/biz/ - Business & Finance

[Anonymous No.950367]

What's /biz/ stance on a union?

I work at a hotel and a union is trying to come in, is there any real benefits?

[Anonymous No.950369]

>>950367
If your in a positiom where there is a union, join it. Or else they will push you out for being anti-establishment. Ironic isnt it?

[Anonymous No.950374]

>>950367
it's harder to fire you and the boss is less likely to fuck you over, as in with irregular payments, unnecessary punishments or discriminating you.

join one if you can. it might cost a bit to be a member, but then you'll have thousands of other people's support.

[Anonymous No.950390]

>>950367

Under the assumption that you're part of the low wage staff at the hotel, you would be a moron not to join one.

[Anonymous No.950398]

>>950390
I work front desk and i have a great wage >inb4wageslave and benefits that i actually need and use.

But even those who clean or whatever are opposing it

[Anonymous No.950400]

I used to be anti-union. At some point, I think unions were really just mobs of people trying to control another persons' business for their own benefit. I don't think that is the case today because most people are too stupid, and most industries have changed.

It's undeniable that people who are in unions are treated with more respect, earn more money, and work less. I don't give a fuck what anyone says, I've worked in plenty of union and non-union factories.

Example:
Steel Facility 1 - Non-Union - $13.50/hour, 48 hours a week, unpaid lunch, no vacation time, no breaks other than lunch. Talked down to every day.

Steel Facility 2 - Union - $23.90/hour - 40 hours a week, first 30 minutes and last 30 minutes of shift was chill, paid lunch, 2 small breaks, things seemed slower but more work was done (higher caliber of workers), 2 weeks vacation, 1 month of unemployment and union support pay during layoff (which was a big paid vacation), not treated like shit.

Thats been how it is. I once knew a lady that was "fired" after 2 weeks off after her step-son died, Heinz (Ketchup), fired her and said her bereavement didn't included step children. Union said fuck that, stood up for her, and she came back after 2 weeks. Heinz fired 2 people the next day that were non-union because they had hired them 2 days after the union worker informed them that she wanted some time off to grieve.

Unions make more sense when you realize that a bunch of people who have never really worked a day in their life don't simply Not care about you, but actually look down upon you, and hate you.

[Anonymous No.950405]

>>950398
Thats because they slaves in the real sense of the word. If they work super hard, and side with their Masters on issues (even ones that prevent them of taking care of themselves and their families), then their Masters will have more respect for them.

It doesn't work like that, but its not something slaves understand.

[Anonymous No.950408]

>>950400
I think unions are good for shitty workers in badly run companies. If you're a good worker and you have quality management you're better without one.

Unions cost money--is your job missing anything right now? Benefits, overtime pay? Or will a union cost you more in dues than it yields?

cost benefit analysis

[Anonymous No.950416]

>>950398
>I work front desk and i have a great wage

>Hotel receptionist
>Great wage

I think you're delusional.

[Anonymous No.950418]

Dues are pretty low. The figure I posted above was $23.90 after dues, compared to $13.50 being non-union.

Like you, I believed in the mentality that if I was a really good worker, I would stand out, I would gain respect from management who were for some reason looking for leaders among the lower rung workers, and I would then reach some financial level where I could take care of myself and my family, and the company would offer me very competitive benefits.

Wrong. That is not how it works.

Management, even at amazing companies, have little interest in anything but optimizing their workers for provide more for less. That is how they impress their superiors, which is their job security. That is how they move up into the positions of their superiors.

Smarter workers join unions because there is nothing worse than being a problem solving worker bee willing to put in overtime and Not moving up within a company - simply for an executives nephew to come in and become your boss within a couple months and make twice as much as you do. These people join unions where more people are like-minded, and more things get done, and there are less issues which equates to less stress.

Of course, anti-union people, like I used to be, stress how someone should take pride in not being union because unions are full of lazy people that "need" to be union to have jobs.

[Li_Sheng !n54GAoW8Vs No.950561]

It depends on the power dynamics at play. and the quality of the union contracts. Better more productive workers is generally good, provided the market can support such and efficiency threshold. Artificial wage increases create a distortion inefficiency that must be filled by growth in excess of the inefficiency.
Unions also sap Free Cash Flow which is the only mechanism by which capital expenditures happen.
That said efficiency is not the same as efficacy. Unions typically side towards the latter. Which generally has excellent long term consequences.

However should the contract become to strong that elimination of inefficiency is not a concern you can break the system. A key example would be the teacher's unions in new york. wherein child molesters and child abusers cannot be fired until their court cases are concluded and those often take years.

[Anonymous No.950576]

Unions are fucked, but only if you're not in one.
>working as a laborer for my dad (electrician)
>large complex construction site
>my dad is wiring some garden lighting
>I'm digging trenches
>builder hired us because it was a quick job that needed to get done before something else
>another electrician sees us
>tells us to leave because we're not union
>lolno.jpg
>he calls union rep
>union rep comes onto site
>tells us in no uncertain terms to "fuck off"
I don't think dad got paid either

[Anonymous No.950590]

Because of the union regulations here, I had to join in order to work the gig I set up. It was a one day shoot and I showed up at 6AM and was finished by noon.
For this I got paid $50,000 over the next 5 years.

[Anonymous No.950615]

A good union is a godsend, but unfortunately none seem to get a good middle ground, they either seem to be useless or bordering on racketeering.

I'm all for workers rights but I think I the maritime and construction unions here are constantly trying for huge pay rises each year along with plenty of benefits, they are already paid well do they ever consider that maybe there is a chance they could price themselves out of the market, remember there are millions of people in africa and other poor countries that are willing to work for $2 a day.

[Anonymous No.950633]

>>950400
Guess who tanks first in the event of a moderate recession.

I work at a nonunion car parts manufacturer. 2008 was a rough year and all the temps were laid off. Remember what happened to GM? Without that government bailout they were dead.

All of the Union manufacturers in my town have gone under.

Unions are a necessary evil but when they secure a positive working environment for the little guy, their job is done.

[Anonymous No.951128]

>>950367
A contributor to outsourcing.

Also, sometimes unionized workers will actively try to push non-union workers out of work.

I think that they should be broken up if they grow too strong, like america used to do with monopolies. They're pretty good for whoever is in them, though.

[Anonymous No.951135]

Unions are drastically better than not being in a union.

A union is simply the workers teaming up and saying to the boss, "we are going to collectively bargain for the best pay and treatment".

There is almost nothing wrong with them.

The only people who hate them are extreme capitalists and entrepeneurs

[Anonymous No.951136]

>>950367
Unions are good until they criss the line with unreasonable demands, then they'really just a mob no better than the evils they were established to fight against.

[Anonymous No.951183]

It depends on the union, and on the management.

I think unions often turn nasty when they become a big national affair, putting more decisions on detached national leadership instead of a responsive local run by the workers.

[Anonymous No.951226]

>>950367
Unions are great if you're in the union. For everyone else, it sucks. It is a monopoly on labor enforced in part by the government and in part by the corporation.

[Anonymous No.951379]

>>951135
>The only people who hate them are extreme capitalists and entrepeneurs
No wonder I hate them.
But I prefer entrepreneur.

[Anonymous No.952848]

Eventually public sector unions are going to bankrupt every city and state in America. I don't give a fuck what private sector unions do.

[Anonymous No.952849]

>>951136
You mean like democracy?

[Anonymous No.952957]

Unions are necessary evil in a capitalistic society, but an absolute cancer in socialistic society. I live in Ontario & the public teachers here get paid shit tons (easily close to 100k) but they keep on striking saying how their salary isn't enough, amongst with other fantastic benefits they get. It's the never ending cycle of 'pay me more or your children won't learn anything' baka

Fuck this province desu senpai

[Anonymous No.952978]

>>950367

Unions give the average worker the strength of thousands when it comes to negotiating salary, pension, healthcare and other benefits.

In the US, I have heard about people loosing money and benefits from joining one, because their employers gave them very good terms to begin with. But that is extremely rare. More often it is the workers that are not in a union that get fucked over the most: no overtime pay, no benefits, low wages, "mistakes" when it comes to payout of salary etc etc etc

If a unionized workplace tries to make "mistakes" when it comes to salaries, the strength of thousands of workers can unite in strikes and to finance lawyers that fuck them over right back.

However, it can lead to laziness. But non-unionized people can be lazy as well.. So there is that.

[Anonymous No.953051]

>>950408
>If you're a good worker and you have quality management you're better without one.

Yeah, if you think there's such a thing as "quality management" you're delusional. Management is shit wherever you go. For every Henry Ford (who believed in paying his workers as *MUCH* as possible) there are going to be thousands of exploitative assholes who do blatantly illegal shit and fuck their workers over as much as they can.

Management is NOT made up of super-quality people who work hard and know best. It's made up of the same kind of boobs who would get called "lazy" if they were working as labor.

[Anonymous No.953123]

>>952848
This.
Private sector unions are sometimes necessary, as they can help correct imbalances in the labor equation. This does not, of course, stop them from "killing the golden goose", if they gain sufficient power.
Public sector unions are a massive conflict of interest: the "goose" cannot be killed, as it is the public treasury, and horribly corrupt arrangements between union and political leadership follow.

[Anonymous No.953170]

>>951128
>unions too strong
>anywhere near as powerful as the abusive businesses we're allowing

[Anonymous No.953178]

>>950398
lol have fun with your $12 an hour and """"""loyalty"""""""

[Anonymous No.953192]

>>953051
I worked as a short term contractor for an engineering firm that was given lots of government contracts for a local shipyard. At least 75% of the people who worked for that company had worked at the shipyard, and to a letter they all said they would never willingly go back.

The union there encouraged laziness, because it almost only promoted based on seniority, and it was impossible to get cross department work done. Private firm came along and poached the best people, offered them better salaries, enormous freedom to set their own hours, and hired management that had extensive knowledge of the topics. The people there were paid probably 50-80% more than the union shop but were at least twice as productive.

You can have quality management, and quality non union workers. They just have to be self motivated and actually good at their jobs. Unions are universally substandard, lazy, and anti progress. No wonder they get shit on when you take away the cushions.

[Anonymous No.953196]

unions destroy everything. they're terrorist thugs.

jobs should be merit based, easy come easy go. unions want everything to rot away from mediocrity and be destroyed, like in Detroit.

[Anonymous No.953203]

>>953196
You're retarded. Come back with arguments that make actual sense and aren't just "x eats babies and worships Satan and slashes old ladies' tires for fun."

[Anonymous No.953207]

>>953192
>Unions are universally substandard, lazy, and anti progress.

That's funny, because the union I'm in works with my employer to ensure the opposite of that happens. We have a thing in the union contract called "ability and aptitude" which allows the company to retain people outside of seniority rank during layoffs because they have "ability and/or aptitude". If you bust your ass as a labourer you're going to get retained over another labourer who was there before you. Similarly, they can also choose to selectively pay people more because of "ability and/or aptitude". The union has to approve of all retention and raises based on this so the company uses it sparingly.

In the end, it works out. The company can keep the workers it needs while the union keeps a lid on guys getting canned because they're too senior/expensive.

The union also works with the company on efficiency, allowing fewer workers to do more. We had a worker just recently find and recommend a product that allowed a finishing step to go from four hours to one. I've personally recommended changes that allowed a process to go from two man hours a day (four guys for 30min) to five minutes for one guy.

We've had other unions try to raid us (get 50% +1 to switch unions) and get slapped down by the combined efforts of the union, workers and management. NOBODY wanted a change. Contract negotiations resemble cavemen bashing each other with clubs, but the contracts are always approved by 70% majorities.

[Anonymous No.953231]

>>950367
I'm against public / government unions. Private unions are at will choice of the person of receiving higher benefits at the risk of job security.

[Anonymous No.953249]

Unions would work if we had higher tariffs allowing greater competition with lesser-paid foreign markets. But raising tariffs could have negative effects like causing other countries to do the same.

I've seen many left-wing nostalgists long for the days when America's law was littered with New Deal policies and the workforce was industrial and unionized, but not many people understand why it worked so well. After WWII, America became an economic titan while the rest of the world was in ashes or just wasn't developed. As Europe was in reconstruction, their economy was still very poor and reliant on American aid, goods, and currency under the Bretton-Woods system.

As Europe and the rest of the world became more developed, our economy began to show signs of weakness. Countries abused Bretton Woods to extract gold from the federal reserve, which had significantly overprinted. This eventually lead to Nixon disposing of the system.

As our fiat currency spiraled into oblivion and we were forced to compete with foreign companies, the strength our economy once had was failing. We increasingly began to rely on products from China and other eastern nations, since our own had become too expensive to produce under unionized industry.

[Anonymous No.953275]

>>950418
I feel the same. I know some unions can be abusive, UAW in a way comes to mind. That said, it's the the lesser evil vs a manager who pushes unpaid overtime just because he can, especially to the bootlickers who think they'll get special favors for doing so.

[Anonymous No.953280]

>>950615
>or bordering on racketeering
Reminds me of a documentary I saw on the Mafia a few years ago. They had their hands in the local unions and would extort construction companies by threatening to make their workers picket if they didn't.

[Anonymous No.953281]

>>953192
>the union I was in sucked so they all suck

[Anonymous No.953430]

>>953281
I've worked at plenty of different places with unions. Only 2, maybe 3, were at all useful for anything other than pissing me off.

While I'm on the topic of bad unions. The worst I've ever had to deal with by a landslide are teacher's unions. In one case I couldn't get access to the schools network because the printers were on it, and printer usage was a secretarial job or some shit like that. I spent 2 weeks in a pissing contest trying to get permission to access physical hardware that I was contractually obligated to upgrade/replace. By the end of it, a week long job took 3 months, and the school was without a functioning intranet for 9 days because I couldn't get access to a wiring closet to replace a bricked switch. They couldn't even do attendance, and all their security cameras were down.

Oh, and they sent a lawyer out to threaten my girlfriend while I was on site.

On the bright side, I got paid 80 hours per week for 13 weeks, the majority of which I spent catching up on reading and teaching myself a new programming language.

In general, teacher's unions have been nothing but cancer to deal with. I've got nothing against teachers, and in most of the US they are treated exceptionally poorly, but their unions are some of the most uncooperative silver spoon sucking cunts in the universe. I have no experience with auto unions, but I cannot imagine that it's possible to be worse than working with teacher's unions.

[Anonymous No.953496]

>>950374
The flip side to this is the union itself. When shit goes south, or not as smoothly, anyone low on the totem pole is fucked. Unions only protect the seasoned worker.

>>950390
this

[Anonymous No.953519]

As a libertarian and a business owner, I say this, you'd be retarded to not join the union.

Before I started my own business, I worked for several other big companies, and the shit I saw there was just humiliating and down right illegal, but it never gets reported, and when it did, literally no one cared and nothing was done.

I've seen people get fired because upper managers just didn't like them, I've seen management tell people to do blatantly illegal things and then fire them when they refused or fired them after something fucked up and they used the employee as a scapegoat.

I also saw several cases of people getting fired so that some low level managers son or niece could get a job.

I've seen interns come in every new semester, many are tongue in cheek promised a job, but are then told no at the end of the semester. The business just uses them as a revolving door of free labor

I worked at one company that would fire employees to make their bottom line look better and then rehire new people at the end of the quarter.

Then you get a C suite that is so disconnected from the business that you wonder if they even know what the company does. They set unrealistic expectations at every level of employment. Think of it like trickle down, but it's corporate piss that is trickling down.

Unions are a net negative to a business, but they are a net negative that balances out the net negative of poor management.

All of these big corporations are complaining about unions hurting them, but they made the first strike by treating their employees like expendable shit.

Bad unions are created to counteract bad management, and then it turns into an escalation of who can fuck the other over the most. Hostess is a perfect example of the most extreme case of this.

[Anonymous No.953536]

There is a union push where i work.


I was anti union but ive come arround.


When management lies to you, with out a union there is no repercussion. With a union labor has the ability to make a stand aganst managment.


Now. Unions are also prone to corruption and becoming as big a problem as managment.


In my case we are working a job that was billed as a 3/2/2/3 schedule. With occasional voluntary over time.


Turns out , it is actually forced over time, 12hr shifts. So you wind up working 6/1 for 12 hr shifts. And has been this way gor 18 months.

On top of that, we are only allowed 5 points, ever. The only way to remove points is 2 months of perfect service, ( there is no time clock allowance, and only 2 clocks, people litterly fight to clock in and out on time, or else catch a half point)
no sick days,
no flex time,
only 1 week of vacation a year, and you can only take it in small blocks based on seniority.

And people are fired arbitrarily.


With a union a lot of that would change.


Unfortunately, what everyone doesnt realize is that if the facility unionized the company will loose its contract. ( wharehouse that has a contract with a major conumer product company) but the goal is that a realiatic threat of union will cause changes

[Anonymous No.953539]

>>950367
People love to complain that unions are just in it for the money but as others have said, it's almost always worth the dues you'll have to pay. I've worked a number of jobs, some union, some not, and I've always had a better experience at a union place.

The first job I ever had was a unionized grocery store. I started at 14 and was making $13/hour by 18. I'm from Canada and minimum wage at the time was $10/hour. On top of that, I got paid breaks for every 2 hours of work and paid lunch for every 4. And of course shifts were given out based on seniority, so by the end I basically got to choose my schedule. I didn't know how good I had it until I left.

No other job I worked, until after university, did I ever receive above minimum wage, despite my experience and work ethic. Breaks and lunches were always cut short and were unpaid. One place I worked refused to listen to my requests for little hours during the school week. Instead the boss booked me 30+ hours every week and told me to deal with it or leave. It didn't last long there. You'd never deal with crap like that with a union. It was worth the few dollars each week.

[Anonymous No.953856]

>>953430
>I got paid 80 hours per week for 13 weeks
And this is why there's no real complaints.
The person inconvenienced gets paid far more than they should have, because red tape takes forever, so they don't care.
The people in the union are getting paid an inflated wage, so they don't care.
The people running the business are passing the costs along, so they don't care either.
The only people getting screwed are the consumers, and they don't have any one to complain to (who give a fuck, that is).

[Anonymous No.953870]

Most issues that people have with unions could be solved if union members got off their asses, went to union meetings and told the thugs that ran them to fuck off.

[Anonymous No.954063]

>>953856
You think they wanted to pay me for that? I had to file a claim in court.

Either way, I'd still rather do my work in a timely fashion. I even get efficiency bonuses when I'm contracting through the one company.

[Anonymous No.954082]

I just work for the highest bidder, which happens to be a Union. A lot of the guys feel the same way I do, not for or against it.

[Anonymous No.954103]

>>954063
>You think they wanted to pay me for that?
Not at all.
I was saying that, because of the union bullshit, a job that should have taken what, a couple weeks?, took 13.
It's an inconvenience to you (b/c it took so long), but a compensated one (paid for 13 weeks).
So if you do wind up complaining, it would be that the unions are incompetent, not that you got screwed.

[Anonymous No.954109]

As some others said, unions are good for employees if the management team needs to be checked (they're Jewing you on salary or OT, they're unnecessarily yelling at you or making the working conditions unreasonably harsh, they're discriminating against you, etc.).

If your position is fine as is, then the fees will just be a waste of money.

[Anonymous No.954166]

>>954103
The union did in fact try to screw me. They tried to only pay me for 30 hours of work because that was "the estimate" so I took them to court. They settled out of court within hours of receiving my summons because their lawyers apparently realized how utterly fucked they would be if I showed up with a veritable novel's worth of email hard copies of them stonewalling all of my attempts to actually do stuff.

If it was just union incompetence and I got paid no questions asked, I'd still be bitching about how grotesquely inefficient they are, but I wouldn't actively despise their parasitic existence.

[Anonymous No.954191]

>>954166

Dude, you're a contractor. AKA "Scab Mk.2". No shit you had problems.

Places that don't take the adversarial approach to labor relations (AKA, the rest of the developed world) don't have the problems with unions you are facing.

[Anonymous No.954193]

>>954166
>tried to only pay me for 30 hours of work because that was "the estimate"
What a bunch of shitbags.

[Anonymous No.954195]

>>950367

>unions are like insurance but they choose your coverage

[Anonymous No.954206]

>>954191
>Meanwhile in France unions have taken people hostage, thrown riots and trashed entire facilities.

If you say so.

[Anonymous No.954239]

>>954206
>single data point
>ignores conflicting evidence

And you're still a scab.

[Anonymous No.954291]

>>954239
>He provided a direct counterexample that invalidates my point.
>Better call him names.

The point was that there's plenty of examples of unions shitting places up outside of the US. Even Canada has had enormous shitfests with them violently protesting dumb shit. Or do you not remember 2007-2009 when the economy was tanking and things really got bad?

As an aside, you seem to be implying that being a scab is a bad thing. If you are actually any good at a skilled job and willing to work independently, you get paid far more.

[Anonymous No.954509]

>>954291

He provided an anecdote and is ignoring the entire country of GERMANY where unions sit on the company board.

[Anonymous No.954530]

>>954509
So do you think countries like France, Canada, Finland, Norway, the UK, etc aren't part of the developed world then?

>Places that don't take the adversarial approach to labor relations (AKA, the rest of the developed world) don't have the problems with unions you are facing.

You're the one who made a bullshit claim.

[Anonymous No.954534]

>>954530
>Hyperbole is lost on me.

Yes, yes it is.

Also, the presence of militant union/company relations does not preclude the existence of cooperative union/company.

[Anonymous No.954649]

>>954534
>I was only pretending to be retarded.

[Anonymous No.956000]

OP if the workers unionize we will have to close the branch.

[Anonymous No.956018]

>>953207
if unions want to run a business, they should quit, pool their money, and start a god damn business.

UNions are a bunch of terrorists. They don't own the business. They threaten the owner with a strike or other action in order to get what they want.

[Anonymous No.957311]

>>954649
>Whoops, his generalization may not have been meant literally.
>Better call him names

So glad to hear you're not above perjuring yourself.

[Anonymous No.957409]

>>956018
If the owner valued his labor force they would not unionize