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8570583 No.8570583 [Reply] [Original]

Bitcoin maximalist here AMA

>> No.8570617

>>8570583

sooooo щe бyтaмe ли дъpжaвaтa или нe ?

>> No.8570629

>>8570617
I just got it from Google m8

>> No.8570676

bitcoin is shitcoin, as it is not fungible.

only crypto that will make it is the fungible one.

>> No.8570730

>>8570676
Drivechain will enable Monero as a sidechain to Bitcoin.

>> No.8570740

>>8570583
When did you realize you were gay?

>> No.8570748

>>8570740
I am actually not

>> No.8570812

I distinguish between two varieties of BTC maximalism.
The first simply states that BTC will continue to function as the native reserve asset of the entire crypto space, and continue the Keynesian beauty contest dynamic of being the strongest store of value. I think this is true.
The second variety is the belief that the BTC chain can and should be the basis of all crypto protocols and services, implemented torturously as pegged sidechains, drivechains, coloured coins etc. I think this is beyond delusional and I laugh heartily in the face of anyone who thinks this will seriously happen.

>> No.8570872

>>8570812
Yeah, I tend to agree and I've always been a bitcoin maximalist of the first variety. I don't think crypto can survive without Bitcoin surviving. It's time-tested and has the hashing power of a medium-sized country securing it.

>> No.8570964

>>8570812
It's already happening. LN is live on mannet, RSK mainnet beta is out, Monero is joining on MimbleWimble development, and everyone is working. You act like there's some like there's some kind of competition?

>> No.8570988

>>8570872
Crypto can't survive with Bitcoin surviving either. Crypto is dying.

>> No.8571049

>>8570617
e кaк нe

>> No.8571072

>>8570812

I agree with the first also. The digital gold meme may actually be true.

>> No.8571103

>>8570583
So you believe bitcoin will be world reserve currency? I do. Its just difficult to grasp, sometimes

>> No.8571107

>>8570964
I need to read the RSK whitepaper already. I thought the stated intention of Monero’s MimbleWimble development was to implement it as a sidechain on Monero itself? Poelstra gave up long ago on getting BTC integration, and decided to go it alone; if GRIN succeeds I still can’t see it being used on BTC. Monero has regular hardforks so they can do whatever they want, whereas BTC needs full cooperation of miners to do anything.

>> No.8571111

>>8571103
It doesn't even have to be world reserve currency for it to go 100k, all it has to do is replace 10% of assets in offshore accounts.

>> No.8571129

>>8571103
It'll also be the only coin left, the basis of a new infrastructure, and the foundation of a decentralized revolution.

>> No.8571164

>>8570812
>>8570872
Agree but my paranoid self worries about the following: when the crypto market absorbs the forex/securities market, which countries will demonize and fight it?

>> No.8571174

Bitcoin CASH

>> No.8571199

Drivechain is complete farce and pipe dream.

Crypto currency without cryptographic anonymity proof is useless.

Only purpose of bitcoin is to buy shitcoin. Shitcoin that has anonymity or some specialized one.

BTC is a cash out token. Cash money in hand does more than BTC.

>> No.8571210

>>8571107
>I thought the stated intention of Monero’s MimbleWimble development was to implement it as a sidechain on Monero itself?
No, silly. Monero will join Bitcoin as a sidechain to strengthen the Bitcoin protocol and weaken alts that damage the environment. Monero never belonged among any of the altcoins.

>> No.8571223

>>8571111
>>8571129
In 2031 a coffe in berlin will be one satoshi
Either that or a monthly subscription to the place will be a satoshi

>> No.8571233

>>8571164
Too late for that. Szabo is already working with investment bankers to put financial instruments on the blockchain.

>> No.8571294

>>8571223
this is why BTC will fail. only 8 decimals. master race ETH has 18 and anticipated this problem.

>> No.8571298

>>8571210
Source? That’s not what I’ve read in any of the Monero research proposals.

>> No.8571300

>>8571199
If you followed the landscape, you'd know Riccardo Spagni and Blockstream work together against the alts market

>> No.8571371

>>8571300

You are a moron.

The alts are the reason BTC was pumped.

The alts are the solution to the scaling problem.

You don't have 1 planet sized creature. You have 100 billion small creatures.

And finally just consider this. Who wins if BTC is the only chain ? The people ? or the BTC speculators ?

Competition is what guarantees fair trade. BTC is dead, its only purpose is settlement lair for the exchanges. And the objective of the exchanges is the ALTS.

BTC is model A ford. It will be worth something in 50 - 100 years

>> No.8571404
File: 68 KB, 700x523, 2018-03-26-211759_700x523_scrot.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
8571404

>>8571298
Why would they announce it in a research proposal? It's a fairly recent unofficial proposal and people already talking about it e.g. https://www.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/71d11b/monero_as_a_drivechain/

There's no other realistic alternative for Monero, and Monero team is a good team. They won't die, but they'll join Bitcoin

>> No.8571413

and... BTC dies when there are FIAT pairs for all the coins. That will be the end end of it.

>> No.8571436

>>8571371
That was painful to read. BTC scales via LN which is live on mainnet. Your post is dumb and you have no idea what's happening.

>> No.8571477

>>8571294
that sure is great that ETH anticipated a problem it will never have

would be better if they anticipated any of the hundreds of problems they did have over the last 3 years, DAO hack and hundreds of bugs locking money in smart contracts or even the recent one that allowed users to take unlimited ETH from coinbase were great

>> No.8571479

>>8571436

All I know is I do not want to OWN any BTC.

>> No.8571488

>>8570583
Will chainklink Moon?

>> No.8571495

>>8571477
Ethereum has been a scam from the beginning, and all it ever did was damage the space via ICOs. No premined scams will survive

>> No.8571514

>>8571479
No one cares bud, go buy some Nano

>> No.8571543

>>8571436
LN is a meme. It's useless as a scaling solution.

>> No.8571544

>>8571514

I am buying zcoin.

Go buy some beetkoins. Like 0.00000000000021 looks great.

>> No.8571551

>>8571488
Obviously not. Oracles will be sidechains to Bitcoin: http://bitcoinhivemind.com/

>> No.8571569

>>8571436

>implying BTC scales.
>thinking LN is the reason for scaling.

read the LN whitepaper bro, it even states they require 133mb blocks.

BTC isn't getting another hardfork buddy. No more upgrades until it becomes obsolete.
Miners can easily veto all changes and If another 'UASF' attempt occurs, that just means the BTC community splits once again, and where do you think a chunk of that hashing power will switch to?

There's only one other chain that uses the same Proof of work

>> No.8571695

Drivechain and other off-chain solutions are pipedreams. Satoshi envisioned a future in which everyone could be their own bank. That means having control of your funds. With LN you do not have control over your funds (you can in fact lose them very easily at the moment!).

In the distant future Bitcoin will be tamed by Forex, much like how they tamed silver and gold. This will make Bitcoin a good storage of wealth.

Monero will be the global cryptocurrency and any other non-private coin that wishes to survive will have to facilitate in on-chain atomic swaps with Monero to obtain their fungibility.

DNMs are rapidly adopting Monero and ditching Bitcoin and other cryptos. Merchant adoption for Bitcoin is shrinking as it is not a viable method of payment. Bitcoin obtains it's value mainly from it's anti-fragile nature and having the longest chain of all cryptocurrencies.

>> No.8571715

>>8571551
>>8571495
I’ve read that guy’s site in depth, in fact its my go-to example of the second type of maximalism.
BTC simply does not have the ability to coordinate upgrades that would allow trustless implementation of sidechains, and its ability to coordinate gets worse every year.
I think Ethereum has already established that ‘premine or no’, people will use it if the tech is there, and this empirical outcome trumps conjecture to the contrary.
I am sympathetic to arguments about BTC distribution being maximally ‘fair’, but to all but the early adopters, there is zero difference between a ‘fair distribution’ that they own none of, and a ‘premine scam’ that they own none of, so they will put their effort and capital into the one with the better technology and long term potential.

>> No.8571742

>>8571543
But anon, LN had 3 implementations, it's live on mainnet, and you can already use it e.g. http://otsproofbot.com:1880/otsproof

>> No.8571760

>>8571544
Zcoin is a joke much like any coin based on Zerocoin or Zerocash

>> No.8571794

>>8571569
>they require 133mb blocks.
>Bcash-tier understanding of tech
It's time to let it go

>> No.8571804

>>8571715
Similarly, arguments about proof of stake are subject to empirical Di’s confirmation. What happens when a highly capitalised PoS network successfully runs for years without being subject to long-range attacks? Because I believe it will happen, so get ready for that outcome.

In the end, the most straightforward solution in that event would be to airdrop tokens for whatever platform ends up demonstrating its technological superiority (I believe this will be Tezos) out of the reserve to BTC holders so the whales will shut up and stop trying to force round pegs into the square hole of BTC.

>> No.8571824

>>8571804
Autocorrect, should read: empirical disconfirmation

>> No.8571833

>>8571695
>Drivechain and other off-chain solutions are pipedreams. Satoshi envisioned a future in which everyone could be their own bank. That means having control of your funds. With LN you do not have control over your funds (you can in fact lose them very easily at the moment!).
LN deposit is your wallet when you spend money for small transcations. In case you didn't realise, the UTXO set for your balance is still stored on the blockchain

Also Monero and Bitcoin are in the same team. Few other coins as well i.e. the non-scam coins

>> No.8571924

>>8571833

Exactly what scammer would say.

hey hey hey, it is not a scam.

>> No.8572007

>>8571715
>BTC simply does not have the ability to coordinate upgrades that would allow trustless implementation of sidechains, and its ability to coordinate gets worse every year.
That's simply not true. The internet is built on TCP/IP and everyone thought it'll be impossible to build today's protocols. Same engineers are working on Bitcoin today, because it's the most important project happening right now. Also, Bitcoin has been coordinating better than ever recently.

> they will put their effort and capital into the one with the better technology and long term potential.
So obviously Bitcoin? There's no project on the "blockchain" with comparable dev power or VC funding. Vitalik already proved Ethereum cannot be trusted and their governance is broken.

>> No.8572079
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8572079

>>8571804
>Ethereum
>run successful for years
Come on anon. You're doubting Bitcoin, but you're defending the Ethereum mess?

>> No.8572132

>>8571924
Hmmm, this reminds me of what nocoiners said every year about Bitcoin

>> No.8572225

>>8572007
All the genius cryptographers in the world can’t make a difference unless they have the ability to push through upgrades, so their effort is wasted implementing Rube Goldberg schemes on top of BTC. What Bitmain wants, Bitmain gets.

The comparison to TCP/IP is telling. It’s a shitty protocol that is barely fit for purpose, shackled to old design decisions that can never be changed, BUT it was possible to successfully paper over its flaws through sheer brute bandwidth, enabling the advanced uses that we now have. No such mechanism is available to BTC.

>> No.8572333

>>8572079
Not what I said. Ethereum is fundamentally broken for different reasons, but the mechanism of technical debt is similar. Proof-of-Vitalik is obviously flawed.

I said to watch for a PoS network to run in the wild and successfully avoid attacks such as long-range blockchain attacks, because this would represent empirical disconfirmation of a conjectured weakness, and once those cards fall, the dynamic of the supposed necessity of a massive PoW scheme for security will change.

On-chain governance is coming, and it has the potential to avoid both proof-of-Vitalik chicanery, and the quagmire of miner-anarchism.

>> No.8572405

>>8571514
hahahahaha oh god you're right though
all these kids...
>buh buh but my nano is instant and feeless
it was a scam from the start and you got left holding bags kiddos
if you want instant and feeless buy iota

>> No.8572411

>>8570583

Hey me too.

>> No.8572478
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8572478

the Bitcoin Threat Model does a great job of dispelling all the myths around how bitcoin might fall or be displaced. It examines every conceivable threat to Bitcoin, including that of altcoins

well worth a read
http://btcthreats.com

>> No.8572508

I'm a tech maximalist. In the world of cryptocurrency, bitcoin is not the "best tech"... its the only tech. The one everyone copies, the one everyone wants to destroy, the one every other value is referenced from.

>> No.8572531

>>8572225
It just happens that both Bitmain and Core want the same thing: for Bitcoin to succeed. Ironically, if Szabo died, I would lose my faith in Bitcoin to succeed in any meaningful way. I am 100% convinced he was the one who spearheaded the opposition to block size, and he's the only one with the authority, integrity, and mental capacity to lead Bitcoin vision. Back when the block size debate was happening I remember him saying in an interview that this is a civil war with Gavin leading a 51% attack and Bitcoin will use all its security features to defend itself. I'm sure this is very stressful for him, and he's the trusted third party whose disappearance makes Bitcoin vulnerable to all the predators around bitcoin: Bitmain, alts, government, etc.

TCP/IP is a comparison that shows a worse case. I'm sure the Bitcoin ecosystem will thrive despite its challenges. There's quite a bit of funding, there are passionate people, and enough momentum to get this working.

>>8572333
Ethereum is the only coin that has any kind of traction and is supposed to go PoS. Any other shitcoin doing PoS is irrelevant. Dan Larimer has launched 3 dPoS shitcoins and no one cares. All serious devs go to Bitcoin. PoS won't change anything at all. It's too little too late. On chain governance is far, far away. DAOs are a joke. By the time we get there, everything will be on top of Bitcoin

>> No.8572630

>>8572478
>"Digital assets benfeit from network effects for adoption"
Yeah, like ICOs make the entire space look like scam?
>PoW is mandatory
Unknown
>Government not even on that website
The biggest threat is that Szabo dies and no one has any fucking idea what they're doing, what's the vision, what's the direction, and how not to get manipulated by government. You leave a bunch of deluded nerds who have no understanding of economics and politics, and the whole movement will be dead.

>> No.8572632

>>8571300

Is this a joke? Blockstream created the altcoin market by refusing to increase the block size and turning btc into an unusable piece of crap. Even a shitcoin like eth has more usability than btc at this point at least ypu can send transfers and run icos. Btc otoh is completely useless at this point. Nice store of value that crashes 70 % in a week lel.

But sure LN is gonna fix everything. Offchain transactions on a highly centealized second layer will bring in the decentralized revolution lmao

>> No.8572664

>>8572632
BTC transfers are like 1 sat/byte right now. A couple of alts will join Bitcoin, the rest will die

>> No.8572668

>>8572630
>You leave a bunch of deluded nerds who have no understanding of economics and politics, and the whole movement will be dead.
>implyibg that hasnt already happened when axa / rothschild bought out blockstream

>> No.8572699

>>8572668
Nope, Bitcoin is still following its initial direction very well. Partnerships are important when you have someone that understands what can be compromised and what cannot be. Bitcoin has a big vision, and you don't get there being an anarchist 12 year old that shouts fuck the banks XDD

>> No.8572705

>>8572630
The document does cover government threats. Any time he uses the word "attacker" or "criminal organization", replace with "government" and the meaning remains unchanged.

>> No.8572725

>>8572664
>BTC transfers are like 1 sat/byte right now

Becausr nobody uses this piece of shit for transactions anymore. During the runuo to 20 it became literally unusable and that will happen again if/when it goes on another run. LN was promised years ago and is still not even close to a functional solution. Its almost as if these bankers who pay blockstreams salary have no interest in a scalable btc and cripple its growth wherever they can hmm really makes you think

>> No.8572765

>>8572699

>talks about muh decentralized revolution
>sees nothing wrong with a centralized second layer that will be entirely run by banks

Youre full of shit just like every other bitcoin core maximalist

>> No.8572785

>>8572531
Szabo is MyGuy also, and I was very interested to see him follow Sergey/ChainLink. I think he cares about the success of smart contracts just as much as the success of bitcoin/cryptocurrency, and he’s seemingly not opposed to blockchain-agnostic systems like ChainLink instead of BTC oracles (which again, depend on sidechains that cannot be trustlessly implemented without changes to the core protocol).

On chain governance is not however a pipe dream, it will be fielded and tested this year.

>> No.8572790

>>8572705
That document is just a silly waste of time from a manchild. Still partially good that people involve themselves in Bitcoin, but there's nothing of substance there besides embarrassing everyone

>> No.8572791

>>8572765
lightning is not centralized and there's no evidence that it'll be "run by the banks" outside of your Bilderberg conspiracy theories you heard on Alex Jones

>> No.8572812

Just since no one has derailed this interesting conversation yet - what do you maximalists see as btc price in future?

I am a btc fan in that I wish I had 1) only ever bought btc and 2) never traded that btc for any other coin.

ALL of my losses have been from doing that. I regret ever touching my original bitcoin, it really is the king. I am struggling with the urge to gamble away the little I have left, through alts, to try and recoup some losses.

I, myself, am not sure that btc will see an ATH from here, and think that it may well be perma-cucked well under 15k from now on. How do you feel about that? If I believed btc would meet some of the wilder price expectations, I would never worry about just holding it from here on out.

>> No.8572814

>>8572725
You're all over the place and have no idea what you're saying

>> No.8572815

>>8572790
well, the author has a bounty of $50k if you can find five inaccuracies. If he's so wrong, go and collect.

>> No.8572833

Its good to see you alt fags finally learning your lesson. bitcoin is the only nonshitcoin not bcash faggots Bitcoin.

>> No.8572834

>>8570583
Will markets ever recover or this the end of everything? Should I sell all crypto and enter the DJIA

>> No.8572842

>>8572791

>lightning is not centralized

LN hubs need liquidity and who has liquidity you dummy?
hm?
I tell you who, banks

>muh conspiracy theory

are you implying axa and rothschild have not invested in blockstream?
because I can dig up the sources if you want

>> No.8572851

>>8572765
>>8572791
Lightning will be pretty centralized, Bitcoin will power banks, and third layer solutions will use fractional reserves. Deal with it

>> No.8572877

>>8572765
It's called Bitcoin. Every time some pre pubescent edgelord retard says Bitcoin core every adult in the room rolls their eyes

>> No.8572878

>>8572812
>price predictions

>> No.8572887

>>8572842
AXA and Rothschild invest in a lot of things hoping for a return. Doesn't mean they're secretly pulling the stings from the shadows in an effort to centralize BTC

>> No.8572897

>>8572814

>no idea what youre saying

so now youre not even trying to form a coherent argument any more
typical corecuck

>> No.8572907

>>8572815
Lol what

>> No.8572918

>>8572842
Post sources

>> No.8572929

>>8572842
>I tell you who, banks
Nope, LN is sold to exchanges dummy

>> No.8572945

>>8572897
>coherent argument
You first anon

>> No.8572948

>>8572887

ok so let me get this straight
BTC comes along and threatens the entire banking worlds business model
then the jewiest of all jew banks buy out blockstream and literally pay their devs salary
after that blockstream literally does whatever they can to gripple BTCs growth and run the network at 100% load instead of simply raising the blocksize
they promise a vaporware solution that shouldve been rolled out years ago
and this vaporware solution (if it ever becomes reality) will be highly centralized by banks. again see my comment above about liquidity which you conveniently ignored.

so now youre saying this is all a big fat coincidience right?
like what are you even talking about here

>> No.8572963

>>8572948
Wow cashies are literally brainwashed. Is this what you do all day in /r/btc?

>>>/x/

>> No.8572970

Hope you're right. I'd like Bitcoin to succeed and see the things you say come to fruition.

>> No.8572989

>>8572918

Blockstream is funded by the Digital Currency Group (DCG). Their senior advisor is Larry Summers, one of the main proponents on the war on cash. On their board of directors is one Glenn Hutchins, who's also on the board of the Federal Reserve bank. The DCG itself is funded by Master Card among others.

http://dcg.co/portfolio
http://dcg.co/who-we-are/
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/larry-summers-joins-barry-sil......
https://techcrunch.com/2015/10/27/barry-silbert-launches-dig......


Another investor in Blockstream is AXA Strategic Ventures. Their chairman and CEO Henri de Castries was at the time of the investment also chairman of the Bilderberg Group.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/bitcoin-startup-blockstream-rai......
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bilderberg_Group#Chairmen_of_t......

AXA is also a recruitment pool for Rothschild bankers. Their asset manager Laurent Tignard was handpicked as global head of asset management for the Edmont de Rothschild group.

http://www.investmenteurope.net/regions/france/edmond-de-rot......

So a bunch of central bankers, credit card companies and a company with strong ties to the Rothschild and Bilderberg group have all heavily invested in Blockstream. There is a clear conflict of interest because a decentralized currency at massive scale would threaten these people's business model.

Now since they poured in money into Blockstream the tx fees have gone through the roof, the merchant adoption has gone down and BTC is at the lowest rate in market dominance ever. This could all be a massive coincidence or just some powerful people trying to protect their business interests. I'll leave that up to you to decide.

>> No.8573027

>>8572963

>muh brainwash
>muh cashie

yeah thats usually how it goes with you corecucks, when you run out of arguments you resort to namecalling and the muh tinfoil hat meme

>> No.8573047

>>8572851
How will bitcoin power banks when an unknown number of anonymous hoarders would become the richest people in the world? Putin could have satoshis private key for all you know

>> No.8573061

>>8570583
what's you opinion on skycoin, it's one of the oldest projects in the space and devs are pretty libertarian in thought

>> No.8573064

>>8572970
There's much more to come as long as Szabo is with us. Smart contracts for international politics, smart property for lower interest high risk credit, decreased need of lawyer and accountants for the common people, trust-minimized systems, more openness. Bitcoin has a lot to offer, and it's been crushing all FUD for 10 years now

>> No.8573102

>>8572812

Bitcoin's price will be less volatile in the future. It'll be more like watching a big stock, index or fiat move cents or dollars.

Fearing that Bitcoin's cucked below 15k forever is why holding is hard and weak hands sell. There's a buyer on the other side of that trade. Who are you selling to?

If you're scared just learn more, more Bitcoin, more economics, more game theory, etc.

>> No.8573109

>>8572948
what a load of conspiracy crap. First, making an investment in a company doesn't mean you "own" it or have any say at all in operations. The block size limit is by design and meant to improve decentralization. Changing the block size requires hard forking, i.e. creating an entirely different coin. Lightning is not vaporware. It's here today already running on mainnet in beta, and there are three separate implementations being worked on so even development is decentralized. It's also fallacious to assume that banks would be the only source of liquidity. Anyone can run a hub, and I imagine many entrepreneurs will assuming they can profit from fees.

your argument consists entirely of conspiracy buzzwords like "jews", "bilgaberg" and "rothschild"

>> No.8573140

op, what do you recommend i buy to get to a healthy life down the road?

i already have a couple bitcoins, i have plenty of shitcoins (vtc, wtc, a couple eth). should i just put all my money in btc and wait it out, or is there any reason to buy things like ltc and monero iyo?

>> No.8573141

>>8573027
Bitcoin is doing what it's always been doing. Gaining territory while guarding its main property: security. The other coins don't know what this refers to

>>8573047
The wealth transfer is not as big as you think at all. There is an insignificant number of people who have been holding for years. Most people sold a long time ago and bought back. Many Bitcoin Core devs aren't even rich. This is not the significant obstacle at all

>> No.8573161

>>8573061
Stop falling for scams anon

>> No.8573165

>>8570583
Dude, learn to spell.

"Retard maximalist here AMA"

>> No.8573181

>>8573102
>If you're scared just learn more, more Bitcoin, more economics, more game theory, etc.

where to start? i've already read the easy shit like the internet of money. what's the next step?

>> No.8573189

>>8573109
>assume that banks would be the only source of liquidity.
Exchanges are the main source of liquidity. This was already known from the beginning from common sense, and there were some leaked emails as well

>> No.8573192

>>8572785
>>8571551
I likewise put my trust in Szabo to hold this whole crypto enterprise together, which is ironic given that Bitcoin's whole purpose is to eliminate trust. It just so happens that happens when something as revolutionary as Bitcoin comes along, it helps to have someone who has a genius grasp of history and geopolitics as your chief architect.
Now, onto Chainlink. I think your admonishment of the shitcoin market is a much-needed reality check to this board. But you know that he both retweeted a Chainlink shill on Twitter and followed Sergey, a sign that he's following the project at the very least, and has likely talked at length with Sergey and appears to have given tacit endorsement on social media. I know I'm reading the tea leaves here, but if you put so much stock in him, then surely you'd see his relationship on social media to Chainlink as weighty.

>> No.8573212

>>8573140
The only reason to buy alts is to trade for more sats. Stop looking at fiat and accumulate BTC until the real flippening when people abandon national currencies for the more secure alternative: BTC

>> No.8573218

>>8573109

you are fucking retarded m8
you cant just handwave everything away as a conspiracy

LN will need liquidity and therefore simply be bought up by the highest bidder. and in case you havent noticed, the central banking cartel has virtually unlimited funds at their disposal so who do you think will run the vast majority of hubs on this network?

>muh block size limit improves decentralization

nonsense
first of all nodes dont even verify transactions so this entire decentralization argument is moot
second you can easily run full nodes with bigger blocksize using household hardware
third LN will be highly centralized for reasons stated above. so this whole stick of "oh were so worried about decentralization thats why we literally take money from banks and take transactions on centralized second layer" is just a big fat lie

>Changing the block size requires hard forking, i.e. creating an entirely different coin

that already happened in case you didnt notice

>Anyone can run a hub, and I imagine many entrepreneurs will assuming they can profit from fees.

you literally need liquidity to run LN hubs, the more monies the more transactions you can route so again how is this gonna be a decentralized solution? its obviously gonna be centralized in that the players with the deepest pockets (banks) will run the biggest hubs and control the biggest share of the network.

>> No.8573228

>>8573189
well, except that in a bitcoin future, there wouldn't be exchanges because if the economy operates on bitcoin there'd be nothing to exchange.

what emails are you referring to?

>> No.8573230

>>8573181
Szabo's blog

>> No.8573253

>>8573141

where exactly is BTC gaining territory?
merchant adoption is down
tx volume is down
market dominance is down
so please tell me where its gaining ground lol

>> No.8573289

>>8573189

oh great so we just have to trust a bunch of exchanges instead of a bunch of bankers
wow that changes everything. bring on the decentralized revolution!

>> No.8573305
File: 64 KB, 1021x346, 2018-03-26-230204_1021x346_scrot.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
8573305

>>8573228
In the bitcoin future, banks will be the hubs. This was known from 2010 anon, try to keep up, will you?

Google Lightning Network liquidity exchanges emails or something

>> No.8573341

>>8573212
yeah i understand that. just never know for sure when to sell.

do you not think coins like VTC and LTC will gain a lot of value when swapping becomes more common/easy? does it not make sense to accumulate/hold those for when bitcoin gets more mass adoption?

in other words, won't swapping just naturally make some shitcoins more valuable?

>> No.8573378

>>8573253
In political influence

>>8573289
LN is trustless. Lmao you're just dumb asf. LN is not meant to be your dumb anarchist dream. LN is a way to scale to gain adoption for the main blockchain. No one cares about buying coffee in a "decentralized trustless secure anonymous private" way and other buzzwords. Cashies are literally brainlets and everyone gave up trying to reason with you because you need to be a special type of retard to not understand anything at all from what's going on

>> No.8573442

>>8573181

I believe Saifedean Ammous his book, The Bitcoin Standard, is out now. I have high hopes for that one.

Giacomo Zucco's talk on political attack vectors on Bitcoin is very interesting (it's on Youtube)

Also, almost all of the brightest minds in Bitcoin are active on Twitter.

The Nakamoto institute has some interesting articles as well, those are just a couple suggestions

>> No.8573465

>>8573192
can we have one thread without meme shilling please

>> No.8573472

LN is literally a backdoor for dumb normies to start using Bitcoin and for us to gain territory. No one ever cared about buying small shit with decentralized systems. Paypal can do this just fine. LN is literally just conning normies and dumbasses to join something they don't understand. We don't care if LN is decentralized or not. We only need it to work and to be on top of Bitcoin in to gain more ground and influence

>> No.8573476

>>8573442
thanks anon

>> No.8573504

>>8570583
What are some weak points with this maximalist approach? Thanks anon

>> No.8573512

>>8573192
Szabo made it clear in a 2015 interview (check cypherpunks archive) that he has no interest in decentralized oracles. Besides that, http://bitcoinhivemind.com/ is implementing decentralized oracles on Bitcoin. There's no future for Link

>> No.8573535

>>8573378

>throws around empty buzzwords like "political influence"
>handwaves away my arguments by calling them empty buzzwords

Im not a cashie but you fucking corecucks are the worst. you literally have no arguments and always resort to strawmanning and namecalling when youre called out on your nonsense. like wtf do you even mean with "Political influence"?
care to expand? BTC is fucking tanking by all metrics and all you cucks have to say is "oh yeah LN will save the day surely". youve been waiting for how many years now? not even to mention the huge design flaws this shitty vaporware has. but yeah lets just call everyone who points that out a cashie and call him names.

>> No.8573595

>>8573472

You're selling LN short, I want to hold Bitcoin because it's monetary policy is better than fiat. However, I still have to ue fiat to pay for groceries etc. If I could use LN there would be one less reason for me to convert back to fiat.

Also if LN was live during last year's mania/spam attacks or a combination of those, newcomers would have had a smoother experience.

>> No.8573603
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8573603

>>8573472
>No one ever cared about using BTC to actually like, buy stuff

the absolute state of corecucks

>> No.8573652
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8573652

>>8573535
There's nothing to argue anon, just look around you. Check the current second-layer projects in development for Bitcoin. Check who invested. Check partners. Check dev hires. IPtables dev just quit Linux to work on LN. Szabo is working with ex-Morgan Stanley executives. Check how countries are fighting to be "the crypto center" and how "blockchain is the future." Just look around you. Bitcoin is taking over from all directions with millions of tentacles in all industries

>> No.8573683

>>8573595
Fiat can also be backed by Bitcoin so it doesn't matter that much. But yeah, LN is still good because it's trust-minimized and I like the system too. But that's not the main vision, it's just a nice bonus. Maybe I was a bit harsh

>>8573603
>same argument for years now

>> No.8573726
File: 97 KB, 500x701, B2376289-D666-42AE-BAE6-8BA533CB0628.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
8573726

>>8573504
Hi anon, hoping to get some critical perspectives

>> No.8573774

>>8573652

>theres nothing to argue

because you dont have an argument
blockchain is taking over but BTC is losing on influence.
less tx volume
less merchant adoption
less market dominance
even the price has crashed and somehow you try to paint it as a win its hilarious
its tanking by all metrics and you corecucks celebrate this as a victory lmao. the only saving grace for BTC is its first mover advantage and that the market is too retarded to figure what the hell is going on. BTC and blockstream has set back the entire crypto ecosystem for years. but sure keep patting yourself on the back because its not gonna keep its #1 spot out of pure inertia forever.

>> No.8573791

>>8573683
>same argument for years now

and still no counter-argument

>> No.8573950

>>8573726

Thats pretty much how it goes for everyone who spends a few years in the space

>> No.8573976

>>8573774
I am "naturally" a fan of btc but all of your points there are manifest and I do wonder how someone might refute/defend them?

>> No.8574032

>>8573512
You dont even know what decentralised oracles are if you think that site is delivering them

>> No.8574041

>>8573774
The crypto market crashed regularly for 10 years, that's just the way it goes. Your metrics are dumb, and people said what you're saying today every year.

>>8573791
Just because it's a cash system, doesn't mean it has to serve every general-purpose use. Everyone understood early on that you can't have more than 7 TPS, and people agreed that it's okay because security is the essential aspect and not TPS. Everyone besides Gavin and his retarded friends who started a civil war to """""scale""""" Bitcoin by weakening its security. Core rightly rejected scammers like Ver and his ideas, and they started thinking about actually scaling the system i.e. not vertical scaling. They worked on Lightning Net, but it's a big system. Bitcoin wasn't ready for the hype in December, and it couldn't sustain the transactions. That's ok, because the market of speculators comes and goes, and weakening the security for a market of speculators is batshit insane. People continued to work on LN and now it's live on mainnet in beta.

Bitcoin FUD, LN FUD, sidechains FUD, alts FUD, Bitcoin doesn't care. While speculators leave to gamble somewhere else, Google engineers quit their jobs to join Bitcoin. To me, anyone who supports increased blocksize is automatically retarded

>> No.8574102
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8574102

>>8574032
Read up http://bitcoinhivemind.com/faq/

>> No.8574113

>>8574041
>Your metrics are dum

so this is where we are at now, huh
"this data is dumb so Ill just ignore it"
wow just wow anon


>Just because it's a cash system doesnt mean you should actually be able to use it to buy stuff

do you ever take a second to read the braindead nonsense that you are typing up here?

>> No.8574153

>>8574041
Do you Bitcoin maximalists literally have so much cognitive dissonance that you refuse to pay attention to the Ethereum space because the first generation of ICOs were shitty?

Do you know what the Author of the LN is doing now?

Do you really think shitty LN is going to compete against fully scalable Plasma smart contracts?

While you fucking morons talk about your 7 TPS, OmiseGO is going to be processing 1 million TPS by the end of the year. They literally just finalized the Plasma Cash specification while you people talk about fucking block sizes.

Literally Bitcoin should just stop developing, network boomers who think it IS blockchain, and try to keep grasp of the reserve currency use case.

I actually like Bitcoin as a reserve/digital gold. I think it has merit there. But every time I see an ignorant technical maximalist I want to gouge my brain out.

Ethereum is superior in literally every way for smart contracts, including decentralized exchanges and payments, and if you don't realize this expect a rude awakening from Plasma/OMG soon.

>> No.8574158

>>8574041
>The crypto market crashed regularly for 10 years, that's just the way it goes

you are so utterly retarded
the crypto market has been going through boom and bust cycles yes
but BTC dominance has been on a downward spiral
same about tx fees
same about merchant adoption

so in other words your shitty BTC is becoming less and less important for the overall crypto ecosystem. i know you think facts are dumb and you dont need to come up with coherent arguments. but this is just whats going on in the real world right now.

>> No.8574172

>>8573950
My main concern is wealth/power being transferred unequally to anonymous early adopters who may misuse it because they’ve earned it through dumb luck

>> No.8574175

>>8574113
>blockchain is taking over but BTC is losing on influence.
No, inflated mcap from a financial bubble in products with 0 products don't count. Bitcoin gained marketcap and it will eat the mcap of every single coin with their vaporwave technology once everyone flees into Bitcoin cause alts have no devs, no product, no market

>less tx volume
Yes, it's not ready to be adopted as a general payment system. It has less transactions than at peak bubble? Wow

>less merchant adoption
Bitcoin isn't ready for merchant adoption. People who keep pushing for merchant adoption are just redditors who don't understand anything

>even the price has crashed and somehow you try to paint it as a win its hilarious
Why do I even bother go kys

>> No.8574190

>>8573976

they simply cant
bring any of these facts up and they will always resort to namecalling, strawmanning and simply handwaving your arguments away. every. single. time.

>> No.8574192

>>8574041

In communities that grow this large we'll always have groups that splinter off. Let the fundamentals work their magic, we'll see who was right in 10 years.

>> No.8574210

>>8574153
>Ethereum
Stop

>> No.8574222

Why do you feel the need to call yourself a Bitcoin maximalist? Has the fud from the newfags/late adopters gotten to you?

There's a new altcoin / shitcoin created every day, bitcoins always been the only crypto

>> No.8574227

>>8574210
I literally get a skin crawling "I'm talking to a Scientologist" feeling when I see cognitive dissonance like this.

Plasma.io

You're welcome.

>> No.8574250

>>8574153

From an outsider perspective, cyrpto is such a risky business (and with such an uncertain future) that it only makes sense that the coin with the MOST market presence and the MOST investors and media attention directed its way is going to succeed.

When I see people investing in this shit, literal shit, dogecoins, memecoin, dildo coin, jessica rabbit coin, this coin, that coin, it really makes me scratch my head and wonder

Are they stupid, or am I?

If BTC gets the kind of traction that you guys think it will s a global untaxable money system, of course the scragglers will down the shittier.

So basically, no matter what, your Iota coin is doomed to failure, even if crypto as a whole is not.

Please educate me, correct me, but I mean, it seems so simple but I'm a simple jack kind of guy

>> No.8574257

>>8574175
>alts have no devs, no product, no market

lol
even a shitcoin like ETH is more useful than BTC at this point
like you can actually do transactions and ICOs with it.

>It has less transactions than at peak bubble?

people switched to other cryptos for transactions because of the astronomic fees you mongrel. then corecucks decided this is a clear win because tx fees were going down again. even though a couple of months earlier the celebrated that fees were rising. its almost like you delusional fucks will take anything as a win, you'll be celebrating once it drops under 10% market dominance no doubt

>Bitcoin isn't ready for merchant adoption. People who keep pushing for merchant adoption are just redditors who don't understand anything

yeah no shit its not ready
meanwhile Bitcoin Cash merchant adoption is increasing
Oh wait I said something positive about Bcash I guess that makes me a delusional cashie now lol

>Why do I even bother go kys

you brought up the price with your shitty infographic you dumb fuck.

>> No.8574277

>>8574227
No one cares about Ethereum anon. We'll have smart contracts on Bitcoin via rootstock. They already launched their beta mainnet. There are so many things broken and irreparable with Ethereum that I can't even bother. I need to go to sleep anyway. Enjoy your shitcoins

>> No.8574339

>>8574250
I agree wholeheartedly.

Unfortunately, OMG is not just another shitcoin. It is an integral part of Plasma, which is an Ethereum scaling technology that *requires two chains*.

OMG is the other chain. ETH-OMG are bonded projects. You really ought to research the connection.

Honestly, I don't have any allegiance or support for any other ERC20 token. The use cases of ICOs were not ready for when it arrived on the mainnet.

You can think of Plasma chains as a "new" kind of ICO, where there is enough scalability to actually support legitimate operations. OMG is the first "new ICO" written by the author of the Lightning Network, who left the project because Bitcoin's virtual machine functions are fucking terrible.

It is an EXTREMELY important project for the future of crypto overall. The absolute ignorance of it in the Bitcoin space is grossly irresponsible.

>> No.8574379

>>8574250

But don't you want to pay your dentist with Dentacoin? Don't you want to rent a shared workspace with sharedworkspacecoin?

Trading altcoins is literally just selling the biggest bag of shit possible to someone that's more retarded than you. All these youtube shitcoin shills know, but people like talking their position up.

So no, you're not retarded. Crypto has had shitcoins since the beginning, Litecoin was the original shitcoin, and it did well during the first shitcoin bubble. Peercoin, Feathercoin, Pandacoin, whatever. We'll get some new names every bubble. People like to gamble

>> No.8574455

>>8574339

Could you name some use cases for someone that is not interested in investing in ICO's?

>> No.8574484

>>8574277
Except that rootstock keeps what is unambiguously the worst part of Ethereum, the EVM.

Nobody will ever use HiveMind. Cap this. You know it to be true, sidechains are a Procrustean bed. Szabo certainly isn’t paying them any attention on twitter, why would that be, if he believed they could actually realise practical smart contracts?

>> No.8574535

>>8574102
Yes I read it. Its clearly focused on the idea of prediction markets and handwaves the very tricky oracle problem. That you genuinely dont realise this takes away from any point you think youre making.

>> No.8574542

>>8574455
Massively scalable smart contracts.

Decentralized exchanges (fiat for crypto, crypto for fiat, crypto for crypto, crypto for goods; all other forms of "digitizable value" included (think airline miles))

Payroll
Remittances and deposits
Tax payments

Digital identity transactions (OMG already in agreement with Thailand to run its citizens digital IDs)

Loyalty points
Gaming tradable content

just off the top, there are plenty more.

>> No.8574562

>>8570730
This is what brainlets actually believe

>> No.8574619

>>8574535
Correct on all points. The requirements of a fully general decentralised oracle service cannot be reduced to that of a prediction market, particularly on running on a crippled blockchain (which again, cannot be safely implemented).

>> No.8574733

>>8574153
Smart contracts are arguably better handled on the 2nd layer than being built into the coin itself.

A decentralized exchange running on the LN sounds much sounder/simpler than through a dapp.

>> No.8574769
File: 61 KB, 600x456, bog attack.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
8574769

*click*
Dump Ethereum and Chainlink, remove Dan Schneider from his position at Nickelodeon for sexual harassment and then corral the whales for a pump this time next week.
*click*

>> No.8574782

>>8574733

Smart contracts run best on central server FYI. Why bother with consensus and stuff.

>> No.8574783

>>8574733
OMG is a second layer.

It's currently a "normal" ERC20 running on Ethereum. It will switch to its own blockchain (though still with an ERC20 standard) and bond to Ethereum as a "child chain" using the Plasma architecture.

>> No.8574978

>>8570583
When will you die and let this shitcoin die with you?

>> No.8575462

>>8573064

enjoy your Jesus figure brainlet.

Everything riding on one man...

>> No.8575537

>>8572664
>A couple of alts will join Bitcoin, the rest will die
Which ones (beside XMR)?

>> No.8575582

>>8575537
XLM for starters

>> No.8576336

>>8575582
lmao

>> No.8576814
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8576814

>>8570676
fungibility and privacy are on the roadmap for bitcoin cash