/biz/ - Business & Finance

[Anonymous No.673036]

Why do we need minimum wage again? Oh right, it's to take cash from productive people and give it away to lazy and retarded.

>inb4 buttmad liberals who never owned a business
>inb4 tumblr faggots who don't understand that illiterate nigger shuffling boxes around isn't worth 15$/hour
>inb4 trust fund babbies thinking they know anything

[Anonymous No.673039]

It speeds up automation.

[Anonymous No.673043]

It lets us outsource manufacturing and transition to a service economy.

[Anonymous No.673046]

>Implying areas that have raised minimum wage have turned into productiveness ghettos.

[Anonymous No.673052]

>>673039
Great, now we have shit ton of unemployment on welfare, getting sweet sweet cash for being too lazy to learn a valuable skill.

>>673043
>outsourcing of manufacturing to a service economy
Yes, because that's what a service economy is. Back to econ 101.

>>673046
I'm implying that they are now binary mix of welfare queens and people with marketable skills that are still cheaper than machines (or simply irreplaceable). Guess what happens when min wage rises again and the machines are cheaper.

[Anonymous No.673055]

>>673036
Sounds like you just finished Economics 101. Now try some higher level courses OP.

[Anonymous No.673059]

If we had a truly free market, then yes, minimum wage is a negative

However, the US barely resembles a free market, and things like minimum wage and labor unions are needed.

Before anyone who doesn't understand economics or sees the world in black and white extremes, I voted libertarian the past four presidential cycles.

[Anonymous No.673062]

>>673059
The U.S. is a mixed market economy like all modern industrialized nations.

[Anonymous No.673066]

It would take you literally five minutes of research to figure out that minimum wage hurts poor workers more than anyone else.

[Anonymous No.673068]

>>673036
>>673052
Because it's a necessary evil. If we didn't have minimum wage and welfare what do you think would happen? Oh right 100x increase in violence, angry "youths" and liberals would burn down and pillage Universities and Businesses.

[Anonymous No.673070]

>>673036
some of the most physicallly demanding jobs are low paid/minimum wage. If minimum wage didnt exist them employees would simply exploit those workers with even lower wages. Now I understand that such workers cannot be highly paid but they are definately more capable than some sickly jew or some fat bank manager who have not done a single physically demanding activity in their entire lives.

[Anonymous No.673080]

>>673055
Into first category you go. Don't worry, machine run post scarcity system is just behind the corner, where everybody will work for fun because they love a fulfilling life (and nobody will spend more than they need, because who can eat five meals at once or live in five houses or drive five luxury yachts).

>>673068
Yep, giving jobs to people certainly gives them free time to be a delinquent and free cash for doing nothing totally isn't enabling. I'm not against welfare per se, I just find it funny that so many people capable of work won't or can't find a job and still get paid. You are a nigger/autistic high school dropout with no skills, why would you work like a horse when you can collect autismbux or muh reparations. Inb4 /pol/, go check out the faggots on /r9k/.

>>673070
>Now I understand that such workers cannot be highly paid but they are definately more capable than some sickly jew or some fat bank manager who have not done a single physically demanding activity in their entire lives.
Jesus fuck you actually physically disgust me. Let's put a person with no GED to run a large bank which holds your cash and put a highly educated and skilled man to shuffle boxes around. Equality brah, peace brah. Here's the thing: you could train a monkey to move boxes around. A monkey. We'd use monkeys if we could, they work for food. Call me when you train a monkey to run a multinational blue chip organisation well enough that you'd invest in one.

[Anonymous No.673081]

>>673036
QUITE the contrary, the nigger flipping burgers is worth much more than 15$ and hour. The CEO is worth MUCH MUCH less than the 7500$ an hour he is paid though.

Many CEOS still earn a shitton of money while the company is underperforming or even going bankrupt because of THEIR shit tier desicion making. Yet they are still paid for it.

[Anonymous No.673086]

>>673081
Oh well that's settled then, tell Google you'll work for 20$/hr as their CEO. When the security escorts you, go to your local McD and ask for 200$/hr burger flipper job. Bonus points if you record it all so we can laugh at your dumb ass.

[Anonymous No.673091]

>>673080
>Yep, giving jobs to people certainly gives them free time to be a delinquent and free cash for doing nothing totally isn't enabling. I'm not against welfare per se, I just find it funny that so many people capable of work won't or can't find a job and still get paid. You are a nigger/autistic high school dropout with no skills, why would you work like a horse when you can collect autismbux or muh reparations. Inb4 /pol/, go check out the faggots on /r9k/.

wtf? Which part do you think I'm disagreeing with you on? I'm simply saying that retards outnumber the non-retards, so if we remove minimum wage and welfare the retards would revolt and wreck havoc.

[Anonymous No.673097]

>>673066

So what exactly happens when you have a recession or high unemployment and it becomes a race to the bottom?

[Anonymous No.673101]

>>673080
Just because a CEO is more skilled does not mean that they provide exponentially higher levels of value for the company. A so-so ceo might even be harming the company, and a company might indeed be better of with a box packer.

>not knowing that a shitton of TOP TIER entrepeneurs have NO education whatsoever

[Anonymous No.673106]

>>673080
I am not against education or educated people. However alot of top business people have poor education or even no education they are just parasites that are good at "politics" (while many really intelligent people have to work under them because they are not scumbags). However the point is that such parasites should not be in position to make important decisions that affect normal peoples lives (usually in a negative way)

[Anonymous No.673109]

>>673086
Im not arguing that they should be paid the same you drooling retard. Just that maybe the proportions are out of touch with the actual net value they bring to the company.

a ceo might as well be paid 1000000000$ an hour making the company go bankrupt.

You are fking retarded though, and probably know nothing about economics and could probably still argue that it makes sense because its "fair".

[Anonymous No.673111]

>>673036
If the nigger shuffling boxes wasn't worth the minimum wage, then nobody would hire him.
Econ 101 bubby.

[Anonymous No.673113]

Also there's INFINITE examples of SHIT tier risk'-management (and management in general) making companies go bankrupt since the fking dawn of time
Did these droling retards deserve to be paid more than say... 300$ an hour? not really... Yet they made 2 million yearly, easely.

[Anonymous No.673118]

>>673111
guy is fking retarded. Lets fire all the workers at mcdonalds and lets see how much value the higher ups can make before the stock is worth 0.01$.

[Anonymous No.673119]

>>673109
>a ceo might as well be paid 1000000000$ an hour making the company go bankrupt.

Well, if that's what the shareholders want, then it's okay. If the shareholders don't want that, they'd replace the CEO. It's not hard to understand.

[Anonymous No.673120]

>>673109
There's a reaosn for this

Literally every person in america can work shit-tier pleb jobs.
Very few are capable of being good CEOs. Their value is increased by the scarcity of people with their competence.

[Anonymous No.673122]

>>673119
>you actually think the shareholders hold a majority stake in the company and can decide wages

are
u
fkin
retar
ded

All fking blue chip stocks have a majority stake in their fking company.

[Anonymous No.673124]

>>673122
Yes, the shareholders own a majority stake. That's sorta the definition.

[Anonymous No.673137]

>>673055
Nah, he claims to own a business. He likely has no education on the subject and is upset that his business doesn't get as much profit as he'd like. So instead of fixing the fundamentals of his business he blames the government, just like the people he's crying about.

[Anonymous No.673140]

>>673120
That is not the case though.

Its because their vages have been severely inflated. It is just like this because it has always been like this in the USA: In Denmark CEOS make much less. And indeed some of them are way more capable than heads at us blue chip stock corps.

Cisco dumbass ceo has for instance done shit for the last 20 years.

Meanwhile GENMAB.CO ceo has made the stock hit the moon up 1415% over 10 years.

You can't just fire a ceo and replace him with a new one, on paper it sounds like thats how it works but in reality it never is like this.

[Anonymous No.673141]

>>673124
You do know that the company owns shares as well right?

above 51%.

[Anonymous No.673143]

>>673059
>Voting for Ron Paul

How's it feel to vote for the meme party?

[Anonymous No.673146]

>>673141
Which company are you referring to?

[Anonymous No.673155]

>>673091
My bad, I misunderstood. Upon rereading your post I do agree it would be really hard to switch to that due to sheer amount of people doing the slippery slope of "I'll be working for peanuts tomorrow".

>>673097
>recession
There are plenty of studies that link fixed minimum wage with recession. They also find that increasing minimum wage tends to decrease employment thus further worsening the recession.
http://www.nber.org/papers/w20724

>will be working for peanuts argument
Do I really have to go over this? It has been argued to death.

>>673101
>Just because a CEO is more skilled does not mean that they provide exponentially higher levels of value for the company. A so-so ceo might even be harming the company, and a company might indeed be better of with a box packer.
Again, get a money or a box packer to run a company. Invest a substantial amount of money to prove you aren't just bullshiting. Call me.
>>not knowing that a shitton of TOP TIER entrepeneurs have NO education whatsoever
No *formal* education. They didn't become top tier in a blink of an eye, they worked for it much harder than your average college student.

>>673106
>I am not against education or educated people. However alot of top business people have poor education or even no education they are just parasites that are good at "politics" (while many really intelligent people have to work under them because they are not scumbags). However the point is that such parasites should not be in position to make important decisions that affect normal peoples lives (usually in a negative way)
See above. You are assuming CEOs are just a bunch of faggots that grew like a magic mushroom on top of Apple or Microsoft or something. You are supposed to hire smart people (trust me, I've seen companies that you are talking about, they fail within a year) to work under you.
I mean, shit, how do you imagine those "parasites" get there in the first place?

[Anonymous No.673158]

>>673109
Again, try that, post video.

>>673111
Yep, which is why instead of hiring 10 niggers you hire a nigger and buy a forklift, given that cost over next 5-10 years is lower. Like the guy above said, automatisation.

>>673113
There are shit load of rich scammers, what exactly is your point?

>>673119
This. CEO is a job like any else. You hire a guy who seems like he can do the job and you hope he isn't a tard in disguise. Sometimes you get conned, sometimes you get more than you paid for. Sometimes you can't help the circumstances. Such is life.

[Anonymous No.673161]

>>673146
facebook as an extreme example.
suckerberg still owns 51% himself.

[Anonymous No.673164]

>>673161
and as a 51% owner, he gets to do what he wants. Investors took a risk when they bought it. What's the problem?

PS, he owns 28%.

[Anonymous No.673167]

>>673164
name one blue chip company that doesnt have controlling interest...

[Anonymous No.673170]

>>673140
Man would think that USA market would pay them a hefty sum to do the same magic for them in the US. Oh wait...

>>673137
>He likely has no education on the subject and is upset that his business doesn't get as much profit as he'd like.
Keep projecting.

>So instead of fixing the fundamentals of his business he blames the government, just like the people he's crying about.
Funny, I'm probably gonna fire a few minimum wage (literal) shit shufflers in favour of a mechanical equivalent. It's a big investment but it does double the work for half the money (including electricity, repairs and maintenance). In teo years I'll repay the capital cost but I guess what will happen to the workers.

[Anonymous No.673172]

>>673167
You are retarded. Only around 8% of publicly traded companies have controlling interest.

http://irrcinstitute.org/pdf/FINAL-Controlled-Company-ISS-Report.pdf

I'm done here, don't bother replying. Victory is mine, and it's delicious.

[Anonymous No.673173]

>>673170
Because switching a ceo is just something a company can do on a yearly basis....

[Anonymous No.673174]

>>673080
>2015
>choosing monkeys over robots and automation

Remind me why you think you're smart again?

Also, where is your monkey personnel company?
If it's possible, where are the monkey factories?
Monkey warehouses?

>implying supervising monkeys is easier than humans
>implying monkeys or even robots would do every shit tier job as well
>implying you would call a monkey engineer to fix your automated assembly line
>implying rich fat lazy fucks won't be the first ones eaten alive if the world's economy is stretched any further
>implying we should encourage crime even more (it's already starting to look more & more like a viable career choice - maximum tax benefits)

[Anonymous No.673176]

You pay minimum wage because we consider ourselves to be part of the first world. This also requires us to create a habitable environment for people who are less fortunate.

Being dumb doesnt mean that youre lazy. Maybe you never graduated college becuase you grew up in a fucked up family? How is that you fault? Minimum wage still isnt enough because most people cant live off of it. And I honestly have the opinion that if you work 40+ hours a week you should have the constitutional right to pay for your modest expenses. And I am talking about people who really work, not the clowns who sit around and browse Facebook all day (unless they work in fucking security).

You might call this liberal bullshit, I call it decency. There are plenty of people who work their ass off in a minimum wage job.

[Anonymous No.673177]

>>673036

There isn't conclusive evidence that the minimum wage has an impact on employment or economic growth, one way or the other, most studies think it's neutral. The real question is why shouldn't we have a minimum wage?

[Anonymous No.673179]

>>673173
If you are gonna do the "hurr I'm not retarded I'm just trolling" at least make it look believable.
If the Dutch have god tier CEOs, how come they aren't offered impressive sums of money to run US companies? I mean, how much is "1500% in a few years" guy worth to Microsoft? Apple?
Stop talking out your ass man.

>>673174
Cool strawman brah.

>>673177
http://www.nber.org/papers/w20724

[Anonymous No.673185]

An old joke with a couple of variations -

What's the difference between your boss taking a week off and the cleaner taking a week off?

When the boss takes a week off, nobody cares.

OR -

When your boss takes the day off, few people even notice.
When the cleaner takes the day off,
Everyone notices.

OR...

When your boss takes the day off, everyone is relieved.
When the guy who cleans the toilets takes a day off, nobody relieves themselves..

[Anonymous No.673188]

>>673185
When the boss takes a day off, nobody gives a shit..
When the cleaner takes a day off, nobody takes a shit...

[Anonymous No.673205]

>>673176
>You pay minimum wage because we consider ourselves to be part of the first world. This also requires us to create a habitable environment for people who are less fortunate.
I don't see how those two sentences connect (especially when you look at second world countries), but yeah, I can agree with you.
>Being dumb doesnt mean that youre lazy. Maybe you never graduated college becuase you grew up in a fucked up family?
Not to be a faggot here, but I feel the need to point out that college isn't nearly the ticket to wealth it used to be. Take blue collar jobs and trades that pay better than ever.

>Minimum wage still isnt enough because most people cant live off of it. And I honestly have the opinion that if you work 40+ hours a week you should have the constitutional right to pay for your modest expenses.
Here's the thing: hard work is not always useful work or worthy work. Like the anon above pointed out "hurr durr CEO better paid than man who dig ditches hurr", not all skills are equal. Then again, what *are* modest expenses? Is it food and shelter? If you have been a student I'm sure you learned that man can indeed live on a part time minimum wage job.


>>673185
>>673188
Damn kid you butthurt. I have one for you - what's the difference between a toilet cleaner and your boss? Your boss is feeding your ass and if you don't like it, you can quit and blow the toilet cleaner for food.

[Anonymous No.673210]

>>673179
No strawman, just fact.
I have yet to see any more keys put to employ in any capacity other than an organ grinder or hotel porter.

One or two may work alone, but a team of monkeys would throw shit at each other or eat each other rather than wait for banana lunch time.

You'd think some natives would have rounded up a few and put them to work doing menial work by now, but no, humans have been the main choice for centuries.

Monkeys, or primates in general, may seem smart in lab experiments, but that is literally the cream of the crop selected and trained day after day for years just to get them to do a handful of semi-impressive things you could teach a dog to do in a few hours.

Primates in general are a bit overrated task wise.
And they don't generally co-operate without being reared from birth and endless repetition and reward.

What's the smartest primate you can name?

[Anonymous No.673212]

>>673036

Feel free to time travel back to 1850 where the unregulated free market was so fair and just to the common worker.

God you Laisez fairre faggots are retarded.

[Anonymous No.673213]

>>673036

Minimum wages are fine when your country is homogenous and white and hardworking. Everyone should be able to live off any job no matter how low in the USA.

But, when you add minorities into the mix it doesn't work. Multiculturalism + Socialist economics is a classic nationwrecking combination.

[Anonymous No.673216]

>>673036

Oh BTW, since you just swallowed the Econ 1101 Bullshit hook line and sinker, why don't you go visit your local Baptist church and have them "pray the demons out of you" while your at it.

ya know since you just accept view points without any critical logic or assessment of past history.

[Anonymous No.673220]

>>673066

Oh ok.

How about prohibiting people under 18 for dangerous labor?

How about overtime regs?

Safety regs?

Discrimination laws?

I guess all that stuff hurt our economy too. Really none of that stuff should have been done right?

God I need to leave this forum.

[Anonymous No.673221]

You should basic income OP.

[Anonymous No.673232]

>>673205
I'm not even butthurt, those literally are popular old jokes.
I didn't make them up myself.
It was supposed to be a lighthearted distraction.

It does illustrate a point though, most functions could be done by the bosses VP, assistant manager, supervisors, etc - most stopped adding value years ago, and the cold, hard truth is, literally every level below him unclenches their buttocks and is relieved, and in my experience, everything runs smoother, without him.

They could take 6 months off and nobody would care, the keys should be handed down quicker and the boss should retire to Belize earlier and cash out to make some room, instead of walking around every hour or so pretending he has a real job.

Decisions and meetings can be delegated,
We have teleconferencing or Skype for meetings,
Why does he even bother?

Your one is less funny, though.

[Anonymous No.673239]

>mfw i've benefited from federal hand outs
>mfw i've had a minimum wage job

:^)

you can always move to another country op

[Anonymous No.673249]

>>673179
no. Contrary to what you think many people are happy earning 1 mill dollar a year and dont have a particular need to earn 10 mill...

If you can honestly defend that any ceo is worth 350 times as much as a doctor you are completely retarded.

[Anonymous No.673252]

>>673066
>guy on the right gets wage increase
>higher standard of living
>pays more tax
>tax goes back into the system
>guy on left is cut a redundancy cheque
>more money than most McJobbers ever save
>more options for him now
>his next job will be higher paid regardless
>guy on right must be better worker
>employer gets same work done for almost $3 less
>more efficiency


Problem. /biz/?

[Anonymous No.673266]

>>673210
>not strawman just facts brah
Yes, facts about your strawman. Is he also made out of out straw?
>smartest primate
I appreciate Da Vinci a lot.

>>673212
Feel free to hire Jamal and Shaniqua because government will fuck your ass raw because you don't have enough of every ethnicity in your company, regardless of their merit. You know, because now it's absolutely fair.

>>673213
God damn how come Germans aren't ruling the world yet. I'm genuinely wondering.

>>673216
Well good you have some unbiased analysis to contribute :^)

>>673232
Fair point about inefficient corporate structures. As someone who runs a small business, I'm pretty involved in everything that's happening. I don't think I could go away for a week and find everything working perfectly.

>>673249
Yes, I'm sure that Dutch aren't attracted to material goods like us mere mortals, but you do know that there are incentives other than money.

[Anonymous No.673289]

>>673036

op also thinks slave labor would be ok.

op also thinks that indentured servitude is a societal model that we should strive for.

op dropped out of highschool and is actively fucking his sister.

op works for minimum wage and is one of the brainwashed fox news idiots that would actually benefit from the so-called "liberal agenda" of educating our citizens and building up a middle class.

toppest of keks.

[Anonymous No.673300]

>>673266
>strawman
You keep using monkeys as a literal example, instead of say, automation, so it's hard to take anything else you say seriously.
I'm giving you a counterpoint on this one issue, you are not.

>Da Vinci
10/10
I would've gotten away with that one if it wasn't for you pesky kids....

[Anonymous No.673514]

>>673036
Any economist will say a society where income is more evenly distributed is better than one where it is concentrated in the hands of very few. How you get there is the issue because income redistribution does stall the economy.

You can only tax individuals so much. Having a large middle class to tax is better for the government than trying to squeeze a few smart individuals who will find ways to dodge your taxes.

So as CEO, you getting the all the pay is not good for the country.

[Anonymous No.673810]

>>673036
raising the minimum wage isn't bad. but it does depend on the economic climate and situation.

if you're a worker, you need to look at the income elasticity. if its less than 1, then raising the min wage is good for you, if its more than 1 (which it is atm) then its bad for you.

also raising the min wage by a large amount is always a terrible idea, they need to raise it slowly by small amounts, and see how the economy reacts.

[Anonymous No.673824]

>>673036
If there is no min wage, desperate people would work for next to nothing and still not have enought to sustain himself
thegovt want people to keep their dignity

[Anonymous No.673826]

>>673119
Shareholders can only elect the board you fucking idiot. The board chooses chief management officers.

All of your opinions after this are now invalidated

[Anonymous No.673830]

>>673122
Holy Fuck no they don't. Is all /biz/ this retarded??

[Anonymous No.673834]

>>673122
GE
PEPSI
COCA COLA
APPLE

those are the first the I looked up and none of them have a voting majority you fucking idiot

[Anonymous No.673857]

>>673824
[citation needed]

Also, the minimum wage could be arbitrarily set by the payments from social security.

Some countries have a gap between Social Security payments and the minimum wage, meaning that even if you would like to work for less than the minimum wage to earn more than you do from social security, you can't.