Working on Wall Street - majors etc.

[Anonymous No.572046]

I see a lot of bullshit in this thread about what to major in to make money in finance.

Here is a message thread and article which says what I have been saying all along - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8698986

Math, math, math. After that, computer science. Least important is economics, finance etc.

Someone who knows calculus and statistics backwards and forwards, and is a good programmer, is going to get a lot farther than someone who knows all about Keynes and Milton Friedman.

[Anonymous No.572049]

>>572046
Good lucking getting into the old boy network with a nerdy degree like that.

[Anonymous No.572054]

>>572049
>Good lucking getting into the old boy network with a nerdy degree like that.

RenTech only allows people in with such degrees. Which made Jim Simons one of the wealthiest men in the world.

Plenty of hedge funds that are quant heavy - D. E. Shaw.

There is an old time network - of old-timers at the big Wall Street investment banks that are losing billions in trades to hedge funds every year. Hell, Simons paid himself one billion one year, never mind the rest of his firm.

Plus there are many under the radar firms most people never heard of, trading billions.

The Wall Street firms are getting in line. The old boy network is being decimated. The Merc and NYSE trading floors are ghost towns.

Old boy networks are becoming smaller and smaller sinecures within the big firms. They still exist - lots of hand shaking, salemanship and so forth. But they are on the wane while quantitative trading, and more syndicated investments are on the rise.

[Anonymous No.572119]

>>572054
Your op post is titled "How to get a Quant job on wall street".

Of course, you need to know your shit to be a Quant.

However, Quant jobs are not the only jobs on wall street. Investment banking is hardly quantitative and working on the buy side requires far more analytical ability than knowing stochastic calculus.

Furthermore, even the implication that hedge funds are consistently beating the market is a complete joke. When you account for survivorship bias by pulling up the mountain of failed hedge funds that get stripped from hedge fund return statistics, you can see that they fare no better than the rest. There might be a handful that are successful initially, but the market gets flooded and their competitive edge is competed away when their strategies are replicated.

[Anonymous No.572138]

>>572054
real estate is where all the old boy shit is/(always has been). but yeah there are a lot of engineers on wall street now. Managing stuff is how you make real money, and anyone from any background can do that,purely math people just usually aren't good as at it

[Anonymous No.572255]

>>572119
>However, Quant jobs are not the only jobs on wall street. Investment banking is hardly quantitative

That's what I mean by handshaking. How many big deals are done a year, and how many key people are there to do this? It is a limited space, while hedge funds always have room for one more guy who knows statistics and calculus back and forth.

>. When you account for survivorship bias by pulling up the mountain of failed hedge funds that get stripped from hedge fund return statistics, you can see that they fare no better than the rest. There might be a handful that are successful initially, but the market gets flooded and their competitive edge is competed away when their strategies are replicated.

Like Lehman Brothers?

RenTech's strategies couldn't even be duplicated by a group of Russians who joined and left.

There are also stealth hedge funds trading billions which are under the radar.

I mean fundamental stock analysis - many do it, only some, like Warren Buffett and Peter Lynch, do it well over decades of time. That there are a few big winners and a lot of losers is true in many fields.

[Anonymous No.572263]

>>572046
was watching a documentary on Ken Lay, the Ceo of Enron, the company which layed the groundworks for todays deregulated financial system and many other composites. Guess what he majored on, yup ECO FUCKING NOMICS.

[Anonymous No.572270]

People who work face to face with clients have the most income, job satisfaction and job security. Quants who majored in math and work behind the scenes are low on all three scales. They'll get a job easy, but never retire at 40.

[Anonymous No.572283]

>>572270
>People who work face to face with clients have the most income, job satisfaction and job security. Quants who majored in math and work behind the scenes are low on all three scales.

RenTech sent their clients back their money and did all investment from in-house. Quants are not behind the scenes - they founded the firm and are the firm.

[Anonymous No.572285]

>>572283
Outlier

[Anonymous No.572286]

>>572263
>Guess where he went to school fucktard, I could leave harvard with a philosophy degree and I would have proven Im smart enough to work any job.

[Anonymous No.572290]

>>572054
Have we forgotten about the contribution of quants to the 2009 housing bubble already. Finance is very subjective, especially investment.

Having a background in maths is great but means practically nothing if you don't have someone with a finance / economics background who can actually identify and interpret the inputs.

You first have to know which variables affect which other variables before the quant can start creating an econometric model. You need economics to ascertain the general trend and identify possible fluctuations and deviations and you need quants to identify entry and exit positions.

[Anonymous No.572291]

>>572290
Sorry, meant to reply to OP

[Anonymous No.572326]

>>572049
Lol, buddy if you're not already part of the "old boy" network by the time you enter high-school, you're never getting in.

OP is absolutely correct.

[Anonymous No.572554]

>>572046
>Someone who knows calculus and statistics backwards and forwards, and is a good programmer, is going to get a lot farther than someone who knows all about Keynes and Milton Friedman.

But both of them majored in Math.

I'm open to answering questions about going Quant.

[Anonymous No.572562]

>>572290
Housing bubble was 2006

It also wasn't due to quants, in fact it was more due to shitty inferior quant research in the early 2000s that lead to the mispricing of subprime mortgage derivatives being acceptable on a wide scale, later on when quants figured this out they traded against it and made the problem a lot worse and made a ton of money off it instead of fixing it but if the banks and rating agencies etc had had competent quants like they do now in 2000 the mispricing would have never taken place to begin with and the bubble would have been a lot more minor and controlled.

The issue with quants, and there very much is one, is with their effects on regular market trading and volatility not their contribution to the economic crash.

And you seem to be looking at this way too big picture, they're not talking about people working on wall street knowing nothing about finance or economics in general, it's pretty much specifically for entry level analysts, rather than spend 4 years getting a finance degree taking classes covering content youll learn in 2 weeks on the job in orientation anyway because it is piss easy, they would prefer you know how to program and have decent math skills. You still need an MBA and CFA to advance to higher positions within the bank, the people making decisions and doing the heavy lifting still need a very strong background in finance and economic theory.

You don't need a 4 year finance degree to do a LBO analysis on a publicly traded company, you need a functional knowledge of statistics, how to use Excel and basic math and a couple youtube videos explaining what you're doing.

[R R No.572567]

>>572046
They did put an entire team of wallst members to answer questions related to the market on wallst.help they are looking for people who are interested in the market or helping people understand it

[Anonymous No.572570]

>>572554
I've got a couple questions you might be able to help with, I'm a first semester quant student, doing a 2 year masters at the moment but planning on finishing my PhD before working full time unless I get an offer right after my masters which seems unlikely.

What type of firms are most likely to hire me? I'm coming from a shit tier university without much work experience (just 1 undergrad corporate finance internship at a small company) so I am in a very bad position relative to other applicants, the IBs seem very unlikely and the top hedge funds seem like they're gonna take one look at my university and into the trash it goes. Are there, like, energy companies or prop shops or something, anything like that which might have easier quant internships or should I just keep my fingers crossed on the banks and Bloomberg and such?

Also, I haven't actually paid any money or anything but I'm considering registering for the CFA for June, is that even something that is going to be seen as a plus for a quant? I can't help feel it might be a warning sign that I am not that good at programming and trying to compensate otherwise, it's definitely worth doing but it's not worth spending $1200 on if it's not gonna help get me a job.

[Anonymous No.572572]

>>572570
bleh, didn't make it entirely clear I'm only applying for internships for next summer, I'm not at all worried about looking for full time yet.

[Anonymous No.572654]

>>572570
What are you doing your masters/PhD in?

I can't speak for the situation of coming from a not-great university, but one option is prop-trading firms, particularly the smaller ones.

You basically just need to be good at math/probability to be competitive for those, and be reasonable good at programming (i.e. writing code with an awareness of performance, not writing super high-performance code)

Banks also hire reasonably for their quant/quant-ish roles

CFA can be a plus for more established firms, but I'm not sure how much of a plus.

[Anonymous No.572984]

>>572046
I thought it was broad way, not street.

[Anonymous No.573451]

Wrong,OP, that's only if you want to be a quant.

While I agree that math, cs, physics, engineering, are the best degrees in general for employment, none of them are.necessary for the highest paying jobs. The highest paying jobs aren't quant jobs.

These quant things are overjoyed because math is romanticised. Also autists on 4chan are drawn to it because they think they can get to a high paying job solely through studying textbooks in their room rather than going out and networking.

[Anonymous No.573670]

>>573451
Please elaborate on these highest paying jobs and the required education.

[Anonymous No.574750]

Is investment banking a good move if i can take the daily soulraping?

[Anonymous No.575078]

>>574750
Sure but the problem with investment banking is... well... the soulrape...

[Anonymous No.575088]

Not Wall St, but I work for a major firm in Chicago.

Your college major is irrelevant. Finance is very proprietary. We look for people who can learn. A 4.0 GPA in Finance doesn't justify much. Our Partners were a tennis player, chemist, bartender, and model. None of them had an educational background in Finance.

It's more about relationships than anything. It is in basic terms a sales position. Join organizations and clubs, apply to internships, and get to know as many people as possible. Write a publication. Develop a strategy. Trade $2K in a prop account your Grandma gave you. Anything to give you an edge. A major is the least thing people look at.

[Anonymous No.575100]

>>574750

>soulraping

Nigga what? How the fuck is IB soulraping? You make a shit ton of money doing some pretty damn involved and exciting work. The only downside is the hours you need to put in, but if you want to "make it" in any other occupation you'd need to put even more time in. Sounds like a pretty good deal to me.

[Anonymous No.575109]

>>575100
Slept on a cot in my office for the first two years on the job. And that was a white glove Manhattan primo job.

[Le Newb No.575114]

QUESTION for anyone working or knows the Quant field.

I'm a math major at a top 30 Uni in US. So this insurance company hired me in their investment office right out of undergrad starting next year. They said their office does a lot of quant related things and the job is very much based on stats and modeling. They had math phd's and shit. Base of 65k + 15k(glassdoor).

Is my situation good? and what should i expect from my job and the career path after this Analyst program. Appreciate any contribution.

[Anonymous No.575120]

>>575114
Only you can judge if that is good money to you.

I will say the insurance industry is the least professional and the lowest paying of all financial services. At least it isn't banking with all that wannabe loser bullshit.

[Le Newb No.575125]

>>575120
Hmm. really? damn. So if insurance industry in finance is bad, is it easy to switch to asset management companies or banks? Also, can you back that opinion with experience or source?

[Anonymous No.575143]

>>573451
This is spot on.

Nerds aren't the ones making millions. It's the football players, fratbros, and chads they all hate that end up being their MDs, while they cry at the injustice of the world during their 8th year in the bullpen.

4Ch is full of people who think a technical degree is the only way to secure an above-median paying job, all the while looking smugly down upon arts majors who are making comparatively less. Totally unbeknownst they remain to the actual rainmakers, whom they would never interact with, because "sales is for people who want to work at bestbuy."

Clueless they will remain for their entire lives, being paid just enough by their respective software development and engineering companies that they remain oblivious and smug about their position, always being kept just out of reach of their dream house and a lambo, so they have something to work towards when they're still making 150k at 40. Meanwhile, families in India and China are popping out thousands of future engineers/programmers a day, who are going to end up far more disciplined, inexpensive, and capable than their kids will ever be.

Take the red pill. Go outside and learn to fucking sell - sell your investment bank's services, sell your management consultancy's engagements. Don't be the "excel-guy." Most importantly, sell yourself so people have a reason to invest their time and money in you. Successful people with quantitative degrees just so happened to also have the ability to sell.

[Anonymous No.575147]

>>575143
Well, that's depressing

[Anonymous No.575154]

>>575143
>so smug

[Anonymous No.575157]

>>575143
As a guy who worked as a salesman in college for a year to help pay tuition and later became decently successful with no quant degree, I can agree with this guy. Salesmanship and charisma are fucking tremendous life skills. If people like you, they want to help you and promote you.

[Anonymous No.575160]

>>575143
Why not do both?

What chance does Jerome have of becoming an NBA/rap star? What chance does Chad have of broing his way up to upper management if his daddy didn't go to the same ivy league university as the CEO?

The point is to be a smart motherfuker AND network, do sales, play people like you play with your calculator.

This is why ENTP is the master race.

[Anonymous No.575162]

>>575160
>INTP
>63k
I-Im okay with this

[Anonymous No.575175]

>>575160

>ENTP
>2nd lowest

[Anonymous No.575196]

>>575160

The average US household income is 45k a year. Yet, according to your image, no single MB personality earns under 60k.

This graph is in no way accurate. You should feel bad.

[Anonymous No.575201]

>>572570
Make sure you transfer to a more prestigious uni/college after you get your bachelors, not saying it would be easy of course.

[Anonymous No.575203]

>>575160
INTJ is the master race though

The problem is that many INTJ's aren't interested in money in the way that many people traditionally pursue it.

[Anonymous No.575332]

>>575088
Do you work for a prop trading firm?

[Anonymous No.575334]

>>575203

You do realize personality tests don't mean anything right? You can take the test again at a later time and you'll get a different result.

[Anonymous No.575336]

>>575078
>>575100
That's the thing. I can actually imagine myself working those hours. And from what I've heard it sounds pretty exciting. Can anyone recommend me some good books/videos/articles about this?

[Anonymous No.575339]

>>575332

I work for a private equity company. We do fund a few prop firms, but it's mostly venture capital and foreign exchange investing.

If you ever want a job dealing with investing or trading, you should move to Chicago, not NYC. Every block probably has 10 prop firms waiting to take anybody. I know a few people on the futures trading floor who went from working min wage at a grocery store to $4-5K a day. NYC is still pretty much college breed candidates. Chicago is pretty much open arms to anybody who's good enough to stay.

[Anonymous No.575342]

>>575100

You don't make a fuck ton actually. You get maybe $150K after salary and bonus for 80+ hours a week. That's less than $30/hour. Plus you're in NYC. That's about $7-8K after taxes. $3-4K is going to housing. Then you're gonna pay $1500-2000 for data and analytic feeds.

[Anonymous No.575348]

>>575339
How hard is it to break into private equity? I'm curious, because it's usually referred to (alongside hedge funds) as the highest paid, most competitive field of finance to get into.

>Every block probably has 10 prop firms waiting to take anybody
>min wage to $4-5K a day
What kind of qualifications or portfolio do they require, though?
Do you think the job market for prop trading will stay like that in the coming years? I'm only interested in sales and trading but kind of gave up on the idea to become a trader since I can't go to an elite school.

[Anonymous No.575350]

>>575348

You'll need at least a 1-2 year track record of your trading strategy. It doesn't have to be 100% returns I got rich kinda thing. Even a 10% return on your Grandma's margin portfolio would be good enough for most places.

There will always be prop firms. They collect commissions plus profit splits, and the trader usually covers losses. Our firms has always been profitable.

However, I advise staying away from the ones who make you pay for some training or educational system before you can trade with them. These guys charge outrageous fees (upwards to $5K) for some program you could find to Google just so they can claim they are an educational company and not a financial institution to prevent registering with the SEC/FINRA. They never last more than 1-2 years before getting shut down.

[Anonymous No.575351]

>>572046

Honestly you want both, and even less looked at is economic history.

If you take any upper level econ class they basically throw an equation on the board and tell you that "this is economics".

But personally what helped me get more context behind the number was looking at economic history. When you understand past economies and why they failed you can get an idea of what works and what doesnt. This can really help your investor game when looking at current regulations and what not.

The math is important. But if you want longer term outlooks you need to understand context - that is where economics and economic history comes in. You can not have one without the other.

[Anonymous No.575352]

>>575350

That's about getting into a prop firm, not private equity.

[Anonymous No.575353]

>>575350
Ok. And apart from that track record, they don't ask for any specific qualifications, they don't recruit from any schools in particular (I heard UChicago was a feeder to a lot of prop firms) or anything?

Thanks, I'll keep that in mind. Typically, how much does the average trader make at such a firm?
Are there big gaps between bonuses/salaries at small, unknown prop firms and bigger, more well-known ones like Optiver?

[Anonymous No.575357]

>>575353

I know of some that recruits from schools, but it's not a requirement to be a college grad.

When I first began trading, I was trading equities. I got signed to a prop firm and made anywhere from $100 a day to $10K a day, depending on my performance. By the end of the stint, I was trading 1-2K lot sizes. I took 65% split. Then I got into futures trading with a different firm (last firm terminated my contract over a dispute) and began making $10K a day trading crude. Splits there was 80%. In about 2 years, I got promoted to risk manager and took a base salary of $60K but kept trading as well. Then I decided to go to college (I was a drop out with a GED before all of this) and got my degree in Finance and Business Management. When I came back, the equity partner that funded the firm asked if I wanted to work for them. And I've been here since 2004.

As long as you want it, you can make it in Chicago. In NYC, you basically need to be a Ivy League grad with rich parents with connections. They aren't going to hire a banker who can't bring in big bucks.

[Anonymous No.575359]

>>575357
That's nice. I'll definitely focus on Chicago then. Is it a good city to live in?

>got my degree in Finance and Business Management
Do you feel like it's helped you with anything?

[Anonymous No.575361]

>>575359

Personal accomplishments certainly. I always felt as if I couldn't be good at what I did, I'd be back to working min wage jobs. Chicago is nice. I'm from a small town, so of course I miss the country.

[Anonymous No.575362]

>>575361
I see. How old are you now if you don't mind me asking?

[Anonymous No.575375]

>>575357
I've made ~45% yearly returns for the past 4 years trading equities and forex starting with half a million dollars. What kind of "edge" does this give me in Chicago?

What are the best prop trading firms in Chicago? I'm also a dropout, but I was studying finance at a top school for a couple years.

[Anonymous No.575389]

>>575362
I turn 35 in January.

>>575375
I don't know of many in Forex. And it depends. Chopper Trading is nice for younger people. You get free club seats to all of the Chicago sports team.

[Anonymous No.575390]

>>575334

I've taken it multiple times through my life in different moods and always score INTJ or mildly ENTJ

Mad?

[Anonymous No.575391]

>>575109

Did you really sleep in a cot

>Mfw want to sell my soul to the jew and become rich
>Mfw way too lazy to do those hours

[Anonymous No.575392]

>>575334
I'm a scientist and a psychologist,

they have incredibly good accuracy for a test of this nature,

it is not a x=1, y=3 therefore x+y=4 kind of test,

If you read deeper into it you will better understand the purpose, and the validity of the test.

In time better measures will be developed.

IQ testing is widely regarded as the most robust psychometric measure, yet people frequently score varyingly

[Anonymous No.575396]

>>575339
>Private equity firm

>funding prop firms

the fuck is this?

is this legit? firms actually do this?

What would they base their ROI projects on??

"past performance is not a guarantee of future performance" -Lloyd Blankfien during the financial crisis of 2008.

[Anonymous No.575399]

>>575348
>trader
>elite school

Isn't the prestige more for IB types,

trading is one man and his performance no?

[Anonymous No.575425]

>>575339
>>575342
>>575350
>>575352
>>575357
>>575361
>>575389


Just a note: The prop funds this guy is talking about is very different from the HFT-type prop trading firms like Jane Street, DE Shaw, etc

[Anonymous No.575434]

>>575425
What are the main differences?

I know that Jane Street and the rest recruit quant types because of different strategies but is that it?

[Anonymous No.575474]

>>572270
>he thinks 86k no experience, starting is low.

I didnt pull that number out of my ass either. That was the LOWEST pay of the seniors in my math program at our Uni who sought jobs in banking/finance. 3 of the students have had signed employment contracts to begin in may (graduation) since the start of this school year.

[Anonymous No.575484]

>>572286
A philosophy degree at harvard is one of their tougher degrees. Why pick that as an example? Is it because of >le philosphy student memes at state universities? Philosophy and other academia-sphere subjects are exceptionally hard at the ivy league level, since those institutions contributions to the subjects basically define what these subjects are.

[Anonymous No.575529]

>>575434
You don't put in any of your own money, you don't get commissions.

You get paid a (high!) salary like any other job, with bonus based on your performance of course.

You run the firm's strategies (under your purview), not some random strategy you come up on your own.

[Anonymous No.575531]

>>572046
Can confirm. One of my professors is head of Quant Stategies at Bessemer Trust.

The guy has funds from all over the world calling him asking him if he/if he knows anyone who might be interested in heading their quant department.

Needless to say, he's rolling in fucking money.

[Anonymous No.575535]

>>575529
In terms of potential earnings, is algo/high freq trading generally more lucrative to employees than prop trading?

[Anonymous No.575537]

>>575535
Let's put it this way:

Prop trading is basically trading your own money, so it has infinite upside.

Algo/HFT has higher Sharpe by far.

[Anonymous No.575540]

>>575537
And by Sharpe, I don't mean the Sharpe ratio of the strategies, but the Sharpe ratio of your income.

[Anonymous No.575541]

>>575537
>trading your own money
Well, the firm's money. No?

>higher Sharpe by far
So a high income is truly much more likely when doing Algo/HFT? Is there that much of a gap between the compensations of quants and those of prop traders?

Are the people who bring in around >1k per day that rare?

[Anonymous No.575742]

>>575541

You're correct. There's a great difference in Jane Street and some prop shop set up to give people leverage on their own strategies.

All prop firms, you are trading the firm's capital. They own the stocks. You are simply depositing money to cover losses and commissions and they give you leverage based on your deposit.

Say you have $5K. You deposit $5K and they give you 10x leverage. You have $50K buy power to trade with now. But you only have $5K to lose. Which can be one trade if you don't know what you're doing. The firms make money if you make money. The more money you make, the more you trade, and the more they make on commission. This is how 90% of prop firms run. Some, like Jane Street or SMB are much more selective. Some don't require you to submit a track record at all (they just want your money and look at you as a customer and not a partner)

[Anonymous No.575758]

>>575742
This is so wrong it hurts. Only prop shops that absolutely suck require you to put up your own capital.

Most legit places will pay a salary and then portion of what you earn for the firm.

Source: I just got an offer with several leading prop firms for after graduation and researched the shit out of the industry to get where I am.

>>575541
Tons of people clear 1k/day in top shops. Starting annual pay is typically between 100k and 180k and goes up very rapidly. Many people are earning mid 6 figures within a few years with a few clearing 7 figs.

[Anonymous No.575764]

>>575758

Your source isn't very justifiable. There's been prop desks and broker/dealers around for decades that require capital. And starting pay is no where near 100-180K. You sound like a Comp Sci grad with way too high of expectations because you read on Glassdoor that Google engineers make six figures, so you assume you will.

[Anonymous No.575768]

>>575764
>There's been prop desks and broker/dealers around for decades that require capital.

Yes there are. But they aren't Jane Street / DE Shaw / IMC / Optiver / Jump / DRW / SIG and so on.

This isn't just a big-vs-small prop shop thing either. There are lots of smaller prop-trading firms that operate on the same basis: salary+performance bonus.

Like I said, "prop trading firms" can refer to two very different lines of businesses, and your comments are confusing the two (especially when you mention Jane Street.)

Source: Received a $95k a year (base) offer from a smaller prop trading firm last year. (Didn't take it though)

>>575758
Which are you going to? Just curious.

[Anonymous No.575770]

>>575768

I won't argue. You know everything.

[Anonymous No.575773]

>>575764
What you are referring to isn't a prop shop, but more of an arcade. You put money up, they lever it up and then kill you on fees and commissions until you are gone. There's little training and almost nobody makes it. It's all churn and burn.

>>575768
Don't really want to post the exact firm name, but it's a firm founded by former Optiver traders. Curious where yours was as well and what you turned it down for?

[Anonymous No.575780]

>>575773
Clarification: technically, arcades are a subset of prop shops. However, lumping them together is a huge mistake. There is a world of difference between the T3s of the world and the Optivers of the world.

[Anonymous No.575787]

>>575773
To be fair to him, I've seen those firms being referred to as prop shops too. And if you think about it, they fit the term "proprietary trading" exactly.

Mine was a really small one, an offshoot from some guys from SIG. I turned it down for a quant asset management firm though (base pay is about the same). I'm decent at math/stat/programming, but I'm no good under stress and I figured that I wouldn't be a very good trader.

[Anonymous No.576229]

Hi guys, I'm a fundamental hedge fund analyst in NY. I also graduated with a degree in history.

The amount of incorrect information in this thread is mind blowing. Where's the guy who keeps bringing up Jane Street/DE Shaw/etc? Whoever you are, you need to stop posting because you suck.

I can probably answer any questions, I have lots of quant friends so I know about that space as well.

[Anonymous No.576234]

>>576229
>Where's the guy who keeps bringing up Jane Street/DE Shaw/etc? Whoever you are, you need to stop posting because you suck.

Yes, what's wrong?

[Anonymous No.576238]

>>576229
Would having a computer science degree help me to get a hedge fund job?

[Anonymous No.576240]

>>576229
how the fuck did you get that job anyway?

with all due respect

[Anonymous No.576241]

>>576234
Not you, you're good. I'm talking about OP. Lots of over-generalizations, false comparisons, etc on his part. Lots of basic misunderstandings about what those types of shops do exactly

[Anonymous No.576247]

>>572046
You think math is the most important? That would be fantastic, but unfortunately I have my doubts. I'm majoring in mathematics and have another item on my resume that is very valuable (though because it is so unique it would identify my or at least my school), but unfortunately I have a shitty GPA (think right around 3.0), which is due to my selection of major (among other things), and go to a non-target school (big engineering/science school, but not a really big finance school). I've learned a shitload of finance/accounting as I want to be an investment banker, however I usually get one of two responses: either my GPA is too low or the person I'm speaking to assumes that I am not knowledgeable in finance and doesn't have the time to test my knowledge. I've known for about two years that I want to do banking, and have therefore bought accounting books, sat in on finance classes I was not able to take because of bullshit prerequisites, polished my story to near perfection, and built my own models (valuation through comps and DCF, merger model, and am working on an LBO model now). I am very knowledgeable and passionate about wanting to do investment banking, but I am unable to get my foot in the door. Any advice from someone who also majored in mathematics?

[Anonymous No.576248]

>>576240
Sure.

First, I'm not in a quant oriented positions - something like that actually does require a strong grasp on math, statistics and academic economics. None of which are really my cup of tea.

I studied history because it was the closest thing to an investing major that I could find. The way you learn to think when studying history - IE, conditioning yourself to tolerate others' opinions without dismissing them, digging into a deep research process and learning how to argue and support your opinion are all hugely important qualities that make a good investor that are very overlooked by students.

It was more exciting for me to be in a class of 15-20 actively discussing a topic then it was to be in a 100 person lecture hall taking notes on accounting/finance concepts that I could just study myself on my couch. And so that's what I did.

I didn't go through investment banking or anything, I started on the buyside. The only way you're gonna be able to do that is if you can convince someone that you can hit the ground running and won't take a lot of time to train then you can make it work. For me, I had been writing my own research reports and monitoring a portfolio since my sophomore year. By my senior year I was the portfolio manager of my school's investment fund and had success with bringing about a fund strategy change. I also networked like a mad man. Starting my freshman year I was cold calling for internship opportunities, and I worked (mostly unpaid) every spring, winter and summer break I had.

By the time I actually graduated and started on the buyside, it didn't really feel like too much of a transition from what I was already doing other than the location and the fact I was getting paid.

But yeah, if thinking of a new investment idea doesn't get you hard you probably won't make it.

[Anonymous No.576250]

>>576247
As a math major: IBD people don't care about your math major. They do care about shitty GPAs though (unless you network like a demon, or get in on some diversity program).

Take easy classes to boost your GPA, ignore the pursuit of Math knowledge. And then do everything else regular IBD candidates need to do.

Caveat: Not an IBD person, but I had friends recruiting for it.

[Anonymous No.576251]

>>576248

Have you picked up any engineering skills to develop your strategies and ideas? I know these days with all of the information, it's hard to keep up unless you know Python or C# or something. I worked in S&T back in the early 00s and we had different guys for each piece of the puzzle. But now most funds are run by a small hand full doing everything.

[Anonymous No.576256]

>>576251
I've really been meaning to get to Python or C# soon...as soon as I finish the CFA I mean to devote some time to it.

I only know basic HTML at most, and there are a loooooooooot of small things around work that could definitely be automated or made easier with some quick coding.

For the most part I just stick to adding, subtracting, multiplying and dividing to get what I need lol. I spent a summer on the sell side and my analyst had some regression models he used to forecast certain revenue segments, and I'll pull something like that out if I think it'd work. That said, its easy for me to make a 20+ tab model for one company still.

[Anonymous No.576260]

>>576256

I took a class at a local college in Python to develop a stock screener better than what anything I've found has to offer. And I've created a ton of big data indicators. Made life a lot easier when researching new companies. I've never built fundamental models, but my technical analysis has improved over the years by speeding up the processes knowing Python. I still use ThinkOrSwim over Bloomberg because I'm too stubborn to learn any other script than ThinkScript.

[Anonymous No.576298]

>>576250
Yeah, I have noticed that they seem to care about gpas. Unfortunately, I've taken a lot of very challenging courses, and am not in a position where I can take more easy classes to boost my gpa. I've been networking very hard, and will absolutely continue to do so. I know that this is perhaps the single most helpful thing I can do, especially because I'm your standard middle class white male so diversity programs are not really an option. I just can't wait until after I get my first job when my gpa no longer matters and I can actually point to work experience.

[Anonymous No.576301]

>>576298
Yea, sorry I can't be of more help.

Recruiting's a bitch, but if you do it well (and do your job well), you'll hopefully never be in the same position again.

[Anonymous No.576305]

>>576256
Do you know people who work in prop trading?
If so, would you have any tips for someone trying to get in?

[Anonymous No.576309]

>>575160
I'm ENTJ and my dad was ENTJ. He makes 200k and I am double majoring and minoring so hopefully it works out.

[Anonymous No.576416]

Bump

[Anonymous No.576454]

>>572119
This. You can pretty much stop reading the thread after that post. There are many different fields on wall street and programming/math won't help with plenty of them.

[Anonymous No.576698]

>>576305
Yes,

Unless you're a prodigy of some sort then I'd avoid i simply because for the amount of risk you're taking you get an almost 0 return on transferable skills when you [inevitably] lose your job. Prop trading is dying - you can't really do it at the big banks anymore because of the regs placed on their balance sheet's, and the majority of shops you can find in Chi-town are hit or miss. A lot of them require you to front your own cash for training and for your initial book.

[Anonymous No.576726]

>>576298
Why do you wanna go into IB so desperately? If I were you I would try to get another finance job and if you are good you can still switch also you will be able to build up a network.

[Anonymous No.576769]

>>576698
Fuck, so where do I go if I'm willing to work extremely hard, take a lot of risk but have very high expectations when it comes to my compensation?

Tech isn't an option because the SV apps bubble is soon going to burst. And if prop trading is dying, then what's left?

IB isn't an option, because I don't come from a top 20 school.

Can independent "home" traders make any money? I hear of people making a very decent income out of a few hours of trading at home per day, and some even manage to rake in hundreds of thousands. What do you think?

[Anonymous No.576780]

>>576769
(Sorry to be that guy again, but prop trading in the sense of "put in your own money" may be dying especially at big banks, but if anything the HFT/algo prop shops are doing well, although not as well as in their heyday before the crash. The fact that the banks can no longer prop trade means that these other market-makers are in there eating up market share.)

>Fuck, so where do I go if I'm willing to work extremely hard, take a lot of risk but have very high expectations when it comes to my compensation?

Entrepreneurship. If you want to work your ass off, face the risk of coming out with no money, and want infinite upside, go start your own business.

It doesn't seem like you want those things though. Because whether it's IBD or tech or even prop trading, you will need to work hard, you will have high compensation, and there will be risks associated with whatever field you choose, but you're still shooting everything down.

Pro-top: Stop "optimizing" and just do something.

[Anonymous No.576792]

>>576780
I heard that soon Wall Street (and finance in general) will return to its former glory (extremely high compensations) while SV and the Bay Area will crash. The person who told me that didn't elaborate, but what do you think about that statement?

>It doesn't seem like you really want those things
But I do. I'm young, I don't give a shit about the hours I put in. I just don't want to work 100 hour weeks if I'm heading towards a dead end.

>IBD
I'm shooting it down because I can't get in there without a fancy degree. I don't have that. I don't have an amazing network either.
>tech
>prop trading
Well I have conflicting information on those two, as mentioned earlier.

>Stop "optimizing"
You're right man, I should, but I'm trying to find *the* thing.
If I were intelligent enough to pursue a PhD in math or physics I'd try to get into that whole quant thing, but college taught me that this kind of stuff wasn't for me. I'm good at sales, I work hard, and I have other strong points, but mathematical prowess isn't one of them.

[Anonymous No.576800]

>>575160
ENTJ is just an INTJ who's figured out how to play the game.

Not that myers briggs is any more valid than astrology...

[Anonymous No.576804]

>>576769

>IB isn't an option, because I don't come from a top 20 school.

You don't need to go to a top 20 school to get IB, you just have to network really hard and put yourself out there. Don't aim for the MS/JP/GS/Centerview/etcs of the world, look for local boutiques or middle market banks in your area, those are really good starting points and are a lot easier to get into relative to the top banks.

>Can independent "home" traders make any money? I hear of people making a very decent income out of a few hours of trading at home per day, and some even manage to rake in hundreds of thousands. What do you think?

Don't do this.

>>576780

>I heard that soon Wall Street (and finance in general) will return to its former glory (extremely high compensations) while SV and the Bay Area will crash.

Comp is definitely on an upward trend on the Street, but I wouldn't expect Pre-2008 levels any time soon. I also don't see a reason for SV and the Bay Area to crash because the Street has been raising comp over recent years to stop the brain drain of kids interested in going to Cali working in tech. This is also the reason why many banks are coming out with "no working over the weekend" policies.

[Anonymous No.576812]

If I wrote a "how to break into wall st" post would people be interested in reading it?

[Anonymous No.576814]

>>576804
>you just have to network really hard
Post-college, how?
I know how to sell myself pretty well, but I have a limited network. The few people I know probably couldn't get me an internship.
>look for local boutiques or middle market banks in your area
Are they valuable on a resume?
Will I need an MBA if I want to switch to a small boutique-type firm to a position at a big IB, a private equity firm or a hedge fund?
>lot easier to get into relative to the top banks
How so?

>Don't do this
Why exactly? It seems that with a lot of dedication, making money like that would be definitely possible. Also, see https://archive.moe/biz/thread/560017/

>Pre-2008 levels any time soon
Perhaps not, but they're trying to make it this way, right? Over the past years I've heard that comp on the Street wasn't attractive at all, and that the "seven figures is nothing to be particularly proud of in front desk finance" thing was not true anymore.
How do you think compensations will be evolving in the coming years?

>>576812
Yes, definitely.

[Anonymous No.576838]

>>576812
Yes. Of course there are tons of content like this out there though. What is/are the best way(s) to get into a hedge fund

[Anonymous No.576871]

>>576814
>Post-college, how? I know how to sell myself pretty well, but I have a limited network. The few people I know probably couldn't get me an internship

The strategy I used in college was just hitting up literally anyone who sounded like they had the job I wanted on LinkedIn. I'd send them a message or e-mail asking to chat about their jobs for 15min. Most of the time it didn't work and I never heard back, some of the time I did and they'd take the call, and it only takes one to get you a job. I got my first internship my freshman year with no experience, but I sent around 300 e-mails and had dozens of phone calls before some guy took a chance on me. After that initial networking surge its all about maintaining good relationships and picking up new contacts along the way.

The best way to sell yourself is to do the work you'd be expected to do on the job and send it as a sample along with your resume. That's really the best way, as it shows initiative on your part, the capacity to do the work, and the ability to comprehend and produce a quality product. You can have sub-par grades but still get in if you can do that, because GPA has zero correlation to job performance. So if someone only shows them a 4.0 GPA but they haven't done anything else, you haven't proved anything other than you know how to work the school system.

>Are they valuable on a resume?
ANY work experience is valuable on a resume, especially deal experience. Boutique and middle market banks often run smaller teams, so you have the chance to be extremely involved in the deal process and be more engaged in the process than analysts at bulge bracket banks, who for the most part only work on pitchbooks and models. You can be a big fish in a small pond.

[Anonymous No.576874]

>>576814
>Will I need an MBA if I want to switch to a small boutique-type firm to a position at a big IB, a private equity firm or a hedge fund?
Depends, but a good MBA is a great way to re brand yourself after a few years on the job, and you'd definitely need one if you want to get into a PE or hedge fund without prior experience.

>How so?
Smaller shops have less structured recruiting processes, so you have a better chance of at least having your resume looked at by eyes than getting automatically filtered out by a bulge brackets HR filter for not having a 3.7+ or other buzz words they look for.

>Why exactly? It seems that with a lot of dedication, making money like that would be definitely possible.
With a lot of dedication, sure. The people who have success at that are the exception, do you think you have the ability to be the exception?

>Perhaps not, but they're trying to make it this way, right? Over the past years I've heard that comp on the Street wasn't attractive at all, and that the "seven figures is nothing to be particularly proud of in front desk finance" thing was not true anymore.
How do you think compensations will be evolving in the coming years?
They are trying to make comp and lifestyle more attractive relative to comp and lifestyle in tech firms or silicon valley companies. All else depends on your perception of big wealth and comp. I started out at $50k in a year 1st year banking analysts got $80. Also anyone who scoffs at a 7 fig pay check should be disregarded. A banking MD would kill for a 7 fig year.

[Anonymous No.576879]

>>576812
>>576838
>>576814

I'll see about getting to it later today. Shit posting from work, but if you book mark this thread I'll get around to responding throughout the day when i get chances.

[Anonymous No.576883]

What if my brain sucks for math, how do i become rich then.

[Anonymous No.577041]

>>576726
True, that is what I am realistically expecting to happen, but I'd really like to start out in IB. I want to go into IB because I really like the type of work. I've really enjoyed digging through companies' financials and building out working models for them. I think it's really the same thing that first interested me in mathematics: being able to come up with a model/formula/etc. that outputs predictions of the future based on assumptions. I understand that maybe only 30% of and IB analyst's day is actually doing this while the other 70% is building powerpoint presentations and pitch books, but I still want to do it. It also helps that IB would give me a lot of career flexibility.

[Anonymous No.577051]

>>576301
Yeah, no I understand. I do appreciate the help you've given me, though. It will be different once I'm on the same playing field with everyone else doing effectively the same work. Not to discount the hard work that others may have put in to their degrees, but it's pretty disheartening to see people coast through liberal arts majors at ivy league schools with severe grade inflation get IB jobs, while I'm busting my ass on a STEM major in a school known for heavy grade deflation and my gpa disqualifies me from even being able to talk to someone.

[Anonymous No.577073]

>>577041
>I understand that maybe only 30% of and IB analyst's day is actually doing this while the other 70% is building powerpoint presentations and pitch books,

Its more like 10% modeling/financial statement reading, and the rest powerpointing, pitchbooking, and other bullshit.

As an IB analyst, you are not going to be providing any of your own thoughts on a company's performance

[Anonymous No.577144]

>>577073
Right, I understand that. Most of what you are doing is building the materials that your MDs will use to sell your bank's ability to execute the transaction, and I understand that. You have to pay your dues before you can get very high in the hierarchy.

[Anonymous No.577210]

>>575143
>"sales is for people who want to work at bestbuy."

Two of the richest people in the world are Bill Gates and Larry Ellison. What do they do? Sell technology to enterprise. Both were very good techs, and both were also very good salesmen. So both skills come in handy.

If you look at the Forbes 400 richest list you see a lot of tech guys. Not many people made tens of billions just by being a salesman.

> Meanwhile, families in India and China are popping out thousands of future engineers/programmers a day, who are going to end up far more disciplined, inexpensive, and capable than their kids will ever be.

Only low-tier techs have to worry about this.

[Anonymous No.577223]

>Someone who knows calculus and statistics backwards and forwards, and is a good programmer, is going to get a lot farther than someone who knows all about Keynes and Milton Friedman.

[Anonymous No.577244]

[Anonymous No.577245]

>>577223
I'm a double major in math and Econ so I get the benefits of both. Would highly recommend.

[Anonymous No.577349]

>>577144
To be honest you sounds like you should be getting into technical analysis/research/trading. Those things have a lot more to do with mathematical models than an IB has. If you want to work as a quant go to a HF or some prop shop. Most IBs are concerned with M&A or emissions. Unless you are really into accounting, there isnt a whole lot that has to do with your interests.

[Anonymous No.577371]

>>572046
You know there are other jobs than being a quant on wall street right?

[Anonymous No.578168]

>>577349
You'd be amazed how many times I've heard that. I am currently trying to network my way into interviews at a couple of quant HFs.

I really do the enjoy the accounting, though. Perhaps my opinion will change after doing it for 90 hours a week, but I do enjoy the work I've done that's similar to it. Without getting into too much detail, I am a member of a group where I spend probably 20 hours a week analyzing securities. My favorite part by far has been digging through the companies' financials and understanding how everything flows and what drives performance. The reason why I bring up mathematical modeling is that I think the reason why I enjoy the accounting, building the models, and understanding the companies is because I think the modeling aspect is similar to a large part of mathematical modeling. This very broad idea is what originally brought me to mathematics. I don't know if that makes sense because it's kind of difficult to explain. I usually simplify it when answering the "why IB?" questions for that reason.

I also like the flexibility IB offers, I like the very very steep learning curve that IB has, and I like the culture IB is known for over S&T (I know that is a massive generalization, but I'm speaking in generalities). Not that I dislike the people I've met in S&T, I simply feel that I'd fit better in IB.

[Anonymous No.578786]

>>578168
Sounds like you enjoy fundamental analysis. Quant HFs don't really do that, if you want to be at a quant HF you should be working on your computer science masters from MIT.

[Anonymous No.579057]

>>578786
I probably misstated that. It's a fairly quant type of job at a hedge fund. My weakness there is that I need to get much better at programming, though. I would say that the assessment that I like fundamental analysis is pretty fair. I would say this interest along with the environment of investment banking (steep learning curve, very smart and motivated coworkers, large responsibility early on, etc.) is why I want to go into IB. I'm also looking at corporate finance gigs, but they generally don't give employees the same amount of experience in as short of a time as IB.

[Anonymous No.579910]

>>577051
Duuuuuke

[Anonymous No.579999]

>>579910
Close, Duke was one of my options, but money and a program that Duke doesn't have made me choose a different school in the elite state school tier not in NC.