/biz/ - Business & Finance

[Anonymous No.845041]

INFO DUMP ON BITCOIN

5 reasons why NOT to buy into the Bitcoin hype

https://medium.com/@KawaiiHolocaust1488/5-reasons-why-not-to-buy-into-the-bitcoin-hype-e2842804428e

Block size vs. Transaction Fees: The Achilles heel of Bitcoin explained for the layman

https://medium.com/@KawaiiHolocaust1488/block-size-vs-transaction-fees-the-achilles-heel-of-bitcoin-explained-for-the-layman-505f0dac11de

The Bitcoin Mining Bubble: Why Bitcoin’s low price is an existential threat

https://medium.com/@KawaiiHolocaust1488/the-bitcoin-mining-bubble-why-bitcoin-s-low-price-is-an-existential-threat-b645586db835

‘Free Electricity’: The Ongoing Con Job concerning Bitcoin Mining

https://medium.com/@KawaiiHolocaust1488/free-electricity-the-ongoing-con-job-concerning-bitcoin-mining-5f011022b050

Bitcoin: A Million-Dollar-A-Day Pyramid Scheme on the brink of collapse

https://medium.com/@KawaiiHolocaust1488/bitcoin-a-million-dollar-a-day-pyramid-scheme-on-the-brink-of-collapse-fb47f6663d13

RECENT NEWS:
- Price down 80% since beginning of 'brief correction' almost 2 years ago

- CEO of MtGox Mark Karpeles arrested; Bitcoin users not affected (by that I mean they're not getting any of their money back).

- Convicted criminal Roger Ver puts on hold his angsty tweets about US government not letting him back in after giving up his citizenship, to reaffirm that he personally sighted bank statements that showed MtGox was, despite evidence to the contrary.

- Questions about Danny Brewster's whereabouts resurface, as angry Neo&Bee share bagholders are informed he fled the country without prosecution after stealing $30,000 of customers money and bankrupting the company in 56 days (or thereabouts).

- 'Core' developers (the elite few who decide what Bitcoin is to be for the masses) continue to fail to agree on a block size increase, realizing that the network is well and truly fucked either way: Either you have big blocks which consume FUCKHUEG bandwidth, or FUCKHUEG transaction fees.

[Anonymous No.845053]

>>845041
I started going to biz about a few days ago, and on and off this year very rarely, my mother just said she had been invited to a meeting regarding bit coins to a local cafe she goes to.

Cont?

[Anonymous No.845055]

>>845053
SOrry I meant she got invited last night and went to the meeting regarding bitcoins.

[Anonymous No.845058]

>>845053

Sure, what happened?

In related news, Ethereum idiots on suicide watch

[Anonymous No.845066]

>>845058
well long story short she came about an hour late to the meeting, but they were trying to convince her to purchase bitcoins on a site.

[Anonymous No.845070]

>>845066

What kind of meeting was it, and why she go to it?

[Anonymous No.845075]

>>845070
She got invited to a meeting at night from a cafe owner regarding bitcoins. to a coffee shop she goes to every morning.

[Anonymous No.845190]

>>845058
The fuck are you talking about?

1.) Ethercoin isnt ether. Its possibly a huge scam and lots of people know that.

2.) Ethereum just launched like a week ago

3.)https://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/ethercoin/#charts

The pruce has shot the fuck up. Anyone who had ethercoins at a few cents is sitting oretty selling off at 3 bucks a pop , if they turn out not be be fungible for real ethereum when things get rolling thats fine too as they only cost 3 bucks a pop , same site lookup the daily volumes and youll see how hyped people are getting just on the off chance that ethercoins can be exhanged for ethereum

[Anonymous No.845214]

>>845190

>1.) Ethercoin isnt ether.

"Ethercoins are redeemable for Ether on a 1:1 basis."

>2.) Ethereum just launched like a week ago

And it was a pump and dump that lasted ~3 days

>The pruce has shot the fuck up.

Yeah, it was pumped up to $5 for 5 minutes, and then the ass fell out of the price as pumpers headed for the exits.

This recent brief climb to $3.60 is textbook dead cat bounce.

Protip: The cost to mine ethereum is currently less than $0.10 per 'ether'. It ain't gonna last above that for long, as miners will suck all the money out of the system while the going is good.

Once they open up trading, which should be in the next day or two I assume, miners will dump hard.

Oh, and the user interface is a fucking mess. I managed to get the miner running on Windows using my HD7970 a few days ago, but I cbf mining this crap, as I don't see this being a money maker (who the hell would want to buy it, when the wallet/client UI is unintelligible?)

[Anonymous No.845365]

>>845041
crypto pump is still a thing?

the best thing they ever did was call them "coins" lol

[Anonymous No.845658]

OPie is correct, it's gonna crash. Proof:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XbZ8zDpX2Mg

[Anonymous No.845844]

Ethereum is now just behind litecoin for number 3 in market cap. It's only been trading for 1 day so far and seems to be worth about $3/ETH. Which is 10X IPO price. It only has to double and it will overtake ripple to be the number 2.

It's going to be the facebook to bitcoins MySpace. It has the same type of VC funding from the right connected people. Barclays, UBS, BNP paribas etc. The dev team are professional and the corporate structure is well managed. The dev team are communicative and helpful. And vitalik buterin is a genius.

The Auger crowdsale http://www.augur.net/blog/why-a-crowdsale-is-necessary-for-augur-to-work-some-updates is launching on the 22nd its a really clever prediction market system that runs on Ethereum that will allow the network to "see" events in the real world without relying on trust. It's the killer app for Ethereum because so many future dapps will need the information it can provide. And there can only be one such app on the network.

Expect a ether price bump around the time of the auger crowdsale because you can only buy AUG with ETH not BTC

[Anonymous No.846118]

>>845658

Protip: We have evidence now that those bubbles were caused by internal manipulation by Mark Karpeles on MtGox - i.e. creating half a billion dollars worth of buy orders with no actual money to back it

Read more here: https://willyreport.wordpress.com/2014/05/25/the-willy-report-proof-of-massive-fraudulent-trading-activity-at-mt-gox-and-how-it-has-affected-the-price-of-bitcoin/

But keep believing in your delusion. It's your loss man. You're stuck with the Bitcoins and the price is now down 80% since December 2013 and still falling. Soz for ur loss.

[Anonymous No.846125]

Aight /biz/. I bought into bitcoin with $150. My wallet right now is sitting around $138. Should I sell or hold?

[Anonymous No.846126]

>>846125
Or should I trade bitcoins for ethereum?

[Anonymous No.846134]

>>845844
>VC funding
>prediction market system
>killer app

Oh look, it's the same buzzwords and reasoning we saw a year ago as to why Bitcoin was going to jump from $400 back up past its $1241 peak to $2000 and beyond.

Well guess what, despite all these 'killer apps' (most of which are now defunct), the price is now $278 and nobody wants shitcoins.

Last buy for Ether is $2.67 btw.

If you look at the order history, you can see that the vast majority of trades have matched the 'buy' rather than 'sell' demand - which means sellers are compromising and dumping it for increasingly lower prices.

Ethercoin, which is not even guaranteed to give you actual ether as it promises, was trading at $3.60 just before this trading launch of actual ether.

From $3.60 for a *chance* to get ether, to $2.67 for guaranteed ether, in one day. Top lel.

Who knows what it'll end up trading at once a week or two passes, but my guess (keep in mind its only a guess based on my previous experience with altcoins and the current mining difficulty), is ~$0.50-$1. The cost to mine is currently only $0.10 or less per ether + the UI and concept is pretty much unintelligible for non-technical users.

[Anonymous No.846137]

>>846125
>$138

You might as well just keep it.

I have a similar amount, and I'm just keeping in the extremely unlikely event my arguments against Bitcoin are wrong.

That way, it's a win-win situation.

Just don't buy anymore Bitcoins, and consider that $138 gone. Basically, consider it as you would a 1000 to 1 novelty bet - would you bet 5 cents? $1? $100? Anymore than that and surely it would start impacting your life negatively.

>Or should I trade bitcoins for ethereum?

Well, here's some facts for you to at least consider:

The price has dropped from $3.60 (Ethercoin, which promises 1:1 exchange to ether) to $2.67 (actual ether) in the first day of trading.

The cost to mine is currently $0.10 or less. For example, on my HD7970 I can mine ~10 ether per day (2 blocks). Assuming my electricity rate is $0.10/kWh, and my system consumes 300W, for one day that's $0.72 in electricity - which is 7.2 cents per ether.

What are the chances do you think that miners are not going to dump this shit on the open market until it reaches near equilibrium?

[Anonymous No.846138]

>>846137
Thanks bud <3

[Anonymous No.846152]

>>845844
>Which is 10X IPO price

You just made my argument for me why Ether is going to be dumped hard.

>It has the same type of VC funding from the right connected people. Barclays, UBS, BNP paribas etc.

Source? I did a google search for 'ethereum vc funding' and nothing turned up. In fact, I found an assertion to the contrary by 'Greg Slepak' on Twitter:

"Without any VC funding @VitalikButerin and the @ethereumproject are about to revolutionize computing as we know it."

>vitalik buterin is a genius

You mean the 21-year-old slavshit dropout from the University of Waterloo?

Seriously, what has this guy even done apart from Ethereum?

[Anonymous No.846167]

>>845041
OP's image is pretty dumb. You can get into bitcoin pretty cheaply, and more people buying into bitcoin doesn't cause cash to flow in an upward manner.

I mean bitcoin may still be shit, but it itself isn't a pyramid scheme.

[Anonymous No.846181]

>>846167
>I mean bitcoin may still be shit, but it itself isn't a pyramid scheme.

To make money out of Bitcoin you must convince others to buy into it.

The 'early adopters' have cashed out in the form of Lambrghinis and Mansions, having earned Bitcoins for peanuts in 2010, leaving the vast majority of 'investors' with a few crumbs to divide amongst themselves.

So now those bagholders have to work out a way of getting even more new adopters, or the scheme will fail and their losses will be fully realized as everyone rushes for the exits.

Bitcoins do not produce anything of value, as say a logging company does (and thus its stock). As Buffett has correctly pointed out, 'Cheques transfer value - are cheques worth a whole lot of money?'.

With Bitcoin you only get out the money you put in. And in order for someone to make a great deal of money (such as the early adopters who already cashed out for Lamborghinis and the like), there must be a great many losers. That Lamborghini requires the deposits of perhaps 1000 people.

As the image states, the problem with all pyramid schemes is that eventually you run out of buyers. Once you can't find 'greater fools', which must increase exponentially(!) with each round, the pyramid scheme collapses and the majority (the big bottom/newest tier) are left with nothing.

[Anonymous No.846182]

>>846181
Bitcoin isn't only about making money. A lot of people just use it as a vehicle for transferring money / getting around oppressive governments.

I can see how one who exclusively views cryptocurrencies as a way to make money would think such things, though.

[Anonymous No.846183]

>>846167

BTW, to give you an idea of just how little time it takes to run out of buyers, here's a visualization.

[Anonymous No.846186]

>>846182
>Bitcoin isn't only about making money. A lot of people just use it as a vehicle for transferring money / getting around oppressive governments.

I won't even bother compiling the usage statistics for you, as I think its common knowledge/self-evident that the main reason most people buy Bitcoin is because they hope to get rich quick.

So I'll let our claims stand our their own merits.

[Anonymous No.846189]

>>846186

*on their own merits

[Anonymous No.846192]

>>846183
Nice image. Shame there's 0 need with Bitcoin to pay upward for it to make any goddamn sense.

[Anonymous No.846193]

Buy/invest in deez dubs

[Anonymous No.846197]

>>846192
>Shame there's 0 need with Bitcoin to pay upward for it to make any goddamn sense.

What do you mean?

If you mean Bitcoin works at $0.01 just as it works at $1000, then I agree with you.

This does not refute that it is a pyramid scheme.

Let's use a historic example: Beanie Babies.

Beanie babies were not made with the intention of becoming a pyramid scheme (Note; Satoshi's comments suggest he might have intended it be one).

Beanie babies had what you might call 'intrinsic value' or 'use value', but it did not make them worth a whole lot of money. That does not mean it wasn't a pyramid scheme.

Watch this video to learn more about the Beanie Babies pyramid scheme from one of its victims: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PgDsyj5eLmo

[Anonymous No.846206]

>>846197
The conflating of "wild speculation" and "pyramid scheme" is baffling. Words have meaning. Pyramid schemes aren't just any "get-people-to-join people-lose-money bad-thing".

Looking around at the beanie baby thing and bitcoin it seems a lot of other people make the same mistake.

>"In a pyramid scheme, an organization compels individuals to make a payment and join. In exchange, the organization promises its new members a share of the money taken from every additional member that they recruit. The directors of the organization (those at the top of the pyramid) also receive a share of these payments."

[Anonymous No.846220]

>>846206

The definition of a pyramid scheme is not as constrained as that. The first line of the article from which you quote is more accurate:

>A pyramid scheme is an unsustainable business model that involves promising participants payment or services, primarily for enrolling other people into the scheme, rather than supplying any real investment or sale of products or services to the public.

Under the title 'What is a Pyramid Scheme and What is Legitimate Marketing?', the US Federal Trade Commission states this:

>Pyramid schemes now come in so many forms that they may be difficult to recognize immediately. However, they all share one overriding characteristic. They promise consumers or investors large profits based primarily on recruiting others to join their program, not based on profits from any real investment or real sale of goods to the public. Some schemes may purport to sell a product, but they often simply use the product to hide their pyramid structure.

The difference between 'pyramid scheme' and legitimate 'multi-level marketing' is vague, but I put to you that the difference can be summarized thusly: A multi-level marketing scheme is legitimate if it is sustainable. A pyramid scheme is illegitimate *because* it is unsustainable.

Here are two examples to illustrate:

Scheme A promises 10% of every sale you make of one of their toys, and if you recruit 5 friends to sell toys you get a 5% bonus commission for the toys you sell. This scheme might be legitimate, because the margin profit on the toys might be 20%, and because the max commission is capped at 15%, it's sustainable.

Scheme B promises the same, except it doesn't have a cap on bonus commisions (i.e. for *every* 5 friends, extra 5%). This scheme is unsustainable and thus a pyramid scheme, because if people start recruiting more than 10 friends, commissions will exceed profits and someone has to end up paying for it/not get paid.

[Anonymous No.846248]

>>845844

Ether now at $1.25

How long has it been on the market now for? 30 hours?

It's starting to look like my prediction of ~$0.50-$1 in a week or two might have been too conservative.

For those who fell for the pyramid scheme: 1-800-273-TALK

[Anonymous No.846254]

Turns out its only been on the market for 24 hours

They call it Ethereum because your money disappears into thin air!

LOL

[Anonymous No.846285]

If you ever come across a Bitcoiner in real life, DO NOT say anything aggravating, as you might end up as the next thing this autist has the urge to crack with a machete:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y7z2WFcEw5Y

If a Bitcoiner approaches you in the street, perhaps handing out a flier for a startup similar to Neo&Bee and to give you a rant on why Bitcoin will save you from the evil 'fiat' system, respond in a kind and accommodating tone of voice with a warm smile 'Thankyou Sir, but I'm in a real hurry for an appointment right now' and continue to walk past at a slightly hurried pace.

DO NOT mention that you have a girlfriend or job to attend to - this will only inflame the situation.

DO NOT accept the flier only to throw it away in a nearby trash can. He will likely notice this, and accepting the flier will only encourage him and put others at increased risk. Only accept the flier if he continues to demand it, and dispose it well out of his sight.

DO NOT lie and say you already have Bitcoin or have knowledge of Bitcoin. He is likely to be gullible and believe you, but he will either challenge you to affirm his superior knowledge, or become infatuated with you and may stalk and/or sexually harass you.

If you walk into your shop to find it has been vandalized by a Bitcoiner with a 'We accept Bitcoin' sticker in an attempt to get more stores to accept Bitcoin, call the police rather than attempt to confront him, and consider taking out an APVO for your personal protection.

[Anonymous No.846291]

>>846285
>trying this hard

[Anonymous No.846293]

>>846291

Thanks 4 bumping my thread :-)

[Anonymous No.846330]

>>845844
>It's going to be the facebook to bitcoins MySpace

[Anonymous No.846334]

>>846181
LOL. You are clueless. Stick to CocaCola stocks grandpa.

[Anonymous No.846378]

>Bitcoins do not produce anything of value, as say a logging company does (and thus its stock). As Buffett has correctly pointed out, 'Cheques transfer value - are cheques worth a whole lot of money?'.

Cheques can simple be printed and the supply is not capped. If they were scarce they may have value,

Bitcoin is useful and it's scarce so it has a value. Simple as that. It's not some giant pyramid or scam.

[Anonymous No.846383]

>>846334

>your grandfather is retired and you will never get the chance

[Anonymous No.846390]

>>845041

Bumping because it's true

[Anonymous No.846400]

>>846334

>non-consumable

Bitcoins can easily be lost.

>Secure

See attached picture.

It's of note that whoever made that image (I assume some bagholder from r/bitcoin as I've seen it there before), put in brackets 'cannot be counterfeited'. This suggests that the author was all too well aware of the truth of the matter, and yet couldn't forego entirely the delight of this opportunity to cherry pick.

[Anonymous No.846401]

>>846334
>Easily transactable

As evidenced recently, a transaction burdening on the network achievable with just a few hundred dollars in fees per day is enough to slow transaction times to a crawl.

Transactions can never be considered entirely secure, just as they can't be guaranteed to go through even with a fee paid, but 6 confirmations is the generally accepted compromise for security vs. convenience. What we saw recently was transactions blowing out to ~24 hours per confirmation even with fee paid, meaning any sensible business or individual would have to wait a week before transferring product or providing service. Note: Some businesses require many more confirmations, particular those that deal with large amounts of money per transaction.

It's also worth pointing out that the real cost of a transaction (which includes fees + stealth inflation through block rewards paid to miners) is currently around $10. The price of a transaction increases as the price of Bitcoin increases, hence it peaked at $90 per transaction in December 2013. 'Easy' implies not only without impediment, but also cost.

Anyone who has actually used Bitcoin knows how fatuous your image is. I think others who know little about Bitcoin will see through your image too, given how frequent and widely publicized the hacks and frauds are (MtGox, Neo&Bee, etc.) - once they know it's a lie on one point, they'll be suspicious of the rest of it.

One reason why Bitcoin is trash is that it is extremely volatile - far too volatile for me as a seller to accept, and far too volatile for any individual to hold, even for a brief period of time. Bitcoiners have promised for years that volatility would decrease (with no explanation), but time has told the truth. There are many other reasons why Bitcoin either doesn't work or doesn't do anything better, the main ones I list in my first article in OP as:

1. Fraud
2. Fees
3. Price manipulation
4. State Regulation
5. Corruption and bureaucratic inefficiency

[Anonymous No.846411]

>>846378

>Cheques can simple be printed and the supply is not capped. If they were scarce they may have value.

The cheque example demonstrates that Bitcoin does not produce value; that is the important point to take here.

It is important because it makes plain that with Bitcoin, you only get out what you put in. This defines it as different from something like a stock, which can sustainably give you dividends because it actually creates value.

For instance, a stock in some farming machinery company might give me a payoff if I invest in it because my money is invested into improved farming machinery which allows for more crops to be grown.

With Bitcoin, you put $1000 in, and then what? Nothing. It just sits there, until it is either withdrawn, sold off to someone else or sucked by miners looking to pay their electricity bills. It produces no value. So how are people making out of it? Answer: They're making money out of other people. The 'early adopters' profit at the expense of the latecomers, which is essentially just a relabeling of the traditional pyramid scheme.

[Anonymous No.846451]

>>846411
No.

Bitcoin is useful and scarce which means it has a value.

How is this hard to understand. It's not a stock or cheque FFS.

[Anonymous No.846453]

>>845041
>bitcoin hype
I thought this died in 2011?

[Anonymous No.846490]

>>846197
>Note; Satoshi's comments suggest he might have intended it be one).

Thats an entire different and fascinating su ject.

The satoshi wallet still holds 1 million btc and they haven't moved since its inception

Is satoshi real?

Is this a darpa experiment?

[Anonymous No.846532]

>>846453
>I thought this died in 2011?

No, Mark Karpeles created artificial bubbles in 2013, leaving a lot of pennyless bagholders who are now desperate to con others into the scheme so they can get their money back

>>846451
>Bitcoin is useful and scarce which means it has a value.

This is the third time, and the last time, I'm explaining this to you: I am talking about the value it produces, not the value it has.

Bitcoins do not produce value, so in terms of money you only get out what you put in - which means that if people are getting rich quick, it is at the expense of thousands of others.

[Anonymous No.846631]

>>846490

Well he did reappear in 2014 to announce he was not Dorian Nakamoto in a comment on an old account, so that would suggest he is alive and paying attention to Bitcoin, but that account was hacked a few months later. It's possible that the account was already hacked when the initial comment was posted, but it was an old account on an obscure site.

From recollection, Gavin said Satoshi stopped talking to him after was he was informed about the presentation to the CIA back in 2011(?)

By that time he had been posting and interacting publicly for over 3 years, so it's not though his intention was to present it and disappear.

Perhaps he got spooked, disillusioned or tired. I think the third is probably likely, as he had been involved in Bitcoin for 4 years by the time he left, and in mid 2010 he ceased being a core developer. He probably thought handing over the reins and continuing to watch things unfold at a distance was a good idea at that point, given he had got it to public release in 2010, and viral by early 2011.

He has made a lot of forum posts that we can judge him by, and it doesn't seem like the work of a group of people to me. If you look at the history of the idea of cryptocurrency, Bitcoin isn't without precedent, so it's not as though this guy is unimaginable genius (Satoshi even wrote the following: 'Bitcoin is an implementation of Wei Dai‘s b-money proposal on Cypherpunks in 1998 and Nick Szabo’s Bitgold proposal.')

It is interesting though that he did seem to have a belief that it would go big, and wasn't as idealistic in his conception of its future as one might expect to be a symptom of such fervor - both of which suggest to me that this man is well aware he has a fortune and expects to cash in some point. First of all, because of human nature - who wouldn't? Second of all, this guy was pretty serious in his mining. I don't recall the exact details, but I do remember that from the very start he was mining it on not just one computer.

[Anonymous No.846633]

>>846490

He mined for more than an entire year (from Jan 2009 to Jan 2010), which is more than mere testing I'm sure you'll agree - let that fact sink in for a minute; think about how long a year is to you to remain focused on one thing. And a third thing: He created Bitcoin with the intention of it lasting several decades, with block rewards decreasing every 4 years - perhaps he intends to cash out when he reaches retirement?

And when I say he wasn't 'idealistic' I mean he would write posts/messages saying that Bitcoin would essentially work as a pyramid scheme, except without employing the phrase specifically. Consider this quote from one of his earliest messages in Jan 2009 on the Bitcoin mailing list:

>It might make sense just to get some in case it catches on. If enough people think the same way, that becomes a self fulfilling prophecy.

There's other famous comments he makes of course, such as 'I’m sure that in 20 years there will either be very large (bitcoin) transaction volume or no volume', as well as this:

>When someone tries to buy all the world’s supply of a scarce asset, the more they buy the higher the price goes. At some point, it gets too expensive for them to buy any more. It’s great for the people who owned it beforehand because they get to sell it to the corner at crazy high prices.

Another thing I found interesting from his mail-list messages is that, at least early on, he seemed to presume transactions would be feeless until at least the end of block rewards (decades from now). Yet fees are already now necessary, and are set to explode if the block size limit isn't increased.

[Anonymous No.846650]

Doesn't this guy just fucking creep you out?

[Anonymous No.846661]

[Anonymous No.846691]

>>846400
Getting lost isn't part of "consumable" man.

Something like oil, if it were used as a currency, would be consumable. You can either pay people with it, or use it in your car (thus consuming it).

[Anonymous No.846710]

>>846334
The funniest part about this image is that the creator excluded "store of value" from the criteria... Which is absolutely one of the most important characteristics of a good currency.

Imagine being paid in a fixed number of highly volatile bitcoins every week...

[Anonymous No.846713]

>>846334
But seriously, for you to call someone clueless and then post that fucking retarded image in the same post is some serious irony.

[Anonymous No.846724]

>>846691

I presumed the word 'consumable' to mean 'able to be used up'

Bitcoins can also be deliberately 'burned' - sent to a verifiable unspendable address. 2125 BTC have been burned for Counterparty alone.

Though I was not thinking of this at the time, I read that barley, peppercorns, and other consumables have been used as money.

[1 [phone] No.846728]

>>845844
>It's only been trading for 1 day so far and seems to be worth about $3/ETH

I shall keep you in my thoughts and prayers this night my child.

[Anonymous No.846733]

for what it is worth i liquidated all but 1 of my BTC today...

Not like I held a ton of it I just got sick of the price manipulation going on...

Took a bit of a hit ~8% but I am glad I learned from this mistake relatively lightly (didn't put much volume in).

[Anonymous No.846794]

>>846532
Can you show me a currency which "produces value?"

Nice straw man btw

[Anonymous No.846804]

>>846532
>>846794

I was a bit confused by this as well.

Specifically how does USD 'produce value' by itself

or also how does gold produce value by itself

[Anonymous No.846832]

>>846794
Likewise I want to know how money produces value

[Anonymous No.846884]

>>846804
>>846832
Isn't the purpose of money to store value? He's confusing money with income-producing assets.

[Anonymous No.846891]

>>846884
I agree 100% on the storage aspect.

I think there was some confusion over making a currency and stocks equated at some point.

yeah no crap bitcoin won't pay dividend like a stock. same way you can't use a share of XOM to buy more gas at the pump.

Anyways the 'scarcity' of bitcoin is supposed to add to it's value according to some in this thread. same way gold has some sort of 'scarcity' and granted USD isn't scarce it is a demanded currency.

which goes back to the golden rule of value: what I have is worth exactly the amount you are willing to pay.

[Anonymous No.847022]

>>846891
The reason gold has value is due to it's chemical and physical properties.

Easily recognizable
Hard to counterfeit
Durable
Break-able and reassembly
Portability
Scarce and hard to increase supply

There are probably many other reasons people across time and culture accept payment in gold. Gold was found naturally and exists physically. With advances in tech and globalization; speed, reliability and simplicity become attributes money will need.

We've already abstracted our money with credit cards so a digital native currency with the proper attributes seems inevitable.

[Anonymous No.847083]

>>846794
>>846804
>>846832
>>846884
>>846891

I seem not to have communicated my point very well.

If you go back to the original post where I posted that quote from Buffett and said that Bitcoins do not produce anything of value, I was responding to someone saying Bitcoin isn't a pyramid scheme. So I was arguing that it is a pyramid scheme, not that it isn't matter, which is a separate argument.

'Fiat' also does not produce value; that's why it's not a pyramid scheme.

Presumably what you have in your mind after reading this is 'Well Bitcoin doesn't produce value either by your own argument, therefore it's not a pyramid scheme'

That would be true, except - and this is the central point - that people buy Bitcoin in the belief that it will make them money. So this is an assertion that Bitcoin produces value, which is not true. Thus it operates as a pyramid scheme.

[Anonymous No.847085]

>>847083

*So I was arguing that it is a pyramid scheme, not that it isn't money, which is a separate argument.

[Anonymous No.847089]

>>847083

An error in wording there; I should have said the following:

'Fiat' also does not produce value, and no expects or is promised to make money just from holding fiat, therefore it does not act as a pyramid scheme.

[Anonymous No.847095]

OP here

I WAS WRONG!

..in my prediction that Ether would trade at ~$0.50-$1 in a week or two.

It's turned out to be much sooner than that.

Price on Kraken is currently $0.59

That's down from the $3.60 Ethercoin was trading for 48 hours or less ago

Ethercucks BTFO

[Anonymous No.847111]

>>846118
lol i bought btc at 1 dollar faggot, im still winning. By 2020 i'll be legit rich, screen caping posts here to laugh at you later.

[Anonymous No.847113]

>>846532
>which means that if people are getting rich quick, it is at the expense of thousands of others.
anndd this is the basic premise of capitalism faggot

[Anonymous No.847122]

>>847111
>lol i bought btc at 1 dollar faggot, im still winning. By 2020 i'll be legit rich, s

Cool story brah

Where's the proof? Oh wait, you're a bagHODLer

How's that brief correction going? ROFL

>>847113

>He thinks capitalism is a pyramid scheme

Protip: Do ECON101 and learn what 'production' is

[Anonymous No.847123]

>>847095

Only a moron would buy at the original trade price, since it was 10x the pre-sale cost. ETH is a project that will take years and years before the potential is realized.

By the sounds of things, the team have given themselves huge salaries and will run out of money soon if the price doesn't stay above $1.5~ from what I heard.

I'm staying away personally, especially since there's no fixed coin supply.

[Anonymous No.847124]

>>846511

[Anonymous No.847165]

BREAKING NEWS:

Bitcoiners have just been cucked hard:

"Bitstamp is applying for Bitlicense." - @nejc_kodric on Twitter (Co-founder and CEO of Bitstamp)

How does it feel to gag on Government cock :^)

[Anonymous No.847167]

>>847123
Oh god, I fucking lold so hard when I saw how many idiots bought into that Ethereum nonsense a few months back. Seriously, I have never seen more gullible retards than the Bitcoin community

[Anonymous No.847188]

>>847165
As we've all learned from /biz/, chocking on dick is where the money is at.

[Anonymous No.847223]

>>847083
>people buy Bitcoin in the belief that it will make them money.

Bitcoin is just better money.
When transacting online many people prefer a safer more reliable method so they trade fiat currency to bitcoin for convenience. Due to it's nature it's also easier to accept in exchange for services or products online. The people speculating on bitcoin to get rich might be the majority of bitcoin holders I'm not sure but thats irrelevant because bitcoin has utility above and beyond traditional currency.

Bitcoin is known as a risky investment where you can lose money. A pyramid scheme has some authority head promise that you will make money.

Nice goal post moving btw.
>"Bitcoin doesn't produce value"
>"People buy bitcoin for the sole purpose of making money"

[Anonymous No.847262]

>>847111

You do that Skippy.

[Anonymous No.847274]

Hey goys, how long til BTC/USD goes back up to 280$+ because >>>847211

[Anonymous No.847300]

>>847223

>When transacting online many people prefer a safer more reliable method so they trade fiat currency to bitcoin for convenience.

Bitcoin isn't 'safer' than actual money. I challenge you to provide evidence in support of your claim.

>Due to it's nature it's also easier to accept in exchange for services or products online.

No it's not. I know this firsthand as a seller myself, as I looked into accepting Bitcoin and it's far too volatile - you can't even hold on it to for a single day without the risk of wiping out your entire margin and risk losing money. Services like Bitpay whose selling point is that they take the burden of the volatility, have fees similar to Paypal hidden in the exchange rate spread, and for me require $1000 in sales before you can withdraw anything! this makes it risky and pointless, since Paypal is widely accepted and does a better job all-round.

>The people speculating on bitcoin to get rich might be the majority of bitcoin holders I'm not sure

You're not sure? Who are you trying to kid? Nobody is going to fall for your bullshit. That's why the price is down 80% since December 2013 and is continuing to fall despite all the lies promoted by shills in order to get their money back. Look I'm sorry, but the money is gone. It cashed out in the form of Lamborghinis and mansions in 2013. MtGox is gone, which means the internal manipulation which caused the bubbles is gone. Have some dignity and accept your loss, instead of wasting your time trying to induce others into buying your bagholdings - it hasn't worked for the past year+, and it won't work now.

>A pyramid scheme has some authority head promise that you will make money.

No, that is a ponzi scheme. Please educate yourself on these matters instead of attempting to talk out of your ass.

>Nice goal post moving btw.
>>"Bitcoin doesn't produce value"
>>"People buy bitcoin for the sole purpose of making money"

I agree with both of those non-contradicting statements.

[Anonymous No.847483]

Theymos to Bitcoiners: I decide what Bitcoin is going to be.

He, along with his complicit goon 'BashCo' (literally a paid Bitcoin shill - works for changetip), are censoring discussion of Bitcoin XT, the proposed hardfork to Bitcoin to increase block sizes.

In case you don't know, 'Theymos' is a guy in his 20s whose real name is Michael Marquardt, and he controls the Bitcointalk forums, Bitcoin subreddit, the Bitcoin Wiki and previously controlled the Bitcoin block explorer. So much for 'muh decentralization'. Oh, and he also fleeced Bitcoiners out of 6000 BTC ($1.7 million as of now) for a new Bitcoin forum software that never materialized.

Bitcoiners will proclaim to you 'Bitcoin is decentralized! No one can take it down or change it! No individual or government controls it!', oblivious or willfully ignorant to the fact that the Bitcoin software (which is essentially Bitcoin itself, once put into use) is controlled by an elite few - the 'core developers'. They decide what Bitcoin is going to become. They even claim to speak on behalf of Bitcoin, having formed what they call the 'Bitcoin Foundation' and giving positions within it to powerful and rich people whom they mix with. To give you idea, here is a list of the original founding members of The Bitcoin Foundation:

Gavin Andresen, Charlie Shrem, Mark Karpeles, Peter Vessenes, Roger Ver, and Patrick Murck

The first is the former lead developer of Bitcoin, and still very prominent. Shrem is in prison for money laundering to Silk Road. Everyone knows about Karpeles of course. Vessenes stole millions from MtGox, was involved in a number of Bitcoin scam companies (i.e. CoinLab, Bitcoinica), and has done a whole bunch of other shit. Roger Ver is a convicted felon and was barred entry back into the USA after he tore up his citizenship in a regrettable autistic fit. Murck was meant to be the lawyer of the group, so you'd expect him to be clean - don't know enough about him to say.

[Anonymous No.847490]

Direct quote from Theymos, who has responded just minutes ago to someone calling him out on his censorship:

>Adoption of XT by /r/Bitcoin isn't guaranteed even if it is adopted by the the vast majority of the economy. I wouldn't allow any "Bitcoin" that inflates the currency more quickly, for example, so I'd have to consider whether this hardfork is in this "absolutely prohibited" category before allowing it.

[Anonymous No.847493]

>>846126
Yes

[Anonymous No.847798]

>>847300
Key words "transacting online"

When you use a credit card you are susceptible to ID theft and fraud.

You're also incorrectly assuming all merchants when accepting bitcoin are trading for fiat. There are many business models where that's not necessary.

A Ponzi scheme is where you use tom's money to pay off peter when you lie and tell everyone the money comes from some sort of investment.

Smarten up guy.

[Anonymous No.847872]

>>846125

Hold them. Do NOT trade for Ether, that shit is going to sink

[Anonymous No.847878]

>>846181

In itself Bitcoin is as much of a pyramid scheme as fiat currency, only you are pretty much forced to use that. All Bitcoin does is offer an extra option, whether you want to use it or not is entirely up to you.

[Anonymous No.848089]

I expect it was like this the first few years after gold was discovered.

>idiots with muh shiny rocks. What can you buy with that? Cowrie shells are accepted everywhere. Chieftain demands tribute in cowrie shells. If you lose cowrie shells just tell chieftain how many you had and chieftain will give um more shells. If you use gold chieftain won't protect you. Anyway gold is centralised only come from ugug's mine on scary mountain. Cowrie shells are everywhere and accepted everywhere and can be collected from big Chiefs beach.

[Anonymous No.848092]

>>846650
Not really. I think he talks a lot of sense.

[Anonymous No.848093]

>>847872
I think ether is a good investment at $0.60 it could easily overtake ripple to be number 2 market cap in crypto during the next year which would imply a price of $5/ETH

Right now is probably the cheapest it's going to get.

[Anonymous No.848110]

>>847878

>In itself Bitcoin is as much of a pyramid scheme as fiat currency

No, nobody holds actual money with the expectation of making money just by holding onto it.

In fact, if you don't put the money into at least a low-risk investment (i.e. putting in a interest-bearing bank deposit), then you are going to lose money to inflation.

Feel free to dispute the effectiveness of capitalism and Keynesian economics, but don't call it a pyramid scheme which it is not.

Protip: Stop giving Zerohedge and Alex Jones ad revenue, and start reading a textbook on Economics, or listen to a few lectures by Robert Shiller.

>All Bitcoin does is offer an extra option, whether you want to use it or not is entirely up to you.

Yep, and it's garbage, just as most Bitcoiners (ironically) know how garbage Dogecoin is. They can see the truth in other 'coins', but not in their own - it's the same mindset religious nutjobs have, which is basically what Bitcoiners are.

>>848089

>This is what Bitcoiners actually believe

Top kek

>>848092

I agree: http://webm.land/media/U4u8.webm

[Anonymous No.848115]

>>848093
>I think ether is a good investment at $0.60 it could easily overtake ripple to be number 2 market cap in crypto during the next year which would imply a price of $5/ETH

Are you the same guy who said this 48 hours ago?:

>Ethereum is now just behind litecoin for number 3 in market cap. It's only been trading for 1 day so far and seems to be worth about $3/ETH. Which is 10X IPO price. It only has to double and it will overtake ripple to be the number 2.

Someone needs to add the Benny Hill theme to this shit

If you buy Ether, you are gullible as fuck.

First off, the program itself is garbage. Despite being tested for several months, it is so complicated and bad in design that people are mining blocks to a default address that they don't have access to, and a single typo in typing an address for a transaction results in loss of funds (lots of people have already lost money). The devs couldn't even be bothered doing a Windows miner release - users had to work out how to do it themselves. Even as live trading had began, an unknown exchange was sending deposits in error to the black hole 0x0000... address. The UI is unintelligible (see pic). To mine, I had to use two CMD windows in combination.

Second of all, Ether costs much less than $0.60 to mine. On my HD7970, the cost to mine was less than $0.10 per Ether. The people who bought Ether in the premine/presale paid the equivalent of $0.30 per Ether. Who the fuck even wants this shit? It has no mainstream appeal. Miners are dumping it like no tomorrow, and no one is buying because it's trash.

It's made by a 21-year-old slavshit dropout from the University of Waterloo. He has no achievements, not even academic, apart from 'Bitcoin Magazine' and Ethereum itself. He and his team of 'developers' gobbled up the millions of dollars from the presale months before the program was even released!

[Anonymous No.848117]

>>847798
>When you use a credit card you are susceptible to ID theft and fraud.

Every heard of Paypal bro?

>You're also incorrectly assuming all merchants when accepting bitcoin are trading for fiat.

Protip: If you're an actual business and not just operating out of mom's garage, you need to pay for costs with the proceeds of your sales.

>A Ponzi scheme is where you use tom's money to pay off peter when you lie and tell everyone the money comes from some sort of investment.

Which is not what a pyramid scheme is. Bitcoin works as a pyramid scheme. People expect to make money out of it, but in the end you only get out what you put in - and a handful of 'early adopters' just cashed out in the form of Lamborghinis and mansions leaving the rest of you sorry losers with a few remaining crumbs to divide amongst yourselves. So you have to look for greater fools; problem is, you've run out of potential buyers. No one wants your shitcoins. It's over.

[Anonymous No.848124]

>>848115
You have a problem with university of waterloo?

I'm checking the thereum network and I'm seeing it grow day by day. It's still in beta. The bugs will get ironed out and a gui will be released.

I only invested BTC i could afford to lose and currently I'm up quite a considerable amount on that investment.

The question I have to ask you is why are you so butthurt about cryptocurrencies? and do you get lots of hits to your blog by marketing it on 4chan?

[Anonymous No.848126]

>>848117
In that way the entire economy is a pyramid scheme.

>you only buy a house if you think it will increase in value. when you buy a house you are giving money to people who own houses by increasing the price of houses.

A pyramid scheme is quite clearly defined. I suggest you look it up. Calling bitcoin a pyramid scheme is just retarde. How come I own loads of bitcoins without ever paying a cent for them?

I think you're too emotionally invested in the current monetary system. Why do you love banks so much? is your dad a bank manager?

[Anonymous No.848163]

>>848124
>You have a problem with university of waterloo?

My problem is mainly with the fact that he is a dropout with no academic publications or achievements, or even work experience.

>I'm checking the thereum network and I'm seeing it grow day by day. It's still in beta. The bugs will get ironed out and a gui will be released.

You're talking to someone who has mined pretty much every altcoin you can think of. I was also mining Litecoin long before the altcoin bubble began, and I've been around in the Bitcoin world since 2010.

If the developers of some deliberate pump n dump coin can make a working GUI and Windows miner, without funding, then the Ethereum developers - who have burned through millions of dollars of funding - should be at do *at least* that and much, much more.

It's not even as though this is the initial release of what they're been working on. This has been publicly tested for MONTHS, and this is what they come out with as the final working release?

>I only invested BTC i could afford to lose and currently I'm up quite a considerable amount on that investment.

Burden of proof is on you buddy. 9 out of 10 Bitcoin shills say they bought at $5 or less, but the historic exchange volume of course tell the real story - as well as logic, for there must be a great many losers for every great winner (you only get out what you put in).

[Anonymous No.848171]

>>848126

>In that way the entire economy is a pyramid scheme.

'The entire economy' is a very large and complex thing, so I won't make bold claims about it as you seem to think you are justified in doing, but I think it can be said very generally that the economy produces value. For instance it produces goods that improve our lives. When I put my money in the stock of a farming machinery company, that company then has money to build more improved farming machinery, which is then used to produce even more crops. The promised greater return is therefore rooted firmly in reality.

You assert that one would only buy a house if one thinks it is going to increase in value. I posit to you that there is another possible reason why someone might buy a house: Because they require a place of residence, for shelter at the very least.

>A pyramid scheme is quite clearly defined. I suggest you look it up.

Well I included a screenshot of an explanation of a pyramid scheme as my original post's attached image.

>Calling bitcoin a pyramid scheme is just retarde. How come I own loads of bitcoins without ever paying a cent for them?

I don't think this requires an answer. You're making my case for me that Bitcoin has no arguments in its favor, and that it is promoted by a bunch of fools who are desperate to get their money back.

[Anonymous No.848218]

>>848126

>The question I have to ask you is why are you so butthurt about cryptocurrencies? and do you get lots of hits to your blog by marketing it on 4chan?

I wasn't going to respond to this, for you, if I may put it this way, are trying in vain to guide a bowling ball down the alley with gestures and outbursts after having relinquished your grasp of it - but the point of my personal motivations might be worth addressing for those who are genuinely curious.

My motivations for opposing Bitcoin and it's advocates, are similar if not the same motivations atheists have for opposing religion and it's advocates. Or if you're not atheist, the motivations you have for opposing the political 'left' or political 'right'.

I'm sure you've heard it said by some that atheists secretly believe in and/or fear god, but deny him in their hearts, which is the reason for their vocal opposition - after all, why spend so much time trying to disprove what you don't believe exists?

Substitute a few words in that, and that is what the Bitcoiner now claims of Bitcoin 'skeptics'. In both of these cases, what is not understood is that the ideology is being opposed, not because it 'feared', but because it has the potential to inflict real damage upon society due to it being a distortion or break from reality.

But it's not just that it, is it. There's also other motivations that are in the mix. For instance, we are rewarded by a sense of superiority and power whenever we crush our opponents with a particularly strong response, and we are naturally motivated to seek out and indulge in such feelings. You might surmise this as ' for entertainment', or 'for the lulz'.

My articles are on Medium, which you can independently verify do not make any ad revenue. I write for the good of the people, and of course, my own personal enjoyment at the expense of Bitcoin bagHODLers.

[Anonymous No.848305]

So you are a christfag? Is that why you are ideologically opposed to bitcoins? You think it's the mark of the beast?

Why shouldn't I take you and your blog as a bullish contrarian indicator for the whole crypto economy?

[Anonymous No.848318]

>>847165

>ignores the fact Bitfinex the biggest exchange in the US have decided to move out of NY due to Bitlicence

http://cointelegraph.com/news/115089/escape-from-new-york-kraken-paxful-join-bit-exodus

[Anonymous No.848416]

>>848318

You can run, but you can't hide. What are you going to do when unregulated Bitcoin exchanges are cracked down on worldwide?

Goes to show how ridiculously easy it is for national governments to stomp on the pseudonymous nature of Bitcoin. If the only way you can get Bitcoin is through monitored exchanges, then Bitcoin is no longer pseudonymous to use, which makes using it pointless. It might not be obvious to you that Bitcoin will quickly run out of places to run when looking at the 'BitLicence' in just New York, so take a look at what has happened in Australia. All they had to do is treat Bitcoins as a commodity thus charging 10% on every transaction, and the biggest exchange Coinjar was forced to move offshore and now does negligible Australian business. In fact, it's actually a double GST (20%) when you get into the details, but that's a small point.

I don't know how new you are to Bitcoin, but back in 2010/2011, most Bitcoiners actually believed Bitcoin was immune to regulation and other worldly things like fraud. I suspect the MtGox incident in 2011 rid a lot of Bitcoiners of those hopes. I know it did for me. From that point onwards, you could already see the inevitable path laid out - when the 'BitLicence' proposal came out it was just the final insult after the more standard 'Know Your Customer' regulations and so forth.

It's important for a person unfamiliar with Bitcoin's history to not here the change from 'you can't regulate it' to 'you can avoid regulation', and from 'you can't be defrauded' to 'you can avoid fraud'.

One simple way I like to summarize the underlying explanation of these kind of outcomes is this: The exchanges are the centralized weak points of Bitcoin. Because of the way Bitcoin is designed, it actually *necessitates* them. Bitcoin is not a closed-loop system, it is susceptible to identification, fraud, speculation and all these nasty things because the exchanges act as bottleneck entries in and out of the system.

[Anonymous No.848455]

>>848318

My reply was at the character limit, so I didn't include mention of this: Not only is Bitstamp going to comply with the 'BitLicence' regulations, but so are other several big exchanges such as Coinbase.

>>848305

If you want to take the fact that someone opposes you as a 'bullish contrarian indicator', feel free. Don't expect me to say it's an intelligent move on your part though, especially given how many investments you'd have to be actively 'contrarian' and therefore presumably invested in, such as the plethora of altcoins, or more generally stocks such as the National Bank of Greece or Blockbuster.

My ideological opposition against Bitcoin, if you want to call it that (though I would posit the term 'moral opposition' is more accurate), is that it transfers large amounts of wealth from thousands of people to a small few in the form of Lamborghinis and the like. This is theft. And if that isn't enough to be justified in one's outrage against it, it is a deliberately designed mechanism to make 'early adopters' filthy rich at the expense of the downtrodden and vulnerable - who are attracted to it because they are the ones who need an easy way to make money; a 'quick fix' to the problems of life. No doubt many of the people who bought into Bitcoin did so not because they expected to get a mansion, but because they thought it could guarantee for them an adequate standard of living. And let me iterate the point I have just made: This is no mere roll-of-the-dice winner-takes-all gamble; that would not excuse it as a con and act of theft, but it is deliberately skewed so that as a newcomer (i.e. the majority) you *can't* win - or at least, you have a incredibly small chance of winning.

[Anonymous No.848462]

Muslims hate bitcoin.

[Anonymous No.848472]

>>848305

(cont.)

That is my ideological/moral opposition. But personally I feel that material arguments carry more weight. Pointing out Bitcoin's evident self-contradictions convinces the those who are morally aligned as well as morally opposed (or, perhaps in the case of most people, morally ambivalent). For instance, I undermine the very attributes that advocates claim Bitcoin has that makes it a preferable alternative to 'fiat', such as the claims that Bitcoin will preserve your wealth, will secure your wealth, will cost you less, will protect your identity/anonymity, and so forth - I examine and point out volatility, susceptibility to fraud/regulation/speculation, exchange fees, etc. as a direct response to this.

I also point out how the Bitcoin 'network' itself renders impossible, or ensures even the opposite, of these benefits. The block size vs. transaction fee issue for example means that one of these two outcomes must occur: Either transaction fees must increase dramatically, making Bitcoin a means of transfer for the elite few and having ridiculous transaction costs, or blocksizes must increase dramatically which would bring an end to the network (I describe it as turning into a 'frozen' state).

I talk about aspects such as mining as well; how the price of Bitcoin is not regulated by mining and vice-versa, and how this could be deadly, as if the price of Bitcoin were to fall by 50% today (as an example), then miners will turn off and the network will cease to function with no hope of recovery.

So as anyone can plainly see, I don't stake my claim of Bitcoin's current and pending demise based on my moral opposition, but rather explain Bitcoin as a critique of itself. Bitcoin doesn't need to be destroyed; for that itself suffices - but we can gloat at the shitcoiners, and perhaps save a few people from falling for this scam, in the process.

[Anonymous No.848482]

>>848416
>>848455


Very well put.

[Anonymous No.848547]

Bitcoin is haram.

[Anonymous No.849301]

This is how Bitcoin works in real life:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vnm4xFC2xNo

Note the number of Bitcoin bagholders who disliked the video - they can't handle the truth.

[Anonymous No.849315]

>>849301
Or it's just a shitty video (not that I own any bitcoin or even watched the video).

[Anonymous No.849332]

>>849315
>Or it's just a shitty video
>Not that I even watched the video

[Anonymous No.849335]

>>845041
I wonder if the same could be said when coins were first introduced to the world.

[Anonymous No.849336]

>>849335

What are you referring to by 'the same' exactly?

Coins were not 'introduced' as a pyramid scheme, if that's what you mean.

[Anonymous No.849338]

>>849336

I felt as if when coins were introduced people were skeptic of it but google answered that for me.

>"Originally money was a form of receipt, representing grain stored in temple granaries..."

[Anonymous No.849344]

>>848110
>No, nobody holds actual money with the expectation of making money just by holding onto it.


Yes, yes they do. It's called Forex trading. Please stop cherry-picking arguments that are fundamentally flawed.

[Anonymous No.849347]

>>849338

Ingots and units of comparative standardized measurement were around long before coins.

I suspect one of the main reasons for producing coins would have been to make ingots immediately identifiable as likely authentic, and also to standardize weights.

[Anonymous No.849354]

>>849344
>Yes, yes they do. It's called Forex trading.

Trading =/= holding onto it

Forex trading is a zero sum game, as it doesn't produce anything of value as a stock does.

Thus Forex is cut-throat and an easy way of going bankrupt if get involved in it as an amateur individual. Surely everyone here has heard of those 'GET RICH QUICK BY BECOMING A FOREX DAY TRADER NOW!' scams - Bitcoiners take heed.

[Anonymous No.849355]

>>849344
>>849354

Here's some extra reading btw:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_exchange_fraud

[Anonymous No.849357]

>>849344

I have to add, I find it amusing that you point out that Forex Trading is like putting your money in Bitcoin, because although you think of it as an 'Aha, gotcha!', you're actually reinforcing my point that Bitcoin is a scam, as it bears it's closest similarity to that of Forex Trading scams.

[Anonymous No.849376]

>>849357
It is though. If everyone bought US dollars what would happen to the value of the dollar? Do you not buy dollars because it would make existing dollar holders rich? No.

Your analogy is shit and your FUD game is weak.

Try a different flex from this pyramid scheme bullshit. It's not working.

[Anonymous No.849466]

>>849376
>If everyone bought US dollars what would happen to the value of the dollar? Do you not buy dollars because it would make existing dollar holders rich? No.

I don't even know what the fuck you are trying to say

Does anyone else understand what this dude is going on about?

[Anonymous No.849545]

>>849301

No, That's a bitcoin ATM of which there are many models.

[Anonymous No.850392]

>>849466
Bitcoin behaves like any other currency. If more people buy it the price goes up. Would you call Swiss francs a pyramid scheme?

Do you think Swiss francs are so high because people need to buy lederhosen and army knives? No. It's a speculative commodity and a currency. Just like Bitcoin is.

[Anonymous No.850436]

>>850392
Except the difference is the Franc has a lot, an awful lot more utility than bitcoin. The amount of speculation in free-floating or even fixed currencies is almost nothing compared to the amount of speculation in Bitcoin. When over half of the people are only holding onto it so they can sell it off to people more foolish than them, it's a pyramid scheme.

[Anonymous No.850453]

>>850436
You Can probably spend Bitcoin in more places than Swiss francs already. Thus your argument is invalid

[Forex is purposeful even WITH (...) No.850475]

>>850392

The difference between Forex and Bitcoin is that the ability to make money in the former is very limited, whereas Bitcoin is largely unregulated (this is changing).

Forex is an inefficient market, just as all markets are, but it's a hell of a lot more efficient than Bitcoin.

If someone tells you that you can make money out of Forex, you are being scammed: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_exchange_fraud

Let me it clear: If there is currently profit to be made out of Forex (inefficient market), then that *is* a bad thing. This is why effective laws and regulations are necessary to help prevent speculative trading. Nobody is saying 'It's a good thing that a minority are getting rich at the expense of the majority'.

With Bitcoin you have the opposite. Regulation and national laws are actively opposed and avoided. As a consequence people like Mark Karpeles, Danny Brewster, Charlie Shrem, Josh Garza and all the rest can get away with outright fraud and other criminal acts. But it's not just the 'infrastructure' built around Bitcoin, it's the Bitcoin network itself - it is *designed* to benefit a minority of people at the expense of the majority. In a way, the term 'early adopter' is misguiding, because whether you're 'early' or 'late' doesn't matter; what matters is which level of the pyramid you're on, i.e. whether you were no. 40 in the line or no. 400,000.

Now this moralizing is all well and good, but what about the realistic consequences? So what if Bitcoin is a pyramid scheme, they can't stop regulate it anyway. Well, as I have written about at some length, this is NOT the case. Bitcoin is EASILY regulated, as we now see with BitLicence, the double GST in Australia, and so on. You see, Bitcoin's fundamental flaw is that it is convertible to cash. This is perhaps an unavoidable flaw, but nonetheless it means Bitcoin is subject to speculation, fraud (outside of the internal rewards system), regulation, identification, middleman fees, and so forth.

[Anonymous No.850511]

>>848110
>nobody holds actual money with the expectation of making money
Ill take currency trading for 200 alex

[Anonymous No.850516]

>>850511

Read this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_exchange_fraud

[Anonymous No.850518]

Crappy paint job, but illustrates the point

[Anonymous No.850527]

>>850516
There are services that bitcoin can be used for to generate value. Their are lending platforms. Not to mention that when country hopping using bitcoin as a medium you can cut down fees when moving money around. By your logic the whole us economy is a pyramid scheme as 1 percent own 80 percent.

[Anonymous No.850545]

>>850527

>There are services that bitcoin can be used for to generate value.

Although very few such services exist/are used, the Bitcoins themselves don't generate value. You do not produce anything extra by using Bitcoin as opposed to actual money.

One line Bitcoiners like to use is 'Bitcoin allows you to offer a discount'. What these morons fail to realize is that if I can offer a 2% discount because I no longer have to pay the Paypal fee, so can my competitors. And customers don't care about 2% off. They are allured to the 'SALE!!!' sign, but if 2% off becomes normal, they don't care. Look at Apple for instance.

Note: If I could have things my way as a seller, I would have people use bank deposit rather than Bitcoin or Paypal. Bank transfers are free (domestically) in my country, and are planned to be instant in perhaps two years (rather the current 1-2 days). Like Bitcoin, it benefits me as a seller as being pretty much irreversible, but that can be bad for the customer.

I won't even accept Bitcoin as a seller right now because of the extreme volatility and thus necessary middlemen who charge almost as much as Paypal for something that isn't even common/accepted. I don't see that extreme volatility or those middlemen going away either; I think Bitcoin will end up dying once the pyramid scheme runs out of potential buyers (which it's looking like it already has).

[Anonymous No.850546]

>>850527

>Not to mention that when country hopping using bitcoin as a medium you can cut down fees when moving money around

Nope, fees are comparable or even greater than Paypal.

For instance, using my personal PayPal account it only costs me 0.5% + currency exchange fee to transfer money to some bumfuck African country like Malawi.

Oh and btw, you won't be able to avoid currency exchange with Bitcoin. For instance the current Bit Trade Australia rate is AUD$382.50, which should be USD$282.03, but the USD price on Bitstamp is currently $268.61, which means there is a hidden 5% currency exchange fee. Paypal's currency exchange fee is much less than that.

>By your logic the whole us economy is a pyramid scheme as 1 percent own 80 percent.

From a previous reply:

Let me make it clear: If there is currently profit to be made out of Forex (inefficient market), then that *is* a bad thing. This is why effective laws and regulations are necessary to help prevent speculative trading. Nobody is saying 'It's a good thing that a minority are getting rich at the expense of the majority'.

[Anonymous No.850552]

>>850546

Oh and I forgot to mention.. fees are set to increase BIG TIME

Block size vs. transaction fee dilemma

If you increase the block size, nodes will become overburdened (+it might stuff up miners), destroying the network.

So my guess is that they're going to drastically increase required transaction fees instead so blocks remain small (high Tx fee discourages people from making transactions).

They might go for something in-between, like 4MB blocks with moderately increased transaction fees - but if we take the Bitcoiner's argument at face value and hypothesize that the Bitcoin is going to grow eventually to the size of VISA or bigger, then blocks the size of half of a gigabyte will be required, which is unsustainable and so the only other option is to require ridiculous transaction fees to the point where only 1 in a million thinks it rationally worthwhile to transfer via Bitcoin.

[Anonymous No.850559]

You're floundering. Your arguments are falling on deaf ears. Please leave 4chan forever.

[Anonymous No.850575]

>>850559

Thanks for bumping my thread shill :^)

[Anonymous No.850580]

>>850575
ITs totally fine. I just like chatting about Bitcoin. I need threads like this to feed my brain.

[Anonymous No.850607]

>>850475
>>850518

"Bitcoin's fundamental flaw is that it is convertible to cash"

"Bitcoin doesn't produce value"

"Bitcoin Transactions take 1-2 days"

"Bitcoin is a pyramid scheme"

Wtf am I reading it's like an edgy 12 year old complaining about GMO food.

[At least they bump the thread (...) No.850830]

Threadly reminder to watch out for Bitcoin shills (bagholders) in this thread.

Check the catalog and you'll see that there are already several shill threads:

>>850765
>>849918
>>849585
>>845125

Gee, I wonder why they can't leave this thread alone.

Quick and simple way of identifying a Bitcoin shill: Rather than offering counter-arguments, misrepresents the views of opponents repeatedly in order to obscure/stifle criticism and thus mislead readers into remaining ignorant - responses can usually reduced down to 'You're stupid!' or 'This guy thinks Bitcoin is dead/demonic/<insert other strawman here>'

[Anonymous No.850887]

I think people reading this thread will come to the conclusion that you're divorced from reality.

[Anonymous No.850949]

>>850887

Thanks for bumping my thread :^)

[The final twist of the knife No.851790]

Suppose the bagholders don't sell their Bitcoins - what would happen? Would the price stay steady and thus continue to live on diminished, but not dead?

Even if not a single Bitcoin bagholder sells, Bitcoin will inevitably collapse because the miners are pulling out nearly a million dollars every day just to pay for electricity bills. The money that gets funneled out by these miners, the lower the price of Bitcoin goes.

Eventually the price will reach the point at which electricity costs exceed rewards and mining thus becomes irrational. Miners will turn off en masse and the network will be 'frozen'; dead.

Now, if you accept the findings of the 'Willy Report' which reveals that the Bitcoin price bubbles have seen are the result of internal manipulation at MtGox (i.e. buying up $500mil of Bitcoin on the open market with typed numbers not backed by actual money), then one must conclude that not only will Bitcoin stagnate, but it will inevitably come to an end.

This may have been realized by Satoshi who said 'I'm sure that in 20 years there will either be very large transaction volume or no volume.'

[Anonymous No.852157]

Your thread is a joke.

Buy ETH

[Anonymous No.852324]

Isn't the only way to currently acquire ETH via trading other cryptocurrency, ala XBT?

Is there a way to purchase XBT with USD?

[Anonymous No.852524]

>>852324
there probably is somewhere why don't you Google it. Or just buy BTC and change to ETH like a normal person

[Anonymous No.852545]

>>852324
Im done with my BTC. ETH is second gen block chain advancement. It is the next thing.

[Anonymous No.852593]

Could someone explain to me the physical ramifications of mining? Mainly if I'm mining all day erryday, how would that actively harm my GPU in the long run? I would appreciate it as I am dumb and want to learn.

[Anonymous No.852870]

>>852593

GPU mining hasn't been competitive in Bitcoin mining for years, but they can still be used to mine certain altcoins.

Mining is more intensive than gaming, because it'll be doing 100% utilization constantly.

I've read that temperature variation (i.e. 30°C to 70°C and down to 30°C again) has the worst effect, as it melts and cools the solder into a different place eventually causing shorting of the chip.

Because Bitcoin mining keeps your GPU at a constant temperature, unless you over-volt the most likely ill effect is going to be a fan failure due to constant high RPM.

Because mining is not equivalent to gaming, you can often reduce the core clock to reduce temperature and thus also fan RPM.

To give you an idea, here's what my HD7970 has run at:

Furmark: 83°C @ ~60-70% fan RPM
Mining (optimized): 70°C @ ~50% fan RPM
Typical game: 60-70°C (peak) @ ~42-50% fan RPM
Mining (optimized undervolt): 60°C @ ~42% fan RPM

[Anonymous No.852873]

>>852593

Just don't be like this typical bitcoin idiot

[Anonymous No.852880]

>>852870
I've actually got a 7870 but from what I gather, it probably isn't a good idea to GPU mine, is it? Unless I have several spare GPUs lying around which I don't. I was going to attempt mining an altcoin but I believe I've become convinced that it would be a waste of time. Thanks for explaining!

>>852873
>mining with a laptop
Haha oh wow

[Anonymous No.852897]

Here's a little piece of advice regarding Bitcoin, but also life generally:

When some shill goes on about how great Bitcoin is and how you should invest now before it's too late and get filthy rich, ask them 'What sources of information do you have access to, that I don't have access to?'

This is a good question to ask because it not only challenges the claimant to prove what they assert, but it reminds us that these claimants in most cases don't know any more than we do and therefore puts us on our guard.

Let me give you a tangible example of this:

It's late 2013, and the price of Bitcoin is at $1000. The price has skyrocketed 10-fold in just a month or two. Perhaps you have a friend who has bought into the hype, or are reading what Bitcoiners are saying online, and they're all telling you that the price is going to $2000 or $10000 or even higher..

Your instincts and rationality tell you that it is a bubble about to burst, but you said that when the price was at $200.. then $300.. then $500.. and so on. You think to yourself 'I was wrong all those times, so I'm probably wrong now too'. After having ummed and erred all this time and missed out on the rise, you end up saying 'Fuck it, I'm buying in' - almost just to relieve yourself of the frustrations and feelings of guilt at having missed out.

But suppose instead you had focused on the question 'What sources of information do you have access to, that I don't have access to?'.. what would have happened? You would have confronted Bitcoiners with this, and finding no satisfactory response, would have become more assured in yourself that this is in fact a bubble and that Bitcoiners are merely trying to cheat you out of your money in what is a pyramid scheme.

Not how I say 'focus', because that's very important. Because you derive a feeling of superiority and certainty from investigation of the claims, you do not feel the frustration and guilt and doubts that would otherwise plague you.

[Anonymous No.852907]

>>852897

And another great thing about this method is you don't actually have to know *why* this or that is happening (i.e. 'why is the price rising?').

The Willy Report didn't come out until months later revealing the underlying cause of the bubbles, which was internal manipulation at MtGox (buying up on the open market half a billion dollars worth of Bitcoins with non-existent money).

The burden of proof lies solely upon the claimant, as Russell's 'Teapot' analogy illustrates.

I think Buffett has a principle of investing that is essentially this as well, which I'll paraphrase from memory as 'If you don't understand it, don't invest in it'. I remember at least that that's what he said in response to the Dot com bubble and why he wasn't investing in it.

[Anonymous No.852919]

>>852880

I haven't looked up the efficiency ratio of the 7870, but it is probably a good/decent card to mine. Says it does ~400MH/s. My 7970 does 700MH/s, and it's pretty much the most efficient card. AMD is also the useful brand, Nvidia cards are no good.

The best time to GPU mine and immediately profit was in earl 2014 during the altcoin boom, when you could easily make ~$20 a day straightaway, or sit on what you mined for a few days and get much bigger returns (i.e. 10x).

Ethereum just came out, and GPU is or was profitable on it. I had a go at it just to check, and I could make 10 ether ($20 as of now) per day for ~$1 in electricity cost. That's pretty good going.

But if you consider the effects to your GPU, and the time required to set it all up, it's probably not worth it. Usually in mining you can only expect to get $1 for $1 worth of electricity usage - so you really only mine if you believe in the coin's potential to explode in price sometime later.

As has been pointed out though, if you think it's going to explode in price later, why not just buy the coin on the open market?

So my advice would be, only mine with your GPU when it's convenient (i.e. running it overnight for 8 hours) and if you're interested in it.

[Anonymous No.852924]

>>852919
So would you, personally, suggest strictly mining while I'm sleeping and keeping it to that timeframe? I would consider buying the coin instead but as I am rather poor, I cannot afford to potentially waste money which is also a reason why I asked about the GPU harm. I am mainly interested due to reading up on Ethereum, as you had mentioned.

[Anonymous No.852927]

>>852907
I think you're giving the willy report too much weight. Willy report does not prove that willybot = X price for Bitcoin.

There were probably hundreds of bots running all with different aims and strategies. The only difference is willybot was the only one that was discovered to be running on gox.

I don't think Bitcoin will die out. I think something like Ethereum will steal its thunder but it will continue existing for the foreseeable future.

You never know we could go into a long bull market with Bitcoin and people like you will be shouted down and disappear back into the woodwork.

Using Bitcoin is a big fuck you to traditional banking, so for me there will always be a value in using it. And knowing that it pisses YOU off makes it even more valuable to me.

Why don't you go and suck off warren buffet? You think he cares about you? Did he get rich by looking out for the little guy or his own ass?

[Anonymous No.852932]

>>852924
There's a list on the ethereum forum showing the best cards to mine with.

[Anonymous No.852936]

>>852932
Which subforum is it on, and is it in a stickied thread?

[Anonymous No.852937]

>>852924

>So would you, personally, suggest strictly mining while I'm sleeping and keeping it to that timeframe?

It doesn't matter what schedule you have. You could mine for a minute and it would still count, so long as you mining in a pool (don't think Ethereum has pools though.. at least not yet). The point I'm making is that you should just mine when it's convenient, i.e. not forgoing playing a game to mine.

I wouldn't recommend trying to mine Ethereum if there aren't pools yet. Reason being is that you're currently only expected to get a block or two per day. So if you mine for 8 hours, you'll end up with nothing, whereas a pool rewards you with fractions of the block reward even if you don't yourself get the block.

Just taking a look at the Ethereum network stats right now, the hash rate seems to have doubled since I last ran the miner, and given that the 7870 hashes less than 7970, you can probably expect to mine one block (5 Ether, which is $10) *on average* once every ~36 hours.

[Anonymous No.852947]

>>852937
Of course. I just don't want to try mining every spare second I have and take a chance of fucking up my entire computer. Trying to remain cautious.

There is ethpool.org but they do not seem to be accepting new miners. I think a reasonable assessment may be to consider waiting for another pool to pop up and trying to join that then begin mining for a bit.

[Anonymous No.852953]

>>852947
If you're going to buy a graphics card to mine with not having it mine all the time would be a stupid waste of investment. Buy it with a warranty, if it breaks just get it replaced.

There are only so many rewards to be mined. Every second you have it turned off you're wasting money.

[Anonymous No.852956]

>>852927

The Willy Report, and other independent evidence (i.e. the eventual unraveling of Karpeles/MtGox), shows that nearly half a billion dollars of Bitcoin was bought up on the open market with non-existent money.

Now, was that responsible for the entirety of the bubble, or only for getting it started? Probably somewhere in between I would guess, given how enormous the sum of money is but also taking into account speculative fever.

>I don't think Bitcoin will die out.
>You never know we could go into a long bull market with Bitcoin

As I talked about in a few posts just above yours, the question I like to ask is 'What sources of information do you have access to, that I don't have access to?'

Care to tell me what you know that I don't that supports these claims of yours?

>Using Bitcoin is a big fuck you to traditional banking, so for me there will always be a value in using it

If you read my articles in the original post of this thread, you will see how I have torn this argument apart.

I recommend you read them in full and respond to them, but to summarize briefly: Bitcoin is neither revolutionary nor a threat to the 'establishment'. Regulation has already happened, and more severe regulation is coming in now or on the way (i.e. BitLicence). Bitcoin is not even a revolutionary attempt, because it relies on centralized exchanges that introduce fraud, speculation, identification, regulation, fees, and so on. I conclude in one of articles:

The barbarians are not at the gates - they're already well and truly inside, the gates being wide open to them. And it wasn't that anyone held these gates open, but that Bitcoin itself is not a protected closed-loop system.

Bitcoin is just Paypal 2.0; a shittier version that nonetheless generates a lot of excitement, despite the fact that it's Big Brother's wet dream since every transaction is recorded for all to see (even if you bought a hotdog off a beach-side stand).

[Anonymous No.852963]

>>852947

I mined on my HD7970 for a fair while, and both it's chip and fan hasn't failed. I've had it since early 2013.

I mined with the expectation that it would probably last 2-3 years rather than 5+ years. I figured, I buy a new GPU every 3 years or so, so who cares if its lifetime is shortened a bit anyway.

If you're that worried, try undervolting. There is a limit to how much you can undervolt and still get a good hash rate (or have your GPU still working), but for example I lowered my 7970 from 1175mV core default to something like ~900mV (with core clock lowered of course) and only lost ~15-20% hash rate.

Ethereum for example cares only about memory clock, not core clock. So lower core volt and core clock, and try to increase memory clock slightly without overvolting memory (overvolting memory can fuck up your GPU)

[Anonymous No.852968]

>>852953
I'm not buying anything specifically for mining.

>>852963
Alright. I don't exactly remember when I bought this card but I'm fairly certain it was within the past two years so it should last me a fair bit longer anyway. I'll probably go ahead and wait for another pool to pop up then try to begin mining at that point.

[Anonymous No.852975]

>>852927

>I don't think Bitcoin will die out
>And knowing that it pisses YOU off makes it even more valuable to me.

I should have also mentioned that whether Bitcoiners continue to 'HODL' or not, it makes no difference the end outcome.

As I explain here >>851790, miners will continue to dump Bitcoins to pay for electricity bills ensuring the death of the network.

[Anonymous No.853008]

Max Keiserberg in late November 2013 (just before the bubble burst):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NQ-iOwB2P_c

It's of note I think that most Bitcoiners seem to be avid listeners and believers in Max Keiser, Alex Jones, and Zerohedge who all exist to fleece gullible conspiratards and young 'libertarians'.

I put 'libertarian' in quotation marks because they are not worthy of the name. When it comes down to it, it's not actually liberty that they care about or think of as beneficial - what they care about, and what they think actually works is the unrestraint of self-interest (what they call 'freedom') in the form of power. It's why they're obsessed with state power over the individual, and why they rave on about their conception of Bitcoin as a means to assert the power of the individual over the state. You can also see this important distinction manifested in the rampant censorship and circle-jerking they engage in and approve of, much to their own detriment. It doesn't even occur to them that in censoring or ignoring the ideas of others, they deprive themselves of the benefits of free discussion.

[Anonymous No.853020]

Edward Snowden has commented on Bitcoin:

>So, the Bitcoin thing is – I mean this is – nobody really likes to talk about Bitcoin anymore. There are informed concepts there. Obviously, Bitcoin by itself is flawed. The protocol has a lot of weaknesses and transaction sides and a lot of weaknesses that structurally make it vulnerable to people who are trying to own 50 percent of the network and so on and so forth.

Source: https://gist.github.com/mnot/382aca0b23b6bf082116#bitcoin

Shitcoiners BTFO

[Anonymous No.853021]

>>853008
I like max Keiser I think his heart is in the right place.

What's your opinion of ethereum?

Computer science breakthrough or pyramid scheme?

[Anonymous No.853064]

>>853021

Look at what he did with pumping up the silver bubble in 2011 ('Crash JP Morgan, BUY SILVER NOW!')

This dude has a verifiable history of talking out of his ass and shilling his own investments. And remember 'Maxcoin' last year?

Before he was on RT, he was working for Press TV - which perhaps is also where he met George Galloway (whom he has personally interviewed). Anyone familiar with Press TV and Galloway would have reason to be highly suspicious about this man on that basis alone.

He is also a buddy of Alex Jones, who is a morally contemptible and blatantly dishonest scumbag. At first you think the guy is genuinely deluded, but there's plenty of compilation videos on Youtube which reveal how the guy is a fraud who makes money through his channels and his own store in which he sells placebo pills and the infamous water filtration systems.

>What's your opinion of ethereum? Computer science breakthrough or pyramid scheme?

I haven't looked into what Ethereum does specifically, but I suspect it is attempting something similar to what 'Bitshares' attempted.

I get the general jist of 'smart contracts', and the main problem I see with it is lack of interest. I mean, look at what has happened to Bitshares. Also, what Buffett said of Bitcoins probably still applies here: Even if it does something in a better way, why does that make it worth anything? What does it produce? Without investigating, it's probable that this functions as a pyramid scheme just as Bitcoin does. And if it isn't, why put money into it?

This touches on an important point that I think most Bitcoiners just don't get. They don't understand how you can separate 'the blockchain' from 'Bitcoin the currency'. What is meant here is not that the Bitcoin blockchain can function without the currency, but that what matters is what the Bitcoin 'technology' allows us to do - and the 'currency' aspect is actually worthless, like the human appendix. And 'the blockchain' can mean a new 'altcoin'.

[Anonymous No.853086]

>>853021
>>853064

Adding more to that, there is a divergence that occurs now between the desires of the ordinary consumer and of groups (probably corporate and academic) who are interested in the 'technologies' that Bitcoin has given an insight to.

Ordinary consumers, which constitute the vast majority of Bitcoiners, want the benefits of anonymity, free and fast transfers of wealth, and you know the rest. The problem is that Bitcoin has failed this, and there doesn't appear to be a solution. Bitcoin advanced things a bit, but it really only gave us a part of the puzzle. It still necessitates centralized exchanges, and there is no conceivable way to 'decentralize' fiat. Even the conception of a Local Exchange Trading System where actual work is exchanged for Bitcoin is fraught with problems - how do you translate what goes on in the real world into the rigid cryptocurrency system accurately? How do you make it fair and flexible, and how do you determine what these attributes should be exactly?

It can be argued how much progress Bitcoin has made into the problem, but what is certainly wrong is that Bitcoin will make you money. It will not, and should not, as you only get out what you put in - there is no uncertainty about this fact. It would be nice if we could all get rich quick, but the reality is that you only profit at the expense of others (and you're very likely to be one of those 'others' rather than the profiteer). Perhaps a more efficient way of transferring wealth will raise the floor for all of us a bit, but not enough to make us rich - perhaps 2%. The potential for pseudonymity and such I think is a lot more valuable and actually a realistic goal - but not with Bitcoin; a new advancement is required.

[Anonymous No.853151]

>>853064
Got a problem with George Galloway the mans a legend!

I gues me and you come from opposite ends of the political spectrum. You're as much of a cunt as me but in the opposite direction. Well done!

[Anonymous No.853160]

>>853086
I agree with you to a certain extent. Speculators are treating Bitcoin like a get rich quick scheme. BUT it is still a medium of exchange! I don't agree with what you're saying because my own experiences do not match with what you describe Bitcoin as. I personally have never bought a single Bitcoin with money and never sold a single Bitcoin for money! Admittedly it's been a wild ride with the price swings, and a whole load of other people have probably lost money trying to SPECULATE on Bitcoin, but I have got on just fine with it.

That's the Free market in action. You're conflating Bitcoin the currency with SPECULATION. You're basically fine with it as long as it's not popular.

[Anonymous No.853203]

>>853151

>Got a problem with George Galloway the mans a legend!

This is the guy who suckered up to Saddam Hussein, because he profited out of this relationship through the oil-for-food program, and has since straight-out lied about it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YOxrMJd8qxA

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil-for-Food_Programme#Allegations_against_George_Galloway

>>853160

>BUT it is still a medium of exchange!

Anything can be a medium of exchange. The phrase 'medium of exchange' merely means what it says.

What matters I put you are the following promises that have been variously given regarding Bitcoin: That is it pseudonymous, that it is immune to state regulation, that it is immune to fraud, that it is feeless, and that it is a cure for corruption.

It has been throughly demonstrated that it is none of those things. Thus it is just a shittier version of Paypal; there is no use case for it beyond speculation - that is, for it to operate as a pyramid scheme. Of course, all pyramid schemes inevitably come to an end, because you end up running out of potential buyers. Once that happens, and given that MtGox is gone we're probably pretty much there, then the Bitcoin network will cease to function/exist and Bitcoins will become the equivalent of Beanie Babies.

>You're basically fine with it as long as it's not popular.

No, because once the speculative interest dries up (which is currently happening) miners will switch off and the network will cease to be operational.

[Anonymous No.853227]

>>853151

Oh and I just recalled how Galloway has been recently trying to improve his chances of getting back into a position of power (after losing his seat in the recent UK election) by appealing to Bitcoiners:

http://www.businessinsider.com/george-galloway-blockchain-bitcoin-mayorschain-london-2015-7

He certainly knows how to sniff out a crowd of gullible fools.

I put it to others that the association of Bitcoiners with these morally unscrupulous charlatans is no mere coincidence - to be a 'Bitcoiner' you must yourself, at least in one sense, be gullible, and have no moral qualms about lying to others and defrauding them of their money. It's not surprising that they should come together, given that their interests are 'aligned' and that they share 'common ground'.

[Anonymous No.853244]

A discussion of George Galloway's exploits:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GkYge-HziPg

[Anonymous No.853655]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b4LDQixpCa8

No, George Galloway is a legend.

Next you'll be telling me Iraq had WMDs and Saddam Hussein planned 9/11!

[Anonymous No.854004]

>>853655

This is the kind of people Bitcoiners are folks.

Remember also how they have tried to promote Bitcoin as being a currency for Islamic states (surely no ambiguity is left there..) because they claim it bears no interest, in accordance with Islamic law? That hasn't really taken off, but it goes to show that these scumbags will stoop to any level so long as it makes them money.

But, and this I have to say is deserving of the term 'poetic justice', it's not people like me who oppose Bitcoin on moral and rational grounds that they have to worry about, but their own fellow Bitcoiners who are only all too willing to fleece them.

You see, I have no stake in Bitcoin one way or the other. I'm not the one who has or is going to fleece you of your money. The people you should be worried about are your own fellow bagHODLers, who will sell you out the moment it becomes convenient for them. The money you have already lost (80% since the 2013 peak), wasn't stolen by me or the 'paid government shills' or 'the banksters', but by your fellow Bitcoiners; the 'early adopters'.

As for Iraq not having WMDs or not having been involved in 9/11, you can do further reading into the members of Al-Qaeda Saddam Hussein harbored in Iraq, as well as Operation Avarice among other evidence in regards to the WMDs. It's worthwhile noting that the Bush administration never claimed Hussein had direct involvement in 9/11, and I challenge you to provide evidence of this strawman.

Even if we suppose Hussein was not harboring members of Al-Qaeda and did not have WMDs, we also know that he was a genocidal dictator guilty of the most despicable war crimes and therefore an intervention was not only justified but required by international law. At the very least, to express *support* for such a man is outrageous and contemptible. Are you going to deny the al-Anfal Campaign and annexation of Kuwait ever happened to keep up this 'good guy Saddam' rhetoric?

[Anonymous No.854160]

Someone is using Satoshi's old vistomail address to try and strongarm people away from using the Bitcoin XT hard fork (which people like Theymos and some of the developers are trying their darnedest to censor):

https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2015-August/010238.html

Either that, or it really is Satoshi. But I think his GMX account was hacked from memory, and so likely this one too. Plus you might expect some additional verification.

>yfw when you realize that this is actually some Bitcoiner trying to bullshit his fellow Bitcoiners to get his way

And what's interesting to consider is, who would care enough to do this? It must be one of the developers or someone like Theymos surely. This is the act of a desperate man with no other recourse.

Welp, too bad. King Gavin and his buddies are going to make Bitcoin into what he wants, whether you like it or not.

Top kek m8s.

[Anonymous No.854161]

>>854004
Go back to being dead Christopher

Rest in peace ;_;

[Anonymous No.854169]

>>854160

The reason I say it must be Theymos or one of the butthurt developers is because the majority of Bitcoiners seem to be ignorant about the matter and favor the Bitcoin XT fork just because they're swallowed carte blanche the 'bigger blocks = bigger/faster/better network!' argument.

Plus who would have both the money and interest in getting access to Satoshi's hacked email address to post this message?

I doubt any of the developers have enough money, and certainly no ordinary Bitcoin bagholder. Who does have the money, in Bitcoins? Well Theymos did recieve 6000 BTC for that new forum that never materialized. Plus he's been around for a long time, so he probably has he own private stash of Bitcoins, as well as contacts in the seedy Bitcoin underworld.

If it was a hacker/profiteer, they would be asking for money or at least something of value - but there's no such demand; only an attempt into scaring people through presumed authority to drop the Bitcoin XT hard fork.

And Bitcoiners trust these cunts..

[Anonymous No.854194]

BITCOINERS AGAINST BITCOINERS

PRICE ABOUT TO COLLAPSE AS HARD FORK IS ACCEPTED BY SOME BUT NOT ALL??

[Anonymous No.854196]

>>854194

Btw I realize that comic has spelling errors like 'speach' and 'add', but it was made by a Bitcoiner so what do you expect?

[Anonymous No.854207]

>>846733
You should have held it mate

[Anonymous No.854212]

>>848124
I agree with you bro.

[Anonymous No.854214]

>>848218
I think you are a undercover BTC trader

[Anonymous No.854216]

>>854207

Why should he have?

The price when he sold was ~$267-$280

Right now it's at $262, and the price hasn't gone above $270 since he sold

He made the right decision to exit this pyramid scheme while he still can

[Anonymous No.854219]

>>854214

Cool story brah, any evidence, or do you just believe any bullshit rationalization for being a Bitcoin bagHODLer your imagination comes up with?

[Anonymous No.854239]

It's true, I just use bitcoin for faster gambling transactions.

I think it was barely worth it when bitcoin was around $900, now it's just a scam at $260.

[Anonymous No.854736]

>>854004
Lol'd hard, thanks.

You either weren't politically aware in the early 2000's and are relying on Bloomberg and fox for your current events knowlege, or you literally don't know what's going on.

Thanks for confirming my worst suspicions about people who don't like Bitcoin though I guess.

[Anonymous No.854966]

>>854736

>You're wrong because I say so

Strong counter-argument/10

Thanks for the thread bump!

[Anonymous No.855000]

>>854966
You're not wrong, you just have a totally different agenda in life to someone like me.

Your character alignment is Lawful evil, mine is chaotic neutral.

[Anonymous No.855189]

>>855000

>You're not wrong, you just have a totally different agenda in life to someone like me.

And now the shill tries to backtrack after being revealed for the mook he is.

Makes the claim that I'm not aware of what happens in the world, and then when that backfires tries the 'well, everyone, like, has their own opinion, man.. all interpretations are like, equal, dude'

>Your character alignment is Lawful evil, mine is chaotic neutral.

Yeah and I'm Virgo and you're Pisces.

Protip: Stop basing your worldview around memes from /b/ and The Alex Jones Channel if you want to be taken seriously by other people.

[Anonymous No.855196]

Bitcoin is crumbling.

[Anonymous No.855201]

Another failed 'dollar-cost averaging' attempt

Rest in Pieces (RIP) BagHODLers

[Anonymous No.855209]

If you have any friends or family who bought Ether, make sure to give them a call or check in on them today..

[Anonymous No.855215]

>>855209
See what happens. 3 Weeks and we'll know for sure

[Anonymous No.855223]

>>855215

The cost to mine is less than 10 cents per ETH

The writing is on the wall folks

Ether is going to continue to be dumped big time. It got a bit of a boost from the late opening of Poloniex trading, after having crashed within 30 hours from $3.50 to $0.60 on Kraken, but now there's nothing left.

[Anonymous No.855270]

>>855209
I bought it high, sold low, then bought low again and sold high... and ended up in the same place where I started. Then cashed out.

[Anonymous No.855300]

>>852919
awe hes still helping with the miner people thing m

[Anonymous No.855303]

>>854160
>>854004
help us get rich :)

[Anonymous No.855338]

>>855270

Proof?

Oh wait, just another shill claiming he was the lucky 0.0001%

[Anonymous No.855344]

Lord Theymos vs King Gavin - who will win?

Bitcoiners are being cucked by Theymos. He's outright telling them that he decides what Bitcoin is going to be, and if anyone is going to say otherwise, he's going to censor them.

This is what Bitcoin is folks. It's not only garbage, it's immoral.

From my article '5 reasons why NOT to buy into the Bitcoin hype':

5. “It's a social revolution worthy of my support..” Look at the top knobs in Bitcoin right now. The most prominent ones, if you don't want to think of it as a hierarchy. The 'space' is infested with thugs, frauds and sociopaths. Karpeles, Shrem, Ver, Zhou Tong/Ryan Zhou or whatever name he goes by nowadays.. they're all convicted frauds. 'Lukejr' is an ideologue, Brewster (of Neo&Bee) was perhaps naive but nonetheless a fraud, Antonopoulos is perhaps also in the same category (note his involvements in Neo&Bee and Blockchain.info), Theymos is not yet convicted but his guilt is no doubt evident to even most Bitcoiners. Same with Garza and to a lesser extent the drug-addled fiend behind 'Sean's Outpost' (lookup Jason King's previous 'ScrollQuest' fraud if you think he's just a naive do-gooder victim). The 'Bitcoin Foundation', a self-proclaimed authority, attracts all manner of sociopaths including child molesters (Brock Pierce) as well as liars (anyone observing the shit-flinging over the internal 'minutes' will know this). It's not just immoral, it's also inefficient - The Bitcoin Foundation, Bitpay, etc. are all on the verge of Bankruptcy. Neo&Bee and countless exchanges have already gone under. Mostly due to staggeringly stupid decisions, such as Neo&Bee's primetime ads on televised Football matches, or Bitpay's 'Bitcoin bowl' stunt, or Theymos and his million dollar forum. Ask yourself: Is this a change from the traditional system? Has Bitcoin taken away the element of 'corruption' or 'inefficiency'? Is this what you want to support?

[Bow down before your King No.855352]

>Bitcucks

[Anonymous No.855355]

>all these faggots investing saying bitcoin is garbo
>I just buy things off the internet with them and only hold bitcoins for minutes before I spend them
>like you're actually supposed to fucking do
>it works perfectly
You're just mad because you can't kike the system as easily.

[Anonymous No.855361]

>>855355

>I just buy things off the internet with them and only hold bitcoins for minutes before I spend them
>it works perfectly

Oh really.. so what kind of fee are you paying overall for the exchange fees, transaction fees, and intra-minute volatility, 10%?

And what are you buying? 'Time for Plan B' stickers?

[Anonymous No.855386]

You know, I used to think that Theymos was an actual libertarian - in a blinkered and religious way, just like pacifists who wouldn't intervene in the rape of their children granted the choice.

But what we see of him come to the fore now is a man willing to do anything to have his way. He approves of censorship without any qualms or giving any excuses whatsoever. He's not even hiding behind the lame 'spam' and 'troll' reasons that Bitcoiners are all too willing to gobble up and still see him as a libertarian - he is saying he is banning discussion of the proposed Bitcoin fork because he personally disapproves of it, as well as anyone who participates in it (you will have to appeal to his majesty for a royal pardon should he ban you in error). These purges are none other than acts of a tyrant/dictator.

It's also of note that in his sticky, he mentions the recent message posted to the mailing list that is supposedly by Satoshi. Obviously there's every reason to be skeptical it's actually him, since somebody might have got access to his email address (it happened with his GMX email address), but Theymos isn't dismissive about and it and concludes 'whether he's actually Satoshi or not, I agree with what he's saying.'

This is all the more suggestive to me of my initial intuition that Theymos must be behind the Satoshi message calling for an end to the Bitcoin XT fork. I reason that only Theymos would have the money and interest to a) get access to the old email account, and b) write such a message without making any demands for something of value.

So much for Bitcoin being decentralized, when one man controls what Bitcoin is (or otherwise, King Gavin and his two consorts). So much for Bitcoiners being 'libertarians' - as I explain in more detail here >>853008, Bitcoiners aren't really libertarians; they only desire unrestraint of self-interest in the form of power, which they have thus far in live not had due to their lowly social state and influence.

[Anonymous No.855390]

>>855386

Forgot to add point of included picture..

>16 hours A DAY for the last 2 years. I have brought in less than 0.5 BTC for my work.

My sides

HE DOES IT FOR FREE!

[Anonymous No.855638]

Who's your preferred labour leadership candidate?

[Anonymous No.855653]

>>855638

>labour

I'm not from the UK soz

[Anonymous No.855654]

C U C K E D
U
C
K
E
D

[Anonymous No.855890]

>>855338
proof of what? of how I ended up neither losing nor earning anything? I wouldn't call that being lucky.

Lucky are the people who bought in the presale and could take advantage of it at opening day on the exchanges.

[Anonymous No.855917]

>>855654
>ultra butthurt
>continues to post there anyhow

[Anonymous No.856146]

>>845658

that guy is autistic as fuck

[Anonymous No.856273]

>>855890

Soz, I misread you as saying 'I bought it low, sold high, then bought low again and sold high' and skipped over the second middle half of the sentence

I've become so used to the 'Well I bought Bitcoin at $5, u jelly?' response whenever there's a crash that I must have started assuming it automatically as the next thing said.