/biz/ - Business & Finance

[Anonymous No.50032822]

>you lived just in time for the return of Diocletianic policies

[Anonymous No.50032956]

>>50032822
umm... isn't he the boomer who invented serfdom

[Anonymous No.50033017]

>>50032956
he was also turbopagan who nuked christians from orbit but mysteriously left jews alone

[Anonymous No.50033080]

>>50032956
well I'm specifically referring to payment in kind and price controls (edict on maximum prices)

[Anonymous No.50033724]

>>50032956
In a sense, yes. His policies started with price fixing of grain, which instantly froze up the Roman economy because the dirt doesn't care how much wheat the emperor tells it to grow, and reality is inconvenient. He then made it illegal on pain of death to change your profession to keep everyone from fleeing the growing list of jobs he made impossible to earn a living at. Then he realized that he needed to make it illegal to have a different job than your father since there wouldn't be farmers in a generation or so. His policies were so pants on head retarded, that we can actually plot the decline in Mediterranean shipping based on the number dated ship wrecks during and after his reign.

>>50033017
Much like Nero before him, despite Christianity being a small time religion for poor people and women, he decided that it was the primary reason for economic decline and needed to be eradicated to save his image. One wonders why the much more economically integrated people Hadrian dealt so lovingly with weren't also targeted...

[Anonymous No.50034380]

>>50033724
>His policies were so pants on head retarded
they were based though

[Anonymous No.50036262]

>>50034380
Anon, he only ever had 2 good ideas
1) retire and grow tomatoes on an island
2) Run only 1/4 of the empire

and even with 3/4 of the empire under other "emperors" he managed to catastrophically ruin the economy of not only Rome but its successor states. He bought a piece of Rome 150 more years of degrading twilight at the cost of 1000 or so years of economic stagnation. Wow. Very Based.

[Anonymous No.50037371]

OP btfo

[Anonymous No.50037439]

>>50033724
Sounds like some form of proto-communism.

[Anonymous No.50037673]

>>50033724
>>50036262
For some reason you seem to think he was playing a paradox game or something. He had an empire to fix and he did a good job in all aspects

[Anonymous No.50037945]

>>50037673
If you're going to simp for one of the "restoration" emperors you could at least go for the one that got JFK'd before he could fuck up his own legacy. But you're probably more interested in being a contrarian than historically literate, and too many people like Aurelian for your taste.

As unsustainable as the post-Republic economy was (I.E.: it only works so long as you can keep expanding and winning wars forever) Diocletian's price fixing schemes were ultimately what killed it. Consider that the Roman empire actually did turn a blind eye to most conterfeiting in the later empire simply because it increase liquidity at the fringes of the territory, and any kind of state intervention in markets outside of buying up emergency grain was unheard of. By declaring that all Rome's economic issues were due to "greedy traders" and calling actual market values "price gouging" he forced entire sectors of the economy to operate at a permanent loss, to the point where once free men became state dependent slaves. Which, in a Rome were most of the low level labor was already done by slaves, functioned to wipe out the professional classes in the plebs, and set up a system in which the well off Patrician families of Rome would dominate in perpetuity. He created slaves of free Roman men, then made slaves of their as unborn children.

That is the most anti-roman thing conceivable to someone like Marius or Seneca, but here you are acting like shitting all over the Gens of Rome makes for a good leader. He couldn't have done more to ruin the last ember of the Republic if he personally put out the fires kept by the Patricians.

[Anonymous No.50038206]

>>50037945
Julian was worse. Problems can be fixed eventually if people can educate themselves and think. Julian created a divide between Christians, aka everyone versus Greek philosophy aka all formal human knowledge and tools to think available at the time.

[Anonymous No.50038342]

>>50037673
Protofascism, he saved the state at the expense of the latin culture.

We have to thank this chad for saving the east in it's darkest hour by creating a bimonetary system based on an informal gold standard.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anastasius_I_Dicorus

He basically made gold the currency of the byzantine empire after the fall of the west, but not the official pleb currency.

There was fiat currency and gold currency the gold one was used to pay taxes so the gov could budget on a hard currency, this also allowed the plebs to save money long term restarting the capital accumulation process that had stoped 250 years before him.

His reforms are the needful that current western leaders must do, his bimonetary system of hard currency and fiat living together in harmony was genius.

He also privatized many gov services to reduce corruption, nobody knows about him , he was shadowed by the retard justinian, nobody knows the guys that do the needful, but someone has to do the needful.

[Anonymous No.50038371]

>>50032822
>>50038342
Also op i forgot to tell, you are not in time for diocletian yet, we are in time for the crisis of the third century 2.0

Look at this two links

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crisis_of_the_Third_Century

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5YeEGcrinSM

[Anonymous No.50038793]

>>50037945
The price fixing was a temporary measure until the he could the currency back under control. And it was effective in turning the crisis era empire back to a stable empire

[Anonymous No.50038881]

>>50037945
I'm not expert but I think you say some odds things
>He created slaves of free Roman men
Free Romans were already slaves dependent on state gimmes and patronage from the end of the republic after being forced out of land ownership by patricians employing slaves instead. Something like 50% of free Romans living in Rome during the time of Antoninus were unemployed, whatever else Diocletian did, he in no way was responsible for the state of free citizens in the empire he inherited
>set up a system in which the well off Patrician families of Rome would dominate in perpetuity
By third century patrician is a fairly defunct category, the senatorial class ruled, and even then only 1% of those were truly wealthy and they had already been ruling without conceivable end since before even Caesar
>the fires kept by the Patricians
just lol

[Anonymous No.50038894]

>>50038342
I know about Anathasius. He was also a great emperor. And Justinian could only do his reconquest because of him. His main controbution was the reintroduction of copper currency since Diocletian and Constantine only managed to introduce gold Solidus while attempting to take the old shitty currency out of circulation. What sucks is that soon after Anathasius the empire had to go back to a diocletian esque system under Maurice who had one of the toughest starting positions any emperor could have

[Anonymous No.50038919]

>>50038793
if by stable empire you mean a bureaucracy that does nothing more than enslave it's citzens then yes it was successful.

But you see trade routes disappear, even the armies armor disappeared because the artisans escaped the tax enforcers.

It was probably the time of history that the most know how was lost by humanity as a whole.

There is a reason why most classical era texts survived in the byzantine empire and not in the west.

The capital destruction process that diocletian started was never stoped in the west, in the east it was stoped by anastasius 200 years after.

Most classical works were probably burned for heating in the west since you can't even resell books if fiat evaporates at 3000% per year.

[Anonymous No.50038995]

>>50038894
What most people don't get is that the capital accumulation process is not just about money in fact it's little about money, money is a proxy for energy, periods of capital creation also see demographic booms and tech advances due to people investing in the future.

Justinian wasted it all in retarded military campaigns he should have consolidated the empire not wasting the momentum.

As for the copper thing, basically a bimonetary system is the ultra chad of monetary systems.

Because you can deflate your debts while still operating, this is how countries like argentina evaporate their debt while people hedge with usd.

It's what the usa will need to do with yield curve control now, pray that Bitcoin is saved and supported by people like gensler.

It's going to be the difference between crisis of the third century or Anastasius

[Anonymous No.50039063]

>>50038371
I know about the crisis. The economy shat itself because emperors kept devaluing the currency. The purity was in the 90s under domitian. It gradually decreased to the 70s until Petinax got it back up to 84%. However under Septimius severus the purity would go down to 50% and every emperor after him would keep devaluing the currency until it reached 3% IIRC.

You can't really blame diocletian for introducing a barter economy, paying taxes in kind and setting price controls. So long ss the shitty coinage remained in circuclation any new coins wouldnt be able to have an effect.

[Anonymous No.50039115]

>>50037439
It was literally proto-communism. Same ideal, different names, 1000 years before us.

[Anonymous No.50039153]

>>50038995
>Justinian wasted it all in retarded military campaigns he should have consolidated the empire not wasting the momentum.
Yeah poor Maurice had to deal with it all and it ended up with him being killed because the soldiers were angry about camping out during winter and didnt really think about it being an effective cost cutting method for the empire to get itself out of a hole.

[Anonymous No.50039184]

>>50037945
I'm not a contrarian. For meDiocletian is the most interesting Roman emperor after Augustus.

[Anonymous No.50039198]

>>50039063
Domitan like Anastasius was another chad that did monetary reforms and is barely remembered in history.

>You can't really blame diocletian for introducing a barter economy, paying taxes in kind and setting price controls. So long ss the shitty coinage remained in circuclation any new coins wouldnt be able to have an effect.

Sure i can, look around, how many people want to preserve the state at the expense of the people today?

This type of people that believe the state is above the people exist today in places like pol or leftypol.

Fascist and communist the whole lot of them, wanting a state for the sake of having a state never giving a shit if it's better for the people.

In the crisis of the third century you were more at risk of roman armies than from barbarians, there is a reason why venice exist, people decided to go inawoods and realized inawoods were full already and decided to go inaswamp.

If diocletian would have let the whole thing go to shit by giving independence to regions we would probably be speaking latin here.

Greek survived, Latin did not, Diocletian is the cause of that, latin died because diocletian saved the state but not the people.

The entire third century crisis is leeches trying to gain power over a leeching government to be able to leech more to those that produce stuff.

We are sadly going to see this very soon probably in the eu and eurasia in general next year.

[Anonymous No.50039237]

>>50039153
We are in the current situation,europe never recovered from ww2 demographic collapse, hence why there is so many bond money magic going on there and why the euro crisis is being exported worldwide.

It's also why eurofags keep exporting social democrat anti civilizational ideas, their bullshit policies would not work if the serfs can move to other places.

[Anonymous No.50039259]

>>50038919
I agree that there were some negative consequences but what else could have been done? Without the barter system how could the people in the empire afford even basic neccessities let alone luxury goods. Payment in kind also necessary to get useful taxes. Also Diocletian was mostly focused on the east since thats where he stationed himself

[Anonymous No.50039296]

>>50039198
>why venice exist, people decided to go inawoods and realized inawoods were full already and decided to go inaswamp.
Venice was formed after Aquileia was sacked by Attila
>If diocletian would have let the whole thing go to shit by giving independence to regions we would probably be speaking latin here
That sounds like suicide for a roman emperor

[Anonymous No.50039323]

>>50039259
The empire was the problem, it was so corrupt it was worse than a barbarian army occupying you.

There is a reason why people went to live in a swamp in today venice.

It could have survived but welfare states and progressive taxation is not compatible with collapsing demographics(which started to happen hard during Antoninus Pius).

Basically with progressive taxes if the economy stops the tax gains stop with the economy, so it can't stop even for a pandemic, worse the bureaucracies never go down in size with the demographic going down.

This happened many times in history but diocletian is interesting because never ever ever in history someone was suicidal enough to crush it's own people with taxes and regulations so much you lost centuries of knowledge.

I mean the chinese were still doing shit like silk in the middle ages, europe lost most of it's knowledge and did not recovered it until the renaissance.

The dome in florence took 150 years to build because nobody knew how to do it, they started to do it as a way of saying "fuck it let's find out how our ancesotrs did it through brute force".

Also it's insane how much information, works of philosophers and history survived on the east and how little on the west.

[Anonymous No.50039338]

>>50032822
Or, we could kick all the kikes out of our country, close our borders and we will fix ourselves. I am tired of people pretending to be educated about history doing the same exact thing that got EVERY nation on record in to trouble
>letting jews in to your government and see your native people and prosperity dissolved
You gloss over it here, but nobody SERIOUSLY argues against the idea. 114 countries and counting.

[Anonymous No.50039355]

>>50039338
>You gloss over it here
>>50033724
>Much like Nero before him, despite Christianity being a small time religion for poor people and women, he decided that it was the primary reason for economic decline and needed to be eradicated to save his image. One wonders why the much more economically integrated people Hadrian dealt so lovingly with weren't also targeted...

[Anonymous No.50039398]

>>50039296
>Venice was formed after Aquileia was sacked by Attila

It started before that time was when some richfags arrived, the whole area was full of people moving obviously as it's clear due to their smart diplo in early history they had smart people and some independnece.

There are stories even before the crisis of the third century with caracalla time of people going inawoods already that's 150+ years before the sacking of aquileia.

>That sounds like suicide for a roman emperor

it would be yes, the thing is that all of this guys were fucked up in the head, they were trying to preserve something perverse due to their own fathers and grandfathers being part of the bureaucratic machinery.

They were incredibly disconnected of the roman people because they were the priviliged bureaucratic class defended by the state.

Not much different than today government workers retiring at 50 in many places while governments raise retirement ages for wagies.

Just add it for 5 or 7 generations and you end with people like diocletian.

Only time the old fuck went to rome he was horrorized at how decadent it was.

No shit fucker, the roman armies were litearlly sacking it more than barbarians ever could

[Anonymous No.50039476]

>>50038995
It can all be reduced to the pressures between benefits of uplifting the plebs and the destabilizing / world ending effect it tends to have. The ironic thing is the commies love these ideas purely meant to entrench social classes, to serve the already rich.
The actual end result of the process of economic growth is a dominant pleb merchant class that doesn't care about Rome or any of the principles that originally brought the benefits they're exploiting.
The uplifted Latins through being blessed by Rome with education at the end of a sword caused the series of civil wars that made Caesar where Rome shifted every few decades between uplifting plebs and executing them. The uplifted mercenary tribes from the north eventually took Rome.

[Anonymous No.50039551]

>>50039398
Diocletian started of as an obscure Illyrian officer. He and the other Illyrians only rose to the positions they did because of the crisis when Valerian and Gallienus recruited them to their banners

[Anonymous No.50039584]

>>50039476
>The actual end result of the process of economic growth is a dominant pleb merchant class that doesn't care about Rome or any of the principles that originally brought the benefits they're exploiting.

The pleb merchant class were the conscript class that moved rome in it's ascent, the end of conscription and extension of citzenship to everyone was done by the political class to gain more taxcucks.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitutio_Antoniniana

>The edict widened the obligation for public service and gave increased revenue through the inheritance and emancipation taxes that only had to be paid by Roman citizens

>Before 212, the majority of Roman citizens had been inhabitants of Roman Italia, with about 4–7% of all peoples in the Roman Empire being Roman citizens at the time of the death of Augustus in AD 14. Outside Rome, citizenship was restricted to Roman coloniae

[Anonymous No.50039622]

>>50039551
yea shit was already fucked up before diocletian, i only hate the fuck out of him because nobody else in history pushed so much state repression by the state to the productive class to the point you lost centuries of knowledge.

It's out of this level, china had periods of mass cannibalism yet they never lost knowledge like silk making.

Yet thanks to diocletian even the information on how to make concrete was lost.

[Anonymous No.50039679]

>>50039622
Brah the late Han emperors literally destroyed their economies with their autistic policies.

[Anonymous No.50039698]

>>50038793
If price controls work then why aren’t they always in place? Arguing for price floors or maximum prices means you don’t understand the supply demand curve, basic econ 101 concepts

[Anonymous No.50039752]

>>50039698
Price controls are a populist policy to buy time from the angry mob. Whether or not they use that time properly is a different story.

[Anonymous No.50039784]

>>50039679
Yes but not to the point you lost knowledge, Diocletian was next level psycho, he actually loved rome but he loved the roman state not the roman people.

That was why he was so insane he was pasionately insane he saved the roman state and killed the roman people and latin language.

[Anonymous No.50039821]

>>50039784
Knowledge was absolutely lost. That part of the world stagnated after the Han collapse until the Tang. The period between Han and Tang is overly romanticized because of the 3 Kingdoms fictional literature.

[Anonymous No.50039836]

>>50039622
>Yet thanks to diocletian even the information on how to make concrete was lost.
I think you're reaching here to blame diocletian for losing knowledge.

[Anonymous No.50039960]

>>50039821
i doubt it was "that lost" i mean the silkroad being so big during the middle ages mean china was still exporting stuff.

The west got absolutely and colossally rekt.

The reason why shit took so big afterwards is because the mentality of let's find out how things were done with brute force became very common in european culture.

And china was doing shit like the ming treasure voyages at the same time spain was starting to end the reconquista.

So they never lost that much knowledge.

>>50039836
90% of knowledge of greek and roman times we have was saved in the eastern empire, which was not exactly the richest part but more of a commodity exporter to rome.

It survived because people like anastasius saved the capital accumulation process in the east and then it moved to the west again after the fall of constantinople 1000 years after.

Those 1000 years are 1000 years of darkness in the west thanks to diocletian and 1000 years of relative stability in the east thanks to anastasius.

If justinian would not have wasted all the momentum in retarded campaigns it would have lasted even longer.

[Anonymous No.50039969]

>>50039698
They sort of are. Many things would be a lot more expensive if all price control policies were canned

[Anonymous No.50039975]

>>50039960
>And china was doing shit like the ming treasure voyages at the same time spain was *starting to end the reconquista.

*ending

[Anonymous No.50040014]

>>50039960
>Those 1000 years are 1000 years of darkness in the west thanks to diocletian and 1000 years of relative stability in the east thanks to anastasius
Like I sadi you're reaching here. Emperors after diocletian didnt follow his policies blindly. They followed him in some aspects but ignored him on others. His longest lasting reforms were his military reforms.

[Anonymous No.50040122]

>>50039584
>the pleb merchant class were the conscript class that moved rome in it's ascent
They only started accepting Latin conscripts after they lost all their golden boys to the Gauls. It was a big deal. The idea of Rome makes more sense to me if the military is kept purely Roman and the conservatives agreed. Anything else would be a disaster so only a disaster could force their hands to do it.
Within a relatively free market as random subjects grow in competence and understanding of the dominant culture they can use the economic growth to seize real political power. It's the reason Marius could do what he did and the reason the conservatives were so afraid of Caesar, they were going to execute him when he was still a child because he was in a position to become a threat like Marius through appealing to the wider population.

[Anonymous No.50040129]

>>50040014
The damage was done, like Nixon ending bretton woods leading to the deindustrializing of the western world by creating the infaltion exporting & deflation importing system

[Anonymous No.50040183]

>>50039969
We as a society are doomed if people can make posts this idiotic

[Anonymous No.50040443]

>>50038881
>Something like 50% of free Romans living in Rome during the time of Antoninus were unemployed
What did unemployed romans do all day?

[Anonymous No.50040568]

>>50040443
Fornicate, chill in the baths, watch cock fights, mock Hebrews, you know just people enjoying life moment by moment.

[Anonymous No.50040670]

>>50040443
Gangster shit. To become the main gangleader you dress up as a lady and go to a religious thing for ladies only where you try to fuck Caesar's wife.
https://youtu.be/1plPyJdXKIY

[Anonymous No.50040796]

>>50033017
>>50033724
Lets set the record straight here
>Christians and Jews
First christians were jews, and at his time definitely the large majority were ehtnic jews. "Turbopagan" Rome wiped the kingdom of israel off the map, all the while killing and plundering. This fact seems to be glossed over by christcucks. They focus on mmmuh persecushuns, remember the 6 gorillion Nero killed, literally the antichrist. 616.
>Jews
Got their stranglehold on Europe after christian emperors enabled and protected them, for millennia.
>>50039960
>Those 1000 years are 1000 years of darkness in the west thanks to diocletian
It has nothing to do with the Judaism-lite taking a stranglehold on the state. Nope. Keep blaming Diocletian.