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/biz/ - Business & Finance


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557855 No.557855 [Reply] [Original]

Anyone buying bitcoin now in the mid-300's? I am sitting on a bit of cash right now and the stock market in general seems pretty inflated right now. I haven't traded bitcoins in over a year, so I haven't been following the crypto game very closely. Should I diversify into other cryptos or are things like PND and LTC not worth the risk?

>> No.557857

The only ones who make money on Bitcoin are the ones who trade volatility. Its overall performance is awful.

>> No.557861
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557861

>>557855
>stock market inflated
>buys bitcoin

>> No.557866

>>557857
Yeah, I'm looking at it as a pretty short-term investment. When I traded bitcoin in the past, I rarely held it for more than a couple weeks. Just trying to gauge if people are viewing the current price as cheap.

>>557861
Looking for somewhere to park some cash until the market takes another dip. I'm feeling like bitcoin might have some better short-term prospects than the market in general. For perspective, I have $125k in the stock market and I'm only thinking about buying maybe 10-15 bitcoins.

>> No.557868
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557868

>>557866
Have you watched the pump n' dump that is bitcoin. Holy crap you're dumb. It's been on a huge downward spiral and lost 20 percent of it's value in 8 days but you think it's going to perform better than the market?

>> No.557870

Its going to sink to low $200's in December before going up and sitting at $330. Don't invest right now

>> No.557872

>>557868
>lost 20 percent of it's value
ever heard of buying the dips? s&p 500 is up 10% since it dipped in mid-october, which makes me hesitant to pour cash into it. btc is obviously trending down in general, but historically, it tends to have a lot of bounces.

>> No.557873

>>557855
>2014
>willingly dumping money into a know NSA/FBI honeypot
Not even once.

>> No.557875
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557875

>>557872
You're a perfect bitcoin bag holder, just naive enough to believe in it.

>> No.557877

>>557875
Okay. If you had $4k sitting in cash today, what would you put it in, keeping in mind it is only about 3% of your total liquid portfolio?

>> No.557879

>>557877
Pretty much anything else besides Bitcoin. Hell, you could buy bags of dirt and I am sure they would hold value better.

>> No.557880
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557880

>>557877
>Implying I don't have 4k in cash
>Implying it's more than 1 percent of anything
How pleb are you? Just put the shit into the market, as long as interest rates are low no one is going to be doing any saving. The only people that are crying "OMG meerkat kresh" are gold bugs who are freaking out at the end of quantitative easing and need more people to offload their shiny shekels onto. There's no panic in the market and it still has room to grow.

>> No.557881

>>557870
This.
I poured in 25k when BTC was at 200 and immediately pulled out when it reached 1000. It's gonna hit 200 again and when it does I'll be ready.

>> No.557882

>>557855
>the stock market in general seems pretty inflated right now.
the stock market makes new highs in more years than it doesn't

>> No.557885

>>557880
there is no panic in the market right now, therefore there will be no panic in the market. okay. economic growth in europe is basically zero. economic growth in japan is negative. china has slowed way down. us recovery is still extremely slow. corporate profits are inflated by weak labor markets and artificially low interest rates. i guess there is no reason why the market shouldn't be up 80 percent in the last two years.

>> No.557888
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557888

>>557885
bitcoin went from 1200 dollars to less than 300 in less than a year and you think the market is in a worse position? You don't need investment advice, you need a shrink.

>> No.557893

>>557888
because nothing has ever gone down and come back up. i bought my house with proceeds from buying ford at <$3 a share in 2008.

honestly, i appreciate your contrary view. i realize cyptocurrencies are highly speculative investments, but speculating is exactly what i'm looking to do with this chunk of cash. most of my liquid assets are long the market now, so i'm looking for something with low market correlation to dump some cash into, probably short-term.

>> No.557899

>>557893
I like gambling too. Vegas is pretty cool because you get free drinks and vouchers for food after they ass ream you. When Bitcoin offers free booze I am in. It takes the sting off.

>> No.557901
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557901

>>557893
If you're going to throw away money by putting it into bitcoin have an exit target. Since it's hovering around 340 right now make sure you set it to above 300 so you don't lose more than you absolutely need to in order to learn that you're a moron. You might be extra retarded and decide to ride the dump lower so definitely set it above 280.

>> No.557903

I can't see why someone would speculate with Bitcoin. It is obviously never going to amount to anything beyond edgy 'look at me I am using Bitcoin' transactions. It has no future. If it did, the banks would copy the model and spoonfeed it to their customers.

If you have to speculate, invest in something you think will be worth more in the future.

Why speculate on something everyone knows is eventually going to zero. Do you really need volatility that bad? There are other ways to get more volatility, like options, or margin...

>> No.557904

>>557899
i'm not denying its gambling. i don't really have the time to get down to vegas, so i'll just have to settle with speculative investing.

>>557901
okay, thanks. i admire your confidence.

>> No.557905

Purchased a coin for 200 a while ago, might buy more, might sell some, but I believe in it's future potential. I don't buy the 1m rumor, but I see 10k happening in 3-5 years

Only time will tell

>> No.557907

>>557903
i've said multiple times, i'm looking at this short-term. my potential investment has nothing to do with the long-term viability of this particular cryptocurrency or cryptocurrencies in general. it has to do with if people are going to buy it up over the coming weeks to a point where it outperforms a general stock market ETF. looking at a historical chart, it obviously has bounces where it'll jump 10%+ after a dip. this is a major psychological component to these short-term fluctuations, so i'm looking from a purely short-term chart-analysis perspective. yes, this is speculative and gambling, but i enjoy doing that.

>> No.557908

>>557905
> 10,000
Lel

>> No.557909

>>557907
also, i'm definitely not committed to making this purchase at this point and i appreciate the contrary opinions. i'm hoping to hear a bit from people who trade on the volatility of bitcoin though. i did this a bit over a year ago and made a few quick profitable trades (and one bad trade), but i've been out of the bitcoin game for awhile now.

>> No.557910

>>557908
Bitcoin isn't going anywhere (unless something deliberately destroys it)
It's getting more and more accepted by big companies an it's becoming more and more known. 5 years from now things will be very different

>> No.557911

>>557907
I understand. I just think its a better idea to speculate with something you believe is on an overall upward trend.

You could speculate wildly with anything by buying options, or leveraging. Seems it would make a lot more sense to take a chance on something with an overall up-trend rather than down-trend.

Someone's going to be holding the bag with Bitcoin, why take that chance?

>> No.557912

>>557910
>5 years form now things will be very different
Agreed, 5 years from now Bitcoin will be worth next to nothing.

>> No.557913

>>557910
> 10,000
heehee

>> No.557915

>>557911
i don't know man. my most profitable speculative trades have been on stocks that have been beaten down and fought their way back, or at least had a dead cat bounce. those are the kinds of trades i look for. if i were to buy btc, i'd get out if it dropped by 15%, so wouldn't exactly be the "bag holder" unless something totally catastrophic happened (which is a risk, sure). i just don't want to "buy high" with anything since.

>> No.557926

>>557915
Yep, that's a legitimate strategy, point taken.

I just see a bounce in Bitcoin to be like a bounce in Beenie Babies...Not trying to argue, just trying to illustrate my point.

Either way, good luck.

>> No.557934

>>557912
That's a real possibility

>> No.557935

>>557926
yeah, thanks. i think i'm just going to keep an eye on the price and see if it dips below $300, at which point i'll pick some up.

>> No.557941

>>557935
look in to ripple. it has a lot more short and long term potential.

>> No.557942
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557942

...the ignorance of blockchain economies in this thread is too real. There's an entire culture behind trading (or what mostly determines its value, right now). follow the trend = follow the culture.

Almost none of you appear to understand that the culture of crypto is never going away and it's just going to keep growing with the rest of technology. What does this mean about the price of bitcoin, specifically? Who knows. Seems bearish, right now. But that could change, tomorrow. Who will care? No one as much as the day traders... They profit as long as the culture grows.

Do you know how much better $200 is for traders than $1 in 2011? When it got to $1, apparently barely any traders expected it because dollar parity was the realest they'd ever experienced in a blockchain economy.

so, lol. trading on the volatility of bitcoin and crypto are a bit tricky but not so difficult if you are comfortable using "the internet" as a place to store your "value". Blockchains are like the backbones of cultures. Sure, you can break your back, but holy shit. Have you ever been a part of a "culture"... You can see it coming. Trade futures.

There's an ecosystem of cryptocurrencies with hundreds, maybe thousands of "coin x,y, and z tribes/cartels/clubs/herds/whatev". The more or less free market of crypto is not just gambling on the exponential increase of technology... Bitcoin is volatile because the freemarket loves to fuck the shit out of bitcoin. That's why it's /gasp... volatile. People always want cryptocurrency, but they're still going to buy/sell when they decide to. So, the big argument is that "HEY PEOPLE ARE TRADING BITCOIN???"

Yes. A blockchain appeared out of nowhere and now there's a sizable world-wide economy built on it.

If you're not going to trade, to each his own story, but you'll regret not paying attention to the most important invention since the internet.

You'll be worse than that guy who just never learned to use google.

>> No.557944
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557944

>>557942
>you'll regret not paying attention to the most important invention since the internet
You guys are so cute.

>> No.557946
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557946

>>557942
>you right now
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y4SCAw264qM

>> No.557948

>>557944
>>557946
fruitful responses, guys. Go ahead and continue trading memes while we trade value.

>> No.557950
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557950

>>557948
>value

>> No.557952

>>557950
I can do "value" debates.
Your definition, first.

>> No.557954

>>557942

Nope.

People are rightfully weary of Bitcoin because it has no backing. Its too easy to lose and too hard to use.

If there is any merit to the idea of crypto currencies, the model will be copied by the banks who will continue to provide all financial services until the end of time. It's just too cheap, easy, and convenient to not use the banks.

I can't imagine the headache of trying to use Bitcoin for any sort of purchase. Why would I do that???

>> No.557956

>>557954
is this a joke? just checking before I go on...

I just simply. Are you serious.

>> No.557962

>>557956
No it's not. It is the opinion of 99.99% of the world. There is no incentive to use Bitcoin. It is laden with risk and has no advantage.

>> No.557985

>>557952
Somethings that enhance value:

>Protection from fraud
>Protection from theft
>Protection from loss (ie lost computer, password, whatever)
>Protection from bank default
>Protection from extreme volatility
>Consumer protection while making a purchase

This isn't to say that cash is a reasonable investment. Only productive assets are. Same as it has always been and always will be.

>> No.557987
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557987

I'm in BTC long. I dropped $3k on coins when it was $320ish back a few weeks ago. Felt like it was the bottom.

Although the possibility of it going lower and failing are real, I feel like the potential is very high. It has little to no competition, and it's use will be dramatically magnified if "trendsetters" (Celebrities, politicians, media) start using it. A good example of something like this is twitter, instagram or vine. No one fucking needs twitter. It's a platform for celebrities to promote themselves, yet a lot of people want to hear what they say, and a lot of people are influenced by them. Therefore, a lot of people use it even though no one cares what plebs tweet. People don't have to justify a need for bitcoin, they will use it if it's popular. Period.

Besides that, bitcoin has real potential outside the west, in places with not so lovey dovey banking and high amounts of corruption. That's a longer game though, and will be facilitated by an embrace by the west.

Getting people and biz to hold the coin is really key. Then the market goes up, and downward pressure from miners lets off in the halving in 2016. I'm going to closely watching media in 2015 for bitcoin. If it takes off, it will be from a very organic source.

That's just my opinion though. I like betting on innovation. An innovative product with almost no competition and huge market potential? Sign me up. I've missed too many trains in my lifetime, time to try something a bit risky.

>tfw you wish this graph was real

>> No.557993

>>557987

>A good example of something like this is twitter, instagram or vine.

Myspace, Friendster, iTunes Ping

It's never going to take off. It just wont. It's too risky and there is virtually no advantage to using it.

Ask yourself - a Bitcoin proponent - how many purchases have you made?

And how much more do you known about it than the average person. It's totally realistic to think that even the most tech savvy people would take no the risk of using this currency.

Ya, credit card companies scalp the economy for 1%. But you really get a lot of value for that 1% if you think about it.

>> No.558000
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558000

>>557993

>Myspace, Friendster, iTunes Ping

>It's never going to take off. It just wont. It's too risky and there is virtually no advantage to using it.

Yes ofc it can fail. I said that. Those things had competition though. You're not going to convince me otherwise by claiming that "you know" the future. Preposterous. The fact is, you don't know, and I don't either. You may have an opinion of the matter, but nothing here is certain. I don't often trust people that say "they know" for sure what's going to happen. It often shows a bad bias.

>a bitcoin proponent

Didn't say that. Just said I dropped bills on it for gains.

>need

I see it as virtual cash. Buying a hotdog or beers on a smartphone. Tipping a server. Buying food at corner store. A method of payment when someone doesn't take cards. Donating to charity. etc etc

Really though, I don't think people will use it because it's rational. If everyone acted rational, we'd all ask for Roth IRAs on our 18th birthday. People will use it if it becomes popular. You see, kids and young people like to differentiate themselves from their parents. They also like to fit in. I see this as one way of doing so. Then eventually the old farts catch on. It has to be driven by celebrities and influential media types. I think bitcoin needs to reach out to young entertainers if it wants to be successful. That's what I am betting on.

>> No.558001

>>557962
First of all, remember you're speaking about the digital age. Things change faster than they used to.

The primary incentive to use bitcoin is not necessarily bitcoin. It's the ability to access the blockchain and trade value on it, first. That's what I'm pointing out is more important.

Bitcoin could "crash" (for like the 6 or 7th time) tomorrow, whatever. But millions of people will understand the difference between Bitcoin and a blockchain whenever future generations reflect on it.

"No advantage" is just false for the blockchain and still questionable for bitcoin. Saying it's too easy to lose and too hard to use is reductive.

Bitcoin has first mover advantage on the largest blockchain based economy. There's an advantage in it for someone if there's money in it, at all..... but only because first it was on a blockchain culture that is still developing.

Why would you point out that banks might want to use the tech?

And your last question kills me. Heh. I dont know how this would fit into the story in your head, but I could "purchase" the amount of attention required for your next response, right now, if you gave me a wallet address. It's definitely in the "easy" category of things you can do online and easily demonstrated.

The bitcoin community is very aware of "user-friendliness issues" but comparisons are tricky. I can tell you that my experience is that it is getting more user friendly and is only beginning to gain momentum in this sense. But we'll see if its momentum is too early for its time, I guess.

Blockchain technology will grow to be on the whole just as useful as every payment system on the planet and continue to surpass each of them in many ways.

The only question is... will the particular cryptocurrency "bitcoin" be widely adopted?

idk. but until then there's more than a couple billion dollars in it and room to splash around.

Happy fishing!

>> No.558008
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558008

>>558000
>people will use it if it becomes popular.
http://www.google.com/trends/explore#q=bitcoin
>guess not lol

>> No.558011

>>557985
You listed things that enhance value, you haven't defined value. Whether those enhancements can apply to or counter the usefulness of bitcoin isn't very relevant to what really matters: what bitcoin actually does better than other currencies.

I'll save you the trouble and just give you my take on it and we'll see how it turns out.

Value is often whatever you feel like authoring into the story of your life. It's a resource for human nature and the story we tell ourselves about being "I". If information can be valuable to us and that valuable information can be secured on the blockchain... then of course it could easily be described as valuable to traders. And many others.

Really easy to see.

Especially, when people are gathering (and giving away) as much cryptocurrency value as they can trading on the markets, right now.

This is a new kind of "value". It crosses so many boundaries.

>> No.558012
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558012

>>558001
If you are looking for an address try pic related. I have more Bitcoin experience than most out there.

Blockchain is irrelevant, they all operate the same and it doesn't change the fact that there is no party to absorb risk

I said no advantage, I should have said no net advantage.

I point out banks will use the tech because they will continue to dominate all finance until the end of time and if this is what people want they will deliver.

It is easy to send and receive, but so are a million other methods of payment that don't come with the risks I listed above.

>> No.558013

check out what these silly guys have to say:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ClAuzjRZlw

>> No.558017
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558017

>>557861
>>557868
>>557875
>>557880
>>557888
>>557901
>>557946
>>557950
>>557954
>>558008

>if I keep posting witty pictures and insulting them, they'll feel bad and lose money!

samefaggin the shit outta this thread

Why is that I post in a thread saying bitcoin has high risk, my exit point, and propose a logical breakout strategy for the technology, only to get replies like this. Fuckin 12 year olds

itstimetostopposting.jpeg

>> No.558040

>>558012
Oh. Well, then you know, already...

We're probably just miscommunicating. I care more about cryptocurrencies and blockchain technologies than bitcoin.

But it seems your under the impression that there is no party to mitigate these risks for the blockchain:

>Protection from fraud
>Protection from theft
>Protection from loss (ie lost computer, password, whatever)
>Protection from bank default
>Protection from extreme volatility
>Consumer protection while making a purchase

Anyone can just DYOR.....keeping a private key safe secures every one of those risks, except "protection from extreme volatility". Again, you know this is all still in development. There are projects being created to protect bitcoin investors from "extreme volatility". Who knows what's going to happen... but to say that you think banks will continue to "dominate all finance until the end of time"... it's as if you think this isn't going to threaten any of the bank's territory, at all?

And uhh... So what if the banks are dominant over all of finance, including crypto?

The sun will explode one day while we're trying to party under it. And what?

The "net advantage" is that the crypto crowd gets to party all over the planet with unprecedented freedom. Don't you see potential in the "underbanked" or "oppressively banked" classes?

>> No.558067
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558067

>>558040
If there were any potential in the underbanked classes the banks would've already seen it.

>> No.558069

>>558040

>So what if the banks are dominant over all of finance, including crypto?

So Bitcoin is worthless, as are these other pointless coins - that's what. I don't care about blockchains or crypto currencies, the conversation was about speculating in Bitcoin and my point was that It's a bad idea.

>it's as if you think this isn't going to threaten any of the bank's territory, at all?

It won't, and you don't seem to realize I am ok with this. Currency is not supposed to be an investment. Its a means of exchange. The value the banks give for the fees they charge is fair as far as I am concerned.>>558040

>Don't you see potential in the "underbanked" or "oppressively banked" classes

Not even a little bit.

>> No.558655

>>557954
>If there is any merit to the idea of crypto currencies, the model will be copied by the banks who will continue to provide all financial services until the end of time. It's just too cheap, easy, and convenient to not use the banks.

this is so retarded it's not even funny. why would banks use a model where they don't ahve control and can't force inflation?

the whole point of bitcoin is that it's decentralized. it's secure intrinsically without having to trust any central authority....

>> No.558659

>>558655
>without having to trust any central authority

Instead you have to trust yourself to keep your finances secure and those you transact with to not defraud you.

Never going to happen.

>> No.558663

>>558659
how is this not the same as using cash/debit? if you go to a shady establishment your going to get defrauded anyways... but if you go to a reputable establishment and get defrauded you can leave bad reviews or complain to BBB or similar and just generally tarnish their reputation

I really don't see what you're talking about

>> No.558719

top lel, there are some assmad people here that didn't invest a few years ago.

Like it or not, BTC is here to stay. It literally doesn't matter what you guys think. Yes, I understand that the volatility is hilariously retarded, but if you think that basic logic prevents success/widespread adoption in this world you're brilliantly naive. New businesses are only going to keep accepting it and pushing BTC payments as the fee is 0% as opposed to 1.5-3.0% with CC processors, and it opens their customer base to anyone with a computer anywhere in the world, and you don't have to worry about chargeback scams or anything. Top VC's all over the world are pushing hundreds of millions into Bitcoin companies, and aren't going to stop.

The thing I don't understand is how some of you realize how stupid some of the logic is with this, how high the volatility is and you STILL don't trade. It's the easiest fucking money I've ever made in my life, a week ago I made $2000 over the course of a 50 minute lecture where there was some idiot giving a presentation about how Bitcoin is impossible to make money with lel.

>> No.559231

>>557987
>No one fucking needs twitter. It's a platform for celebrities to promote themselves, yet a lot of people want to hear what they say, and a lot of people are influenced by them. Therefore, a lot of people use it even though no one cares what plebs tweet. People don't have to justify a need for bitcoin, they will use it if it's popular. Period.

Fucking THIS. As a marketing profesional, this is what science, math and economy aspies don't get. If something becomes part of the popular culture it will explode and has changes to stay "forever". And you don't even need to compare it with the internet, something like twitter itself. Who the fuck thinks twitter is going anywhere? no one, it's here to stay. Once paying with bitcoins by swiping your cool smartphone becomes something cool to do, everyone will get on it. It's meant to happen. There will be a time that credit card swipping is seen as grandpa tier and if you aren't swipping your smartphone to pay, you are out the motherfucking loop. Kids grow up with smartphones these days. It's happening.

>> No.559237

>>558663

> how is this not the same as using cash/debit?

It's exactly the same, the person who you're replying to is brain damaged.

>> No.559244

>>558719
So how do you make money unless you are in an inside circle of whales? it's too chaotic and random to predict anything.

>> No.559255

>>557855
no

>> No.559265

>>559244
Just basic trading strategies, I'm really bad at giving advice but I mean it just took a lot of trial and error on my part. Also it helped being in high school until 2013 so I had all day to develop my skills (almost failed out but eh now at college so it worked out). Unless you're looking to long, which won't get you much revenue I'd say start programming trading bots, make a few on quantopian to start (it's with stocks but you get the hang of it). The API's for the Bitcoin bots aren't that hard to figure out, it'll be nice to put on your resume as a skill too.

>> No.559267

>>557855
Just wait after Black Friday for the price to drop.

>> No.559326

>>558017
Its the same fag from other threads about bitcoin. The post style is identical.

>obvious axe to grind

>> No.559442

>>559267

Honestly I figure smart money has already sold and will buy up again after black friday.

>> No.559462

>>559231
>Who the fuck thinks twitter is going anywhere? no one, it's here to stay.

You are a fool if you think Twitter will last decades. Twitter is will be gone once something better replaces it. I've seen it happen before and it will happen again.

>> No.559463

>>559462
Buddy
Twitter is the media killer

News are so desperate they show Twitter posts

What news is there besides local when you can get the latest updates straight from the horse's mouth now

You literally had Egyptians post pics and tweets about the civil war

>> No.559494

>>559463
Cairo?/

>> No.559501
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559501

>>559494

>> No.559587

>>559462
Lel it doesn't matter how shitty his example is, that doesn't detract from the point that Bitcoin is here to stay.

>> No.559591

>>557866
Lel
>>559501
posts 50/50 moot is mute
Russell the BrucE BitBonsa! SsAsh

>> No.559604

>>557855

Going to buy 10K worth of bitcoins.

Only buys Ripples (XRP) and Bitcoins.

>> No.559616

>The only ones who make money on Bitcoin are the ones who trade volatility. Its overall performance is awful.

That's why it's price has gone from <$1 to a few hundred dollars in the space of a few years?

Buy and hold is the safest bitcoin strategy, so long as you can hold it over ~12 months you have never been down on your money.

>> No.559617

>>559265
>i program shit to scam the market
Im not a nerd enough to learn how to program. How do I get money in the market without shitty bots.

>> No.559618

>>559462
You are clueless. Classic Bitcoin dennier.

>> No.560137

how do i buy Bitcoin?

>> No.560142

>>557855
Nope. BTC is going to 50/coin, their blackmarket value. There is still a very good chance to lose a fuckton of money, so no.

>> No.560151
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560151

>>560142
>Implying you can present us a formula to derive the black market value.
>Implying 50 is not just an arbitrary number.
Nobody knows where bitcoin is going. Could be 5, 50, 500, 5000 or 50.000 Dollar.

>> No.560156

>>560151
> 5,000 or 50,000
Not even once.

>> No.560167

>>560151
Invest mainly in Bitcoins.
Top Altcoins as diversification might be ok, but risky. Only invest in Altcoins that are consistently rated high in trading volume.

During the the last crypto pump 2013, Bitcoin was the first to rise and then Altcoins followed but rose more rapidly and higher than Bitcoin from a relative perspective. Maybe it will repeat the next time (if there is a next time ;)

I myself have bought into Dogecoin recently since it think it has good fundamentals such as distribution, number of users, etc.
https://bitinfocharts.com/
https://www.coingecko.com
I don't really know what to think about the new smart coins, Bit assets, etc. and there is not much user data out from these coins.

>> No.560244

>>557855
>>557866
well before you go lose your money. word on the street is the feds are dumping all the confiscated coin back onto the market, its expected to drive it down to like $150 or so. Then it'll jump back up after that is over.

>> No.560250

>>557942
this nailed it.
/thread

>> No.560264

>>557954

You mean wary. I'm assuming. People have grown pretty tired of BTC too.

>> No.560276

>>558011
value is a function of finity.

>> No.560345

>>559616
k tihs is one thing wrong about bitcoins

holding season is over folks. if you bought bitcoins when it was over a thousand.... well yea nothing more needs to be said.....