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/biz/ - Business & Finance

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6080659 No.6080659 [Reply] [Original]

>every single coin to coin/coin to fiat transaction is a "Taxable event"

What do?

>> No.6080722

>>6080659
you're saying you are trying to pay taxes on binance exchanges?
lol

>> No.6080786

>>6080659
dont pay it

>> No.6080843

>>6080659
Get a self directed IRA with checkbook control. So long as your money is in the market or the IRA account you don't pay anything.

Want your money? Roll over some money into another IRA and do 72(t) withdraws to basically be retired.

>> No.6080854

pay your taxes. audits are hell. Sign up for a site like cointracking dot info where you can input all your API keys, and it will create a log of all trades you have made.

They will get broken out into short term and long term capital gains and it gives you an amount owed. Personally I doubt the IRS will be able to track any of this in the short term, but if they come back in 3 years and can figure out all the money you owe it could be a nightmare. Keeping up with it now keeps you off the radar imo.

>> No.6081026

>>6080722
I'm trying to avoid getting interrupted by the IRS while enjoying myself with bunch of Taiwanese Trap hawties manee

>> No.6081130

uhmmmmmmm what coin are you cashing out in fiat with ya dig..not a lot of fucking options right now...some of us have been doing fine..yes there are taxes now....cash out now or you will go to prison...ya dig

>> No.6081199

move to Canada

>> No.6081298

salt loan and default?

>> No.6081327

>>6081199
wouldn't the IRS track me down even if I cashed out in other country desu ne?

>> No.6081493

Only pay tax if you withdraw in usa currency

>> No.6081690

>>6081493
I can imagine the IRS would some how jail me for Money Laundering, but if what you said it true, thanks you Senpai. I'll reserve a flight to Germany

>> No.6081733

I think it's asinine that coin to coin transactions are taxed

>> No.6081949

>>6080659
Does the IRS accept bitcoin? Are they forcing me to cash out to pay the fees on my trades? Do I deduct the transaction fees required to cash out?

>> No.6081988
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6081988

>>6080659

>>5554083

>> No.6082012

>>6081949
no they don't accept crypto
you have to cash out to pay coin to coin and then they tax you again cause you just cashed out

>> No.6082047

What happens if you hold an altcoin for a year? How the hell can you get a long term capital gains tax when you have to convert it to bitcoin to sell for fiat?

>> No.6082126

>>6080854
Cointracking.info, this isnt a scam right.

>> No.6082139

>>6080659
If a jew ever tells the truth to the goyim, do they die?

>"Buys" 1BTC worth of ETH
>'taxable event' for $15,000
>immediate expense for $15,050 after transaction fees
>literally showing a loss and $0 taxable income

>> No.6082155

>>6080659
Bitcoin.tax

I just did mine today, was pretty easy. Had to review everything and make edits as needed / manually input small exchanges. But, well worth it. It seemed to do a good job, only $20. Now I don't have to worry about the IRS pounding my asshole.

>> No.6082165

>>6082047
we need something that can convert alts directly to fiat

>> No.6082196

>>6082155
How much did you pay in taxes?

>> No.6082208

>>6082126
When you make api keys you can give them the ability to trade or not... Don't

>> No.6082295

>>6082155
how did you make out?

>> No.6082308

>>6082208
Yeah I heard API key and immediately thought "scam" even though the site looks kind of legit, but I'm a tech brainlet.

Thanks. Fuck it I'll just do it manually. I'm mainly a hodler anyway

>> No.6082337

>>6082126
>>6082208
definetly not a scam, and this other anon is right. They give you specific insturctions on how to deal with the api keys so they only send read-only information. As my portfolio has grown and I have my coins spread out over many exchanges this site has proven very helpful to organize it all. You can also see realized and unrealized gains/losses on your current holdings, etc.

One note: Ku coin does not have read only API access, so you must re-enter the secret key each time, they do not keep it on file. This is a short coming of kucoin, and you can choose to manually enter these trades if you want.

>> No.6082471

>>6082337
>read only API keys

Thanks mate, I'll look into this then. How much does is cost, like $20? I hate doing taxes even tho about to be a CPA

>> No.6082498

So basically if you buy $100 of btc then trade it for $120 of eth, you have to pay capital gains on the $20?

Then if you cash it out, is do you have to pay capital gains again?

Plz help a brainlet

>> No.6082549

>>6082139
Isn't this exactly what everyone is saying ISNT true? wtf is going on here?

>> No.6082559
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6082559

>>6080659

Offer to pay in cryptocurrency

>> No.6082566

>>6082471
Free up to 200 trades, nice!

>> No.6082593

>>6080659
Invest in an invisible and secure coin like COLX, obviously.

>> No.6082626 [DELETED] 
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6082626

>hi here to do my taxes
>ok have a seat anon
>uh do ya'll niggers know to do dis crypto shit
>uhh anon I'll check
>loading.exe
>go right on back anon
>Hi so it looks like you've had 7000 crypto to >crypto trades the past month
>mfw

>> No.6082648

>>6082498
You pay tax on the $20 and your new cost basis for the ETH is now $120. So if you sell ETH for $150, then you pay taxes on $30 gain. If you sold ETH for $100, you'd report $20 capital loss which lowers your taxable capital gains, or up to $3,000 off your taxable income if no capital gains, with the rest not utilized able to roll forward to use as a tax benefit in future years

>> No.6082685

>>6081733
This.

Imagine paying taxes on the trade and the next day the coin crashes. You're fucked. If it increases then you have to pay the difference next year.

Makes no sense.

>> No.6082741

>>6082648
so I should want to be down in sat value?

>> No.6082805

>>6080843
All of these funds are already non-qualified. I have recommended self-directed IRAs before and people don't even reply. Not too late to do a prior year and 2018 contribution.

SEPP is fine, but you'd still have to pay a penalty for your lambo distribution.

>> No.6082828

>>6080659
That's only true after 2018. They changed virtual currency to be defined as "intangible property" and like kind exchanges were re-defined to apply only to "real property" which doesn't apply to intangible property. But all crypto to crypto is like kind exchanges.

>> No.6082835

>>6082685
You don't pay taxes unless you cash out to USD, retard.

>> No.6082838

>>6082741
You want to at least 2x every time you trade.

Daytraders are fucked.

>> No.6082877

>>6082838
good
those degenerates need to learn

>> No.6082913

>>6082835
There are like-kind taxes on cryptos in the US now.

I think I will just send the IRS a lambo this year and I'll buy an Accord.

>> No.6082925

>>6082741
Sat value doesnt matter for tax. You'll have to convert each change to what the increase/decrease in fiat was.

So $100 worth of bitcoin sats to $120 appreciation of those sats, traded for $120 worth of ether sats, means just $20 times your capital gains bracket, which is just your highest tax bracket.

Whicj is why long term hodling is legit since long term capital gains tax is significantly lower

>> No.6082996

>>6082925
But you would have to know the sat value at the time of the trade.

How?

>> No.6083049

>>6082741
Also, dont forget to add transaction fee and transfer fees,to your cost basis. Thatll make your cost basis higher which means a bit less taxes if a gain

>> No.6083070

>>6082835
If you actually believe that I hope you never have to cash out a large sum, because the IRS will come fuck your ass and penalize you through the dick hole.

You have to pay taxes on EVERY trade. You bought MEMECOIN with BTC? You'll get taxed on your "Sale" of BTC. When you sell MEMECOIN back for BTC again, you'll get taxed on your sale of MEMECOIN. Then when you finally sell BTC for USD, you will get taxed on that as well.

It's not as bad as it sounds except for the actual tracking of everything... but this is how the tax code works. Don't call people retards when you are the retard, mmk?

>> No.6083099

>>6083070
*Every trade after Jan 2018

>> No.6083124

Yes it is but you fucking morons don't know how cost basis works so you think you pay 40% in taxes and lose more than you invest somehow.

The stupidity is mindblowing.

>> No.6083134

>>6080843
you need earned income to contribute to an IRA

>> No.6083170

>>6083070
You're a fucking retard, buddy.

>> No.6083194

>>6082838
That's not how any of this works. It'll still turn out around 30% of your total profits regardless of how often you trade. So many brainlets in these threads

>> No.6083246

>>6082996
Youd have to look at what the coin was going for at the time you traded it. Can take like an average of the bidding/ask price at the time you traded.

Then look at the cash amount based on the exchange. If there's an odd exchange, youd have to get a fair market value somewhere else like maybe coinbase or something.

So take the 1 BTC = $15,000 for instance, say to divide based on how many sats, = your cost basis. Then bitcoin appreciated to whatever amount, do the same thing at the new price. The ether sats would just be allo ated that $120 amount, or $x every eth sat.

Yeah, i know pretty nuts, but looks like why places like cointracker and such would make it easier, after editing their results for fees/withdrawal depositz from coinbase, etc

>> No.6083257

>>6083070
I don't even know what to do.

These tax laws start from december 2017 when the bill was signed? When do I start paying the like-kind tax?

I made around 500 trades last year on 6 or 7 different exchanges because I didn't know this was going to be a thing.

>> No.6083258

>>6083099
Thank fucking god too. I did a bit of trades for kicks on gdax. Although I lost a *ton* back during the first flippening when it dropped from 7 to 5k and sold in case it was actually legitimate. It was a nice wakeup call that most of these flash sales are all just attempts to get people to sell low. I wonder if I can make that towards losses last year and get some money back.

>> No.6083272

>>6082498
You also add $20 to your ordinary income if it is a short-term realization. You need to be careful. Portions of larger thort-term crypto transactions could be taxed at a higher level if they bump you into the next income tax bracket. If you have a business and have more flexibility with your income it might be wise to make certain trades on lower or higher income years.

>>6081733
People were doing 1031 exchanges on crypto swaps because crypto is considered property. Under an audit, you would most likely be the guinea pig test case for other crypto traders. I personally would not have attempted to do that.

The new tax bill limits this to where you can only do a 1031 on real estate. I think it's only real estate now).

>> No.6083304

>>6083194
I'm a programmer, not a fucking tax guy but I'm going to have to hire one apparently.

>> No.6083333

>>6083246
that's asking way too much, especially considering the IRS doesn't even get that information from the exchanges.

GDAX did, but THEY will be the ones who need to provide it to IRS and you

>> No.6083374

>>6080659

will binance give all their data to the IRS?

>> No.6083445
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6083445

Okay guys question. I invested $1200 in 2017. I didn’t cash out, won’t until this year, 2018.
If I’m cool with a cost basis on $0, do I have to even track my trades from last year? I’m at $30k now and honestly don’t want to bother with any of that, I’m fine with giving the irs a few hundred extra. Legal? Ok with sending them zero info about crypto for 2017?

>> No.6083451

>>6083333
If you dont get a 1099 or sinilar from an exchanve though, youre still responsible from reporting it. Like one anon said, they could come back 3 or so years later when better and hit you with a bill PLUS penalties PLUS interest...

I know thats a nuts amount of work for people who made thousands of trades about, but it looks like theres sefvices to simplify it for now like bitcoin.tax and cointracking.info *shrug*

>> No.6083472

>>6083272
Like kind exchanges have never applied to crypto. You are right, they were dumb to do it. The IRS is going to shit on a lot of people.

>> No.6083517

>>6083194
Seriously, these brainlets probably have more than me yet don't understand this.

>> No.6083568

>>6083374
If ordered to, yes. Coinbase turned over information on 14,000 accountholders who had over $20,000+ in profits.

>> No.6083572

>>6083451
I'd lawyer up and tell the government to prove that my "assts" had a specific value in USD at the time of the exchange. They need to define this shit before they can enforce it and if it takes a court case I'll gladly be the first.

>> No.6083598

>>6083445
>$0 cost basis
Nigger you have no idea what you are doing do you?

>> No.6083715

>>6083572
Dude think of the lawyer fees. Not worth it at all amigo.

>>6083445
If you haven't made a trade in a whole year, it's long-term capital gain tax. I think 15% but look it up. You don't pay tax on the amount you put in, just the difference in profit you made when you cashed out. You would likely have to send information on trades to prove this.

If it's less than a year, and you're not a daytrading monkey, just take it out and pay at your highest tax bracket the profit you made since you put in the 1200. So 30-1.2, so 28,000 * [tax bracket]. and add that to the taxes. i'm not a cpa but thats a good start.

>> No.6083741

>>6082139
expenses cannot be written off

the only thing you can do with that is have a $15,050 cost basis (the transaction fees are added to the cost basis of the coin)

>> No.6083745

>>6081327
>>6081199
CRA taxes the same way already

>> No.6083755

>>6083598
From what I understand it would just be my $1200 that they cannot tax. $0 cost basis means they can tax that 1200. So say they tax it as short term it’d be $400-$500 I give them on top of the capital gains right? Or is there more to it that I’m missing?

>> No.6083777

>>6083715
Long-term cap gains have brackets based off ordinary income. I paid 0% federal in 2016. States vary.

>> No.6083926

>>6083755
You are missing a lot but I'm bored and do this for a living. Walk me through exactly what you did step by step, hold time, tell me your ordinary income (excluding crypto), and how u file. Ill tell you your federal if u cash rn.

>> No.6083984

>>6082155
shitty site, apparently you have to pay if you have over 100 transactions (I do)

>>6082308
use only the "View" permission so they can't do trades

>>6083170
he's right, you need to do this

>>6083194
in the US, it's in brackets up to 20% federally (but also state tax often charges for investment income)

if it's short term gains it's taxed like regular income

>>6083755
the higher your cost basis, the better

cost basis is what you bought for, which is $1200

the profit/loss is what you sold for at the time of the sale

>> No.6083986

>>6083715
>Dude think of the lawyer fees. Not worth it at all amigo.

If you have enough for the IRS to go after you then you have enough for a lawyer

>> No.6084008

Here we go
>buy btc on coinbase in 2013
>start trading in 2017
>buy more btc
>need to pay for hospital, take out 400
>buy more btc
>still trading between tons of coins
>take out a grand
>now it's tax time

So how do I even determine my initial investment or what is even profit?

It sounds like the only way to do this cleanly is to 100% cash out every year, do the taxes, then reenter.

>> No.6084023

>>6083472
I would agree, but I don't know that you can claim that they "never" applied to crypto.....I am not aware of a ruling on it. I can't imagine a good CPA making the recommendation though. If you self-prepare and don't complete 8824 then they wouldn't know. However, suddenly having a huge amount of money is a red flag, and in case anyone were to inquire, you would have to produce information. The 1031 thing is a letter of the law versus spirit of the law issue, and, even if you filed a suit to try to claim that certain cryptos should be eligible prior to 2018, they could rule that for instance, because BTC and ETH have different technology, they are not "like".

Don't screw around. Most on /biz/ never thought of the tax issue and will be in non-compliance come April 17 (and won't even know it). Once they start plugging these transactions into turbotax or whatever, they are going to owe cash.

You should get another W4 from HR and have them withhold a greater deal of money if you can't manage to keep a savings account.

>> No.6084031

What’s to stop someone from saying they purchased additional untracked BTC through ATMs and just held to make all their gains? Then you’re into long term gains territory rather than claiming every trade.

>> No.6084035

>>6083986
Fair. It sounds like he wants to challenge an audit, not a full blown IRS investigation.

>> No.6084093

>>6084031
You would probably need to find the transactions on the BTC ledger to prove it

>> No.6084105

>>6084008
Track your cost basis.

>> No.6084106

>>6082549
Ignore him. He's wrong.

>> No.6084109

>>6082047
Because the price you sell for into the new currency becomes the cost basis for cashing that out. I.E, made 100k on an altcoin that was sold for bitcoin? That 100k becomes your cost basis.

>> No.6084157

>>6084093
How the fuck would that work? And what you’re going to print out the blockchain for them?

>> No.6084217

>>6084023
Heres a question about W4.

Say I want to withhold less taxes in 2018 over time since I'm getting an EV credit and think I'm long termer holding all the coins I have so wont be trading about, just putting more in:

Do I have to wait for the 2018 W4 form to come out? Or can I use the 2017 W4 form and give back to IRS for now? I'm not in tax heh

>> No.6084242

>>6084157
My understanding, super limited, is that the IRS wants to tax you as much as possible - for your full income tax rate. If you want discounts, you have to prove why you deserve them.

>> No.6084262

>>6084217
give the 2017 W4 back to HR* I mean, to use for less 2018 federal withholding

>> No.6084285
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6084285

>>6083926
Okay, will keep it simple. Income from job about $80k year.
I bought $1200 of ETH in 2017. Traded a lot, value is around $30k now. Have not cashed out.
Plan is to hold all I have for 366 days, cash out dec 31 this year to pay long term cap gains.
Question is, Can I just not report my 2017 trades? I made many multiples of my money, I don’t care about paying tax on the initial $1200 if it means I can avoid tracking the 500 trades I did last year. Thanks for any info.

>> No.6084289

>>6084242
I guess that makes sense. Sort of have to think of it as guilty until proven innocent.

>> No.6084308

>>6084157
I have no idea how any of this works. I'm a small fish with a few trades and I'm probably in the loss for all of them. I did go in on LINK and have been continuing to put more money into it - i'm holding those for long gains though so I'm just not gonna worry too much on them.

>> No.6084324

>>6084157
I guess whatever you cashed out with like coinbase would be able to see the account address you sent from and they could then see every transaction made and tell you are lying.

Theoretically, someone could just find a btc to gold service and then a cash for gold service.

>> No.6084343

>>6084023
There hasn't been a ruling on it since no CPA is stupid enough to take it to court. It is treated the same way as stock, assuming it was invested and not mined or received as wage/payment.

>> No.6084423

>>6084008
coinbase has your info

so let's say you bought 1 BTC for $1000

Now it's $1400 and you cash out $400

your cost basis is $1000, and you cashed out 0.286 BTC at $1400 so that's a $400 - $286 (cost of those BTC) = $114 amount that is taxable

under total income of $37k or something like that you pay 0% rate on capital gains, and 15% thereafter up to like $415k

you can read up on cost basis like which coins you use to calculate it for the $400, but you can use FIFO (first in first out) to claim long term gains by cashing in the 2013 coins

short term gains are taxed like income

>>6084031
don't fuck around with the IRS, it's not worth it just to save a few bucks

>>6084285
if you sold when trading, that's "cashing out"

you have to report all your trades and keep track of all of your cost basis and shit

>>6084308
if you have losses, you can deduct them from your taxes

>> No.6084475

>>6084217
I don't know. I believe whatever form is online is valid at time of use.

https://www.irs.gov/forms-pubs/about-notice-1036

There will definitely be changes to the form with the new law though. So I don't know

>> No.6084486

People who are confused- please just read these two links.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/greatspeculations/2017/10/31/smart-tax-accounting-moves-for-cryptocurrency-traders/#29ce40f51c17
https://www.irs.gov/instructions/i8949

>> No.6084537

>>6084285
1. Why would you pay taxes on the 1200 you spent... You don't pay income tax for giving other people money. That is by definition, not capital GAINS


2. They don't just not make you track gains because a year has passed. How would that make any sense? You think if you pay this year you have to track meticulously, but if you pay next year it's just a blank slate?

The intelligence level of your questions makes me think you're larping.

>> No.6084541

Question to the CPAs in here: you only pay taxes for when you cash out investments, right? I.e. if your investment grows in USD value, you dont pay taxes on the growth until the time you decide to sell it for USD?

>> No.6084608

DO NOT PAY TAXES ON CRYPTO

THESE TAX THREADS ARE STARTED BY IRS EMPLOYEES AND SHILLS SPREADING FUD

THEY CANT TRACK ANY OF IT AND ARE FREAKING OUT

DO NOT PAY TAXES ON CRYPTO

>> No.6084613

>>6084475
Ok, thanks for the link too. I guess I'll just wait til whenever its out but I'll read thru that stuff, was just worried it would come out too late to withhold enough in time for 2018 EOY lol

>> No.6084670

>>6084423
This guy is smart, helpful, and knows his shit. You all should thank him.

>> No.6084718

>>6084423
>>6084670
Thank u sir

>> No.6084742

>>6084541
Not a CPA, but as I understand it, trading BTC for ETH counts as "selling" BTC and "buying" ETH as if you made two trades into USD and bought using that USD

>> No.6084747

>>6084608
Don't be so paranoid.
Is it really easier to believe that IRS wastes money paying employees to role-play in this miserable swamp, rather than to believe that people genuinely have questions?

>> No.6084758

>>6084343
The early adopters of crypto.........anti-institution, anti-bank, anti-Fed. It wouldn't have to be a CPA to challenge a ruling, it's some guy who held BTC in 2010 who goes ape shit when he owes back taxes and penalties.

It's the same guy who guinea pigs stadium concealed carry laws because they have partial public funding. We are still waiting for him in Seattle.

>> No.6084773

>>6084608
This. Unless you are cashing out huge amounts you are just throwing money away to the IRS.

>> No.6084846

>>6084773
if your capital gains are small and your income is low, you may not owe anything anyway

But I'm transferring $50,000 at a time from GDAX (otherwise it would take forever when I sell off), they definitely track this so I'm paying my taxes

>> No.6084872

>>6084537
Okay 1. I’m saying I’d pay it to avoid tracking all the trades I did in 2017. Same as if someone were to say ‘Oh hey look, I got a random airdrop of 1btc that’s cool’. They’d pay full taxes on it if they were to sell, because they paid nothing for it.
2. I don’t plan to trade in 2018. So I’m looking to avoid reporting my 2017 stuff, acting as if it were like kind exchanges. Then no trades this year, just holding. Will report those when I sell of course. Not larping

>> No.6084890

>>6084285
I got really bad news buddy. Every trade you made that got rid of crypto, even for other crypto was "cashing out". For every single one of these trades you are supposed to be tracking your cost basis and subsequent net gain/loss for the year in USD. Your gains are all short term and will be taxed the same as your ordinary income (the net when added together).

Since idk all your 500 cost basis and gains/losses I cant really give you an good estimation.

Assuming you made one transaction sale where a short term gain happened right now you would add the 30k-1.2k = 28.8 in short term cap gains added to your 80k income assumed for 108.8k taxable ordinary income.

http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-drop/n-14-21.pdf
https://www.irs.gov/newsroom/irs-virtual-currency-guidance

Everyone should read this.

>> No.6084897

>>6084608
I don't want to but I'm going to.

It's a new year and the government is finally taking their cut on all of our hard work to build planes and give it to people who can't even work at mcdonald's. Unfortunately you can't fuck with that of you've cashed out.

I suppose if you had enough you could go to another country and gain citizenship, then cash oit and move back.

>> No.6084969

>>6084747
>Is it really easier to believe that IRS wastes money paying employees to role-play in this miserable swamp
They probably do it in their free time.

>> No.6084982

>>6084872
Except that's not how it works, and every time you traded one crypt for another or just sold for BTC, that's a taxable event

>>6084897
in the United States, you still owe money for capital gains when you leave the country (you don't have to pay for earned income up to a certain amount)

and even if you renounce your citizenship, you still have to pay for seven years after that

>> No.6085042

>>6084423
Thanks...I am just going to hire someone.

Fucking tax bill turning my cryptocurrencies into cryptoassets.

>> No.6085088

>>6084890
On the bright side if you don't know your own cost basis the IRS prolly won't either...

>> No.6085118

>>6085042
Why? Why are you doing this? Don't pay. There is no way they can track anything other than the cash out and even that there are ways to avoid leaving a trail.
These rules are unenforceable do not give in.

>> No.6085137

>>6084890
so you are saying it now does no good to hold your profit for more than a year because you are essentially cashing out everytime you make a trade?
So if i'm trading for a year but not a penny ever touches my bank account...i still have to report it and pay taxes on it the following year when i do my taxes?

>> No.6085186

>>6085137
Yes. It's called bartering. Look up IRS bartering tax.

>> No.6085201

Why do you all make this so hard. For US only.

If you make a trade the profit you made in dollars goes in the pool. The loss you made in dollars is taken from the pool. At the end of the year, you owe a percentage of whats in the pool.

Thats it. Doesnt matter if you cash out, doesnt matter if you traded in bitcoin and ether only. Doesnt matter if you day traded. If you bought an ICO and left it in a wallet and didnt trade it, well then nothing went in to the pool did it. Its very simple.

>> No.6085232

>>6084982
I don't get how they can like-kind this.

We're investing in the companies behind the currencies. Even if not traditional, our money increases the value of their coin causing more people to mine/stake and increasing the tx speed to better their product.

>> No.6085259

>>6085137
No he is spreading FUD. I would not be surprised if both of you are IRS and asking questions to keep the thread alive.
Do not pay taxes on crypto!

>> No.6085266

Why not just transfer btc to cash in person with someone. Basically dirty money but you can just spend it as cash

>> No.6085289

>>6084890
Thanks for this and the links. See I was under the impression that for 2017 like kind exchanges was acceptable and with the new tax bill that loophole was closed. I know it was a grey area but the fact that it had to be closed made me think it could be used.

>> No.6085329

>>6085137
ok i just started this december 7th. I have made probably 100 trades and have gone from 7k to 20k. I was not planning on dealing with any of this until 2019. Is this a small enough money to not have to worry about?

>> No.6085364

>>6085201
No, that's how it's supposed to be. You have to calvulate tax on every trade based on the values of your coins at the time, IN ADDITION TO THAT, you also have to do what you are saying.

>> No.6085378

What if I've only bought BTC through other people via PayPal? Can the IRS prove I didn't just receive a gift?

>> No.6085390

can't tell if anons are getting more retarded or the IRS has infiltrated us

>> No.6085417

>>6085364
Thats common sense.

>> No.6085418

If IRS wants to tax crypto, they have to accept crypto.

>> No.6085434

>>6085137
Yes. To make it long term you would have to buy the crypto and hold for a year. Same concept as stock, same reason like kind exchange does not apply.

Like I said tho, if you find it actually impossible to find your transaction history to find gains/losses/subsequent cost basis how the fuck would the irs find it?

>> No.6085438

>>6085201
This is incorrect, Everytime you bought and sold less than 30 days later for a loss it is a "wash sale" and you can not write off those losses.

>> No.6085483

>>6085201
Ok i'm a total idiot here...but if i make a trade....how is the profit determined? If i trade 3 litecoins for 1000 XRP....then I traded something of a certain value for an amount of something equal to the first value. No profit has occured. If XRP then drops 50% i have then lost 50%....if it goes up 50% then i have a 50% percent profit. But when is that 50% determined? Like if it takes a week or a month or a year? Sorry if that doesn't make sense. once again...idiot here.

>> No.6085484

My is plan to accumulate so much I can move anywhere in the world anytime I want. I want so much money I could renouce my citizenship and it wouldn’t effect me at all. Fuck the JewSA it’s a shithole anyway

>> No.6085539

anyone here used bitcoin.tax?

>> No.6085559

>>6085483
At the time of the trade.

>> No.6085623

>>6085559
Then you would pay 0%? Lol

No profit at time of trade between coins.

>> No.6085627

>>6082835
then go to germony get your euros. go to usa. exchange your euros to usd. live your life mane.

>> No.6085672

>>6085623
Thats correct.

>> No.6085789

>>6085329
You have 13k of short-term gains. Add that onto your ordinary income for 2017. Your W2 says you made 30k in 2017? Now you made 43k and will be filling out schedule D and have a line item on your 1040.

Legally, you have to. Lots of anons on here won't be doing it because they do not know any better or they are purposely not going to do it and hope they don't get caught, or they are telling you not to because they are trolling you.

>> No.6085795

>>6085329
>7k to 20k

how?

>> No.6086039

>>6080659
before i knew anything about taxes i made $10k last year in august on a coin and withdrew from coinbase to pay off a loan and buy me a new computer. i stopped trading in september then i started trading again this year

i never payed taxes on that it never occured to me to do so, how fucked am i? what do i do now? im making money right now again.. tho not much only like $4k so far

im 22 and lived with my mom so i never had a job and never payed taxes since i never made a single penny on anything until august of last year

>> No.6086106

>>6085795
anon how new are you, look at the coinmarketcap graphs for basically any coin.. if you put 7k into any crypto you would have like 20k right now

>> No.6086234

>MFW I broke my back, hiking, in Sept 2016, forcing me to find a hobby.
> Hobby was crypto and shitposting from bed.
>mfw I made 1.1 million this year
>Only returned to work in September to make "income"
>MFW, didn't make over $37.5k in income, so my marginal tax rate is 15% making me exept from all cap gains taxes.

I love my life.

>> No.6086287

>>6086039
Need more details. See
>>6084890

>> No.6086305

>>6086234
>my marginal tax rate is 15% making me exept from all cap gains taxes.
wat does this mean

>> No.6086324

>>6086039

You pay cap gains in 2016-2017 based on your marginal tax rate. Under $37.5k USD in 2017 = 15% tax rate = cap gains tax = zero crypto tax.

>> No.6086335

>>6086305
It means he's larping

>> No.6086371

>>6086305

Duckduckgo 2017 marginal tax rates, then duckduckgo 2017 capital gains tax brackets.

>> No.6086385

>>6086287
what details am i missing? i think i provided enough info for you to tell me if im fukt or not

basically i have never made a single dime from working, but i made $8k-$12k profit from crypto last year and $4k this year

>> No.6086396

>>6085434
If you cash out and can’t find your cost-basis, I highly doubt the IRS will care and simply tax you at a short term capital gain

>> No.6086445

>>6082126
It's a website from germany the company is located in Munich and has been around for several years. It's legit as Germans love taxes and numbers. Very professional and great support.

>> No.6086450

>>6086324
are u serious am i getting trolled

>> No.6086470

>>6085289
>>6085289
Common misconception. The new tax bill only clarified what CPAs assumed already.

>> No.6086548

>>6080659
Buy one of the accounts off Ebay, and make all your transactions from that account. When the IRA, comes looking at the account records, they will be looking for the person's Id Coinbase took to create the account, and not yours.

>> No.6086550

>>6083568
Where is coinbase based? Because binance is Chinese. They ain't handing nuthin to the IRS

>> No.6086572

>>6086450
>>6086324
if u arent trolling do i still have to do a tax form just to say hey i made money? what if i didnt do it, can i do it late?

>> No.6086589

>>6086039
Your taxable income for 2017 is $10,000. You'll probably owe nothing. You have short term gains and will file a return this year. You are a ghost though, so probably wouldn't get caught.

>> No.6086610

>>6085789
started off buying a few LTC at 100 bucks. That mooned. Bought XRP and sold way to early. Bought Verge after its big dip and doubled up on it. Put all those profits in XLM giving me 15k lumens. Also bought FUN at like 300 sats.

>>6085789
ok i know you are just random dude on the internet and thanks for your info thus far...but how the fuck are they gonna know about that 13k if i dont' have it on coinbase and don't cash it out until i cashout everything in 2019?

>> No.6086616

>>6086385
Yes you were supposed to pay taxes on it. How much was what I was going to dig into, but nvm. Assuming they were all short term gains it would be taxed as ordinary income. 8-12k last year. 4k this year.

>> No.6086766

>>6086234
you're wrong, you have cap gains because cap gains get added to your income

so if you have 100k cap gains and 10k earned income, the first 27.5k you don't have to pay anything on, the rest of the 72.5k you have to pay 15% on

>> No.6086778

>>6086371
Lmao

Lmfao

Duckduckgo google

How the hell can you type duckduckgo twice in a row and think that's normal idk.

>> No.6086818

>>6086234
I thought this too and was planning to live as a student to keep my income bracket under 15% so I could pay 0% long term capital gains tax. After some research it seems that if you cash out that 1mil, 37.8k will be taxed at 0% (due to income bracket being 15%), then $387,200 (basically filling out the entire will be taxed at LTG 15% and finally the remaining $574,200 will be taxed at 20%.

Someone please correct me if I’m wrong, I was really bummed when I found this out

>> No.6086824

>>6086616
what about >>6086324
and thank you

>>6086589
by "probably owe nothing" do you mean ill have to pay the taxes and get it back as a return or i do taxes and they might say "yeah ur good dude"

also i file short term gains this year on money i made last year + the money i made this year? wont they catch me for that?

>> No.6086861

>>6084537
you get $0 cost basis on EVERY TRADE

you will owe 200 times what you made if you don't

NOTHING you can do will stop them from charging you tax on every trade (that they find out about)

If you pretend like only the last trade existed they are gonna assume you are laundering money.

get it?

>> No.6086904

>>6086861
You cant owe 200 times what you made. Thats not how taxes work.

>> No.6086905

>>6086818
*(basically filling out the entire next income bracket)

>> No.6086956

>or up to $3,000 off your taxable income

Hypothetical:

So let's say I spent $200 on "AAA" coin. However, AAA coin was a scam and is now at $0. I only own $10 in total capital gains (BTC -> BBB coin, BTC went up $20, still holding BBB, rounding off to $10 for easy math). Let's say I owe $500 for my job for taxes. Can I put that $190 loss towards the $500 I owe in wage taxes?

Or am I misinterpreting what you're saying?

>> No.6086987

>>6086861
$0 cost basis is not a big deal because of the massive gains we get desu. The amount i invested is minimal to the gains I got.

>> No.6086996

>>6080659
How do you report it if you're only cashing out 15k of your stack tho
how could you pay tax on all of your crypto if you only cash out a small portion

>> No.6086999

>>6086824
>>6086324
This guy is assuming long term cap gains, which I think is wrong (why I asked for more info). I think you held for under a full calendar year and therefore have short term cap gains taxed as ordinary income. Am I wrong in this assumption?

>> No.6087030

>>6086996
see
>>6085201

>> No.6087031

>>6086234
retard, your tax bracket is $1 mill +

that and you are paying short term gains since yout obviously daytraded

>> No.6087050

so I made 38k this year through my job and starting trading late December and have made around 2.7k in gains as of today so technically I should be reporting how much I actually made before the year ended right? i feel like gonna need help from tax consultant as im not exactly sure how id report it.

>> No.6087065

>>6086904
that's how not reporting your trades works

>> No.6087082

>>6087030
so you have to cash out a percentage at the end of the year no matter what?

>> No.6087153

>>6087082
Depends on if you have enough cash to pay for your gains. If you have nowhere else to go to, then you will have to cash out some of your portfolio to pay for them.

>> No.6087157

>>6086987
did you read the "EVERY TRADE" part?
The whole point of "cost basis" is that's how you keep track of how much you actually made.

They will not accept "how much you put in vs how much you have now", and they absolutely will not accept "made $30k trading crypto"

but go ahead. I won't have to worry about getting audited for a mistake or two with enough people like you out there

>> No.6087207

>>6087082
If you don’t have a second source of capital to pay for the gains tax between each transaction you’ll basically be forced to liquidate part of your portfolio to cover it

Which mean people that have been daytrading and flipping coins at thousands of dollars at a time are gonna be forced to cash out and pay huge taxes since short-term gains are taxed at income level

>> No.6087225

>>6087157
There are millions of grandmas out there with bitcoin packages that are fucked.

I can't stop laughing.

>> No.6087227

>>6086610
They probably won't. You can take a chance if you want. It isn't a huge amount of money. Filling in your transaction details on turbotax or similar software would probably bring up some redflags and calculate penalties for you.....as you bought and sold during 2017, and are now trying to report it as income in 2019. I actually don't know how tax prep software would handle that.

>>6086616
>>6086824
>>6086999
He made no mistake yet. Taxes for 2017 are due 4/17/2018. He probably owes nothing. Does his mom claim him as a dependent? If so, he wouldn't get a personal exemption and that might make him owe some money. A standard deduction + personal exemption would probably mean no taxes. You might owe state taxes though.

>> No.6087232

>>6087153
>>6087207
so what happens if you just cash it all out at once and file taxes on everything since the beggining when you cash it out?
you just go to jail?

>> No.6087282

>>6087232
You are going to have to write that again because you were making sense than you stopped making sense at the end.

>> No.6087348

>>6086999
no thats right

so will they fuck me if i just pay last taxes on last years gains + this years gains, this year together in one tax return and just like pretend i made it all this year? or what do i do there?

>> No.6087351

>>6087282
like lets say i just dont report shit for 2 years.
but on the 3rd year, i report everything including the the first 2 years (every trade that happened in the 3 year span and the initial investments) and offer to pay every single tax that would occur out of those investments on that date
would i just go to jail for tax evasion? or would they just make me pay the old taxes and i'd be free?

>> No.6087365

>>6087157
You brainlet. The maximum they can tax you is 35% of your total stack, which is what you are probably going to pay anyway. They cannot go over that because your gains need to be REALIZED and they cant tax you on unrealized gains only on paper.

$0 cost basis is really just there for your initial investment. Afterwards the whole thing is moot.

>> No.6087376
File: 14 KB, 221x168, Capture.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
6087376

>>6087232
They want "their" money. They are as interested in jailing you as Visa is when you don't pay the bill......unless pic related and you try to fight it.

Someone will tell you that you owe ______ for back taxes and ______ in penalties and _______ interest on those penalties.

>> No.6087393

>>6087351
No, you would get fined for not reporting those first 2 years. You dont go to jail unless as a last resort. You being in jail doesnt get them money, they just want your money.

>> No.6087421

>>6087351
they will charge you interest for the years you held their money

>> No.6087424
File: 108 KB, 500x667, 458634D2-CFA5-478F-95ED-0B44479F95C0.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
6087424

So I calculated all my stuff on cointracking. It’s a very slick site actually. So my crypto balance is $30k now but on dec 31-2017 it was 17,900. So taxes on that is about $5000 I will owe. That SUCKS. But I’m not playing games with the irs. Does that sound correct? I pay that out of pocket, and then starting jan1 this year my cost basis is $17,900?

>> No.6087455

>>6087227
ok so i didnt miss anything, the gains i made back in august and the gains i made now i can pay taxes on together before april and its all good?

>> No.6087473

>>6087393
>>6087376
>>6087421
Thanks guy,
at what point should i start worrying about this?
what amount of money is "too much" to not report

>> No.6087522

>>6087473
There is no set amount. They could wait 6 years then decide to crack down on people and you could get caught in the net. The longer you wait the more you will owe in fines.

Or you could slide under the radar forever. its a gamble, its up to you if you want to wager on it.

>> No.6087631

>>6087522
Well i'd have no problem paying on my small stack, the problem is the fees to move and cash out would basically raise the tax problem to 45-55%
Since i see a lot of you saying it's taxed as income in the short term, isn't there a low enough bracket where you pay 0 taxes because you dont earn enough yearly?
college student here

>> No.6087651

Every normie and their cousin is on Binance these days. Everyone I talked to assumes the law is once you cash out. The IRS is going to go after people with millions, not some guy with $30k

>> No.6087666

>>6080659
Get off of groinbase and geedax

>> No.6087692

>>6080659
Or wait no, pay the government in DOGE

>> No.6087716

>>6087227
Yeah when all is said and done the exemption and deduction will wipe his income if he can use both. Still has to report his income, which is what I'm talking about. The other guy I think was talking about claiming them as lt gains in the 0% lt bracket since his ordinary income so low. I'm saying the gains go in as ordinary income as st gains.

>> No.6087721

>>6086550
You can cash out on binance? What would be the downside?

>> No.6087749

>>6087666
And go where?

>> No.6087788

>>6087631
As far as I know capital gains taxes are reported on your W2 so you could be a low enough tax bracket that you would get a return.

You could start reporting 2017 and all following years and hope the IRS ignores previous years. The longer it goes the less likely they will bother with it.

>> No.6087800

I buy ETH only when I have to buy an ALT, including the transfer and transaction fee, I most of the time on the losing point when I am doing ETH/ALT trade. Now this ALT is safe with me and I keep track of each trade on my delta/blockfolio app. It has the price of each trade I have done yet.
That should be good enough?

2. I do not understand one small point. If we are considering about each trade as a taxable event, why are we making it tough to understand for ourselves?
Suppose I had $100 of BTC and it grew to $140. I sold $70 out of it and bought an ALT. ALT went from $70 to $100 and remaining of BTC ($70) grew to $120. I sold half of BTC again to buy $60 of another coin which eventually grew to $90. Now my total input money was $100 and current total is $250. So even if we consider each trade as a taxable event, my last sum would be $250 which is my current total of all coins. So taxable income would be $250 - $100 = $150. Why are we so worried about it then? If we could just do total of input money and total of output money and just dont cash out till the end, we are good I suppose?

>> No.6087818

>>6087651
From the records they are requesting the cutoff seems to be 20k for interest, but I don't follow it close.

>> No.6087870

Guys I am French so I have nothing to do here but now I am lost with all these fucking taxes.
Something I know for sure is that I will never give 62% of my gains to my shitty communist country.

So what do I do? Create an offshore bank account? I have seen that Belize offers the most private bank account of all the offshores.

Buy Gold with BTC? When I buy Gold with BTC, do they need to know where did my BTC originated or they just fucking want to receive on their fucking wallet or whatever?
Then can I sell this gold in an another service for cash directly?

Man my mentally totally changed. No when I see my portfolio accumulating its frustrating me.

I am fucking lost.

>> No.6087871

>>6087424
I don't know about the number, but yes you pay that out of pocket. Your cost basis is not a wholistic figure. You have a basis and a purchase/sale date for each holding. You bought $1000 of XRP, you bought $500 of DOGE. Not, your cost basis is $1500. XRPs basis is $1000. DOGE is $500.

>>6087455
No. Only the taxes on crypto trades you placed during 2017 are due on 4/18/2018.

Any taxes your that your crypto trading generates during 2018 will be due in April of 2019. Any trade you placed from last Monday onward is not connected to what you sold in August and is not taxable during the same year.

>> No.6087896

>>6087365
its not paper its the actual property.

have fun.

>> No.6087950

>>6087870
Your tax is 62%?

>> No.6087968

>>6087870
62%!!?! Holy.
Is all this tax stuff going to cause Monero to moon?

>> No.6087995

>>6087365

Worstcase scenario, the money I have in crypto minus the money I put in is my gains and my current tax slab is my tax for it? If I pay that I keep the IRS happy?

>> No.6088019

>>6087870
nous sommes perdu

>> No.6088023

>>6087749
Fiat

>> No.6088036

>>6087870
Theres only one thing you can do.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X1_2NwmIobU

>> No.6088043

>>6087968
COLX, actually.

>> No.6088053

>>6087818

They requested coinbase give data on ppl that made $20k in 1 transaction between 2015-2016. That means a massive player.

You guys are really underestimating how many random people have $20-75k of crypto

>> No.6088089

>>6086234
anon...you are gonna be fucked by jamal in prison at this rate..
cash out and hire a fucking cpa already jesus christ.
I'm only saying this for your own good.

>> No.6088093

>>6082877
>literally responsible for you long-term gains with PnDs
>durr degenerates how dare they mak mor moni WHY CAN EVRBBODY HOL ITS UNFAER

>> No.6088130

>>6088019
Il y a toujours un moyen. Je suis sûr qu'il y a un putain de moyen.
Ceux qui l'ont trouvé rigolent et se moquent de nous quand ils regardent ces threads.

>> No.6088146

>>6087716
His $10,000 ST gain is taxed at ordinary income. But since he is in the low bracket, if he were to have LT gains in the same year, he would owe no taxes on those.

>>6087788
Capital gains notifications from crypto are not going to be sent to you unless it is through email (doubt it---exchanges can barely keep registrations open).....you sure as hell aren't going to come to you in the mail from China. Gains/divs/interest are reported on 1099-B/DIV/INT. W-2 is income from employment.

>> No.6088157

>>6087749
https://youtu.be/NV7_abwM2ug

>> No.6088203

>>6088093
And half these shitcoins are shit. The price is ran by hype and fomo. Holding for a year will only do well of btc does well and everyone knows this bubble's gonna burst someday.

Last thing you want to do in this market is hold a shitcoin for a year while btc is just waiting to get tossed out for new tech.

>> No.6088255

>>6080659
don't cash out, wait for crypto to take over.

>> No.6088324

>>6087870
>62%

How is this legal

>> No.6088343

>>6088053
Oh, I misunderstood then. Like I said, I don't really follow it.

>> No.6088428

>>6086818
Anyone have a second opinion on this one?

>> No.6088460

>>6088053

No, IRS asked for information on people who did $20k worth of transactions in a year from 2013-2015. For whole year if you did a transaction of 20k, you are in the radar.

>> No.6088521

>>6087871
ok thank you so much i love these threads

>> No.6088585

>>6087348
You only pay for this years gains next year bud. The taxes due this year are for 2017 calendar year.

It seems like you have 10k in st cap gains which go in as ordinary income for 2017 and likely wont owe shit. See:
>>6087716
>>6087227

>> No.6088768

guys, im confused. i invested around 150$ and lost 30$ when i pulled out. i dont have to report losses right?

>> No.6088786

>>6088146
Well if he has to report it on a 1099 hes going to owe no matter what.

>> No.6088828

>>6088768
They dont care about your losses.

>> No.6088925

>>6088828
IRS=OGG
>only gains goblins

>> No.6088974

>>6086818
>>6088428

Think your scheme through.

>be me, Tim Cook, CEO of Apple
>taxes are homosexual......like me
>i will no longer take a salary from Apple
>i will sell accumulated long-term AAPL shares for the rest of my life and not pay taxes because I am in the lowest tax bracket.

Look up a tax calculator online and run your hypothetical.

>> No.6089209

>>6088974
Mind if I screencap this?

>> No.6089569

>>6089209
go ahead

>> No.6089698

>>6089209
NO DONT