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9712134 No.9712134 [Reply] [Original]

whats this weasels end-game?

>> No.9712141

> life, liberty, and property you noob

>> No.9712151

>>9712134
he’s cute :)
he could weasel his way into my toght pussy

>> No.9712171
File: 6 KB, 284x213, Sloth.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
9712171

>>9712134

>> No.9712185

Is that the new Oblivion?

>> No.9712193

>>9712171
lol is OP shopped or are his eyes really like that

>> No.9712221

>>9712193
This guy is actually sloth, the $4B from the ICO is going to his extensive plastic surgery

>> No.9712230
File: 8 KB, 228x221, ALTCOINS.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
9712230

>>9712134
unprofessional as fuck, anyone with a semblance of professionalism would dump their ICO's ETH OTC

>> No.9712243

to make a shitload of money

>> No.9712263

Never realized what kind of ugly piece of shit he turned to be.

>> No.9712286

>>9712230
could still be OTC

>> No.9712332
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9712332

>> No.9712344

>>9712286
haven't they been hyping it up that they're going to dump it on the open market?

>> No.9712368

4
BILLION
DOLLAR
SCAM

>> No.9712369

>>9712344

They already did. Priced in fellas. Maybe $450 at lowest for ETH and it will be a flash crash and recover above $500.

https://www.trustnodes.com/2018/05/28/eos-crashing-ethereum-300000-eth-sold-just-binance-lists-eos-usdt

>> No.9712380

>>9712134
Hes going to dump your worthless shitcoin to zero and nobody is going to give a fuck.

>> No.9712389

All of you fucking butt hurt ETH bois are fucked and I will gladly watch all of you burn. I am getting sick of your bullshit. YOU ARE WORSE THAN r/Bitcoin now.

>> No.9712431

>>9712369
The problem is that ETH has no reason to recover now that it has been properly replaced with technology.

EOS will be the first viable and functional dapps platform to ever exist. And you fucking idiots are acting like a bunch of salty nocoiners.

I want all of you fucking morons to suffer as technology leaves you in the past. I see you no differently than a bunch of fucking neoluddites with no future in the advancement of technology. A bunch of fucking losers who want to call themselves "cypher punks" but became no better than a bunch of establishment shills.

>> No.9712449

>>9712193
are you new to this life? don't you knew people are ugly?

>> No.9712475

>>9712431
That in itself suggests CFTC clearly takes the view ethereum is a commodity since it is a decentralized running network with much utility, but SEC has made it somewhat clear they consider ICOs of the EOS kind to be a security.

>> No.9712577

>>9712475
>ethereum is a commodity since it is a decentralized running network with much utility

That cant run anything. Its like having an electric car but no way to power it. I don't even view this as a commodity with utility outside of the fact you can scrap it for parts.

One of the things that really pisses me off about all of this shit is this fucking notion that SO DUM FUCKS decided they would adopt disruptive technology as their religion then act so disgustingly butt hurt the moment that more disruptive technology would disrupt the disruptive technology.

Its like FUCK MAN!! Where have you fucking idiots been the last century. You live by the sword YOU DIE BY THE SWORD!! If you adopt disruptive technology you sit your ass down and wait for the it to be disrupted by the next wave.

Did you think you would be sitting on a stack of ETH until the end of fucking time?

FUCK ALL OF YOU, you are a disgraceful hindrance now.

>> No.9712622

>>9712577
>eth on coinbase

Checkmate bitch

>> No.9712653

>>9712475

You do know Ethereum was sold and distributed through an ICO right?

>> No.9712657
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9712657

>>9712577

your blinded by your bags my dude, trust me the EOS bags will get heavier and heavier as the year closes out, while ETH is on win3.1 rightnow getting ready to drop winXP, you will learn you dont fuck with the king whose already established

>> No.9712676

>>9712622
>Checkmate bitch

wut?
What the fuck is this private pile? This is a doughnut of a fucking argument. I DIDNT KNOW THEY STACKED SHIT THAT HIGH!

>> No.9712724
File: 251 KB, 477x500, wolf-pack-quote-477x500.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
9712724

Fuck getting bags of old shit. Look at getting in at the ground floor on good shit like this https://www.theaccountingblockchain.io/?aId=7543845-2892534

>> No.9712733

>>9712657
>your blinded by your bags my dude, trust me the EOS bags will get heavier and heavier as the year closes out, while ETH is on win3.1 rightnow getting ready to drop winXP, you will learn you dont fuck with the king whose already established

I dont give a fuck, I am using the technology. Unlike you, who wants to hold on to a useless fucking vanity token I am going to begin getting into making a fucking use out of this shit. I am determined to do so. You can make gains by doing shit too, not just hoping for the value to go up.

But all you are going to do is sit on a worthless shitcoin that cant even handle a simple dapp, high transaction fees and times that will never be useful for anything outside of niche garbage nobody is ever going to give a fuck about.

> Oh dont fuck with the king ..... da kang an sheet

Your not a king of your tech sucks.

>> No.9712734
File: 37 KB, 645x773, polbase-5acd4a2aef747.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
9712734

>>9712431

ALL WE NEED IS 21 VALIDATING NODES for EARTH OPERATING SYSTEM!

>> No.9712758

>>9712431

Dude it flash crashed to $490s on Buttfenex when EOS sold half their stack a week ago and it recovered to what, $580 now?

>> No.9712803

eos will completely blow eth out of the water eventually. if you're holding eth for shits and giggles right now, that's fine. but you'll need an exit strategy b4 the year's out cos that shitcoin is gonna look so lame next to its bigger and bettr competitor.

>> No.9712812

>>9712758
Considering the fact the coin cant run anything, I shouldn't even be talking about it. It shouldn't even be a discussion LOL

"A discussion" HAHAHA

You guys, all became everything you hate and its fucking sad. Its terrible in every fucking way possible. You should be ashamed of your selves. Why are you even holding on to the coin that cannot be used for anything?

Its the same shit that happened with Bitcoin. Its fucking garbage. But I think the ETH people are worse at this point. You guys, of all people, should be embracing new technology. I thought there was a meaningful ideology behind this shit.

Nah it was all about your fucking bags. Fuck all of you.

You are everything you once hated. And if the next generation of coins do well then that will be never ending salt in your fucking wounds. And I hope it stings like hell. GET FUCKED.

>> No.9712819
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9712819

To be dominated by pic related

>> No.9712828

If you fuckers think this shit is just about EOS then your fucking stupid. There are a number of superior next gen dapp capable coins marching up CMC. And I see you eth bois acting the same way toward all of them too.

Its going to feel good to see your shitcoin below 100 again. Just another example of history repeating itself.

>> No.9712885

>>9712812

Kek, I'm planning to sell my ETH but I'm not going to do it emotionally. Chill brah.

>> No.9712900

he's a conman
as decentralized as aws

>> No.9712939

>>9712812
I would just like to take a moment to point out that Ethereum network has been running dapps for over a year now, and EOS is the system that can't run anything because it has no network.

>> No.9712956

>>9712885
Alright, honestly its been building up because of how insane the organized propaganda machine of ethereum has been. It would be one thing if they were being honest and critiquing the tech. But now its just lies and smear with no actual content.

>> No.9713006

>>9712939
>I would just like to take a moment to point out that Ethereum network has been running dapps for over a year now, and EOS is the system that can't run anything because it has no network.

dude its dapps are bad. Other than one exchange that is slow as hell ETHs biggest achievement is its tokens. Which has been really good and bad. I mean we can farm some shrimp I guess.... Breed some cats...

The dapp space needs to advance to higher TPS. Badly. Like really badly. ETH is highly overvalued right now.

>> No.9713032

>>9712956

I still believe in ETH long term, but the fact it can be DDOSed so easily through that dumb nepay scam that's happening right now, or cryptokitties, makes it completely unattractive for any real business use until this problems are solved. Also dozens of ICOs are going to have their funds seized as we are already seeing with TBAR and SHIP, leading to ICOs exit scamming or the seized funds being sold by the goobermints - but that could take years like Mt Gox.

TLDR sell on the next pump and buy back at $300-350. But since this market is irrational it will probably go to $1500 first. I'm trying to get out at $650-700.

>> No.9713033

>>9713006
Ahahahahahaha

>> No.9713056

>>9712956
>But now its just lies and smear with no actual content.
Take a look in the mirror lmfao, that's all you've been doing this entire thread. just throwing insults. you're the same cancer that you criticize. 10 posts and 0 useful content.

>> No.9713102

>>9713056
yeah sure man. lol
This shit is fucking hilarious. I don't know why but it actually makes me happy to see you people squirm like this. Now your the victims huh HAHAHAHA

That's the best shit ever :D

Anyway see you losers after EOS succeeds / fails, who knows what its going to do. But my god is it going to feel good to see ETH crash.

>> No.9713259

You ever wanted to bet against 90% of the market? All the nay sayers and pessimists? 4chan, reddit and medium? Then you should buy EOS. Biggest ico on record, has combined VC funding and holdings close to their own own market cap. And yet people are pretending it's some meme project which only can fail. Probably the same people who had nothing else to do than laugh at tron, verge and cardano holders which where raking in triple percentage points. It's about money idiots when will you wake up? I am on eos with 50% of my portfolio, wild profits come from wild risks most of /biz/ is to scared to take.

>> No.9713311
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9713311

>>9712141
>but no privacy

this is an anonymous board you think we want what Dan calls "radical transparency" ? yeah we really wanna watch spank tube on eos so our moms can see we watch cuck piss poop porn

>> No.9713318

>>9712141
>but no privacy

this is an anonymous board you think we want what Dan calls "radical transparency" ? yeah we really wanna watch spank tube on eos so our moms can see we watch cuck piss poop porn

>> No.9713323

>>9713311

Take a look at monero's btc ratio and tell me how privacy is a selling point in this stage of crypto? It's not, seems to be the exact opposite.

>> No.9713325

>>9713318
>>9713311
how the fuck did it post twice

>> No.9713337

>>9713323
privacy is a feature, not the whole deal, monero is stupid because its only private and does nothing else. we need privacy to be one feature of something that does many things

>> No.9713359

ETH ICO scam is over. Dan is going to teach Vitalik a lesson in game theory

>> No.9713399

>>9713337

Long term we need privacy, short term nobody cares. It's hype season and you follow the money. Wouldn't you have sold if you knew fluffy was about to cash out $800k in monero to buy a watch so you could buy the dip after? EOS has $500+ million in ETH, just sitting in a transparent wallet with no other intention than to sell.

If Sergey had that kind of money lying around we would be already at 1000$/Link. But no its different because eos is the meme. Kek

>> No.9713416

>>9713399
there are coins out there going up quicker than eos in the short term like iotx and ocn

>> No.9713463

>>9713416

Cool, I'm taking my chances with eos. It's like I am always losing money by listening to strangers advice. And always leaving money on the table by buying into "project is doomed to fail" meme. Fundamentals for eos to go parabolic are no different than with the eth launch hype or antshares. Don't let yourself be blinded by people holding bags of no value.

>> No.9713498

>>9712193
Not shooped. This is what he looks like in recent videos.

>> No.9713516

>>9713463
you should read this
https://medium.com/@bensig/understanding-the-eos-mainnet-launch-a09aba035287

>> No.9713579

>>9713516

I have read a ton of credible eos criticism. Doesn't change the fact that at this point in the market I'd rather bet against the masses than follow them.

>> No.9713590

>>9713579
you are following the masses by falling for that scam anon

>> No.9713604

>>9713006
I don't disagree, but this is something that the Ethereum Foundation has been aware of from the beginning, and working on solutions for, that don't rely on limiting block producing to a handful of supercomputers.

>> No.9713607

>>9713579
ETH holders have turned into cultists. Easy money betting against them considering sharding is never going to work on Ethereum

>> No.9713643

>>9713590

Even that is a biased opinion. Isn't half of crypto scene rustled about eos? The fud to shill ratio on eos is about 100/1. That should be undeniable clear . Show me which other project has as much money lying around to develop their project. Show me which other team has a track record like eos. Most of you will be in for a huge surprise.

>> No.9713652

>>9713579
EOS is so fat from funding they will never work hard on the project, just like Tezos.
With 21 nodes, they're more centralized than Cloudflare. The first subpoena they get, they'll fold.

After 1 year raising money, there's no more money to pump it. Secondary trading will be nonexistent. EOS made all the money, traders made nothing.

Expect the SEC to ram them hard. They got hit with a notice and still went through with the illegal token sale. Good luck with your bags.

>> No.9713663
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9713663

>>9713652

Again the "project will never work" meme. The exact reason why I am betting against your asses.

>> No.9713669

>>9713643
more people fell for EOS, it just seems like there's more anti-EOS people out there because most EOS holders are total retards and don't even know how to operate a wallet or register their tokens, so they can never give any rebuttals when someone who knows what they're talking about shits on their scam coin.

and no one even cares about development on EOS. 95% of the holders are speculating and trying to make a profit, they don't even know mainnet won't be active at launch.

>> No.9713672

>>9713652

>EOS is so fat from funding they will never work hard on the project, just like Tezos.

That's a fallacy. Nice cope

>> No.9713700

>>9713663
It will work fine and buying now doesn't have any downside risk.
I'm just not betting on it in the long term.

>>9713672
>That's a fallacy. Nice cope
Yea right faggot. Tezos hasn't done shit since their fundraising. Anytime you raise that much money, it kills your drive. A moron like you can't see reality though.

>> No.9713704

Do you guys recommend trading ETH for EOS right now...ride the EOS pump and then dump it for cheap ETH?

>> No.9713738

>>9713700

Money doesn't kill drive you fucking putz. Look at Jeff Bezos as one obvious example.

From what I remember, the thing that halted Tezos for a few months was the ex-leader of their foundation was caught self-dealing, so the bank froze all money for development.
I checked their alphanet a few weeks back and they certainly are working on Tezos.

>> No.9713740

>>9712332
Musk was always handsome, it's just the stupid haircut and balding he had going back then. Now he's a solid 7-8/10. No homo.

>> No.9713745

>>9713652
Doesnt matter, those events will cause other situations to come about. But right now we need to break the dapps side wide open. That means dealing with these potential risks.

Dapps are the only chance of us getting mass adoption moving forward. Use cases are the only hope.

SO the way I see this is, we line up about 10 maybe dapp capable coins, all of which are better than ETH as it stands right now btw, and have them brawl with each other hardcore.

So EOS gets a couple solid dapps that get a lot of traction. One of the dapps explodes to maybe early days facebook levels of users. Media attention and people get fucking hooked.

The government gets super ultra butt hurt that nobody pays taxes for their upvotes and goes after 8 year old little Timmy for his crypto pokemon pets and gets his parents thrown in jail. EOS eventually gets subpoenas and maybe caves in eventually. The CIA runs rough shot on /biz/ to smear the hell out of crypto and fails miserably.

Dan ends up getting thrown into huge court battle cases. And we watch shit unfold where "hey guys the 21 nodes might not be enough" but it doesn't matter because everyone is hooked as fuck on X new social media dapp that has made things so much better for content creators! Nobody wants to go back to FUCKBook and SHITTUBE.

At which point ETH may be nearing on some new tech a few years down the line that makes it capable of 10k TPS. And people spread out to all over the place to all kinds of new coins.

We need to get people addicted to dapps. its the next step. Like it or not EOS is your vegetables. Now fucking eat it. Figure out some dapps that dont suck and make it happen.

>> No.9713761

>>9713738
Bezos started Amazon from the bottom, so your example is garbage. AMZN is worth billions now, but that's after he grew it.

Check out r/tezos once in a while. The Breitmans ran off with the money and are fielding lawsuits and SEC subpoenas. They've outsourced their development to some dev shop. They're lazy fucks.

>> No.9713769

>>9713704
EOS may not pump at all. But at least it will give you airdrops. But fuck all if its possible to predict anything right now. My gutt is telling me EOS is going to dump post mainnet especially with how much hate it has.

>> No.9713787

>>9713769
Right now EOS is on the rise. I fucking hate it but if they're going to market sell ETH and crash it, fuck it I'll play their game

>> No.9713799

>>9713761

>Check out r/tezos once in a while. The Breitmans ran off with the money and are fielding lawsuits and SEC subpoenas.

Breitman's don't receive any money until the mainnet has been running for eight months without issue.

>They've outsourced their development to some dev shop. They're lazy fucks.

The whole road map was to work with OCamlPro for development. They've changed nothing the whole time, brainlet.

>Bezos started Amazon from the bottom

So? Tezos has been worked on since 2014

>> No.9713814

>>9713769
Or I'll just tether and buy back cheap ETH, just to be safe.

>> No.9713878

>>9713814

Better off buying BTC if you don't feel like taking risks or getting justed. BTC might bart and leave you in a worse position than had you held ETH during the EOS dump. Lets not pretend that anyone here can actually time the market.

>> No.9713890

>>9713878
Yea, that's the problem. 95% of people here know nothing.

>> No.9713896

>>9712230
Why? Why not crush its competitor at the same time?

>> No.9713910

>>9713896
in the real world crushing your competitors makes people hate you and they go out of their way to harm you. Dan's career in crypto would be over, but it already will be once EOS fails.

>> No.9713941 [DELETED] 

>>9713896

Look at it from a game theory stand point rather than speculation
Lets combine all the things we know beyond doubt:

> EOS has 1 million in Ether (half a billion $)
> EOS needs to sell this ETH
> EOS will have to pay their platform funded projects in EOS
> EOS will benefit from a higher EOS valuation
> EOS will benefit from a lower ETH valuation (whether it was brought down maliciously or not)

The crowdfunded ETH will leave the EOS market cap.
Look at the MT.Gox subsidiary sell off. Considerably less money in a larger cap project.
You know what moving those funds does to BTC without them even being sold.

Now think about EOS moving their 1 milllion Ether, which they eventually will.
Speculators WILL follow the money, traders will follow the money
Dumb money will forever remain on the sidelines,
Running after petty gains.

>> No.9713951

>>9713745
Yea, pioneers take the arrows, settlers take the land. If EOS gets traction on dapp adoption that's great and all. I see centralization as a huge risk factor in their horizon, so long term I'm bearish.

>> No.9713953

Look at it from a game theory stand point rather than speculation
Lets combine all the things we know beyond doubt:

> EOS has 1 million in Ether (half a billion $)
> EOS needs to sell this ETH
> EOS will have to pay their platform funded projects in EOS
> EOS will benefit from a higher EOS valuation
> EOS will benefit from a lower ETH valuation (whether it was brought down maliciously or not)

The crowdfunded ETH will leave the ETH market cap.
Look at the MT.Gox subsidiary sell off. Considerably less money in a larger cap project.
You know what moving those funds does to BTC without them even being sold.

Now think about EOS moving their 1 milllion Ether, which they eventually will.
Speculators WILL follow the money, traders will follow the money
Dumb money will forever remain on the sidelines,
Running after petty gains.

>> No.9713954

>>9713769

I held EOS but decided to sell it couple of days ago and not register it.

The point was everything only see "airdrops" but they cleary forget almost every airdrop will gave 1:1 so until you have at least 10k, the airdrop reward wouldn't be substantial and wouldn't justify holding EOS just for that. For example, if you would held through mainnet and let's say dump occurs, you'll lose 20% of the EOS price but receive 5% from the next 100 airdrops.

Furthermore, every airdrop will have its own requirements and most likely you'll have to "register" there too, participate in Telegram and such bullshit. Believe me, I think airdrops will be oversaturated.

So I'd rather sell high, buy the mainnet dip if it occurs and hold.

This way you get profit from recent pump and avoid any potential major mainnet problems.

>> No.9713972

>>9713954
>This way you get profit from recent pump and avoid any potential major mainnet problems.

We where saying the same right before ETH ICO and Antshares launch.
Look where ETH is now and look where Antshares went after NEO rebranding.
So many people missed out due to being biased about the project.

> Scared money aint make no money
> Wild profits come from taking wild risks, not mild risks.

>> No.9714013

>>9713972

I'll never get the comparison with those two.

They weren't in the top5 MC and those projects profited from last bull run when crypto was pretty unknown.

>> No.9714023

>>9713972
the difference is ETH and NEO are decentralized and launching their mainnets was trivial. EOS is centralized so there is a myriad of problems that can halt or delay mainnet weeks or even months, with many competing chains by different groups that use the same public/private key pairs. even if the appointed block producers execute launch perfectly and no one attacks the network, it will still take multiple days to become fully active. most EOS holders are new money fomo retards and will likely panic sell during this period under the assumption the network will be active the moment launch happens.

>> No.9714073
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9714073

>>9712134
The Dumpening commences!!!!

Time to start the ETHnic cleansing.

>> No.9714091
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9714091

>>9713910
>Dan's career in crypto would be over

>> No.9714097

>>9714091
go ahead and try it in the real world, see how far it gets.

>> No.9714118

just seeing the desperate scrambling around this "constitution", people trying to make changes in it to reduce "centralization", or "cartels" forming, should tell you everything you need to know about eos, and why it will only have a very niche userbase, if at all.

it only takes 15 people to decide to take your entire eos balance, or any token or asset you have, whether it represents something in the real world or not, and take it away from you, with no resource or way for you to stop it.

15 people.

>> No.9714119

>>9712185
lmao

>> No.9714133

>>9714097
He has billions of dollars. He can self finance as many blockchain companies as he wants until the end of time. He has fuck you money.

Not to mention he has now made 3 highly successful top 30 blockchains. People would cream their pants if this ugly bastard wanted to work on their project.

>> No.9714135
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9714135

>>9714118

>> No.9714137

>>9714013

I am not comparing the potential rise, I am comparing the sentiment before the launch. Actually I am comparing the sentiment of many other launches and events to what is going to happen with EOS. MANY times we as a collective community (4chan, reddit, medium, steem) are very wrong about how things will pan out, almost on the exact opposite site of the spectrum (look at Verge, Tron, Cardano and Ripple too for an example). I'd rather bet against these masses than be with them.

>>9714023

I get that decentralization is the upmost important thing for any project in the Cryptocurrency scene. Without decentralization you basically void Satohi's view, you void the Cypherpunk view and you void the Cryptoanarchists dream. YET, how many projects in the top 10, 25, 50, 100 are absolutely centralized? And probably centralized less than EOS will be after the main net launch even? Just because a project cannot decentralize at the current point has not meant that it won't massively explode in value due to very evident market forces (EOS needing to liquidate +1 mil in Ether tokens).

> most EOS holders are new money fomo retards and will likely panic sell during this period under the assumption the network will be active the moment launch happens.

Same for Verge, yet if you'd follow the market forces you would have been golden due to the pumpWe ignore these market forces in favor for stupid cultism and biased opinions which are echo'd from one competing project to another. DYOR - The FUD against EOS outweighs the shilling by a factor of 100, which will force a lot of "dump" money to enter EOS after the launch in case it should pump.

>> No.9714140
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9714140

>>9714118

Lmao what

>> No.9714143

>>9714135
danny's extra chromosome isn't getting his grubby mitts on my money

>> No.9714147

>>9713954

the only reason why those faggots are doing air drops is so they can circumvent and future regulations against them for soliciting unregistered securities

>> No.9714160

ETH pumping!

>> No.9714171

>>9714147
it won't work though, it's the same as laundering.

if they're getting paid by EOS or b1 to fund their project, and in return they airdrop tokens as part of an agreement, that's the same as an ICO, if they have at any point promoted the fact that holders or EOS are going to get airdropped some known ratio of tokens per EOS.

the regulators aren't going to be fooled by this when they spend all of their time dealing with launderers.

>> No.9714183

>>9714133
>now made 3 highly successful top 30 blockchains
you realize EOS still doesn't exist yet right? the erc20 token isn't even frozen yet.

and you got a lot to learn about the real world kid. I do hope you go through life stomping on people so you eventually do get what's coming to you.

>> No.9714200
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9714200

>>9714183
>the 5th largest crypto in the world doesnt exist
>karma is real

>> No.9714202

>>9714137

You may be right about the adoption and the amount of users can make it more of a distributed network.


but currently as the EOS protocol is designed.

and some thing people should seriously call into question is the delegate proof of stake algorithm

users will stake their coins to vote for block producers. what is to stop block producers and whales who have massive amounts of EOS to vote for themselves??

This consensus algorithm wasn't really thought through and t through honestly. and their unpreparedness to sucessfully and smoothly launch this network (even with 4billion to fund it) is a far fetched pipe dream

EOS investors are perhaps some of the most unenlightened halfwitts to give this asshole dan larimer any money.

some of them lack critical thinking skills,

and most of them are the type to pull out their wallet upon first sight of a shitty infomercial.

>> No.9714204

>>9714200

Its all in our heads

>> No.9714227

>>9714140
basically the EOS "constitution" is hashed in every transaction, and it states that you will not lie or be dishonest, immoral, etc etc. if you violate it the BPs can confiscate your balance.

>>9714200
the ICO for EOS (yes, ICO even though Dan claims it was a "token distribution") was very successful but no, EOS mainnet still doesn't exist yet, so no you can't call it successful yet. this is why it's going to dump hard on launch, you holders are so brain dead you have no concept over how blockchains work.

>> No.9714241
File: 28 KB, 400x400, 1411564712007.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
9714241

>>9714227
Im screencapping this. This is pure gold.

>> No.9714249

>>9714183
lets assume eos does exist, even then, it's a stretch to call steemit and bitshares highly successful, especially from an investor standpoint.

bitshares was dead until steem came along, and then it had plenty of pump and dumps, but nothing else. steem also had a huge pump and dump, but has languished and theyve made no attempt to fix any of the centralization or spam/censorship issues it's had from the beginning.

these aren't successful blockchains, they're half baked ideas, released to the world under the promise of development, then abandoned for a danny's new toy.

what happens when the inevitable happens, a cartel or group only interested in the short to mid term forms around eos, wielding more power than block1 or danny, and he now, just like every time before, gives up and moves onto something else.

danny is a liability, not an asset. he himself hasn't contributed significantly to eos itself, but he is the figurehead, and one that's likely to jump ship because he's far more interested in designing and creating blockchains that maintaining and dealing with bugs, issues, and attacks, and eos is going to have so much more to deal with due to it's much larger surface area.

vitalik might be autistic as fuck, but at least we know he's never moving to a different project, and it's ethereum or nothing to him.

>> No.9714258

>>9714227

and who writes and determines this constitution?

who can change the rules at will?


A CENTRALIZED SHIT COIN. that's all this is.

>> No.9714274
File: 67 KB, 1440x1080, 0592585282458754287.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
9714274

>>9714227

Yeah sure but 15 people? It's the block producers who do the calls and they have to get together to do any of this. Also this needs to be automated some way, nobody can seriously govern this shit without automation.
You are also saying that it's a bad thing that scammers can't thrive so freely anymore. I get that decentralized muh freedum aspect of the blockchain but unregulated and everything it's still fucking cringey commie utopia where everyone gets to do what they want is not real life. I would bet no anarchist decentralized governments could ever work to be big. It would just stay in small groups where one would basically still lead the whole show. It's just human nature.

>> No.9714280

>>9714249

NO ONE GIVES A FUCK ABOUT BITSHARES.

WHO THE FUCK USES BITSHARES SERIOUSLY?!?!?!


Steemit is a steeming pile of shit where content producers aren't even getting fairly paid or given credit. and most people on that garbage are censored non stop. look it up yourself

EOS fanbois give this cuckold dan larimer way too much credit.

>> No.9714294

>>9714274
you're right the problem with the constitution is enforcement which is why it's total bullshit and 110% cringe. at the end of the day a chinese cartel will end up controlling all the BPs, so they won't give a shit anyways.

>> No.9714297

>>9714258
the "community" does, but in reality its a handful of block producers that decide everything about the coin.

eos is either going to fork more than any other coin, or its going to end up a insular cartel of a few people, again only interested in short to mid term profit.

there's no long term survivability for a coin like eos, that depends so much on human relationships and emotions, when the incentives are aligned towards profit only, and not altruistic ideas about decentralization, or censorship resistance.

>> No.9714304

>>9714280
did you reply to the wrong post? that's exactly what i said.

>> No.9714328

>>9714202

> EOS investors are perhaps some of the most unenlightened halfwitts to give this asshole dan larimer any money.
> some of them lack critical thinking skills,
> and most of them are the type to pull out their wallet upon first sight of a shitty infomercial.

I don't get these arguments, seriously. All the reasons against EOS are backed up with some logical fallacies.
You're saying that "some of them lack critical thinking skills", yet you feel compelled to straw man your argument

> bitshares was dead until steem came along, and then it had plenty of pump and dumps, but nothing else. steem also had a huge pump and dump, but has languished and theyve made no attempt to fix any of the centralization or spam/censorship issues it's had from the beginning.

Despite dump/pump, spam, censorship non-decentralization and what not. Both Steem and Bitshares are still around.
And both are doing better from an investors point of view than a year ago.

> what happens when the inevitable happens, a cartel or group only interested in the short to mid term forms around eos, wielding more power than block1 or danny, and he now, just like every time before, gives up and moves onto something else.

Speculation, how without a doubt do you know cartelization will happen? Again, detecting a fallacy here.

> danny is a liability, not an asset.

How is a CTO which created several succesful projects, funded a couple of billion $ not an asset?
Seriously....anon

>> No.9714331

>>9714294
So that just sounds to me like ethereum and bitcoin with their own cartels mining shit anyways. It's all the same shit in different packages.

EOS just in theory makes it possible to vote those cartels out if people stake enough EOS. If some BPs acquire too significant amount of EOS... well then it's just the way it is.

>> No.9714362

>>9714331
sure miners have a lot of hash power but the worst they can do is double spend, and they won't do that on BTC or ETH because the community would crucify them. the BPs however can do whatever the fuck they want including stealing your funds because you lied about your age when visiting a porn site.

and no, people won't band together and vote cartels out because they literally don't give a shit about the EOS network. everyone holding EOS currently is simply trying to turn a profit, and most of them don't even know how to use wallets so they post the same retarded questions on r/EOS every 3 minutes.

>> No.9714376

>>9714328
The only real fud against eos is:

Cartels might happen. Maybe. If so you can always sell your stack and buy something else. If it gets so big that cartels form you will likely have 10x your stack by that point anyway. They probably wont from, this scenario is entirely theoretical.

Centralization. People in power can potentially shit on you. However they are unlikely to do this because they stand to lose money if the value of eos drops. Therefore they will likely only use it for hacks, scams, and to fix the inevitable 100 million dollar fuckups pajeet devs manage to code into their subchains.

Inflation. Eos inflates about 2% a year. Not great, but no worse than dollars. Meanwhile its valuation is likely to increase many, many times that amount, especially in the short to medium run.

>> No.9714413

>>9714362

Did you ever visit any other ICO's telegram or read how people use ethereum? Most can't even figure out how to use gas on DEXs. This is a big reason I find EOS to succeed in the long run as there is no fees, just staking of your EOS.

Also if those BPs just steal your EOS because of your bad acts on the constitution and what not. Guess the constitution can be voted to be changed? Also if the BP cartel just fucks everybody's shit up, well then the price of EOS will crash and the cartels will be left empty handed governing a dead blockchain with no users. Why would anybody greedy fuck ever do that? They want as many users as they possibly can.

>> No.9714418

>>9714331
we saw what happened when chinks tried to change bitcoin. the community said no, and the chinks were forced to create their own fork of bitcoin to play with.

in eos, 15 "miners" can just take anybody's money, for any reason. only retroactively can you undo the mess they've made, but by then it might be too late.

eos is designed to let those 15 people do absolutely anything they want to the coin. think of it like a bank, not a cryptocurrency or a blockchain. you can protest all you want, but they have the final say on everything that happens to the chain, and to your money, and to your contracts.

>> No.9714421

>>9714328

Here are my arguements AGAINST EOS


1. Year long ico raised nearly 4 billion raised and zero clarity on how that money will be spent down the road.

2. EOS algorithm is not or ever will be decentralized if Blockproducers and whales can buy votes for themselves

additionally most EOS investors will conflate mining pools vs their delegated block producers. which is fucking retarded because it's more secure to have an infinite amount of validators and full nodes securing the network data , than a cluster fuck of 21 block producers for the entire network (which by the way can vote themselves)

1,000,000 distributed full nodes containing the blockchain data is more secure than 21 Nodes who could easily collude and invalid you.

This is why EOS shillers are fucking retarded. they don't get that last major point of contention i just had pointed out.

3. This entire project feels rushed and half baked, the chinese found serious flaws and vulnerabilities just a week before the official launch date.


4. Lastly their purchase agreement has a "fuckall i'm not liabilty if shit hits the fan" language written all of over it

>> No.9714437

>>9714413
eos has some great built in features, like time locking, automatic recovery to a preset address if you dont use your account in X days.

but then they throw all of those security features away by making everybody's accounts property of those 15 block producers. who cares if you want recover a lost account if those 15 people can take your money at any time for any reason.

the counterparty risk for using eos is greater than a bank.

>> No.9714459

>>9714413
wallets don't even exist yet and mainnet is supposed to be in less than a day. do you really believe all these fomo buyers will be able to vote for BPs via command line? EOS is setting the bar for a rushed and unprepared launch process.

and it won't be a cartel forming and fucking people over overnight, it will be a long drawn out process like with LISK and the BPs will have cashed out their millions by the time it's dead. the only people holding a speculators so they don't care if mainnet survives.

>> No.9714461

>>9714376

I agree that there is a chance for cartels to happen, and that chance is probably higher than most other projects due to EOS design. However, I believe that it is within the communities interest, along with the people who potentially form these cartels to search a middle ground so both won't be hurt by decisions (again, game theory).


> Inflation. Eos inflates about 2% a year.

Ethereum inflation is +14%
Bitcoin inflation is +4%

> 1. Year long ico raised nearly 4 billion raised and zero clarity on how that money will be spent down the road.

How is that different from any other ICO?

> 2. EOS algorithm is not or ever will be decentralized if Blockproducers and whales can buy votes for themselves

How does decentralization matter when half of the projects in the top 10 aren't decentralized?
I do agree with the second part, but I also don't think whales controlling markets is unique to EOS

> additionally most EOS investors will conflate mining pools vs their delegated block producers.

"most" is an assumption without a base.

> 3. This entire project feels rushed and half baked

How many other project feels like absolute scams, yet blew us out of the water?

> the chinese found serious flaws and vulnerabilities just a week before the official launch date.

I did look into that, and vulnerabilities "apparently" were fixed long before the Chinese news came out.
I see nobody highlighting this problem now, hours before the launch.

> 4. Lastly their purchase agreement has a "fuckall i'm not liabilty if shit hits the fan" language written all of over it

No crypto project ultimately is accountable for their holders.

>> No.9714499

>>9714459
>wallets don't even exist yet

Nigger they already have iOS app where you just input your private key and then go press the BPs on the list which you like. You are so fucking retarded I can't even..

>> No.9714501
File: 6 KB, 207x243, download.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
9714501

>>9714461
>> 1. Year long ico raised nearly 4 billion raised and zero clarity on how that money will be spent down the road.
>How is that different from any other ICO?

1 YEAR ICO. ONE YEAR ICO. LONGEST EVER ICO. LARGEST IN HISTORY TO DATE.

AGAIN ZERO CLARITY ON FUTURE FUNDING PROPOSALS

all you get is a fuck you purchase agreement.

>> 3. This entire project feels rushed and half baked

>I did look into that, and vulnerabilities "apparently" were fixed long before the Chinese news came out.

IF YOU THINK THIS IS THE ONLY VUNERABILITIES IN THE CODE. YOU ARE REALLY RETARDED. more will be found

>No crypto project ultimately is accountable for their holders.

ofcourse but if you read it in it's entirety, it's like they are covering all their bases to absolve themselves of any legal action against them, call it smart. but i call scammy, feels scammy.

especially when they are registered in fucking cayman islands to avoid more taxes.

>> No.9714517

>>9714499
oh shit, an iOS wallet, wow, crypto is saved. that's just further evidence how trashy the dev team really is. releasing a stupid iOS wallet before anything else is a straight up Justin Sun move.

>> No.9714578

>>9714461

those bags are about to get real heavy,

https://www.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/8nswh1/eos_has_raised_4b_in_funding_without_a_working/

>> No.9714579

>>9714501

> 1 YEAR ICO. ONE YEAR ICO. LONGEST EVER ICO. LARGEST IN HISTORY TO DATE.

Why does the timeline matter? Economically, where do you see an issue here?

> AGAIN ZERO CLARITY ON FUTURE FUNDING PROPOSALS

Meaning that they will use the money to screw their own project?
Did Ethereum even have a funding proposal after their ICO? (serious question)

> IF YOU THINK THIS IS THE ONLY VUNERABILITIES IN THE CODE. YOU ARE REALLY RETARDED. more will be found

Another baseless assumption, how is this logical reasoning? YES they MAY find more vulnerabilities, especially because the project will be at day-0, but it is not an absolute guarantee. It is not any different from the launch of other mainnets. I would argue that 1 year of time between ICO and launch gives you a lot more overhead space to actually get the most out of audits.

> ofcourse but if you read it in it's entirety, it's like they are covering all their bases to absolve themselves of any legal action against them, call it smart. but i call scammy, feels scammy.

Back to my general sentiment comment: If it feels scammy to the majority of the scene, I will rather bet against the sentiment than to follow an incredbly huge amount of people saying X won't be profitable. The Crypto hivemind seems to be wrong more than right on most moon shots and scams.

> especially when they are registered in fucking cayman islands to avoid more taxes.

It's not illegal, its a smart move tax wise.
Should they register in a country with the highest taxes instead?
What's their alternative anyways? And where do we define out of which country a semi-decentralized project is based out of?

>> No.9714588

>>9714517

Most people can operate that thing easier than MEW. Also you seem butthurt that they are bringing mass adoption easily for people?

>> No.9714593

>>9714578

Those are the people I am betting against.
DYOR on those comments and you will see that most is fud.

For example:

> Indeed, if you check for Daniel Larimer messages on steemit you can see a comment where he says that all the money from the ICO are the profits of block one. They sold the tokens as utility tokens, not as an investment tool. And the terms and conditions were very clear about this too.

Ok lets check Dan's comments on steem:

https://steemit.com/@dantheman/comments

> Minor correction, the final terms of the EOS sale reserved 10% to block.one to keep interests aligned with community as a result of community feedback that selling 100% would be undesirable.

If you are not willing to see this FUD you are part of the problem.

>>9714588

EOS even has a MEW version called Scatter

>> No.9714598

>>9714593

Actually I meant Metamask version, not MEW

>> No.9714621

>>9714588
iOS does not mean mass adoption, it means the twitter normies will use it to try to transfer their coins to binance to panic sell. and the people who actually want to participate in the network and vote will be left holding their dicks.

>> No.9714676

>>9714593

>you are not willing to see this FUD you are part of the problem.

IF YOU ARE NOT WILLING TO SEE THAT THIS CONSENSUS ALGORITHIM IS A MEME
YOU ARE PART OF THE PROBLEM


21 block producers and whales buying themselves votes is not decentralized.

it's not any more fundamentally different than the the banking system who can easily invalid and freeze our transactions.

you totally missed the whole point of distributed systems. i feel sorry for you and anyone putting money into this garbage

>> No.9714716

>>9714676

You are caring about fundamentals, while you should care about market driving forces. If decentralization and cartelization where a problem then why is ripple #3 by market cap percentage? If fundamentals and not market forces where at force here then why is Monero not one of the top 10 coins? Why does actual doge meme coin have a market cap of 400 mil $ and how the hell is Verge in the top 50? Because market forces, not fundamentals. Its only a matter of hours before we'll see if I am right.

>> No.9714726

>>9714716

because people are retarded and blinded by greed, and they will eventually pay the high price for their idiocy.

>> No.9714732

>>9714716
when the erc20 token is frozen and the ABPs are struggling to get 15% of the votes in, that's when your market forces are really going to kick in

>> No.9714739

>>9714726

And that is not a market driving factor??? Wake up.

>> No.9714784

>>9714739

YES ITS CALLED BEHAVIORAL FINANCE. it exists.

how many people do you know a tech savvy enough to read and write their a computer programming language

how many people do you know can dissect a financial statement??

and yes 9/10 people chase pumps and sell the bottom.

>> No.9714806

>>9713604
Yes, but where ARE the solutions?

>> No.9714807
File: 42 KB, 1280x720, maxresdefault.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
9714807

>>9714739

>And that is not a market driving factor??? Wake up.

https://investorjunkie com/24423/behavioral-finance/

>> No.9714849
File: 5 KB, 225x225, oi.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
9714849

>>9714784
>>9714807

> MFW learned something new today

Thanks anon, 12 pages, see you in an hour.

> https://www.investopedia.com/university/behavioral_finance/

So, I definitely think I get behavioral finance in some brainlet way.
Instead of fundamentals you chase the greed, and that is where you take your profits.
You can accumulate for any fundamental project later on....with more capital and be safer in the longterm.

>> No.9714855

>>9714806
You have side chains like FunFair which run fast on centralized servers, but then verify on the blockchain. They call it fate channels.

ETH is doing scalability the slow way. I rather have a robust foundation with ETH, than quicksand like EOS, which is faster from the get go but sacrifices decentralization in the long run.

>> No.9715071
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9715071

>>9714806
>>9714849

> MFW I spend an entire summer reading Kahneman and Tversky, NN Taleb and Popper and all these terms and theories aren't new to me. Just the name is. Behavioral Finance is definitely more legit and profitable than following meme lines.

>> No.9715075
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9715075

>>9715071

>> No.9715147

>>9712819
this

>> No.9715247
File: 157 KB, 1440x2560, Screenshot_20180602-115704.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
9715247

>>9713663

> this is fine

>> No.9715664

LMAO. He is fucking pumping EOS.

>> No.9715676
File: 134 KB, 1200x1200, fgf.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
9715676

>>9712134
lmao they made the annoying fan into a real thing

>> No.9715702 [DELETED] 
File: 155 KB, 1892x1048, 13465899.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
9715702

>>9715676

At least 25% of these shorts are now underwater.

>> No.9715995

>>9712733
>using the technology
>on a cryptocurrency that isn't released yet
>when you don't need the token to use the network
this must make sense somehow but i'm missing it

>>9714806
signatures and state channels are working right this moment
loom network's dpos sidechains will be released to the public this month
so much of /biz/ confuses the common developer learning curve with a supposed inherent ceiling to the underlying technology

>> No.9716028

>>9712733
Holy kek you don't even know what the token is for

>> No.9716115

>>9712185
Underrated comment

>> No.9716128

>>9712475
eth and eos are fucked if ICO regulations are enacted. All main devs will end in jail for fraud

>> No.9716136
File: 27 KB, 645x729, complete_brainlet.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
9716136

>>9713337
>monero is stupid because its only private and does nothing else

>> No.9716163
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9716163

Help an ETH bagholder out, does this mean ETH is gonna crash? I have a large portion of ETH on Bittrex, what is the best action I could take rightnow?

>> No.9716193

>>9716163

Swap into BTC if you don't want any risks here. It's unlikely for ETH/BTC to moon, quite likely for ETH/BTC to drop though. Swap back after ETH dipped on the ratio.

>> No.9716194

I have bought 3000 EOS. When the moon comes I will come to biz and laugh at every fucker that didn't believe in this project

>> No.9716253

>>9716194
Keep buying high, I'm sure that'll work out

>> No.9716283
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9716283

>>9716194
>EOS holders unironically believe this

>> No.9716331

>>9712134
>couldn't get the right sergey shirt
good luck pajeets.

>> No.9716462

So launch holders don't even have a token to sell, there funds are frozen will this asshole is free to snatch up a huge profit? also I thought Jesus was coming on June 1 to make them all millionaires..what a cuckling Eosidiots are about to receive

>> No.9716728

Holding through the freeze see you on the other side eosmarines

>> No.9716739
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9716739

>> No.9716776
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9716776

>> No.9716815
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9716815

I own some EOS that I'm planning to dump soon.

This entire project is an overhyped meme

>Muh tx/s
>Muh Dan Larimer

This shit has none of the benefits of decentralization, and none of the benefits of centralization. It's a weird middle ground between the two, making it have very little reason to be used by anyone. EOS has the tx/s but at an extremely high cost making it a moot fucking point.

>Muh voting out bad block producers

You think people are going to care enough to vote, when pieces of shit like John McCain, Nancy Pelosi, and Hillary Clinton were elected time and time again after continuously blasting us all in the ass? You think that if a bad block producer gets voted out, another bad one won't just replace it? Zuckerberg is still hailed as some kind of hero despite blasting billions of people in the ass on a daily basis. If you actually believe that cartels won't form and that some EOS kingpin won't control the network I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you.

>> No.9716823

>>9716462
lol we're all about to get rich. DYOR retard. EOS will be #1 next year.

Locked tokens on june 1st is all part of the plan. It's supposed to get locked so the real EOS blockchains can launch.

>> No.9716833

Hello cucks, I see that you are talking about how EOS can be shut down due to the fact that there are only 21 active block producers, you seem to forget that there are 100 back-up block producers that can get instantly voted in to replace a block producer that gets shut down.

>> No.9716844

>>9716815
Votes are stake weighted.
It's not normie democracy.

>> No.9716858

>>9716844
Even worse, whales and cartels can more easily vote to keep themselves in control

>> No.9716861

>>9716815
>You think people are going to care enough to vote
lol if I own $100k of EOS, you can be sure I'm gonna vote so my $100k dosen't transform into 0.

And guess what, only the people who own a lot's votes actually count. So people who's vote counts, are actually incntavized to vote... damn it's almost as if smarter people than you have already thought about these problems....

you're a fucking low IQ moron who missed out and you will stay poor.

>> No.9716872

>>9716163
Buy EOS

>> No.9716888

>>9716858
>Even worse, whales and cartels can more easily vote to keep themselves in control
that's a problem with literally every coin/fiat, and this problem is way worse on POW coins like bitcoin.

bitcoin solves this problem better than fiat, and EOS solves this problem better than bitcoin.

Fucking low IQ faggot BTFO

>> No.9716890

>>9716823
Whats your $EOY ?

>> No.9716902

>>9716861
Bro I bought 5,000 EOS between $1 and $3, it's been a fun ride but I'm going to dump it during the main net launch because gullible retards are willing to baghold.

Enjoy my bags

>> No.9716920

>>9716888
You sound very angry and emotional. You didn't marry your precious coin, did you? Sounds like I struck some sort of nerve and your cognitive dissonance is showing.

>> No.9716940

>>9716902
There's no delusion. I understand the tech perfectly. I've a dev and been working with Eth and EOS for a while.

I know for a fact it's going to #1.

Whereas you're just some low IQ trader/gambler who understands nothing about the tech.

>> No.9716957

>>9716858
>whales and cartels
one year long ico with market determined price was for a reason. way less whales because everyone had a chance to buy, and bulk purchases just drove up the price. game theory nigger.

>> No.9716967
File: 412 KB, 964x995, PONZI.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
9716967

>>9712134
it was Vitalik, he have more, mach more!

>> No.9716980

>>9716902
that's retarded. with 5000 coins you are in line for some juicy airdrops. EOSDAC airdrop is trading at 15 cents. that's $750 worth of free tokens for holding your EOS. now imagine if there are 100 airdrops coming, valued at even just 10 cents per coin, that's $500 dollars per airdrop. you're practically giving away free money

>> No.9717137

>>9716980
That's all discounted in the price now oc
Let him sell. Maybe someone can get a lambo out of it.

>> No.9717398

>>9714421
1. Good point.

2. There are about 3 nodes in BTC and ETH, not 1,000,000. 21 > 3

On paper, there are as many as people running computers. But in reality there are not. There are FEWER than EOS with 21.

3. One single bug makes it "half-baked"? You're conflating that one issue for multiple.

4. It's so they aren't technically a security.

>> No.9717427
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9717427

>whats this weasels end-game?

Same endgame as anyone that ever did an altcoin: steal Bitcoin from noobs wanting to x100 their coins

>> No.9717451
File: 463 KB, 1545x744, bitcoin nodes.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
9717451

>>9717398
>There are about 3 nodes in BTC
kys

>> No.9717490

>>9717451
the nodes on your map have less power than stake holders of EOS.

They are meme nodes with no power, other than voting for one of the 3 big mining pool.

>> No.9717556

>>9717490
I smell cope

>> No.9717591

>>9717490
>They are meme nodes with no power, other than voting for one of the 3 big mining pool.
That's like saying states don't have power because they joined a federation.

>> No.9717631

>>9712134
Please tell me this pic is doctored. Otherwise, you guys are investing your life savings in someone with down syndrome.

>> No.9717877

BGD incoming

> https://medium.com/eosio/the-eosio-developer-portal-is-live-f7018e606f48

>> No.9717888

>>9717631
That is the new King of /biz/. Go wash your mouth out, you ignorant peon.

>> No.9718864

>>9712431
You understand that bitshares uses the same codebase as EOS and Dan could have built right on top of bitshares.

>> No.9718881

hes unironically a monk

>> No.9719303

>>9713740
Don't forget the Chas jawline surgery