/biz/ - Business & Finance

>>52632994
Blockchain is the new Internet. Of course there's going to be wild speculation and fraud, just as it happened with the Internet, and with computer hardware, and with railroads. Tremendous developments come out of manias, and of course the waste needs to be pruned in subsequent busts. That no more invalidates blockchain than the railroad bubble invalidates transport by rail.

yup, I believe that it'll always provide a form of resistance against the (((bankers))) but I have little hope for it replacing the current system

Yes, I believe XRP is The Standard and actually improves finance by facilitating one second finality on transfers. It will improve the global economy by speeding up the velocity of money and allowing more trust between international partners than nostro/vostro accounts allow for.

>>52632994
Creating ponzis, Creating pump and dumps, Casino are usecases
Also sending money worldwide, especially anonymous is a usecase
Also storing worth out of reach of the govcernment is a very good usecase

>>52633035
They are already busy subverting crypto with ETH and ICP, but their abilities are not limitless. The financial system used to be based on the pristine collateral (collateral that's not anyone's liability) of gold, but it defaulted and the spending has become more and more profilgate over the decades. The core (the US) is doing best, as normally, since the periphery uses more derived forms of money (unhedged USD bond debt), but spending in the US is escalating too. Adopting a new form of collateral, which will only be adopted because it cannot be printed, is just a reversion to the historical norm, just as the return of the value of fiat currencies to 0 is. People who think that this system can continue forever suffer from shortsightedness, as they cannot imagine the system in which they grew up changing, despite how much it has changed already since 2008, or since 2020.

>>52632994
Super Mario is back on the internet computer

>>52632994
wait until people realize what will happen with the financial system will be 100x worse than the ftx fiasco in crypto. then everybody, not just crypto enthiusasts, will understand we need open finance powered by blockchains

>>52633030
>Blockchain is the new Internet

clearly it isn't. the internet continues to work just fine without it.

>>52633328
>engines are going to take over horses job to move vehicles
>clearly not, horses are working just fine

Retard

We all know it's a scam but it's going to boom one more time so don't miss out

>>52633328
If you had a choice, would you choose decentralized or gatekept internet?
Okokok lemme out it this way... Do you prefer the internet of the late 90s or post 2007?

>>52633390
Blockchain is a step backwards from even the most archaic distributed database technology.

>>52633442
I would choose the old internet, the people implementing the new system would choose new internet.
Both reasons are obvious.
Also op is a bot.

>>52632994
If I didn't belive in it I wouldn't see real appreciaton in it.

>>52633453
>Blockchain is a step backwards from even the most archaic distributed database technology.
no. without blockchains you can't create and transfer value without a centralized intermediary

>>52632994
i like the fact that if i ask for someone to send me money in bitcoin or if im the one sending it its untracable. if i were to use paypal or cash app my name would show up and its linked to my bank account or debit card.

>>52633453
You could say the same about horses and early engines. Your point is irrelevant and void of actual sense. Tell me you are 50+ without telling me you are, grandpa

>>52633599
>he thinks Bitcoin isn’t traceable
That’s cute anon

>>52632994
i think voting would be one of the few useful real-world applications of block chain, but of course it's a classic tale of pearls before mentally retarded swine.
>NIGGERS ARE TOO DUMB TO USE ELECTRONIC VOTING THIS IS RACIST AND UNCONSTITUTIONAL THINK OF THE HECKIN 85 IQ NIGGERMONKEYS WHO WOULD BE EXCLUDED FROM CASTIN DEY VOTE

>>52633734
it isn't but it still more secure than paypal

>>52633734
>print off paper wallet at a public library
>hold paper wallet in safe for years
>physically trade paper wallet for goods Nd services

>>52633598
>>52633612
Nonsense.

>>52632994
>deep down we’re all just in this to make money
Deep down? Jokes on you, I'm in this to make money first and foremost.

However, consider the following:
- I've been born in a country that doesn't exist anymore, and its currency doesn't exist either;
- Said country instituted currency controls and robbed people by severely limiting bank withdrawals;
- The successor state happily hyperinflated their new currency, rendering whatever you had on your bank account worthless AGAIN;
- The currency keeps inflating;
- At a few occasions within the last 10 years the currency displayed more volatility than Monero;
- The currency controls are instituted again;
- This is still not the worst currency in the world.

You can probably guess where I'm from, but it doesn't really matter.
What matters is: I have good reasons to have absolutely zero faith in fiat. Cash is trash. People, who are not accountable to me, can turn their monopoly money into flaming garbage faster than Liz resigned.

Monero is predictable. I don't know what will happen to its price, but everything else about it is clear. There will not been an extra trillion coins printed overnight, there will not be "sorry bud, your withdrawal limit is $100 per day", there will not be "hey, you can't transfer it to that guy!" or any other bullshit.
As long as it makes drug dealers happy I am happy with it as my savings account.

>>52632994
Decentralized algorithms will enable all interactions in society in the future. Entire governments will be replaced by smart contracts. Imagine a completely fair and transparent system where you have complete agency as an individual with no higher government entity, and you cooperate with others through smart contracts that don't require a government to enforce. This will take hundreds of years to achieve but it will happen piece by piece, starting with the financial system.

>>52633902
>copy paper wallet before I give it to you

>>52634027

In order to have that, you would need all people to join together and tell the government to go fuck itself. Considering, how retarded most people are, that will never happen. Most people, who have crypto, will let the government know about every transaction. It's over.

>>52632994
The bank I work for thinks it's got utility for international trade (think shipping)
But I assume that will be something we build in house.

imagine not being bullish on the worldwide digital casino. imagine not being bullish on people becoming even more desperate and degenerate

human nature doesn't change, the cycle of fear and greed will never go away. and if you genuinely think the new beyond fucked generation will start "saving up" like their boomer parents did you're a moron. absolutely no one believes anymore that you can "make it" through regular working and saving anymore, everyone is aware that absolutely everything is a scam even money itself so might as well throw everything at FartCoin 9000 and see what happens.
everyone is desperately searching for any kind of lottery ticket to escape the rat race, boomer fairy tale land is over

>>52633328
Glowing boomer hands wrote this

>>52634081
No, it will be a slow process, like I said. First the currency, taking away fiat greatly weakens the government, then the financial system. Then slowly as more businesses adopt smart contracts to prevent fraud and crime the role of the government dwindles away. Maybe the next step might be utilities, like renewable energy works better at small scales. Its more resilient too then a centralized grid. Eventually all that's left of the government might be education and military. Maybe education is replaced by a DAO, maybe its funded by companies who hire educated labor. The the government itself could become a DAO which maintains a protective force to prevent centralized power from regaining dominance. This could happen over hundreds of years so it doesn't require everyone revolting all at once, but a slow adoption.

>>52633955
nice argument, retard. in a distributed system without blockchain you need to trust all participants for it to work, and you need a central authority telling you what version is true.

>>52634933
False.

>>52634933
technically not without "blockchain" specifically but distributed ledger (DLT) which blockchain is one specific implementation of.
>>52634968
one purpose of a distributed ledger it not requiring a central authority, if it requires a central authority then there is probably no point in using a blockchain.

>>52632994
>Does anyone actually believe in this shit
Yes, but I don't think blockchain solves literally every problem like some idiots who drank too much of the kool-aid

There are a limited number of genuine uses for a blockchain (a properly decentralized and secure one), and I think over the next decade the relevant markets will adopt them and it'll just be another thing running in the background to make those industries cheaper and more efficient to run. The number of blockchains that will actually get adopted and used though will be in the single digits and just about everything out there right now will crash and burn when it's inevitably not adopted for real-world use

>>52632994
And exactly what real world applications do gold or cash have? Making a necklace or a paper airplane?

All money is an illusion. Just roll with it.

>>52635026
The idea that blockchain is the only peer-to-peer technology is an egregious zoomer misconception.

>>52635081
>And exactly what real world applications do gold or cash have? Making a necklace
For gold, yes. For USD, paying taxes.

Honestly? No, I don' t think Bitcoin is going to be the future of money.

But so long as number keeps going up and down and normies keep buying during bull markets I can profit so I don't care.

I'm in this purely for the money lol.

>>52635245
Taxes are not specific to fiat. The government could tax in bitcoin if it had to. It taxes in fiat now because it wants to spend with fiat.

>>52635354
>The government could tax in bitcoin if it had to.
But it doesn't. It taxes in USD. That's why USD has fundamental value and BTC does not.

>>52635430
That's not fundamental to USD... The government just chooses to tax in USD. They could choose to tax in bitcoin. Would you then say bitcoin had fundamental value even though it didn't fundamentally change at all? No.

The government taxes in USD because it needs to spend USD to buy goods and services to achieve w/e its goals are. The problem is it spends way more than it taxes. So the gov net devalues the dollar. So are you saying the dollar has negative fundamental value? I doubt it.

If the gov only spent as much as it taxed, then the USD should have long term value similar to bitcoin. Problem is, the gov spends way more than it taxes because of various reasons (corruption, to maintain an illusion of short term growth for political gain, laziness - its much easier to spend than tax, etc.).

If the dollar would lose adoption to bitcoin, then the government could not buy goods and services with USD (including to enforce taxation) and the gov would need to tax in bitcoin Taxation alone doesn't provide fundamental value to a currency. Overall adoption does and gov taxation is just a small part of that.

>>52635543
>They could choose to tax in bitcoin.
But they didn't.

>Would you then say bitcoin had fundamental value even though it didn't fundamentally change at all?
Yes, of course. BTC would then have mandatory organic demand. Right now it is purely speculative and can go to zero if people lose interest.

>The government taxes in USD because it needs to spend USD to buy goods and services to achieve w/e its goals are.
Nope, you have it backwards. USD is accepted as a commercial currency because there is already built-in demand from the need for 20% of economic activity to be denominated in dollars.

>>52635204
so how do you create a decentralized peer to peer technology preventing double spend genius?

>>52635606
>Yes, of course
a state in switzerland allow you to pay in btc and eth. therefore, it has fundamental value.
https://www.zg.ch/behoerden/finanzdirektion/steuerverwaltung/tax-payment-with-cryptocourrencies

>>52635606
>Yes, of course. BTC would then have mandatory organic demand. Right now it is purely speculative and can go to zero if people lose interest.
There are some people who use BTC as a currency. And so that adoption means its not purely speculative.

>there is already built-in demand from the need for 20% of economic activity to be denominated in dollars.
Wtf does "built-in" mean? The government chooses to use fiat, just like private companies choose to use fiat. If everyone choose to use bitcoin, that would drive value for bitcoin. You are treating the government like its a special entity, it doesn't matter if the government adopts it or private businesses do. Both create value. Neither is fundamental or "built into" one currency or another.

>>52632994
did gambling ever go away? ask yourself that question you stupid homo

>>52634178
The banks work pretty well without it too. Have you seen what is recorded on the bitcoin blockchain? Tell me what you see.

>>52635693
False. All Swiss taxes are denominated in CHF.

>>52632994
>only because it’s proven its longevity
Bitcoin has been around for what? A decade? I guarantee you I have underwear older than scamcoin.

>>52635430
You don't actually need to own USD for that. You can trade gold for USD on the day you pay taxes and w'allah

>>52635811
That doesn't matter, it means you don't have to acquire CHF to pay the tax. So I guess you must admit now that Bitcoin has fundamental value, by your own logic right?

>>52635711
>There are some people who use BTC as a currency. And so that adoption means its not purely speculative.
That's a tiny percentage of demand, subject to the whims of users.

>Wtf does "built-in" mean? The government chooses to use fiat
It's not a "choice", it's by fiat. Government currency is backed by the legal requirement to accept it as payment for taxes.

>You are treating the government like its a special entity
It is. They can and will lock you up if you do not pay taxes.

>>52635606
BTC is the best way to carry wealth across any national border. If you don't see why that will always be an insanely valuable use case, you're probably pretending to be retarded. Go on, smuggle a ton of gold over a border. Or try to get more fiat currency over a border than you're legally allowed to. You can carry infinite btc over any border with no trouble and you would never have to tell anyone that you're doing it.

>>52635835
>You can trade gold for USD
Exactly - the demand for USD is mandatory.

>>52633040
>It will improve the global economy by speeding up the velocity of money and allowing more trust between international partners than nostro/vostro accounts allow for.
Are you talking about crypto or central banks? Because that sounds like it came directly out of the sales pitch for the establishment of the FED.

>>52635893
Yes, one day a year, for 340 million people out of 8 billion.

>>52635837
>it means you don't have to acquire CHF to pay the tax
The taxes are denominated in CHF. That's the unit of account. That means everyone needs to acquire the equivalent value in CHF according to current exchange rates. Whether you convert it or they convert it is irrelevant.

>>52635837
>can be used as alternate payment in niche cases
>fundamental value
>fundamental
You j*w coin shills can barely speaka da inglish

>>52635917
You don't appear to be grasping the significance.

>>52635869
And the government can tax in bitcoin. They can lock you up for not paying bitcoin. So what? That is not specific to fiat. You are just stating what currently is. That's is any argument for why that will never change.

>>52635920
But you don't need to actually have the CHF. So there is no supply sink. Like theoretically that swiss state could tax more CHF worth of BTC than there is CHF in existence.

>>52635938
Point is that can increase. Say large parts of the economy switch to bitcoin. That puts massive inflationary pressure on fiat currencies as their adoption drops. The gov has to spend more and more, far more then they can tax. Eventually they'll have to tax crypto to be able to spend the crypto instead of printing more and more fiat. Hard money drives out weak money over time.

>>52635957
No, I don't. You're playing with semantics here. USD isn't valuable due to taxes you fucking retard. Surely that's obvious even to you. But enjoy your semantic game I guess. I hope being semantically correct somehow makes you money, otherwise I don't see the point

>>52635964
>And the government can tax in bitcoin.
But they don't.

>But you don't need to actually have the CHF.
It doesn't matter who converts it, only that it gets converted to CHF. Swiss government accounts are denominated in CHF. That's the medium of their revenues and expenses.

>The gov has to spend more and more, far more then they can tax. Eventually they'll have to tax crypto
Nonsensical. They already tax crypto, along with every other form of economic activity regardless of denomination. They legally require that a share of the value of that activity gets sent to them in the form of USD.

>>52635978
>USD isn't valuable due to taxes you fucking retard.
Of course it is. No "semantics" here. Every participant in the economy is legally required to pay the government in USD. Non-fiat currencies don't have such mandatory built-in demand.

>>52633390
>>engines are going to take over horses job to move vehicles
>>clearly not, horses are working just fine
>Retard

its been 10 years. there is zero sign of any of the things crypto fans talk about happening

>>52633442
>If you had a choice, would you choose decentralized or gatekept internet?
>Okokok lemme out it this way... Do you prefer the internet of the late 90s or post 2007?

i simply dont care as long as it works.

but what does this have to do with cryptocurrency?

>>52636131
you are retarded

i keep my entire networth in my pocket. it is unconfiscatable unlike every other asset in existence. if you're worried about $5 wrench attacks you can secure it behind a smart contract that only allows X withdrawals in Y time period

this is valuable beyond any measure since its never been possible in the entirety of human existence that we are aware of. im not going to explore exactly the implications of all this but rest assured anyone that has assets they don't control(all other assets except crypto) is still a slave and will always be a slave subject to the whims of the people who hold the reigns.

>>52636224
You are subject to the whims of developers, miners, exchanges, etc. whether you realize it or not.

>>52635964
You sound like a j*w coin shill. Nothing you said is significant. You sound like you’re trying to pitch an idea and you still haven’t proven you understand the word fundamental. Just another j*w coin shill trying to push your Ponzi scheme

Wish i sold my link.. It will never recover

>>52636065
I can't follow what your argument is. At first it was the standard MMT bs about taxation being some special thing that specifically gives fiat value. But now its not the taxation? But the adoption of the currency as a unit of account? Seems like you agree with me...

>They legally require that a share of the value of that activity gets sent to them in the form of USD.
But you contradict yourself... does it or does it not matter whether taxes are collected in fiat?

The government taxing in another asset and converting is a lot different. If no one uses the fiat currency, the only thing the government does by dumping their taxed assets for the low mkcap fiat it eating a fuck ton of slippage and ending up with a pile of illiquid fiat that can't acquire goods/services anyway.

>>52633030
pretty much, the finacal system runs on Cobol which has had zero development since 2006. Also even with all the fraud it was easy to notice just using a fucking block explorer. Imagine if you could audit at will the holdings of JPMorgan. Like when sam shorted BTC with WBTC, everyone saw it immediately.

>>52636405
>MMT
You obviously have no clue what that term means.

>But now its not the taxation?
Nope, it's the taxation. Government spending constitutes 46.18% of GDP in the US. Their unit of account is USD, not BTC.

>But you contradict yourself... does it or does it not matter whether taxes are collected in fiat?
The value of fiat comes from the fact that government revenues and expenses are denominated in fiat. This creates automatic built-in demand for the currency leading to an overwhelming network effect in the private economy.

>If no one uses the fiat currency
Lol, almost half the economy is government spending.

>>52635887
>you would never have to tell anyone that you're doing it.

how do you turn it into money after you cross the border? you would get caught up in anti money laundering laws just the same

>>52632994
>So far as I can see blockchain has absolutely no real world applications
faster and cheaper settlements is a pretty meaningful application
no intermediaries is a pretty meaningful application too, I mean look at 4chan, no payments service will support this shithole but crypto works fine

>>52632994
I’m in it for the tech

>>52636597
bitcoin IS money, we're just waiting on other people to integrate

>lol what is that plastic card you have, how do you turn it into cash

>>52636667
>faster and cheaper settlements is a pretty meaningful application

faster? it takes hours for a bitcoin transaction. what are you even talking about?

>>52636736
>bitcoin IS money, we're just waiting on other people to integrate

meanwhile you starve to death because you cant use your bitcoin to buy food. you tell people it is money but they won't listen.

>>52636667
biggest issue for me are transaction fees which are higher than with real bank. how can that even be, like bank is running big ibm mainframe on multi million dollar maintenance contract and their fees are lower than on amateur network that is running on trash pcs?

>>52636770
>completely unable to consider future possible realities

do you also lack an internal dialogue? can you imagine a red apple in your mind? or are you just a straight npc?

>>52636780
people who have clearly never used bitcoin are trying to say transactions are faster and cheaper than banks.

in fact they aere much much slower and also more expensive.

>>52636800
>do you also lack an internal dialogue? can you imagine a red apple in your mind? or are you just a straight npc?

i live in the real world. i dont have time for fantasies.

>>52636751
bitcoin isn't the only blockchain network

>>52636780
that just comes down to the network you use and also what kind of transactions you're doing, if you're doing big transactions then it's way cheaper than using banks, if you're doing small ones then you're gonna get fucked on btc and eth

>>52636828
>i live in the real world. i dont have time for fantasies.

yikes. everything in existence was first borne in imagination. pointless talking to a computer program, good day sir

>>52636536
You run the typical MMT talking points about taxation being the primary driver of value of a currency (not true)

>Government spending constitutes 46.18% of GDP in the US
Not true, you are cherry picking 2020. But that is still less than half. So its not even the majority factor of GDP which itself measure economic activity in the US, not even the dollar's actively globally.

Adoption is what drives value of currencies. Its what you can exchange the currency for. Taxation is a big part of that but not the only part, and not even the primary part. And taxation can be done in any currency. So what is you point? Nothing you said is specific to fiat over crypto, you are just using circular logic that taxes are generally done in fiat, and fiat has value, so taxes give value to fiat.

Crypto could be adopted globally and displace fiat before government adopt it. In the end they will have to anyway.

>>52636854
>bitcoin isn't the only blockchain network

its the only one anyone uses in the real world. i have used it.

>>52636751
A bitcoin transaction takes milliseconds and costs fractions of a cent if using lightning. You are talking about the base settlement layer.

>>52637017
idk in what universe anon.

>>52637025
In the current one we live in? Huh? Go get a lightning wallet and you can send bitcoin near instantly for next to nothing. They are also centralized payment systems like coinbase payments or VISA which do bitcoin as fast as traditional payments but they aren't trustless or censorship resistant, although they allow you to use a currency that isn't continuously devalued.

>>52636893
>Crypto could be adopted globally
You are dreaming about what "could be", I am talking about what is. In the real world, the origin of value for fiat currencies like the USD is the fact that 30% of economic activity must be returned to the government in fiat form. And government spending itself makes up 46% of economic activity. These facts have nothing to do with "MMT", they are simply the reality we live in.

>>52636800
>npc
schizo cope term

>>52636881
>everything in existence was first borne in imagination
take your meds, nutbar

>>52637086
And 100 years ago people transited by horses and long distance communication was done by couriers. Things change, man. And if BTC replace the dollar, you are talking about 1 BTC being equivalent to like $10,000,000 today's dollar of value. Even if bitcoin just rivaled gold as a store of value you're talking close to $1mil BTC. I'm not saying this happens over night or something, but even if it took decades that is massive potential for appreciation.

>>52637158
My point isn't that BTC can't someday acquire fundamental value similar to that held by fiat currencies. It is simply that it doesn't have such fundamental value now. Any conjectures regarding how the future of money will evolve are purely speculative.

>>52637058
it's always super slow and/or super expensive for me.
my bank does it instantly and it costs ~30 cents tho I'm in eurolands.

>>52637231
What is super slow? A LN transaction is literally one party giving a piece of data to the other. It involves no communication with the network. Beyond the physical propagation delay its instantaneous.

>>52637213
> My point isn't that BTC can't someday acquire fundamental value similar to that held by fiat currencies. It is simply that it doesn't have such fundamental value now
It does in El Hopador.

>>52637375
idk what LN transaction is, I paid with btc few times and it was always super fucking slow, last one got stuck so had to use some tricks to up my fee for it to finally gets processed.

>>52637483
All government accounts are still denominated in USD.

>>52637496
Lighting network (LN). Its a trustless payment system that supports bitcoin. Sounds like you're just sending base layer bitcoin transfers. Its not really comparable to a bank transfer. A bank transfer is just your bank adjusting accounts or sending another bank a message, then at a later date they sum up all their transfers and make 1 big settlement payment which may be literally a delivery of reserves by armored car. They 6 conf bitcoin tx that takes 60minutes and a few dollars is comparable to delivering cash by armored car with gaurds. Having an account on a payment system, like LN, and making payments is more similar to making bank transfers or using a debt or credit card. Bitcoin is a currency it can be used in any payment system like VISA too.

>>52634122
> everyone is aware that absolutely everything is a scam even money itself so might as well throw everything at FartCoin 9000
No the fuck they don’t normies believe what their Jewish masters tell them, but the rest of what you’re saying is correct and that’s why this market is going nowhere and why there’s still serious fucking gains to be made compared to boomer stocks.

>>52636597
You are dumb gorilla nigger if you can’t figure out how to turn your crypto into cash and I’m not going to tell you how to hint any (((Feds))) on ways Goyim can sneak their money around without paying kikes.

>>52632994
well, the techs still stand in but yeah I'm majorly in for the money, that's why I still holding and planning to run nodes on Sylo and rocketnodes.

>>52634027
>and you cooperate with others through smart contracts that don't require a government to enforce.
... and that's how Communism will also be made to work.
Stopped reading there. Retard.

>no real world applications aside from paying drug dealers
Oh look, a child with no understanding of the size and scope of the world black market economy. This is bait, right?