certain post number in desperate need of checking

[Anonymous No.44525]

>>44444
nice digits m8

[Dr Kek McKek No.44548]

>>44444
Your beans are of an exceptionally low temperature!

[Anonymous No.44552]

>>44444
u can suck my fat clit

[Official Wrinkle Face™ creat(...) No.44580]

>>44499 (dubs)
and I'm not talking about the quints ɛ( º ͜ఎº)ɜ

[Anonymous No.44761]

It would work how it works everywhere that isn't the US. Fine.

[Anonymous No.46277]

Now, on the other hand, why don't people tip at non restauramt jobs more?

>for ed tipping at restaurants ruined surprise tips in other fields

[Anonymous No.49627]

>>43092
Most realistic assessment of the situation as of now.

[Anonymous No.49657]

I'm a bar back and I make 8 an hour plus a % of the total sales of the shift. So it comes out to more like 11-14$ an hour.
It also means that the servers at my fancy restaurant would not be making anywhere near the 45k/y they make now.

[Anonymous No.49688]

>>49627
Have you ever tried to be a server? Sure floping pancakes at an ihop isn't THAT hard, but when you move up the food chain, shit gets intense. It is for sure a learned skill.

[Anonymous No.49709]

>>49688
I worked as a server for the first part of my adult life. Some fancy shit too. I agree that it is underpaid work, that's why I moved on to greener pastures.
You're just trying to interpret too much into a joke.

[Anonymous No.49712]

It would mean waiters/waitresses would stop giving a shit since they'll get paid.

Which is a double edged sword, since it means that they won't be fucking peppy and annoying and in my face, but they probably won't relay my messages and ask what oil they use because if they use peanut oil I could, you know, fucking die.

[Anonymous No.49721]

>>49709
Oh cool. :3
How did you get out? It's so exhausting looking for a job in my field after working doubles.

[Anonymous No.49725]

ask any country that doesn't do this retarded social dance crap

[Anonymous No.49756]

>>49721
Went into hotel work. Worked my way up to accounting through unclocked overtime as fuck. Honed my skills and then applied at a web company (Quite well known, so no name). Been a year now and I'm getting promoted next month.

[Anonymous No.50410]

>>41504
>tip or else I will take your food hostage

[Anonymous No.50620]

>>41664
>everything is filled in NY

why doesnt he move?

[Anonymous No.50680]

>tfw making $9.50 an hour
>working only 3 days a week due half ass practices of company
>I still tip

goddamn some of you fucks are just pathetic.

[Anonymous No.55116]

>>41109
It seems to work fine here in the UK, where wait staff are paid a decent wage and don't have to live on tips.

I still tip them anyway, because I was taught at an early age to be nice to people who serve you food. And a basic 10% tip for prompt, polite service educates the entire industry.
Last time I ate out, my steak arrived almost like fast food, the server was cute and friendly, and didn't instantly stereotype me and my date. On a busy saturday evening, no less. That earned about a 15% tip on a £50 bill.

This pays off really well. For example, I get good service in the canteen at work, and occasional free food simply for being friendly to the staff there, and treating them like human beings.

>>41504
That's because only douchebags don't tip.

>>42258
> Not tipping taxi drivers
They talk on radios, they remember faces. I hope you enjoy not being picked up on a cold, rainy night because you never give tips.

[Anonymous No.55331]

>>41109
>Americans