/biz/ - Business & Finance

[Anonymous No.49893731]

>software engineer
>one of the most "in-demand" fields on planet Earth
>5 years of experience in enterprise software development
>apply to a new job
>have to solve some inane hackerrank puzzle which is more like a trivia computer science question than actual real world software development
>probably requires you to study and practice at least a few months

why is this normal in the SE job market?

[Anonymous No.49893771]

Because hr women needs something to do just walk out of interviews like that

[Anonymous No.49893800]

>>49893771
Maybe we should just become the HR women, it sounds like a laugh

[Anonymous No.49893829]

>>49893731
maybe you're qualified for your job but there is also a million retards trying to fake it or being simply too dumb

I'm also pissed at job interviews but ultimately it's just a few weeks every time so whatever

[Anonymous No.49893954]

>>49893731
I applied for a quantitative analyst position in banking, 15 hours of interviews with technical questions (C++, maths,...) and 4 hours of programming test. Passed it, was hired.
Life is not that difficult, you cunt.

[Anonymous No.49893973]

>>49893731
To weed out the fucking idiots that can’t even do a HackerRank problem, that’s the necessary screening processing for having a billion pajeets that have CS degrees but are still utter shit
It sucks, but that’s why you need to start looking for jobs 6+ months before you’re planning on quitting
That being said, once you get “experienced” enough and get a network, you’ll be able to get recommended to jobs by members of the team, and you’ll skip the HackerRank and, sometimes, the technical interview section of the interview

[Anonymous No.49894244]

you get to make $400k a year if you can hackerrank.

Few months of pain == retire early.
Why wouldn't you do it you lazy fuck OP.

[Anonymous No.49894277]

>>49894244
what?

[Anonymous No.49894442]

Reminds me of grade school.
Guy comes up to me in home room and says can you multiply these two four-digit numbers in your head?
Flounder.
A year later at a different school my gym teacher asks the same thing.
Of course, I had thought about how to do it, so it was easy.
>I remember 40 years ago, people graduating and telling me “this interview they actually asked a programming question (freshman level)”

[Anonymous No.49894446]

>>49894277

There are 200 Leetcode problems. It takes on average 30 mins to prepare for each problem.

200 * 30 = 6000/60 = 100 hours. of prep.

And you can't really focus for more than 2 hours a day and that will take you a minimum of 3 months to prep.

After that you get offers that pay you $400k per year.

[Anonymous No.49894453]

>>49893731
None of the software engineers that I work with ever do any coding. And why should they? I'm an engineer who isn't allowed to touch a CNC machine, so why would software engineers be "on the tools" coding rather than doing their actual job of engineering software?

[Anonymous No.49894471]

>>49893731
>inane
Those are great questions. I got filtered by it, which means I'm just not smart enough. Why are you people incapable of taking responsibility for your own shortcomings?

[Anonymous No.49894482]

>>49893771
this

>HR makes applicants do days of free work just for a crumb of a chance to get the job
>automatically sifts out the people who have a backbone
>automatically sifts out the people who aren't desperate for a job
>automatically sifts out the people who know they're far too valuable to do that shit
>HR knows the remaining applicants are desperate and more likely to stay there long term

[Anonymous No.49894488]

>>49894446
no shit?

[Anonymous No.49894617]

>>49893954
>Life is not that difficult, bro. Just...
>99th percentile IQ at least
>99th percentile conscientiousness
>99.999th percentile genetics
>Learn to code in C++, C, Python, R, at least know Linux, Bash, SQL, have a deep understanding of statistics/mathematics, data science, databases, cybersecurity, extensive publishing background with top tier h-index, on editorial boards.
>4 years of ass kissing degree minimum, PhD preferable
>5+ years of ass kissing employment AT LEAST.
>Extensive interviewing competing against 500 other potential candidates which - by probability of the bell curve - will possess one member more capable than you in every previously mentioned dimension.
>Compete with affirmative action
>Deep connections, friends with employer, nepotism etc required.
>Salary: Competitive.
Yeah, you're right, life is so easy.

[Anonymous No.49894742]

>>49893731
I agree, most programmer jobs have insane requirements while the reasonable ones have like 100+ applicants, job interviews are the hardest part when you get to the job itself it's easy.

[Anonymous No.49894855]

>>49894617
holy fuck nigga just run through the odin project, make a CRUD app, and be white

[Anonymous No.49894944]

Software Engineers are the most overrated on planet earth. I do IT for these retards and they call helpdesk because they can't figure out how to add Python to PATH. They say "let's not reinvent the wheel" and import a 200 MB library to use a fucking string formatter. They seem totally flabbergasted to find out an average IQ IT guy has made a VR game with 30k lines of code, along with a bunch of other passion projects for web, desktop, and embedded and a huge library of IT tools and automation. And then they cry and complain when someone asks them to prove that they can code because they made them do a problem, about what? Oh I had to try to make a bubble sort list or monkey patch something, it's sooooooo hard bros whaaa, I want my 120k it hurted my peanut brain whaa.

[Anonymous No.49894981]

>>49894446
> 200 questions
Maybe 10 years ago

[Anonymous No.49895050]

>>49894944
you should be able to easily get a $150k swe job without hackerrank/leetcode.
but you need 8+ years of experience.
lower the years the more leetcode hackerrank bullshit.
but at 8+ years you'll interview with a burnt out software architect and a senior engineer with 20 years who thinks using spring annotations makes you a proficient developer.
really those early years you just have to accept more or less nothing you do matters.

[Anonymous No.49895085]

>>49893731
Market is saturated, deal with it. The easy days are over. I've seen inept "experienced" boomers get fired because competent millennials are flooding the market.

[Anonymous No.49895232]

>>49894453
What? Engineering software requires coding. Nobody hires a software engineer to make flow charts and hand them off to coders.

[Anonymous No.49895362]

>>49894981
how many do you have to complete to get a good code monkey job?

[Anonymous No.49895413]

They're just a simple screener to make sure you're actually serious. They're not hard to get good at, like one week of practice 1 hour per day on hackerrank or leetcode.

[Anonymous No.49895420]

i once made a website in dreamweaver. If i applied for a job, i'd make 100K+ easily.

[Anonymous No.49895438]

What if you have 0 experience besides freelance web3 projects but still graduated in IT…. Still can’t find a job

[Anonymous No.49895456]

>>49894446
>After that you get offers that pay you $400k per year.
Where the fuck does coding problems get you $400k? I'm an L4 at Google making $260k. Thought $400k was for people who study system design and get an L6 or strong L5 offer.

[Anonymous No.49895496]

>>49893731
>>49894617
Lmao wtf is this
>why yes mr shekelberg! I love playing the flute while juggling and running from a lion.
>shall i light myself onnfire as well sir?
>ha anon! You can't do all that while sucking cock?! It's like you don't even try! Maybe boomers were right.
Y'all must be swedes or krauts.

[Anonymous No.49895509]

I prefer the IQ style tests as they filter out retards as opposed to the normal way of interviewing (“give us a time where you had a disagreement with a coworker…”) or the famous “where do you see yourself in 5 years?” which filters out spergs.

I get filtered hard by that shit because I’m autistic. I remember my first interview out of college, they asked me that shit and I thought being honest was good so I said “I don’t know” and the room full of people started laughing.

[Anonymous No.49895658]

>>49893954
>proud about dancing for a job
>not realizing one single fails means you wasted nearly a days time for nothing
Lol and you probably mock walmart wagies too thinking ur superior

[Anonymous No.49895763]

>>49895456
Yeah this shit is fake. Top tier anywhere outside of New York and Cali is about 200. The higher are top tier in those areas.

I think people also use "total comp" literally including the value of their health insurance and what they hope stock is worth.

[Anonymous No.49895816]

ok so I nearly have a cs degree but I haven’t practiced leetcode and I’m a shit coder. Im thinking about doing some projects (cloning popular apps/sites from scratch) and doing LC on the side. Should I just focus on learning2code first ignore leetcode grind for now until I get 1 year of experience? Im probably not cut out for big tech yet.

[Anonymous No.49895835]

>>49895456
he's talking total comp, not cash.
I think you're also speaking total comp, but you're only an L4 and at average pricing.
a 400k TC is not unbelievable, he'd just be an L5 with probably 10 years experience outside google.

[Anonymous No.49896059]

>>49895816
you are best investing your time grinding leetcode problems.
mainly because early on in your career you have to deal with that shit very frequently in all interviews because you don't have experience with the rest of the software lifecycle/architecture, just coding.
10 years later though, unless you want to work at Albertsons or any other FAANG company, leetcode doesn't come up at all, just CS 101 can you demonstrate slightly more knowledgeable then hello world.
anyways, it gets much easier but grind leetcode for your first couple jobs.

[Anonymous No.49896154]

>>49896059
I’ll probably start applying to local Fortune 500 companies, and they don’t go too hard on the LC questions. Its usually fizzbuzz or some LC easy. I live in the Midwest so the standards are pretty low.

[Anonymous No.49896209]

>>49896154
exactly. the pay will be way less, but no one will really expect anything from you at a $70k salary, even upto $120k.
not a salary people like to brag about, but they afford you a much better WLB.

[Anonymous No.49896257]

>>49894944
>It's ok that they get paid 3x what I do cause I'm smarter than them!!!

[Anonymous No.49896266]

>>49894617
none of this is needed. My most successful friends just had dad's golf friends get them in for 50% extra pay

[Anonymous No.49896350]

>>49896209
I’d rather make more money lol, but I slacked off and that’s not an option right now. The only upside for my current situation is that I don’t have any student debt and I’ll probably be living at home while I’m at my first job, so I can theoretically save 50-60% of my wage.

[Anonymous No.49896456]

>>49896257
That's not really anything I said in my post. I'm saying they shouldn't complain about being filtered by technical tests, in fact they need to filter them 100x harder because the retards are still getting through en masse.

[Anonymous No.49896506]

>>49896456
respectfully, I'd say you're just overqualified for your role and not being challenged.

[Anonymous No.49896736]

>>49895456
Google underpays because people will apply and keep working there even when there are better-paying opportunities around. Also the longer you stay in their super-proprietary dev tooling environment the less employable you become anywhere else.

[Anonymous No.49896849]

>>49896736
your skills will ironically decline/deteriorate.
but i've seen people make fake resumes with google on it, gets straight through HR even if they put a bunch of porn star names as technologies they've worked with.

[Anonymous No.49897640]

>>49896849
What good does that do you when you're never going to apply externally? I sure hope you aren't a lifer. Anyone who stays at Google, Microsoft, or Apple longer than a few years is doing their TC a disservice.

[Anonymous No.49897760]

>>49893731
because if you don't know computer science you're not a real programmer, retard

[Anonymous No.49898513]

>>49897640
>Anyone who stays at Google, Microsoft, or Apple longer than a few years is doing their TC a disservice.
Don't disagree.

[Anonymous No.49898594]

>>49898513
If I had the energy I'd have tried to hop jobs but desu I'm barely keeping on where I'm at. Probably chronic illness, idk, just feel more and more exhausted every year and doctors only tell me I'm imagining it.

[Anonymous No.49898628]

>>49898594
But I probably need to dust off my resume anyway because I think my current team noticed I'm a low performer and I'm on the path to PIP. So fucking tired though.

[Anonymous No.49898726]

>>49898594
Is your job getting harder or are you just feeling tired despite your workload? I feel like a change of scenery would probably help, but that means a few months of prep depending on how comfortable you are at interviewing. You’ve done it once to get into google so you can probably do it again at any other company.

[Anonymous No.49898787]

>>49894482
so lie

[Anonymous No.49899074]

Where is a good place to start learning coding?

[Anonymous No.49899133]

>>49899074
A university because that’s the only way you get into these companies

[Anonymous No.49899754]

>>49899074
udemy, some wordpress course

[Anonymous No.49900110]

>>49899133
Any fully remote colleges out there? I've been doing Harvard's cs50 but nothing last there really

[Anonymous No.49900233]

>>49900110
>Any fully remote colleges out there?
Tons, but if cs50 isn't sticking going to a 4 year school online isn't going to work for you. Go to CC, finish your math/humanities/etc, transfer to 4 year school, get a cheap BS.

[Anonymous No.49900349]

>>49898594
Can you afford to take an unpaid leave of absence? Taking a few months off all at once can really help with reducing stress.

[Anonymous No.49900498]

>>49900233
Meant to say "past there".
I loved cs50 it taught me so much. I need to make sure I keep going in learning though or it won't stick

[Anonymous No.49900814]

>>49900110
you gotta push way past cs50
its not easy
id say mix in hacker rank with personal projects
while ive never been employed that was by choice, i did miss out on plenty of jobs because of my inability on code tests
my stanford masters gets me in the door, the stupid code trivia problems that are unrelated to job skills are not a meme
but now i use leetcode to practice (leetcode is the best free practice imo)
and ive been killing my code tests lately
will likely get a $150k job offer in finance in NYC soon,
also looking around for $120k remote roles at lesser companies.

[Anonymous No.49901441]

serious question
why don't any of you consider the medfag route? docs routinely make 400-600,000. for a halfway intelligent person it's pretty routine work. why waste your brain energy for 150-250,000?

[Anonymous No.49901671]

>>49899074
Do you just want to learn to code or do you want to engineer software.

If you just want to learn to code for miney someplace in inidia and expect to get paid less than half what you think you will.

If tou want to code for shits and giggles udemy, there is also free mit, standford courses.

If you want to engineer software find theory over syntax. When interviewing i use psuedocode and discuss automating baggage handling at an airport. This way they cant rely on a particular language and i can see how they solve problems and consider failure and pain points.

[Anonymous No.49901784]

>>49893731
Fields that are actually "in-demand" don't require you to do stupid shit like that, all you need is the degree and you're in (medical doctors etc). The fact that they can make their applicants jump through all kinds of retarded hoops shows there's hundreds or thousands of applicants tp choose from for every open position.

[Anonymous No.49901953]

>eughaugh how do we iq test applicants without iq testing them
idk, why are manhole covers round you gook ricenigger bitch

[Anonymous No.49901957]

>>49901784
Even ignoring the fact that you’re using a legalized cartel as your example, med school degrees means absolute shit unless you’ve passed your boards
Guess what the boards are

[Anonymous No.49902116]

>>49893731
When companies give you questions like that, it means the company has a lot of applicants and they need some way to filter them.
If the company is small and has trouble finding people, they will make it easy for you to get in.

[Anonymous No.49902216]

>>49901957
>Guess what the boards are

Literally part of the degree so your argument makes no sense

[Anonymous No.49902377]

>>49901441
From what I've heard it takes a long time of studying and interning until you start to see huge paychecks and biz is pretty impatient, I.e. look at all the "what's the next 1000x coin?" threads last bullrun.
It's also a pretty "customer facing" job for lack of a better term and I don't need to explain to you why that scares people here

[Anonymous No.49902500]

>>49902377
>customer facing
That's why anesthesiologists have the best job.
>hi there
>ok try to count to three for me, go
>"1, 2-..." *snooze*
>ok surgeons have fun, I'll be playing candy crush over here

[Anonymous No.49902554]

I never did any of that. Just had some articles on my website, some school projects in github, and a java app parsing some json api (since link hadn't been invented yet). Talked about some projects at school and that was that. I think the leetcode experience is only true at the FAGMAN slave driver corporations.
Now I make 150k including stocks doing software test and meme as a security engineer at the same company.
Been here 8 years and at this point have no idea if I'm overpaid, underpaid, overperforming, or underperforming. Half the time I'm humbled by my coworkers the other half I'm dumbfounded by their incompetence. I've even fixed some bugs myself (but don't commit it) to see if the how much of a lazy retard the actual swe is.
Leaning towards underpaid but I think I'll just phone it in and work on other income streams.

[Anonymous No.49902608]

>>49893731
They want you to prove you can jump through hoops. It's not a matter of you knowing how to solve those problems regularly. It's seeing that you took the effort to train for the position.
Also the people that set up these interviews are usually non technical managers. The interview is administered by technical people but written by non technicals.

[Anonymous No.49902615]

>>49902554
you are paid properly, if you aspired to get better with algorithms and expand yourself you could make more
but your current pay sounds fair, also if you didn't go to a target school thatll still hurt you 8 years into a job

[Anonymous No.49902862]

>>49902377
>"customer facing"

Honestly most tech jobs are pretty "customer facing" as well, you basically have to know how to deal with tech AND people. If you want to make any actual money from software engineering you're going to have to sell your product/work to someone which necessarily requires you to be constantly dealing with customers/companies. It's not like you can sit in your basement, just code and expect money to just magically appear in front of you for it.

[Anonymous No.49903141]

>>49894446
openai can write better code than you and must faster. what the fuck are you useful for, now? i was building websites using it last night.

[Anonymous No.49903458]

>>49893731
I often have a LeetCode problem in my back pocket to give to the engineer interviewing me to work on while I work on the one they give me.

You should see the look on their fucking faces

[Anonymous No.49903593]

>>49903458
SO FUCKING BASED

[Anonymous No.49903816]

>>49894446
That's just for problem section of the tech interview.
You still need a technical degree.
The problems take 60 minutes sometimes longer for the trickier ones. And you need prior coding experience to take them on
if you started at google you'd be geting $180k total comp, not $400 for a newbie.
>>49903141
copilot is good for really simple tasks (that wouldn't have taken long anyway) but it's useless for design. you'd know that if you were doing anything more than a hello world app.

[Anonymous No.49903860]

i have about 900 leetcode done, but outside the USA they don't seem to be super popular i have noticed. i am in europe and some companies seem to love homework problems and those are shit too in their own way

[Anonymous No.49904301]

is it really this hard to get into *web dev* or *security/devops* as opposed to SWE?

[Anonymous No.49904474]

Lads I'm 38 years old and curious about pivoting into a tech job. I grew up coding text adventures in QBASIC for shits and giggles and did a year of Java in college for the easy A's but nothing beyond that. Realistically l could I make the switch at this point in my life or will I be passed over for hires 20 years younger at every turn?

[Anonymous No.49904555]

>>49893731
I've noticed the worst jobs have the most insane interviews. It's because the managers are clueless and looked up how Google interviews so copied that.

I went to one job interview where they wanted me to do algorithm analysis and find the time complexity and space complexity of their API...for a fucking real estate website.

Then I interviewed for a better job in banking, which I cruised straight through and took that job.

[Anonymous No.49904637]

>>49894617
yes, it is
>trying to be something you're not
no wonder you're having such a hard fucking time.

[Anonymous No.49904887]

>>49893731
Because much of dev work is solving problem, often they are easy problems but when they aren't they need to know you aren't useless

[Anonymous No.49905580]

>>49904474
pls respond

[Anonymous No.49905748]

>>49901441
>commit 12+ years of your life to schooling
>dead ass broke the entire time
>graduate with an absurd amount of debt
>pay a fuck ton for insurance
>high stress if trash hospital (a lot them are)

Someone did the math, it's literally more profitable in the first 20 years of your career to be a Registered Nurse than it is to be a doctor. If you go the doctor route, there's no turning back, no changing your mind, ever. Hope to god some crazy ass patient doesn't find a way to sue you.

[Anonymous No.49905930]

>>49905580
what did you do before wizardkun

[Anonymous No.49906086]

>>49896059
>Albertson’s
My favorite TeamBlind dogwhistle

[Anonymous No.49906134]

>>49903141
lol no, the backend and embedded shit STILL needs to be done by competent to wizard tier programmers.
This is why the "y not use pythin BUT for embedded!!!!" has failed because it turns out soigrammers cant do shit other than copy paste.

[Anonymous No.49906145]

>>49904474
38 is too old for tech. Everyone on my team is early to mid 20s. By early 30s most people are already churned out or transitioned to management.

Tech is insanely competitive. At 38 your brain isn't sharp enough to compete anymore. People on my time regularly work 80 hour weeks during crunch without breaking a sweat. Easy at 23 but hard at 38.

[Anonymous No.49906153]

>>49896266
Not everyone has Bar Mitzvah connections, Shlomo

[Anonymous No.49906164]

>>49903141
Lol you never deal with clients, do you anon?

[Anonymous No.49906210]

>>49893731
Yep that's why Boeing hired Indian software engineers and 2 planes nose dived out of the sky. Oops

[Anonymous No.49906320]

>>49906145
Maybe for SWE FAANG jobs, but you sound like you live in a bubble - and no one should want to at FAANG unless they like sucking cock and getting fucked in the ass.
>the average age of Cyber Security Specialists is 40+ years old, which represents 58% of the population.

[Anonymous No.49906416]

>>49906320
Yes, I meant for the top end of tech that 38 is too old. Top end is all that matters because if you're going to be on the low end of tech then you might as well do something you like instead because the pay isn't even amazing there. Even in low end tech there will be ageism and this guy will have hard time getting hired at 40+. Tech is not kind to old people which is why salaries are so good. You need to start early and get rich fast.

[Anonymous No.49906553]

>>49906145
Where do you work that 80 hours is normal during crunch? Are you in the gaming industry?

[Anonymous No.49906629]

>>49905930
Lots of things. I worked in auto parts, had a small business that produced commercials for local businesses, taught English overseas, was an AutoCAD drafter, and for the last few years have been a day trader. Just always was curious about rekindling my childhood infatuation with programming and actually making a living with it.

[Anonymous No.49906644]

>>49906416
I'm sorry if you went into a field you hate for money, but I wouldn't be considering this if I didn't like it

There are a lot of roles for people in tech, even 40+, that focus more on soft skills as well; That being said, $80-$100k+ for cyber sec or cloud related work is totally fine unless you're living in some freak show city, my plan is to get into cloud/dev op/security and work remotely in a nice quaint mid sized(or even smaller) town.

[Anonymous No.49906680]

>>49894617
You are too lazy for tech my dude, sorry. You sound just like boomers that whine endlessly every time they are asked to learn a new framework.

[Anonymous No.49906697]

>>49893731
>27 years old
>wanted to start a web dev bootcamp that seems pretty good
>talked to a bunch of alumni on linkedin, all of them recommended it
>read this thread
>totally demoralised
Holy fuck I just wanted a comfy code monkey job so I can stop living with my mom. Why is everything so complicated?

[Anonymous No.49906760]

>>49906697
Don't take the lukewarm - negative energy here to heart, it's confirmation bias from miserable people most of the time(though soemtimes we have gems come by with positive energy, there have been two tech communities spawned off anon posts here that have gone on to incubate successful devs in security and web3).

Join The Odin Project discord server and read the success stories, talk to people there - this isn't the place to come for encouragement considering most people are lying and the rest are just completely demoralized and their only outlet is trying to demoralize you too.

[Anonymous No.49906821]

>>49906697
Why would you become demoralized after reading posts from worthless incels that never have and never will accomplish anything? You should feel inspired that you are so much better than they are.

[Anonymous No.49906834]

>>49906760
Morals restored. God bless you anon.
I will leave this thread now before I get contaminated with more misery.
Farewell.

[Anonymous No.49906863]

>>49906760
Thanks for this post, I'm the 38 y/o anon and wanted to hear something positive.

[Anonymous No.49907017]

>>49906697
SWE is different than web dev. All you need is a portfolio showing you know how to make sites and have front and backend knowledge.
And don't put shit like this on your cv site

[Anonymous No.49907045]

>>49894617
>His face when he realizes that all of this just boils down to "Don't be a third worlder"
>Turns out that he is, hence the butthurt