/biz/ - Business & Finance

[Anonymous No.55958045]

What are your best arguments against Bitcoin maximalism?
>t. btc maxi who has yet to hear a good argument

[Anonymous No.55958088]

>>55958045
BTC is ultimately deflationary. It's also a massive Trojan Horse designed for tracing and recording every single transaction you ever make. If you were an Orwellian shadow oligarchy wouldn't you want nothing more than a total ledger of every transaction made? It paves the way for Internet IDs as a requirement to operate. It's literally mark of the beast tier technology.

XMR on the other hand is freedom. Technology on the side of humanity.

BTC as a future is literally techocratic Hell.

[Anonymous No.55958090]

>>55958045
Ethereum. Simply Ethereum existing.
It does everything BTC does but it better and does more.

[Anonymous No.55958116]

>>55958045
2 mining pools control the entire chain

[Anonymous No.55958121]

>>55958045
>Central bank already owns over 50% of the block chain
>Can be controlled more effectively than any commodity to act as a deflationary pressure release valve
It's just sorta a retarded thing to do when you could literally buy anything else. If you made money then that's fantastic, why not invest in something like land, a business, or gold?

[Anonymous No.55958124]

BTC won't save you from the state. If the men with guns and bullets come and kill you today your seed phrase will not protect you. That simple fact undoes the entire logic of BTC as a cultural force.

[Anonymous No.55958130]

>>55958088
Also this. I e never seen a Bitcoin tranny refute any of these

[Anonymous No.55958141]

>>55958045
Everyone likes to promote its deflationary aspect as being amazing.

Now let's imagine the US Dollar is deflationary.

What would happen if Jeff Bezos, Bill Gates, and Elon Musk could hold onto their trillions of dollars, with ZERO risk, and MAKE money.

No investing, no stocks, just cash.

The rich would become 100x more wealthy than they ever have before.

They would have zero reason to invest any of their funds (this would go for large businesses with massive reserves, too, of course) causing an insane dump to the economy.

The fact the US Dollar loses value year by year ensures companies and the wealthy put their money back into the economy/their own businesses.

[Anonymous No.55958166]

>>55958141
Yes because between 1870-1900 the U.S. economy famously didn't grow and saw no innovation due to deflation.

[Anonymous No.55958222]

>>55958045
Globohomo convinced BTC community in 2017 to introduce centralizing tendencies rhat will leave BTC in their hands, givijg them the power to censor and M2 Bitcoin print it to hell.

[Anonymous No.55958244]

>>55958166
In fact the only deflationary period during that time was the Great Depression . The rest of the time was inflation

[Anonymous No.55958423]

>>55958088
first post best post

[Anonymous No.55958499]

>>55958045
BTC has real value based on the technology. But
>number go up
is based on hype and has ponzi scheme characteristics. Who's gonna buy your bags at this point? The desperate wagie who can't afford to pay rent and feed himself?

[Anonymous No.55958654]

>>55958045
The project was hijacked by outside interests and moonbros. It is doomed to fail.
>>55958088
>>55958222
Checked and based.

[Anonymous No.55958719]

>>55958045
>has yet to understand a good argument
you'll learn eventually

[Anonymous No.55958757]

>>55958499
>who can't afford to pay rent and feed himself?
I was once in the trench; it was my investment in crypto that liberated me from such a hopeless situation of leaving from hand to mouth. I'm still buying those assumed scam bags of yours, not just BTC but other alts like Eth, Krest, BnB, Matic, and Cfx. Label and tag them as scam retards; I don't fucking care. After a year, come back and see how far we might have gone.

[Anonymous No.55958767]

>>55958088
You view the world backwards, it's not top-down, it's bottom-up, we don't need to hide from the oligarchy, the oligarchy needs to hide from us. Without fiat their 'power' evaporates into nothingness, fiat is the lever they use to manipulate Economy, but this influence is perverse and inefficient, while Economy is naturally positive sum, fiat allows the manipulation of Economy to favor zero and even negative sum economic transactions! Blasphemy! Economy will not abide -- "The market ahh finds a way" -- and a way it found.

[Anonymous No.55958780]

>>55958124
It gives you a chance to run away. You still can get shot in the back though.

[Anonymous No.55958795]

>>55958767
This. I always make a point to bring this up.

[Anonymous No.55958798]

>>55958088
you can also argue the same for monero's viewkey, go to jail if you don't publish your proofs for any purchases and the government can't connect transactions
you can equally not connect identities on bitcoin if you don't do kyc and use coinjoins and address reuse, for both btc and xmr the government can become a problem, but xmr works more easily by default, though still infinitely inflationary in terms of supply

>>55958124
>if
why does that not happen?

>>55958116
you don't know how to count

>>55958121
>why not invest in something worse? really why?
compare things

>>55958141
keynesians tricks do not work anymore
unless the population reverse back to exponential growth, the stock market (current system) will always outperform a fixed supply money in terms of value appreciation
people always have reasons to invest

[Anonymous No.55958807]

>>55958045
Too little development around what to actually do with BTC. As a BTC holder/consumer I would like:
>near instant, very cheap BTC transfers with a minimum of trust assumptions, ideally complete end to end decentralisation for that path
>extremely simple mixing and privacy services, again with a minimum of trust assumptions
>high quality wallets and self custody solutions

Very few developers are building these functionalities to a global standard on BTC. Development for such things is happening much faster on Ethereum. Bitcoin has basically lost the mindshare of top gigabrained devs and as long as that's the case there will be room for other ecosystems that are iterating better and faster.

[Anonymous No.55958811]

>>55958124
Hobbes's Leviathan is a Meme Complex as per Dawkins, Law is ex post facto codification of prevailing meme complexes, Law has no power, State has no power, meme complexes hold all the power attributed to these institutions. The world is bottom up not top down, emergent, organic, the State a dying memetic parasite, feebly grasping for relevancy after technology obsolesced it's function (propagation & memetic convergence) within the meme complex. "Nothing ever happens" "everything is fake and gay" why? Because the State is dying, if not already dead, a bloated memetic corpse puppeteered by grifters.

[Anonymous No.55958921]

>>55958141
The borderline hyperinflationary last half century sure did wonders for wealth equality! Moron. Dumbfuck. Debasement is a parasitic transfer of resources from income earners to asset holders as an increase in money supply will naturally inflate assets. Money is not resources, "hoarding" money does not reduce resources, nor enable the hoarder to multiply their wealth in a risk free manner, risk free returns only exist under perverse monetary systems like fiat

[Anonymous No.55959302]

>>55958045
>What are your best arguments against Bitcoin maximalism?
Every chain that isn't designed for smart contracts can never fulfill its proposed purpose of decentralization. That includes Bitcoin.

Why?
Because transactions never exist in a vacuum.
Money and sending of money are almost always merely one out of two parts of a trade. You send money, you receive goods or services in return. If only one part of this trade, namely the money, is decentralized, there is no point. You still entirely rely on a centralized entity to fulfill their end of the deal, or you get nothing.

Smart contracts, however, can solve this. It can decentralize the other part of the trade too. Finally the loop can be closed and you can actually use your crypto without having to rely on centralized parties at all. How? By automatically and provably invoking code to be run when a transaction is received. This code can fulfill the other end of the trade.
Are smart contracts perfectly capable for this? No, for example the transfer of physical goods is hard to accomplish without some centralization, but more and more of the world is digital. At least it can do SOME things in a completely decentralized way, which is more than literally nothing as is the case with f.ex. bitcoin.

Make no mistake, without programmability, there is literally no point at all to your blockchain. If at any point you need to rely on a centralized entity to make use of your crypto in literally any way, then the decentralization is a complete illusion. Smoke and mirrors.

Then of course there's the abhorrent damage that proof of work does, but I've yet to meet a bitcoin maxi that even acknowledges that PoW is a problem, so I'm not going to focus on that because I don't want to partake in such an infuriating "discussion" ever again.

[Anonymous No.55959430]

>>55959302
I'll never understand how unimaginative and stupid you have to be to not see the INSANE VALUE PROPOSITION of programmable money, vs just digital money. Even if Bitcoin maxis can't see this, Bitcoin is still a subset of Ethereum and performs LIKE SHIT in their miniscule functional overlap. Even on their "inflation" narrative it has lost to Ethereum. It is literal dogshit vaporware with a cult following of blockchain illiterates; if you don't believe me, go spend time in a Bitcoin circle - and if you can't deduct you're surrounded by literal morons, you're a moron too.

[Anonymous No.55959486]

>>55959302
>decentralization
This remains the main purpose. Normies need to stop fighting about chains and focus on the products and problems each is solving. I don't care if it's ETH or BTC. I buy from both so long as it's promising. AstraDAO is currently at the top of my list. Index comes easy with it. Good returns is the priority a the end of the day.

[Anonymous No.55959526]

So far none of the arguments are very good in this thread. bitcoin being slow and not anonymous are both true but they don't matter. Social credit systems only work if government controls your money, if you have the capacity to spend it or transfer it to other coins outside of their control and bypass fiat entirely then this doesn't matter. Proof of this is already happening in places like venezuela.
>>55959430
Ethereum is centralised PoS shit that is literally run by a pedo. People who shill shitcoins like eth are just bugmen who love the technology but who don't understand the whole point of crypto, like yourself.

I'm not even a maxi but threads like this make me realise the actual gulf in intelligence and knowledge between the bitcoin maxis and typical pajeet zoomers obsessed with their shitcoins that are all controlled by globohomo VCs.

[Anonymous No.55959534]

>>55958088
Based boomer

[Anonymous No.55959621]

>>55959302
Decentralization is good for censorship resistance. It's really bad for speed, efficiency, and cost. Bitcoin, or any alternative money, needs decentralization to exist. But the idea that we're moving to some decentralized internet 3.0 utopia is delusional. Eth sold us this lie 8 years ago and to date the only actual use-case for the ethereum blockchain is launching shitcoins (0 value to the world).

The only real other use-case was gambling but even that has been rendered DOA by the high costs.

The first and most important function of blockchain is sovereign money. No blockchain does this better than bitcoin. Code can always be adopted but bitcoin's launch is something that no crypto can ever replicate. Bitcoin remains the most fair launch in the history of crypto and that will never change.

Decentralized money is extremely powerful, but its value is latent. Talk shit about banks all you want but they serve the common person extremely well. Normies see crypto as a get-rich-quick scheme where they buy with dollars, hold, and then sell for more dollars. They don't enjoy a single benefit of crypto. Most will never even take custody of their coins. Bitcoin can be used to hedge inflation but its volatility makes this dubious. Today crypto primarily serves the interests of the disenfranchised, the criminals, the fraudsters, the tax cheats. But that can all change. As government around the world continue to print money, as banks become more and more invasive, and payment processors become more and more restrictive the demand for an alternative rises. And if this whole system comes crashing down and fails the common man Bitcoin will be waiting to serve him. If this happens, it'll be extremely valuable so buy some.

Or, it might go to $0 tomorrow, so don't.

[Anonymous No.55959657]

>>55959526
literal drivel
lets hear a single tangible argument from you

[Anonymous No.55959662]

>>55959526
>So far none of the arguments are very good in this thread
I'd love to hear your response to >>55959302

Other than the blatant and irrelevant lies about Ethereum in the later half of your post, of course.

[Anonymous No.55959663]

it
doesn't
scale

[Anonymous No.55959709]

>>55959621
>the only actual use-case for the ethereum blockchain is launching shitcoins (0 value to the world).
sc wallets, nfts, tokenization, defi, socials, funding, privacy, payments, ens, scaling, etc. - there is so much latent (and realized) potential enabled by programmability, don't mistake your lack of imagination and lack of exposure to blockchain with the tech being "delusional"

>le immaculate conception
effective distribution is exactly the same for Bitcoin as it is for Ethereum

its always vagueties and culty drivel from the Bitcoin camp, always, without fail, every single time, there is no tangible argument, EVER.

[Anonymous No.55959713]

DAILY REMINDER - BITCOIN IS ENGINEERED BY GLOWIES

>all of crypto is engineered to siphon your wealth away, they are engineered to transfer your money to a few insiders, preminers, scammers and venture capitals - they will cashout and dump on you
>FIATs like USD/EUR/GBP are backing your crypto coins, printed out of thin air, unlimited supply, permanently bleeding SHIT-CURRENCIES
>BTC is engineered to attract dumb money and manipulated by CFDs, CDOs, Futures and big banks
>BTC is engineered to collect your payment data, aggregate it and to be sold to the highest bidder
>BTC is not valuable, in fact it is net negative because you need electricity to maintain it, paid for with FIAT
>DON'T BUY THIS SCAM
>DERIVATIVES like futures and options manipulate the crypto price, they are just USD-only trading on fake paper-BTC, they dilute the supply canceling the scarcity effect, kill the price discovery, and help market manipulators to keep the price down with naked short selling
>when you keep your money inside an EXCHANGE you are getting SCAMMED and you are exposed to risk of CONFISCATION
>HARDWARE WALLETS have manufacturer backdoors, your crypto is NOT SAFE on those
>NEVER TRUST ANY PARTIES (exchanges, banks, custodial services, lending platforms, centralized shitcoin wraps like WBTC, scammers, pushers and shills)
>CBDC (central bank digital currencies) will be the only LEGAL option, they will lose value even faster, kill your privacy, restrict your ability to freely spend your money, BITCOIN is THE TRANSITION TO THIS, will normalize it, so you get accustomed to pay with a globally trackable device (your smartphone/PC)
>BTC is not a get-rich-quick scheme, it's a ponzi scheme
YOU ONLY HAVE ONE TASK, BUY GOLD AND SILVER AND KEEP CASH READY
DON'T FUCK IT UP ANON

[Anonymous No.55959716]

>>55959657
He's right.

Ethereum isn't money. Vitalik and his buddies poof'd 72m out of thin air and then sold it to the public, keeping millions of eth to themselves, just because. They have massive economic and social control of the project. They championed "code is law" and then rolled back the entire chain because people lost money in the DAO collapse. The chain is a bloated mess and now we're moving to PoS so it'll only become more centralized as whales accumulate coins with no work.

But it's programmable! Honestly, cool. This is why I bought eth, more than you'll ever see in a lifetime. I was promised a magical world of web 3.0 dapps and the decentralized internet. Guess what I got?

8 years, 8 fucking years, and not a single useful app runs on Ethereum. The entirely of the Ethereum ecosystem is used to launch sonic themed shitcoins and monkey jpgs.

I want my money back.

[Anonymous No.55959738]

>>55959709
>sc wallets, nfts, tokenization, defi, socials, funding, privacy, payments, ens, scaling, etc. - there is so much latent (and realized) potential enabled by programmability, don't mistake your lack of imagination and lack of exposure to blockchain with the tech being "delusional"

meme buzzword, meme buzzword, meme buzzword

Give me the name of a project. One project. With a an actual user base. Providing actual value.

[Anonymous No.55960084]

>>55959716
>eth isn't money
its infinitely better money than bitcoin
better monetary policy
better scale
actual demand and use, bitcoin has zero demand outside speculation - the only way to use bitcoin is to tokenize it on eth, just tragic

>>55959738
none of these can be done on Bitcoin:
>safe
>argent
>zksync
>arbitrum
>optimism
>base
>scroll
>ens
>uniswap
>dai
>aave
>opensea
>farcaster
>tornado cash
>wbtc (top kek)
most of the potential is in things being built and new infrastructure enabling scale, no shit we can't pull users when the tps has been 10-15 (or 7 in the case of Bitcoin) so far, but Ethereum being programmable and intellectually honest is why we actually have a chance to see massive scale crypto
if you don't believe in crypto that's a separate argument, but if you do, Bitcoin is blatant steaming vaporware dogshit relative to Ethereum

[Anonymous No.55960363]

>>55958045
BTC will do a max of 4-5x i the mext bullrun
i will throw a literall 1-2k into a rugpull and pull out when it goes to 15x
Crypto is a scam in the end, i don't care about utility or other shit, it something can pump 100x just to dump 99% week later then i will just sit down and huntfor those tokens

>>55958090
also this, ETH is the next king and BTC will die by 2030 if it won't get any actual updates

[Anonymous No.55960371]

>>55958045
Don't put all your eggs in one basket, Fag. I diversified my portfolio by holding BTC, KREST, RIO, and MATIC

[Anonymous No.55960630]

>>55958244
Ah yes the Great Depression (1929) a well known event that happened between 1870-1900.

[Anonymous No.55961459]

>>55958045
What game is that

[Sean No.55961485]

>>55961459
Silent Hill I think but I don't know which one.

[Anonymous No.55961518]

>>55958045
Only problem I have is who is Satoshi? That could be a massive problem if it turns out to be a "bad guy".

[Anonymous No.55961547]

>>55958807
anyone building "on" eth and not "around" btc is a complete moron, the type of people who think something new is good because it's new (the new language and frameworks giga retards)
check phoenix app for btc instant payments with minimal trust

[Anonymous No.55961549]

>>55961459
>>55961485
3

[Anonymous No.55961570]

>>55958045
Monero is already replacing Bitcoin

[Anonymous No.55961842]

>>55961485
>>55961549
Thanks fellas, it looked like Silent Hill but I never played 3 and I don't remember this woman. I need to fire up Silent Hill 2 one of these days, as I remember totalbiscuit said it's one of his favorite all time games.

[Anonymous No.55961951]

>>55959302
Value proposition of crypto is Trustless Money, not 'digital money', 'programmable money' is the dumbest fucking shit as trade happens in reality and therefore can not be automated on-chain

[Anonymous No.55961977]

>>55958088
>I am an idiot who doesn't know about coinjoin
every single time
>muh moNEGRO

[Anonymous No.55961990]

>>55959663
>I am an idiot who doesn't know about lightning

[Anonymous No.55961995]

>>55961570
>moNEGRO here
>*gets banned on exchanges*
whoops, should had play the long-game instead

[Anonymous No.55962045]

>>55959713
precious metals will go to zero when technology makes it common, you're retarded

[Anonymous No.55962088]

>>55959621
>Bitcoin can be used to hedge inflation but its volatility makes this dubious.
BTC has been one of very very few assets that's risen in real terms in the last 14 years, housing and gold have fallen factored for money stock, and the stock market has been flat

[Anonymous No.55962121]

>>55958090
lol

[Anonymous No.55962239]

>>55960371
And you didn't add GLW to the list? What a miss! Take a look at MEXC, the p2e token is going green.

[Anonymous No.55962728]

>>55961977
lmao whatever jeet. How'd the tornado devs end up you stupid NIGGER.

[Anonymous No.55963046]

>>55958045
Block size

[Anonymous No.55963090]

>>55960371
Maybe rio and matic, add them up with mmw and ride and I think I have a perfect make it stack

[Anonymous No.55963102]

>>55962728
>lmao whatever jeet. How'd the tornado devs end up you stupid NIGGER.
why should I care about some devs?
tech is tech
get rekt fag
also using your own retarded argument: how'd Monero leader end up? (he's in jail)

[Anonymous No.55963106]

>>55962239
Nobody uses mexc anymore
Shitiest exchange ever

[Anonymous No.55963280]

>>55961951
It sounds to me like you didn't even read my whole post.

[Anonymous No.55963321]

>>55963102
>tech is tech
[read in a thick jeet accent]

[Anonymous No.55963326]

>>55958045
I simply want maximum returns with minimal investment and Bitcoin can't give me that, is that reason enough?

>>55963090
I'll take Rio because of how hyped up the RWA narrative is and Ride for it's impressive product

[Anonymous No.55963564]

>>55963280
People who speak before they think

[Anonymous No.55963585]

>>55958045
Why would I want to convince a bitcoin maximalist?
They're retarded and simply the worst set of people to argue with

[Anonymous No.55963597]

>>55958088
monero brainlets fail to realize that the obfuscation of the ledger is an inherent flaw, just like fiat, nobody can never verify proof of reserves.

[Anonymous No.55963619]

>>55963326
>Ride for it's impressive product
I simply like that they're constantly putting out new features to push it to adoption

[Anonymous No.55963712]

It'll go MAXIMUM $200k if there's another bullrun. All of these predictions about $1m+ don't even take into account how massive of a market cap would be required to achieve such a price. Once circulating supply hits 21m, the required market cap to hit $1mil price would be roughly $21 trillion. The global market cap of gold itself is little under $13 trillion.

When you run the numbers above, $1mil bitcoin is logistically impossible right now. We won't be seeing $1mil bitcoin in our lifetimes unless we get global mega hyperinflation sometime in the future, most especially considering the cyclical nature of crypto.

[Anonymous No.55963782]

>>55963585
Because they're simply superior to brainlets like you

[Anonymous No.55963798]

>>55963619
VR is a hot topic in tech at the moment, apple is about to hype things up with the launch of it's vision pro headset, so yeah let them ride on that wave