/biz/ - Business & Finance

[Anonymous No.52779091]

How was he unable to come up with a good economic system despite going about economics in a scientific way? He had extremely good criticisms and analyses of capitalism yet couldn't come up with anything better.

[Anonymous No.52779180]

>>52779091
because there is no good economic system when people have free will

[Anonymous No.52779217]

>>52779091
What? He explicitely laid out alternatives. Called it communism...are you braindead or something or are you intentionally lying? First he laid out capitalisms inherent unstable, exploitative and unsustainable nature in a mathematical and scientific manner and then proceeded to lay out alternatives and even suggested ways to get there. Specifically he had 3 main goals in mind: abolition of state, abolition of money(private propety) and abolition of classes.

[Anonymous No.52779254]

>>52779091
Also daily reminder:

Finance and economics are pseudoscientific make believe gqrbage and capitalism is inherently unstable, exploitative and unsustainable with a built in expiration date. Ever escalating recessions, poverty, debt, wealth inequality, monopolies, disease, pollution, exploitation, slavery, conflict and wars are fundamental, necessary and intended principles of it, NOT glitches. Greed, selfishness, lying, cheating, stealing, competition, conflict, slavery and war are behaviors highly encouraged and incentivized under capitalism. It is LITERALLY cancer and i dont mean it metaphorically, i mean it literally, it shares the exact same functions and principles as a cancer cell.

You know how all of you parasites always say "HuRr durr gommunism maybe good in theory but always 'fails'"? Well capitalism doesnt even work in theory and unfortunately for financier parasites like you, we live in a mathematical universe and if something cant be expressed in a theoretical/mathematical way it WILL not appear or be maintained in the physical world.

The freer the market the more enslaved everything and everyone else is and the more blood sacrifices need to be performed to "the Line god". An economy needs to be as regulated and planned as possible to serve the living beings needs and desires and be able to be adjusted according to our needs at any given moment/period.

4chan parasites, financiers, rightoids and nazis like you will seethe and cope but these are the facts and the longer you deny them and bury your heads in the sand and scapegoat innocent beings(poors,women,non human animals,black ppl or whoever else you braindead parasites hate) the more you will continue leading lonely, sad, hateful and painful lives into even more miserable and pointless deaths as the proud, obedient, compliant, insecure and submissive bootlicking proud modern day slaves that you so desperately want be

[Anonymous No.52779255]

>>52779180
The ONLY economic system that is good is when everyoine has free will. WTF?

[Anonymous No.52779264]

>>52779091

[Anonymous No.52779265]

>>52779217
You will own nothing and you will be happy

[Anonymous No.52779292]

>>52779255
the only economic system that is good is when a benevolent dictator takes over and focuses on energy generation/harvesting above all else. a benevolent dictator who forces society to focus solely on building nuclear plants and eventually dyson spheres instead of fulfilling whatever wasteful degenerate wish they have in the immediate moment. if we buckled down and did the work for a century or two we could be free forever

[Anonymous No.52779388]

>>52779265
You already own nothing under capitalism, you buy literally everything by trading your blood sweat and tears every day. What must it take for parasites like you to understand that fact? Must air be commodified and bought too so they charge you for every breath you draw? Only then you will realize that you are a slave? Does the gun have to PHYSICALLY be pointed 24/7 at your head?

Unless of course you are among the property owning class of 0.1% of the population. Im sure that is the case dude. And no owning 1 home which you use as shelter is not private property. That is called personal property(but most likely you dont even have that like the majority of people)

Fun fact: slaves were always provided with the essentials. Shelter...food...water..often they were even allowed to procreate and form little communities in their shanty towns. What makes the slave isnt the existence or not of personal property. What makes a slave is the social relations and the threat of violence and execution.

[Anonymous No.52779392]

>>52779091
>economics in a scientific way
>scientific way
>marxism
>scientific way
>marxism
>scientific way
>marxism
>scientific way
>marxism
LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL

[Anonymous No.52779543]

>>52779254
I give it a 6/10. Best I can do.

[Anonymous No.52779591]

>>52779217
As far as I can remember he never laid out any positive vision of communism besides the abolition of private property, and specifically avoided the question of what it would look like by claiming it wasn't a "state of affairs to be established."

[Anonymous No.52779667]

He couldn't manage a fucking grocery department. Manifesto my ass.

[Anonymous No.52779685]

>>52779388
Communists point out the flaws with capitalism... and their solution is to make everything even worse! Never trust a communist. Better dead than red and best of all is to be your own man instead of following the herd to the slaughterhouse.

[Anonymous No.52779716]

>>52779091
The Labor Theory of Value is wrong. Simple as.

[Anonymous No.52779776]

>>52779292
The governance doesn't matter as long as the money and the credit is sound.
It's because we have central banking that we have these massive governments, and have thus come to blame this government for all our problems because we expect it to do everything for us.
Nobody is supposed to force you to do anything, or make something, nobody owes you fucking anything. That's when things make sense, when there isn't a giant monopoly on organized violence that forces everybody to play a game.

[Anonymous No.52780004]

>>52779091
Because that was not his goal (contrary to the illiterate mouthbreathers here). His goal was a factual analysis of capitalism as it actually exists, and complementary analysis of society in material terms informed by the economics. He never wrote a single book that proposed an "ideal" or alternative economic system because he rejected normative economics altogether. As a scientist, his object was only to explain.

[Anonymous No.52780018]

>>52779217
>He explicitely laid out alternatives.
t. never read Marx

[Anonymous No.52780035]

>>52779716
You don't even know what it is, brainlet.

[Anonymous No.52780143]

>>52779254
>Ever escalating recessions, poverty, debt, wealth inequality, monopolies, disease, pollution, exploitation, slavery, conflict and wars are fundamental, necessary and intended principles of it, NOT glitches. Greed, selfishness, lying, cheating, stealing, competition, conflict, slavery and war are behaviors highly encouraged and incentivized under capitalism. It is LITERALLY cancer and i dont mean it metaphorically, i mean it literally, it shares the exact same functions and principles as a cancer cell
I agree but what can we do about it?

[Anonymous No.52780164]

>>52779217

[Anonymous No.52780215]

>>52779091
It's kind of like the asymmetry between being a deep appreciator of great music but being unable to create such music.

[Anonymous No.52780235]

>>52779091
>good at criticism
>bad at solutions
sounds jewish

[Anonymous No.52780419]

The major flaw of marxism is that it ignores reality. Abolishing class,private property, and money, is just flat out retarded. All sentient organisms claim territory and create classes by nature. The issue is corporations and banks shouldn't be allowed to own property

Humans need some kind of currency to exchange for a civilization to function.The current inequality of the welfare state is one of the biggest reasons for so much class warefare right now.

Marx also never addressed how jews shouldn't be allowed in positions of banking or political power. This is the biggest cause of wealth inequality. No free market can exist when a federal reserve exists and an entire population exists to subvert the system

You will always have 80IQ subhumans, like>>52779292 that only exist in the system as slaves and cattle. No amount of eugenics can fix it.

[Anonymous No.52780717]

>>52780164
What book?

[Anonymous No.52780752]

>>52779254
How is the consensual, free exchange of goods and services between 2 parties cancerous?

[Anonymous No.52780853]

>>52779180
Humans dont have free will you retard.

[Anonymous No.52780875]

>>52779091
Indeed. He had good insights and analysis but his solution was complete fantasy land bs. The same problem as modern liberals really.

[Anonymous No.52780878]

>>52780752
>free exchange
>were allowed to play soccer on this field that changes shapes according to the bets some big noses in the shadows have put on our game

[Anonymous No.52780894]

>>52780419
Literally the best take on Marx I've seen and naturally /biz/ doesn't notice

[Anonymous No.52780922]

>>52780419
>sentience
>ego
kys absolute niggers
fucking economists read some jung do some drugs other than stimmies

[Anonymous No.52781205]

>>52780035
Yes I do. Marxian LTV declares that the value of a commodity is equal to the amount of socially necessary (lol) hours needed to produce it. The Marxian LTV distinguishes between price and value, in fact this is the entire problem, because you can't consistently transform units of abstract homogeneous labor time into dollar prices.

[Anonymous No.52781549]

>>52780717
Karl Popper's 'The Open Society and Its Enemies'.

[Anonymous No.52781623]

Good thread, I enjoyed it

[Anonymous No.52781674]

>>52779091
Because the system he came up with was based on bad science and a massive misunderstanding of pre-agricultural humanity. Marx believed that humans in the Stone Age had no concept of property or social class - this is completely retarded obviously

[Anonymous No.52781788]

>>52781205
>because you can't consistently transform units of abstract homogeneous labor time into dollar prices
Yes you can. The labor content of a commodity is the most accurate predictor of its price. This has been established empirically.

[Anonymous No.52781936]

>>52781788
It hasn't, stop watching videos from crackpots like Cockshott and go back to /lit/ before you lose all your money.

[Anonymous No.52782219]

>>52779091
>despite going about economics in a scientific way?
His theories were complete horseshit.
They were refuted by Bohm Bawerk and marxists are STILL seething about it to this very day.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Marx_and_the_Close_of_His_System

[Anonymous No.52782238]

>>52779217
>First he laid out capitalisms inherent unstable, exploitative and unsustainable nature in a mathematical and scientific manner
No he didn't. He was wrong though.
He thought wages would stay on subsistence level, when in realty they massively increased, even during his life.
He was wrong about the labor theory of value. Bohm Bawerk refuted him with time preference theory.
Also he was a crazy occultist that thought creating an authoritarian giga state would magically result in it withering away.
Marxism is a religious cult.

[Anonymous No.52782259]

>>52779388
>You already own nothing under capitalism
This is wrong. The working class receive 99% of the end product of production in terms of goods and services. You receive almost everything.
Under socialism you get nothing.

>Must air be commodified
Capitalism creates abundance. Air is ALREADY abundant.

>And no owning 1 home which you use as shelter is not private property. That is called personal property
Nobody except communist incels gives a fuck about these arbitrary definitions.

[Anonymous No.52782295]

>>52781936
>>52781788
Reminder that cockshott is fucking retarded and austrians constantly refute him.

[Anonymous No.52782367]

>>52782295
>austrians

[Anonymous No.52782378]

>>52782259
>The working class receive 99% of the end product of production in terms of goods and services.

[Anonymous No.52782388]

>>52782219
>>52782238
^ Proof that you have no clue what you're talking about.

[Anonymous No.52782402]

>>52782367
>austrians

>>52782378
>>The working class receive 99% of the end product of production in terms of goods and services.
Prove me wrong lmao.
and please, go ahead and confuse money with resources so we can all laugh at your bootlicking ass

>>52782388
You made 3 posts in a row, seething with no argument lmao

[Anonymous No.52782411]

>>52780004
>As a scientist,
Marx wasn't a scientist.
He was a pseudoscientist.
He unironically thought that all human behavior was the result of economic forces.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Base_and_superstructure
This is religious cultist thinking
He and modern marxists don't even accept human instincts.

[Anonymous No.52782443]

>>52779217
>>52779388
*puts out cigar on your forehead*

[Anonymous No.52782459]

>>52782378
Imma post this as well.

[Anonymous No.52782472]

>>52782402
>Prove me wrong lmao.
The fact that you think the ability to consooom all the plastic crap that workers make is some kind of reward says it all.

[Anonymous No.52782508]

>>52782472
>plastic crap
LMFAO
The point of the economy is to produce and provide goods and services. I'm obviously talking about everything(food, shelter, clothing, medicine etc) not just toys, brainlet.
The working class literally receives virtually all of these goods and services produced in the economy.
The amount of capitalists is incredibly tiny and they can only consume so much. The vast majority of their money is either invested or saved(both which benefit the economy and result in more goods produced, or more goods consumed by the workers.)

>b-b-but they have more CASH than us
Completely irrelevant and inconsequential.
Taking their cash away and spending it won't magically change the fact that the workers receives virtually all of the goods.

Taking over the means of production will give you NOTHING. You live in a fantasy world.

[Anonymous No.52782539]

>>52782508
>The working class literally receives virtually all of these goods and services produced in the economy.
You really are a complete and utter moron. You can't even comprehend the idea of a human activity that doesn't involve mindlessly CONSOOMING PRODUCTS like a bugman. The point of wealth is power not material consumption. Your autism prevents you from grasping how things world in the world outside your basement.

[Anonymous No.52782565]

>>52782539
>You really are a complete and utter moron.
HAHA You're coping so hard and have no argument.
I love that you didn't even attempt to refute the other things I said in my other posts.

>CONSOOMING PRODUCTS like a bugman
Alright, so basically your argument is that consuming goods and services is bad and we shouldn't have houses, food, clothing, medicine, entertainment etc.
You're the most honest marxist I've come across. Good job.
>YOU WILL OWN NOTHING!!!!

>The point of wealth is power not material consumption.
The point of production is consumption. Otherwise, why would humans do it? Even animals produce to consume. You're actually braindead.

>basement
Says the marxist incel.

[Anonymous No.52782607]

>>52779091

Human nature is not organized and it is not altruistic. Any economic system based on that (communism) will fail.

Capitalism at least functions mostly. It's like a broken car that constantly needs a hack to get running. But at least it runs.

[Anonymous No.52782648]

>>52782565
You are beyond retarded. Consuming is not owning. You seem to subscribe to the WEF motto of "own nothing and be happy". Ownership (aka power) is what matters to grown-ups with any self-respect. The right to consume is indeed one benefit of ownership but not a major one. Working people do *not* own the vast majority of land and physical capital, and thus have little control over their own lives and culture. Capital owns the country and its political representatives and media mouthpieces, shaping society as it sees fit. Your obsession with consooming products is juvenile and indicative of abject autistic soulessness.

[Anonymous No.52782746]

>>52782648
>You are beyond retarded.
Then why are you unable to refute me, you low IQ marxist bootlicker?
>Consuming is not owning.
LMFAO WHAT?
So if you buy a sandwich, you somehow magically don't own it? What the fuck are you talking about? Who owns it then?

>You seem to subscribe to the WEF motto
The WEF are literal marxists and Klaus Schwab has a bust of your buddy Lenin in his office.
There's a reason why marxists want you to own nothing.

>"own nothing and be happy".
Look at every marxist country in history and tell me that again.

>Ownership (aka power)
Nobody is talking about muh power. Why are you completely changing the subject after getting royally btfo?
We're only talking about which class owns the END PRODUCT of production. You're simply wrong and going through insane mental gymnastics to save face.

>Working people do *not* own the vast majority of land and physical capital
So? If they did own these things, their lives wouldn't be any better. They wouldn't get to work less hours, they wouldn't get to own any more of the end product of production.

>and thus have little control over their own lives and culture.
Aside from the freeom the state(which you support) has taken from them, they have total control of their lives.
There's a reason why 65% of americans own their own homes.

>Capital owns the country
No, it doesn't. This statement is nonsense.

>Your obsession with consooming products is juvenile
LMFAO
You're literally opening advocating that the working class work harder for less pay. You're factually telling me this right now.
You think workers should get LESS housing, clothing, medicine, food, entertainment etc.

>soulessness
I care about human progress and I hate poverty, I don't care about muh spiritual horseshit. Kill yourself tyrant.

[Anonymous No.52782779]

>>52780853
Hey everyone poiny and laugh at the edgelord

[Anonymous No.52782815]

>>52779091
>Jews are capitalists
>Marx hated Jews
Wtf I love communism now

[Anonymous No.52782916]

Banks only hire Marxists to research new opportunities to make money. Why? Because they understand exploitation, fictional capital, and war.

[Anonymous No.52782998]

>>52782916
>Because they understand exploitation,
What exploitation?
Exploitation theory was disproven by bohm bawerk.
Marxists STILL have no refutation to this very day.

[Anonymous No.52783160]

>>52779264
cool picture chuddy but marx hated jews

[Anonymous No.52783179]

>>52782998
>He argued that interest does not exist due to exploitation of workers. Workers would get the whole of what they helped produce only if production were instantaneous. But because production is roundabout, he wrote, some of the product that Marx attributed to workers must go to finance this roundaboutness, that is, must go to capital. Böhm-Bawerk noted that interest would have to be paid no matter who owned the capital.

[Anonymous No.52783208]

>>52782815
Not true, 80% of communist top brass in soviet union was jewish

[Anonymous No.52783236]

>>52779091
>He had extremely good criticisms and analyses of capitalism yet couldn't come up with anything better.

That's because capitalism sums up human nature in all its selfish glory

[Anonymous No.52783256]

>>52783179
>>He argued that interest does not exist due to exploitation of workers. Workers would get the whole of what they helped produce only if production were instantaneous. But because production is roundabout, he wrote, some of the product that Marx attributed to workers must go to finance this roundaboutness, that is, must go to capital. Böhm-Bawerk noted that interest would have to be paid no matter who owned the capital.
Yes, true.
Still hasn't been refuted.
Also productivity and pay are strongly corelated. People who post the productivity pay gap graph should be shot.
https://www.aspeninstitute.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/3.2-Pgs.-168-179-The-Link-Between-Wages-and-Productivity-is-Strong.pdf

[Anonymous No.52783269]

>>52783160
Marx was a jew though. Was he self hating?

[Anonymous No.52783377]

>>52783256
>To study whether the typical worker's pay is strongly related to productivity, the median wage of all workers is a good measure to use. Half of all workers earn above the median and half earn below.

Can you refute econophysics?

[Anonymous No.52783610]

>>52783377
>econophysics
>Econophysics is a heterodox interdisciplinary research field, applying theories and methods originally developed by physicists in order to solve problems in economics, usually those including uncertainty or stochastic processes and nonlinear dynamics. Some of its application to the study of financial markets has also been termed statistical finance referring to its roots in statistical physics. Econophysics is closely related to social physics.

I never heard of this shit in my life. Seems like horseshit. None of this shit can refute austrian economics because austrian economics is based on logical axioms.

[Anonymous No.52783773]

>>52779091
>How was he unable to come up with a good economic system despite going about economics in a scientific way?
because he was a bullshit artist

[Anonymous No.52783872]

>>52783610
>based on logical axioms
There's a reason mathematics is more developed than other disciplines. Deduction > induction.

[Anonymous No.52783902]

I think the biggest problem with any system is that it assumes the people are driven by reasonable, economic thought. That's not the case. Economics play a way smaller part in people's lives than communists and capitalists think.

Most people struggle with addictions, mental health problems, very sticky emotional and family situations, lack of meaning and so on. Others don't even have the capacity to think or plan economically in the mid to long term in the first placs. It's been thoroughly studied that economic factors are way down on the list of factors for consumers' choices. They are mostly emotional and impulsive. This is why no system will stop exploitation from happening. There will be always malicious, more calculated, scheming people to manipulate the vast majority into work or consumption that is only beneficial to the manipulators. To call one system good and the other bad is a false dichotomy, humans will be the same, it's just that the formal stuff around everything is different.

[Anonymous No.52783967]

>>52783872
>There's a reason mathematics is more developed than other disciplines.
Logic is more pure than mathematics.
Try refuting all bachelors are unmarried and humans act. You literally can't.

[Anonymous No.52784117]

>>52783967
Logic isn't as pure as you think, there's unsolvable contradictions and true statements that can't be proven. It's not a perfect system at all. Mathematics isn't either for the same reasons. "This sentence is a lie."

[Anonymous No.52784125]

>>52784117
>there's unsolvable contradictions and true statements that can't be proven.
okay so you're basically saying nothing can ever be known to be truth, if this is the case why even study anything?

[Anonymous No.52784131]

>>52783610
Econophysics uses the model of thermodynamics to predict wealth distribution. The analogy is that money in an economy is like energy in particles. Economic exchange between agents is modeled as particles "bumping" into each other: one gains energy/money and one loses energy/money. By showing that there is a sharp contrast in distribution between the physical system and the economic system for the highest earners/most energetic particles , exploitation is shown to exist. I understand this might be hard for you to understand as you mistake median for mean, something an elementary school math student should know.

[Anonymous No.52784197]

>>52784125
it's a fundamental problem in logic and mathematics. look up "gödel's incompleteness" if you're not aware of it, there's some pop science videos about it like by veritasium. a way more interesting take is that by Roger Penrose though. Watch from here for 5 minutes or so but not sure when he makes the important point exactly. it's not that you can't know or prove anything, but you can only do that in systems/rulesets and to understand them you have to be outside of them and that's kind of the problem, but ignore what i said and just watch https://youtu.be/orMtwOz6Db0?t=1177

[Anonymous No.52784206]

>>52784125
by the way i wasn't saying don't study anything there's no point, i just noticed what you said was interesting and wanted to add some maybe different commentary

[Anonymous No.52784230]

>>52784131
>The analogy
So... it's just an analogy, meaning it has nothing to do with economics? Got it.

>exploitation is shown to exist.
How? It's can't be proven logically.
It's meaningless.

>I understand this might be hard for you to understand
Projecting much? You're speaking giberish.

[Anonymous No.52784361]

>>52782648
>Your obsession with consooming products is juvenile
YOU previously mischaracterized what he had said as that, which was not true, and which he has already refuted. You should read your own posts before you post some more.

[Anonymous No.52784376]

>>52784361
Thanks anon. He stopped posting lol

[Anonymous No.52784437]

>>52782539
>mindlessly CONSOOMING PRODUCTS like a bugman
you use the word consuming in a context which seems to imply a fat person eating far too much pie. buying a house is consuming a product which was produced, as is tooling it up. assets are "consumed" into the individuals private economy. some are "used up" (actually consumed), but many add value to an individuals/familys economy (and thus societys) such as tools, or computers, or extended education or the means to teach onself or ones children a new skill (such as buying your child a musical instrument -- sure the instrument is "consoomed", but the child may become the next Roger Watters, adding tremendous cultural and/or monetary value to the wider society)

[Anonymous No.52784575]

>>52784437
based and supporting my main argument pilled

[Anonymous No.52784599]

Capitalist defenders are so fucking stupid. It's insane

[Anonymous No.52784647]

>>52779091
He knew better than to write about a future society as if it could be easily predicted. Every single brainlet contemporary thought they had the answers and look what happened. He spent an inordinate amount of time picking their arguments apart when he should have concentrated on fleshing out Capital and not leaving Engels with such a herculean editing task. That would have contributed better than engaging in polemics, because, sadly, his efforts in that area didn't prevent disaster. But I suppose he felt he had to try.

[Anonymous No.52784685]

>>52784131
if you change the word "money" to "value", the analogy might be more applicable to free markets

[Anonymous No.52784707]

>>52783902
humans are absurd creatures that will upset the most careful and sensible planning even to their own detriment

[Anonymous No.52784792]

>>52784599
Then why can't you bootlickers refute our arguments?
Your ideal currently existing countries: Venezuela, Cuba, North Korea.
Our ideal currently existing countries:
Switzerland, Singapore, Ireland, New Zealand, Taiwan.

Gee, who's the brainlet here?

[Anonymous No.52785081]

>>52779091
Because he bought into the labor theory of value which is obviously wrong to anyone with a brain. Additionally, without markets there is no way to do meaningful economic calculations.

[Anonymous No.52785118]

>>52779091
Hi zoomer.

Answer: because it’s easier to critique than creating something good

All this jew wanted is a reset so people had a chance replacing the current elite

Also: Bolshevism is religion of the slave caste, (classic) liberalism, “science“ and capitalism the gods of the merchant caste. Both are lowly and lack spirituality.
The lower the caste the quicker and uglier it’s failure.

[Anonymous No.52785156]

>>52780419
People always pretend like Marx imagined a socialist state as the endgoal, when in reality he just laid it out as a stepping stone towards communism. Which doesn't have government or money. Without money you can't have Jewish bankers. Without government you can't have Jews with political power. Now the actual issue is the assumption that a state would ever voluntarily work towards it's own dissolution, but otherwise there's nothing wrong with Marxs theory

[Anonymous No.52785685]

>>52784131
Nonsense. That model, as you describe it, presumes that economic exchanges are win/lose when in fact economic exchanges in free markets are always win/win, at least in the subjective evaluation of the actors (which is the only evaluation that matters). In free markets win/lose transactions do not occur.

[Anonymous No.52785699]

>>52785156
Without money, economic calculation is impossible. Without economic calculation it is impossible to determine what goods should be produced and how much of them.

[Anonymous No.52785872]

>>52785699
Sure, by in a CLASSLESS society you wouldn't need to have these calculations. Not saying that that will ever happen again or whatever, but yeah - if such a society exists, that is "equal", that is classless, moneyless, authroityless, you wouldnt need such calculations because we would all apparently be happy and do orgies 24/7.

But our conception of "property" and "ownership" only came in existence thanks to the branching of farming into different fields like agriculture and leathermaking and whatnot; when we made more than we needed - and thus our population got bigger, leading to the development of social organizations, as Weber noted, which lead and still lead to ever-more specialization in specific fields.

So, what im trying to say is this - we were once classless, but we werent very advanced technologically, we needed, if we wanted to survive, to only focus on survival of us and our SMALL hunter-gatherer communities. There was not a question in the mind of the primitive man, or woman for that matter, of amassing great wealth to show off, to increase ones status; nor was there societal pressure for individuals to do so - because, society, as we know it today, didnt exist.

So yes, there once was a classless "society," but that society didn't have excess resources, didn't have specialization, and there were no advanced (if any!) tools for the people of that time to use - and today we have excess resources, every position is super-specialized, and there are countless advanced tools for mankind to use at their will - and im not sure if these conditions, these plants, if you will, bear the fruits of classlessness.

[Anonymous No.52785885]

>>52779091
>He had extremely good criticisms and analyses of capitalism yet couldn't come up with anything better.

critics have existed throughout time.

[Anonymous No.52785900]

>>52784792
>Your ideal
>Our ideal

Typical in-group vs out-group behavior

[Anonymous No.52786054]

>>52785900
>Typical in-group vs out-group behavior
Yes. That's the point.

>>52785156
>but otherwise there's nothing wrong with Marxs theory
Holy fuck retard, just look at some of the critiques in this thread.
Also, the state won't "wither away" you batshit insane communist.

>>52785872
>Sure, by in a CLASSLESS society you wouldn't need to have these calculations
Yes, you literally would. Does getting rid of classes magically mean there is no economy? Do things not need to be produced? Retard.

>But our conception of "property" and "ownership" only came in existence thanks to the branching of farming into different fields like agriculture and leathermaking and whatnot;
No, they didn't. People have wanted to own objects for all human history. Even animals demonstrate ownership.

>So yes, there once was a classless "society,"
lmao prehistoric man was not classless. What is this marxist ahistorical nonsense?

[Anonymous No.52786120]

>>52779264
The red star doesn't date to 1848, it was used by the Russian Red Army

I think if people call you both a Jew and an anti-semite you should get some slack. Read his response to Bruno Bauer 'On The Jewish Question' his point about Jewish hucksterism being generalised to the entire population is pretty prescient, is the world really better off run by Donald Trump or Thiel than Bill Gates?

[Anonymous No.52786140]

>>52782459
most businesses aren't owned by entrepreneurs. Capital is increasingly concentrated.

[Anonymous No.52786174]

>>52779091
Let me tell you something about Capitalism.

[Anonymous No.52786195]

>>52783610
In praxeology Hayek displays a certitude about how humans will act that rival's Marx and Hegel's certitude about how history proceeds. What happens if America becomes a capitalist utopia but all the cobalt is still mined by African child slaves. It isn't a society that anyone should want and it isn't ecologically sustainable

[Anonymous No.52786245]

>>52782648
Equitable ownership is also a meme unless there's collective shareholding within a centralized economy. There's no way to have a capitalist system that is equitable in ownership or consumption.

[Anonymous No.52786312]

>>52786140
>most businesses aren't owned by entrepreneurs.
what? of course they are

>Capital is increasingly concentrated.
Capital is increasingly distributed as more people buy stock in businesses.

>>52786174
Dude is a fucking brainlet.

>>52786195
>that rival's Marx and Hegel's certitude about how history proceeds.
Marx theory was nonsense. Imagine thinking that all human behavior is the result of economic forces. Imagine thinking that communism is magically inevitable. The falling rate of profit theory was also refuted.

>What happens if America becomes a capitalist utopia but all the cobalt is still mined by African child slaves.
I hope at that point people would invade those countries and kill the warlords preventing these countries from having free markets.

[Anonymous No.52786650]

>>52781788
I spent a cumulative 5,000 hours shitting on my toilet until it broke. Does that make the toilet worth $20 x 5000 hours = $100,000? Of course not, the toilet performed no work after all! Or did it? Anyways--

While I was shitting, to pass the time, I worked on my magnum opus, a massive 72"x72" watercolor on canvas. It took me 5000 hours also to complete it. Is not the painting worth at least $100,000? I am economically obligated (it has been demonstrated empirically) to receive at least $100,000 to fairly compensate me for my time-labor.

If no one will buy it for that price, then it's clearly due to labor discrimination and I will be forced to sue the state employment board for failure to uphold regulations on worker protections. I am ECONOMICALLY OBLIGATED to receive fair compensation for my blood, sweat and tears (a couple shit smears too).

[Anonymous No.52786715]

>>52786650
>t. has no clue what LTV is

[Anonymous No.52786737]

>>52786715
Refute Bohm Bawerk then.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Marx_and_the_Close_of_His_System

[Anonymous No.52787047]

>>52786737
Already done long ago. Try to keep up.

[Anonymous No.52787081]

>>52787047
>Already done long ago.
I'm waiting.
Where is it?
Marx has been refuted from a million different angles. Marxists totally ignore these refutations and continue believing Marx.

[Anonymous No.52787101]

>>52786715
"The values of commodities are directly as the times of labour employed in their production, and are inversely as the productive powers of the labour employed."

Don't lie to me scum, I am very well versed in Das Kapital.

[Anonymous No.52787107]

>>52787047
Man, also LOL you got totally BTFO this entire thread and couldn't respond to anything we said.
You're a true believer religious cultist.
Just end your life.

[Anonymous No.52787132]

>>52787101
You have no clue what that sentence means, if your previous post is any indication.

[Anonymous No.52787153]

It isn't scientific if it isn't grounded in scientific, real truths. It's just fantasy. He wants nations of millions of people to just share and cooperate by nature, that's insane. People don't do that. They haven't even been able to get towns of like 500 to do that. The inevitable happens: the lazy don't pull their weight, the ambitious are disillusioned by the lack of prizes for harder/smarter work, the power hungry inevitably establish hierarchy and the process repeats.

[Anonymous No.52787154]

>>52779091
i think people misframe economics and miss a big part of it which is that it's basically like a constant war. maybe thats why

[Anonymous No.52787157]

>>52787132
why are you still posting in this thread if you have no argument?
remember when you posted 3 seetheposts in a row without actually responding to the arguments lmao

[Anonymous No.52787159]

>>52787081
Where is your refutation of LTV? If I can't cite other works, neither can you.

>>52787107
Imagine being this phantasmagorically delusional.

[Anonymous No.52787184]

>>52787153
>t. never read Marx

[Anonymous No.52787186]

>>52787081

It is a belief system. It's simply a religion, a theocratic model. There is no grounding in anything. You might as well pledge allegiance to an Ummah or Pope.

[Anonymous No.52787200]

>>52787157
What arguments? Your deranged posts in this thread speak for themselves.

[Anonymous No.52787218]

>>52787159
>Where is your refutation of LTV?
My refutation is Bohm Bawerk's time preference theory. This theory is over 100 years old and marxists still can't refute it. It's such a brilliant and simple explanation for the so called "surplus value" that marxists have been mind broken for over a century.

>>52787184
>>t. never read Marx
KEK This is what EVERY fucking marxist says when backed into a corner. It's a meme at this point.
Face it, you're just a bitter manbaby.

>>52787186
>It's simply a religion, a theocratic model.
I agree. It's so obvious.

>>52787200
>What arguments?
>marxists in charge of having reading comprehension skills.

[Anonymous No.52787223]

>>52787186
Only in your florid imagination. None of the ideas you have attributed to Marx exist outside your own illiterate mind.

[Anonymous No.52787239]

>>52787223
>None of the ideas you have attributed to Marx exist outside your own illiterate mind.
Yet ANOTHER post without an argument.
https://mises.org/wire/bohm-bawerk-explains-why-marxist-exploitation-nonsense
https://mises.org/library/eugen-von-boehm-bawerks-critique-karl-marx