/biz/ - Business & Finance

[Anonymous No.55942086]

ETH has >50% OFAC compliant blocks again.

Your FEDcoin shitcoin is controlled by the literal US government.

With the Tornado arrests, this shit is going to 100. It's fucking over.

So much for proof of stake lol.

[Anonymous No.55942123]

Anon, pretend I'm a retard that made millions by buying all the tokens that have the best memes.
Now explain what you are going on about.

[Anonymous No.55942141]

>>55942086
OH-FUCK

[Anonymous No.55942163]

>>55942086
Every day I'm more glad I went back to BTC.
It's scary how it only took two years for ETH to go full retard.

[Anonymous No.55942185]

>>55942086
BTC maxis are right about ETH, it's retarded to lump it with a PoW coin.

[Anonymous No.55942228]

>>55942086
I don't like tornado
fuck em

[Anonymous No.55942411]

>>55942086
If Bitcoin had a service like Tornado it would be sanctioned by the OFAC and big mining pools and publicly traded US mining companies would comply.
Bitcoin PoW is censorship resistant the exact same way Ethereum PoS is; block builders decide what transactions they include in the blocks they publish.
At 50% OFAC compliance you have to wait ~15-30 seconds more to have your non-compliant tx go through, not great but not fully censoring because every validator still builds on top of these blocks.
Ethereum is building PBS to fix this.

[Anonymous No.55942446]

>>55942411
You don't need a smart contract on a centralized PoS protocol to do coinjoins. And the test of decentralization is the effects of sanctions. If a mining pool gets sanctioned it resets and new ones form in better jurisdictions. ETH companies offering staking shitcoins have names and addresses and CEOs, they can't do shit.

[Anonymous No.55942598]

>>55942446
fuck tornado tho, the coins touched by tornado should be trackable and made worthless, like counterfeit money

[Anonymous No.55942632]

>>55942598
Why is that? Do you feel the same about BTC that go through CoinJoin?

[Anonymous No.55942660]

>>55942086
The absolute statue of Eth and proof of stake

[Anonymous No.55942684]

>>55942660
I'm interested to know why you think this a PoS problem? It's an Ethereum problem but how does it have anything to do with PoS? Why couldn't this same OFAC censoring happen on PoW Ethereum?

[Anonymous No.55942732]

>>55942684
Because if you decide to censor some transactions you give up on some fees, and it's easier to give up on fees on POS Vs pow because with pow you use real ressources so every profit counts to win the competition, with POS you can more easily give up on profits because you don't have expenses like with pow, that's also what makes pos unsafe from political power that can socially manipulate actors to control the coins continuously

[Anonymous No.55942894]

>>55942598
>financial privacy is...LE BAD!!
this poster got the updated bivalent booster

[Anonymous No.55942918]

>>55942732
To add to this the real reason ETH is fu-cked is because they made 3-2 ETH a require-ment for staking to art-ificially create demand to p-ump the price, so po-ors have to buy sta-king tok-ens instead which are managed by centrali-zed entities that have names and addresses of people and busin-esses that can be sanctioned. The only thing in a PoW prot-ocol that matters is hash rate. You can point your hash rate at any pool and you don't have to hold some staking sh-itcoin. Pools have incentive to protect privacy of miners to have larg-er hash ra-te and will seek jurisd-ictions that aren't subj-ect to OFAC and the mi-ners don't have to be in this non-OFAC zone. It's fucking over for PoS. It thinks this is spam lol.

[Anonymous No.55943137]

>>55942732
Even if you mined empty blocks on Bitcoin you'd most likely be profitable because over 90% (currently 97-98%) of miner rewards are from the block reward. Censoring some transactions and picking others that pay 10k sats smaller fee wouldn't make a dent in miner profits.
>political power that can socially manipulate actors to control the coins continuously
What a word salad. Political powers aren't "socially manipulating" "actors" to control any ETH though.
>>55942918
Staking to-kens are managed by smart contracts. Just like how you can point your hashrate to another mining pool, you can swap from Lido's stETH to rocket pool's rETH or whatever. Or you could just run your own node. If you can afford to mine with ASIC(s), you probably can afford your own 32 ETH validator node. PoW, PoS, It's all just proof of capital in the end.

[Anonymous No.55943145]

spam filter test: token tokens

[Anonymous No.55943207]

>>55942632
don't know enough about this one
>>55942894
since you are mixing your virtual money with cheaters and outright thieves, you should be treated as such, privacy goes both ways with tornado

[Anonymous No.55943214]

>>55943137
The more time goes the less what you're saying is true, block reward is going to zero and fees will be the only way to secure bitcoin, if it keeps growing as it is the fees will be massive. So no. And no it's not word salad, ignoring basic things doesn't make them go away. Entities that have power, army, tools of propaganda, or whatever, can just use the power they have to control coins, which is easier than using real energy because you can't make up that energy if you don't have it, it's just harder hence more secure and that's without mentioning that the equipment (physical too) can be made useless by a simple fork, the ability to control of a powerful entity isn't going away if a POS chain is forking.

[Anonymous No.55943231]

>>55943207
Ok, cia man

[Anonymous No.55943315]

>>55943137
The DoJ says you have to freeze the stETH from moving because somebody laundered money and it needs to be frozen. You either don't comply, get arrested and held for years without charges, and the shitcoin goes to zero fucking over consensus. Or you comply, and a huge fucking percent of the staking is under feds control meaning the consensus is at risk and centralized so ETH goes down and people unstake en masse and it collapses. This fuckup was created as pure greed from early ETH foundation members to create an exit ramp of artificial demand.

"Proof of capital" is a common cope from PoS advocates to create false equivalency with PoW but the reality comes down to the nothing at stake problem. PoS did not solve this because as an earlier reply proved there is ZERO cost for not including fees as no energy is used to mine the block at a difficulty level like PoW. Add in the fact that the early insiders who controlled 60% of all supply at the time of the 2.0 transition never mined a single block and it becomes even more laughable.

[Anonymous No.55943379]

>>55942185
BTC maxis are retarded but correct about Ethereum, In the past 2-3 years especially Ethereum pivoted from being a revolutionary idea that might benefit humanity into a ponzi tool designed to make the whales more money while they destroy the space around them with their self-centered narratives and philosophy

Ugly sight to watch and the sad thing is that there's not enough money in the altcoins space that could brute force that hegemony into irrelevancy. Alts had a promising future but at the moment i'm almost entirely in BTC until the Ethereum empire collapse, If ever.

[Anonymous No.55943525]

>>55943214
>halvings
It's true that the ratio between fees and block reward will rise, but it does not assume fees itself will go up. My view is that fees will stay around the same as they have for years (no big reasons to go up 100x, maybe some short spikes like with inscriptions, but nothing sustainable enough to balance out halvings) and while block reward goes down, many miners leave and this leads to reduced security of the chain, and eventually a reorg attack.
>control coins
Okay so how do entities (governments) with power, armies, propaganda and whatever have the ability to "control coins" in Ethereum?
>energy
Well they have the armies so they surely can just occupy all the power plants and mining facilities.
>fork
Okay so this one is a must read: https://vitalik.ca/general/2020/11/06/pos2020.html
>>55943315
>ETH goes down and people unstake en masse and it collapses
No biggie, Lido LSD stakers would all just rope and the chain would continue normally. Probably someone would launch a no-lido-eth fork and see it die like ethw.
>nothing at stake problem
This is not the nothing at stake problem. Get your terms right.
>not including txs
PoS has lower rewards but lower operating costs balance this out. Bitcoin has higher operation costs and higher inflation balances this out (ASIC manufacturers and electricity companies give their thanks). As I said, 97-98% of Bitcoin mining profits are from the block reward and Ethereum burns 99% of fees. Block builders can censor on either chain while not suffering massive losses. It's just not as profitable and no one really wants to miss out on the fees just to cause a single empty block worth of annoyance. It only gets problematic if a major portion of miners/validators start doing this, rendering the chain unusable. But this is not happening because both of them are decentralized.
>>55943379
PoS was planned since the very beginning of Ethereum. Or are you referring to some other pivot? It's still the "world computer".

[Anonymous No.55943635]

>>55943525
>Okay so how do entities (governments) with power, armies, propaganda and whatever have the ability to "control coins" in Ethereum
By demanding them from centralized entities, and since consensus is determined by coin ownership instead of work they can then impact consensus at zero cost unless they fork.
>No biggie, Lido LSD stakers would all just rope and the chain would continue normally. Probably someone would launch a no-lido-eth fork and see it die like ethw.
Yes biggie, ETH would tank hard and the whole fucking ecosystem would be shaken
>It only gets problematic if a major portion of miners/validators start doing this, rendering the chain unusable.
which will happen more and more as they stay on the right side of US feds
>PoS was planned since the very beginning of Ethereum
Many of the problems with it weren't "solved" until years after release and the motivation was obvious due to the corrupt premine entitling early insiders to money from doing nothing forever if others built it up for them.

[Anonymous No.55943982]

>>55943635
>By demanding them from centralized entities
If a government seized exchange ETH balances and used those to attack, they'd just get slashed or UASF'd. Simple as. This is very unlikely to ever happen though, but Ethereum would survive. Governments could also seize ASIC mining facilities, ASIC miner manufacturers, and power plants. Attacking Bitcoin becomes easier every halving.
>Yes biggie
I was mostly making fun about the extremeness of the scenario. Lido is a DAO and bunch of smart contracts. There isn't just one guy who can take all the ETH and fly to Mexico. A bigger possibility is massive armageddon-tier code vulnerability. Yeah Ethereum would take a massive hit and talks of forking would start circling. But again this is very unlikely of happening and is all just speculation. If you base your opinion about Ethereum on this, you're in for a long wait. According to maxis PoS was supposed to die years ago and here we are. It will keep proving itself, it's still young.
>Many of the problems with it weren't "solved" until years after release
When the beacon chain launched and people could start staking it was made very clear that unstaking could be years away. It wasn't possible to stake without knowing this, going through the staking portal you saw like 5 reminders about the risks and you couldn't continue without reading them. Were there any other unsolved problems that took years to release?
>stay on the right side of US feds
Ethereum staking is massively decentralized. US feds aren't enough to destroy Ethereum.
>premine entitling early insiders to money
Most premine ETH was sold in 2017 peak and earlier. ETH has distributed pretty well considering only 50% was through mining. Whales who wanted to exit have had plenty of liquidity over the years.

[Anonymous No.55944054]

so what? nobody uses ethereum for decentralization. it's never been a decentralized blockchain.

if you care about decentralization as a core principle your only option in this market is bitcoin and that's the only option you've ever had.
but we're here getting rich because we care about storing wealth in bitcoin not making it there.

[Anonymous No.55944057]

>>55942086
and you are just figuring this out now? lol retard. What are your thoughts on mugshot.club?

[Anonymous No.55944141]

STACKS IS THE SUN

[Anonymous No.55945020]

>>55943207
Your criminal money mixing cherry got popped the first time you used cash retard, but I suppose you think cash should be banned too.

[Anonymous No.55945071]

This is such a non-issue. It doesn't stop "non-compliant" transactions from being included in the blockchain. Ethereum is free and decentralized like it has always been.

[Anonymous No.55945096]

can someone explain in simple terms how staking some coins "secures the network"?

[Anonymous No.55945350]

>>55945096
it doesn't. what secures the network is stripping away fungibility and using human lead consensus to "slash" bad actors.
proof of stake is really proof of human governance, while proof of work is proof of cryptography.

[Anonymous No.55945507]

Haha commies seething BSV wins

[Anonymous No.55945710]

>>55945096
I'll use Ethereum PoS as an example. You need to stake 32 ETH to be able to run a validator node. This validator node takes part in the consensus, it validates blocks and creates new ones. The stake is used as collateral to incentivize you to not act maliciously and attack the network. If you try attacking you lose some or all of your stake (=slashing) and the right to validate the chain. The term "staking" is misused a lot and causes confusion.

[Anonymous No.55945865]

>>55942163
It's a nothingburger. Even with 80% ofac compliant blocks you can still send noncompliant transactions. Btc maxi retards think it's a gotcha

[Anonymous No.55945908]

>>55943207
Nigger, all the bills you are carrying in your wallet right this moment have traces of cocaine in them.

[Anonymous No.55946074]

>>55942185
>>55942163
>>55942086
Reminder that MEV is coming to bitcoin thanks to ordinals + BRC-20 and that MEV is way worse on POW chains than POS.

[Anonymous No.55946158]

>>55946074
how can mev be worse on a more decentralized, more fungible, and more egalitarian chain?

proof of stake was a nice try, but it just doesn't work.

[Anonymous No.55946272]

>>55943525
>incel manifesto
*yikes*

[Anonymous No.55946298]

>>55942086
they were upset crypto was wasting electricity. even with this push for solar power.

[Anonymous No.55946312]

>>55946158
There are ways in which centralization due to MEV can be abstracted in ETH that can't in BTC due to the incentive structure of mining vs staking since staking networks have more granular control over block production process that isn't present in BTC. A bitcoin miner that engineers perfect MEV optimization will have a 30% advantage over other miners competing in the same space. Revenue that the miner could use to further consolidate the hashrate in their favor. Misbehaviour in the ETH space can at least be punished via slashing.

[Anonymous No.55946364]

>>55943214
I'm not 100 percent sure btc is more secure than eth at this point

[Anonymous No.55946416]

>>55946074
>MEV cuz BRC-20
>literally hell on earth is coming
nobody gives a shit
BRC is just garbage non-sense and going to zero like all shitcoins
shitcoins on Bitcoin are still shitcoins
shitcoins on LN are still shitcoins
shitcoins on driverchain are still shitcoins
BTC is the only thing that matters

[Anonymous No.55946501]

>>55946074
this
>>55942086
>>55942163
MEV has nothing to do with PoS or bitcoin/eth. Bitcoin will have MEV when it gets defi, and it will start to have complient blocks.

Eth will probably have solutions much faster than BTC too, like decentralized relays and separation of block building.

[Anonymous No.55946509]

>>55946416
>not understanding that MEV on BRC 20 affects the underlying bitcoin decentralization.

[Anonymous No.55946666]

>>55942732
PoS is fine. Its basically an excel sheet. PoW was more invested because you had to show your investment in the cause. But at the end of the day it's just smart money finally getting smart. Its goal is to cap the market price of a dollar so people can get 20 dollars and hour and have their money not deflatiate every year. Bitcoin is smart money so people can put food on the table. That was its original goal. thats why i support it.

[Anonymous No.55946753]

>>55946666
>PoW was more invested because you had to show your investment in the cause
The work in PoW has nothing to do with "showing your investment" its just the algo that all nodes use to make sure they all arrive at the same consensus about what is the real chain. PoS deos the same thing but done another way that doesn't need that work.

[Anonymous No.55946944]

>>55946509
MEV on BRC-20 is irrelevant cause BRC-20 and jpegs on BTC are going to zero
it's just a very stupid idea, which is gonna die quickly

[Anonymous No.55948609]

>>55946501
Ethereum is seeing massive group. Guess the number of ETH staked so far. They are fucking massive. See the rise in LSD. More protocols stepping in always. Lybrafinance, PendleFi, SpoolFi, Y2kfinance and more are working on more yields.

[Anonymous No.55949457]

>>55942086
Its a bad development but you are retarded
Ethereum is not controlled by the usa at all
This just means you need to wait on average two instead of one block until your transaction goes throught

[Anonymous No.55950174]

The problem with Tornado cash is that they mixed USDT. If they had stuck with mixing ETH or mixing TORN and using the uniswap pool to swap between USDT and TORN, like how 0xTIP mixes 0xMonero tokens only, then they wouldn't have been a target. You become a target when you facilitate money laundering of fiat currencies. Mixers that mix stablecoins aren't going to make it.

[Anonymous No.55950549]

>>55950174
>facilitate money laundering of fiat currencies
A crime which should be meticulously proven in a court of law the United States has actual jurisdiction over.

[Anonymous No.55952148]

>>55943207
>you are mixing your virtual money with cheaters and outright thieves, you should be treated as such, privacy goes both ways with tornado
There's actually a protocol being developed (basically finished, yes it is open source on github), that fixes this problem with tornado cash. This newer protocol, which I can't name because faggot jannies will ban me for a week again for "advertising" allows you to prove your transaction path is NOT with the bad guys while still using the same protocol as them.

[Anonymous No.55952161]

>>55950174
Nah they got nailed because of money laundering, period. Not because of USDT. They got nailed because FED thinks they can force Ethereum to blacklist in their block validation and they can to an extent. Monero can't get hit like Tornado because Monero is literally a bunch of guys running code on processors, it's functionally different than validating.

[Anonymous No.55952167]

>>55952161
>it's functionally different than validating
Well not quite in this context, but Ethereum has a lot of centralized staking and Monero doesn't(?)

[Anonymous No.55952300]

>>55952161
they can sanction all monero the same way they sanctioned all tornado cash deposits if they wanted. legally they're identical.

the difference is monero is useful to the government because it doesn't have strong enough privacy guarantees, but tornado did.

[Anonymous No.55952312]

>>55952300

>the difference is monero is useful to the government because it doesn't have strong enough privacy guarantees, but tornado did.

[Anonymous No.55952359]

>>55952300
Umm anon.
Monero is known to be very strong for privacy.

As for Tornado, pools that are privacy.

[Anonymous No.55952708]

>>55942228
Use Railgun then

[Anonymous No.55952924]

>>55952359
>Monero is known to be very strong for privacy.
no, it isn't, but midwits like you falling for marketing by bagholders is the intended effect after all.

[Anonymous No.55954087]

>>55942123
He thinks ETH and BTC weren't government ops and now are becoming government ops instead of the obvious that they were always government ops.

[Anonymous No.55954748]

>>55952300
They might as well sanction all US cash. The US is a degenerate failing state in decline with an activist judiciary that has abandoned due process.

[Anonymous No.55954782]

>>55954748
the point is monero is suspiciously left alone while the government clamps down quickly on alternative privacy networks, overtly like tornado, or covertly like aztec.

why kill their golden goose (monero) when they can just remove the competition that actually works and keep the thing they can compromise for the cost of a single DEA employee a year.

[Anonymous No.55954929]

>>55954782
>pedero

[Anonymous No.55955046]

>>55942732
holy blockchain illiterate

[Anonymous No.55955367]

>>55946944
Stupid take, as long as DEFI exists on bitcoin the attack vector is still present, and that shit is pandora's box. Your speculation about it all going to 'zero' is irrelevant

[Anonymous No.55955449]

>>55954782
Buying xmr is banned on some countries exchanges

[Anonymous No.55956072]

>>55954782
In order to bring a case against Monero they need to show how they deanonymize a person, which they can't. Because the most sophisticated way they could do this would be an illegal wiretap on the internet backbone. Whereas with a smart contract it's much easier to trace. Also Monero authors are smarter to remain private. Also the Tornado case is less about Tornado itself and more about future precedent to make demands of centralized entities that touch ETH.

[Anonymous No.55956086]

>>55942086
Proof of Shitcoin

[Anonymous No.55956197]

>>55942411
/thread

[Anonymous No.55956440]

>>55955046
Tech illiterate

[Anonymous No.55958401]

>>55956072
you don't need to bring a case against anyone or anything to sanction it like they did tornado or pressure the individuals behind it like they did aztec.

monero is clearly enshrined by DEA.

[Anonymous No.55960354]

PoS = Piece of Shit
Simple as

[Anonymous No.55960699]

>>55942086
>proof of stake
The BTC maxis tried to warn you, kek.

[Anonymous No.55960799]

>>55942086
I don't even bother responding seriously to these threads anymore, there's no actual discussion happening in these threads.
They are however a peek into /biz/'s past, back when most threads were still Bitcoiners shitting on Ethereum.

Now, many years later, the ETH ratio continues to be in a macro uptrend against BTC.
BTC Maxi's love pointing to the 2017 top on the ratio and scream "lower high!!" while they conveniently ignore how the ratio has not crashed at all during this whole bear market. On top of that BTC Dominance has failed to perform this bear-cycle.

It is clear 99% of the market is absolute bullshit, but thinking ETH is among that shit signals complete retardation of the brain.
The majority of the people talking publicly about crypto who used to only talk about BTC have now added ETH to their routines, maxi's are a dying breed and Ethereum is here to stay.
It has proven itself this last cycle, as it is up +262% against BTC over the last FOUR YEARS.

Now watch some BTC maxi reply to this post with a meme picture of Vitalik in addition to some stupid (untrue) BTC maxi one-liner talking point. Watch how they seethe and cope, while ETH holders continue to outperform BTC in the long run.

The world is not in agreement with the BTC maxi's. Digital money is useless without a robust digital financial ecosystem, which Bitcoin cannot provide.
The only way to use BTC is through custodial services or hacked on semi-decentralized DeFi solutions, like the ones that were shilled by their BTC Maxi influencers. Yes the services that scammed everyone because CUSTODY.

Ethereum is needed to ACTUALLY move towards a decentralized future, as it provides the coin AND the rails it moves on.

I'm not writing this for the BTC maxi's, but the onlookers lurking. You KNOW which coin has the biggest growth potential, and it's not Bitcoin. Gold market cap as goal, 12 trillion? That's peanuts.

Ethereum has the potential to be the internet of money. Hundreds of trillions

[Anonymous No.55961478]

>>55960799
Do you think eth and it's network effect is enough to keep away other PoS competitors for now I like it because it's a better model than btc for economical sustainability and asic mining farms. But do you foresee eth whales dropping it and deploying capital on another chain. Because capital needed to attack eth and its network is what makes it what it is versus technical abilities

[Anonymous No.55961487]

>>55960799
haha eth can’t scale as a level 1 and it is a security
You are a retard and that’s a lot of text for coping

[Anonymous No.55961609]

>>55960799
>ETH ratio continues to be in a macro uptrend against BTC
nice bait but this is an easily verifiable lie so I stopped reading here. anyone with eyes can see eth/btc ratio goes down only

[Anonymous No.55962033]

>>55960799
bitcoin already won the money game, it's unique, peerless
ethereum is playing a liquidity game, fast moving, minimal moats, reliant on never ending technology improvements

eth isn't money, it's just an incentive to validate the network, there's a reason it peaked against bitcoin in 2017, 2 years after launch, 6 years ago.

[Anonymous No.55962052]

>>55961609
midwit bagholdes that still don't get that every alt has a lifetime measured in months from launch. eth was massively outperformed by newer alts the last cycle, and the same will be true every cycle since.

eth only survives when times are good, and crypto is stable. it can't beat bitcoin because a failure in bitcoin kills ethereum's entire market.

[Anonymous No.55963482]

>>55961487
It doesn't have to scale its got a whole eco system that relies on eth for security, its more expensive now to attack eth than btc

[Anonymous No.55963492]

>>55960799
this except Eth is also useless trash

[Anonymous No.55963534]

>>55960799
Thank you Bankless!

[Anonymous No.55963772]

>>55945020
you started fucking your butt with cash, not me
using cash was not even part of a debate here, like we have a choice right now
>>55945908
so fucking what, another whataboutistic comment of someone I presume mixed their crypto with criminals
this debate is not about cash but wheter mixing your money with dirty money makes your money dirty as well
>>55952148
wouldn't transactions coming out of such protocol be smeared by the same protocol the same way they are after going through tornado?

[Anonymous No.55963990]

>>55963772
>so fucking what
You mixed your money with criminals.

[Anonymous No.55964493]

>>55963772
that's not how Tornado cash works. When you deposit to the contract, it generates a nullifier key that based off of a hash of how much was deposited at that specific block txn and that txn only, and so anyone with that nullifier key can use it to withdraw whatever amount the key corresponds to. It doesn't track anything related to public keys or sources of tokens at all.

They go after people because the SEC declared that it was money laundering and that's because it literally is. But if someone uses rugged or criminal ETH to buy a bunch of shitcoins and then a whale dumps on them, technically the liquidity taken from the contract is also "mixing money with criminals". Money laundering is mostly a crime for tax reasons and the crime itself is obscuring the source of monetary transactions. You can commit money laundering with non-dirty money as well. If you use legit gains you made to buy a fuckton of computer parts and amazon gift cards sent to a P.O. box under a fake name, that's also a crime.

[Anonymous No.55964520]

>people are choosing to participate in kyc'd exchanges and apps REEEEEEEEEEEEE

Seethe more

[Anonymous No.55964606]

Saw this coming when ETH split from ETC. Can't trust people advsertise an immutable ledger while selling you something that only exists to reverse a transaction

[Anonymous No.55964670]

>>55942086
>PoS
>Blackrock buys the majority of the stake
>mooncoin.png
>Blackrock, Fed, WEF demand OFAC compliance.
So what's it going to be mETHheads? Suck off the globohomo or watch your moonbags go back triple digits?