USD stupid tax question threads

[Anonymous No.4971026]

it's getting to be that time of year, and I'm bored at work, so I'll be answering tax questions for USA folks who plan on reporting their gains or losses. sorry, I don't have time to reply to libertarians and fudders, serious questions only.

first off, it's still up for interpretation, but the MOST LIKELY INTERPRETATION will be all trades (coin to coin and cashing out) are taxable events. you also need to calculate USD values for all trades in a consistent manner per the IRS guidance.
https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-drop/n-14-21.pdf

2nd off, yes, it sounds daunting because it is. hopefully next year they will exclude reporting of transactions less than $600 in value. you can also use services like bitcoin.tax or hire a CPA instead of just complaining about it. if you plan on doing it yourself, you'll need accounting software to organize all the sales in FIFO.

they will also likely give tax payers the opportunity to file amended returns for past years without going to jail if you didn't report your gains previously, but they haven't stated that yet (and might not either).

fire away.

[Anonymous No.4971125]

>>4971026

if I take a lump sum payoff from a pension and have the taxes deducted at the time of issuance can I file it for a return like regular taxes on 1040?

[Anonymous No.4971171]

>>4971026
>all trades (coin to coin and cashing out) are taxable events. you also need to calculate USD values for all trades in a consistent manner per the IRS guidance

This is a fucking nightmare are you joking

[Anonymous No.4971192]

Fly to europe and use a bicoin atm to withdraw your money

[Anonymous No.4971222]

Lets say I'd put $1000 on BTC today.
Tomorrow it will be worth $2000 and I sell them. The day after I buy ETH with the 2k and shortly after ETH drops 75%.
I now have $500 left.

Does the Taxmaster still want money from me because I made money on my BTC trade?

[Anonymous No.4971225]

I own a business... I go on a business trip and eat on the trip. (no other guest/business partner with me or client) can I still expense those meals?

thanks anon

[Anonymous No.4971229]

>open to interpretation
>IRS wonders why no one pays their taxes

[Anonymous No.4971239]

>>4971125
sorry I only know about crypto tax stuff. I'm one of the 800 people who has been reporting since 2013.

>>4971171
not joking, if you are a high volume trader, automation is kind of a necessity. some people are going to try to do 1031 like kind exchanges to avoid owing tax on coin to coin trades (they would still have to report them all though), but congress is amending like kind exchanges to only apply to real estate.

[Anonymous No.4971268]

There is no suitable purchase to this sale (all purchasing pools consumed). Assuming purchase on the same day for 0 EUR.


What the fuck does this mean on Cointracking?

Also if I cash out a portion of my stack to pay for taxes owed this year wouldn't that just create a new taxable event infinite loop of money owed?

[Anonymous No.4971292]

>>4971222
no your capital losses will offset any gains in the same tax year, so you'd have a $1000 gain followed by a $1500 loss (assuming you sold they ETH at that point), and could claim a $500 capital loss.

[Anonymous No.4971297]

i bought shit on coinbase and have been hodling since. do i need to pay taxes?

[Anonymous No.4971313]

>>4971297

No. Taxable event is created if you trade from crypto to crypto to cash out. If you just buy ETH on Coinbase and let it sit there you're fine.

[Anonymous No.4971326]

>>4971026
Okay OP, I have a question I've been trying to figure out:

Basically, is there only one FIFO queue for one's entire portfolio, across all exchanges, or is a new FIFO queue created on each exchange?

So if I have a bunch of old Bitcoins I bought for dirt cheap on Coinbase, then I take one and start trading it back and forth on Bittrex, does FIFO only trigger once on Coinbase and then now creates a new queue on Bittrex or does it keep necro-ing my old coins on Coinbase even though i am really trading the same Bitcoin back and forth on bittrex and only touched my old stash once?

Thanks.

[Anonymous No.4971327]

quads kill the taxmaster

[Anonymous No.4971352]

>>4971229
they will likely crisp up all the rules this year and there won't be any interpretation in 2018.

>>4971268
sounds like you didn't give them complete records or had inaccuracies and you are trying to sell more coins than you bought, so they can't match a buy lot with the sell lot

[Anonymous No.4971372]

>>4971171
How could the IRS ever find or proove shitcoin to shitcoin trades?

[Anonymous No.4971392]

Ok serious question. Been trading since '14. Never paid taxes. Have literally traded to large sums of money, and lost large sums of money, just a vicious cycle. All through this time i've mostly used bittrex and poloniex so my trade history is there, but i've also used other exchanges like cryptsy and mintpal which went under and i have no trading records for.

So let's just say for the sake of it I have $100k of crypto (totally making this up) after having started with $5k worth of Bitcoin bought in 2014 from coinbase and localbitcointalk

WTF do i do with such spotty records.

[Anonymous No.4971408]

>>4971313

What if you pull out of the exchange and put it on a paper wallet? Is that taxable?

[Anonymous No.4971427]

>>4971026
If evwrything I'm doing, total money in and out, is under 1k, do I have to report it?

[Anonymous No.4971440]

>>4971408

No.

Unless it's crypto-crypto or crypto-fiat it's not taxable.

[Anonymous No.4971441]

>>4971268
also you should cash out what you need in liquid funds immediately before the prices move or else yes, you'll owe again on a new gain (or take a loss)

>>4971326
never really thought about this but I have no doubt it's a single queue on a per coin basis. doesn't matter where you bought or sold the bitcoin, it's all the same bitcoin. the only thing that matters to the IRS is USD values at the end of the day.

[Anonymous No.4971464]

>>4971352
>sounds like you didn't give them complete records or had inaccuracies and you are trying to sell more coins than you bought, so they can't match a buy lot with the sell lot


That error is popping up for ETH purchases on Coinbase, which I have full records of.

[Anonymous No.4971494]

>>4971026
>hopefully next year they will exclude reporting of transactions less than $600 in value.

Are IRS fags really going to go after people making a couple hundred $? There are going to be literally hundreds of thousands of cases like that.

[Anonymous No.4971534]

>>4971392
hire a professional. for the records you don't have, you'll likely end up having to report a $0 cost basis and pay full tax vs. knowing the cost basis and only paying tax on the gain.

>>4971464
>(all purchasing pools consumed)
well I don't know what to tell you but this means it doesn't have any more coins that you can sell recordwise. you should recheck the amounts of all the buys and sells you entered.

>>4971494
no they are just trying to ease the reporting and recording keeping requirements with that

[Anonymous No.4971540]

>>4971441
Oof. Thanks for the answer, I was really hoping that wasn't the case. It means that I necro'd a bunch of Bitcoin unwittingly and have to pay a lot of gains because it bumped me up into the 25% income bracket. Even though I was just trading one BTC back and forth on Bittrex...

Definitely going to get some more consultation on this, I spoke to a tax guy for 10 mins on the phone but he couldn't answer my question.

[Anonymous No.4971549]

>>4971292
Thanks bro

[Anonymous No.4971586]

>>4971427
Fuck, *everything. Forgive my grammar as well I'm retarded.

[Anonymous No.4971593]

If I don't cash to fiat what do I report?

[Anonymous No.4971610]

>>4971313
I swapped some of the eth i got from a faucet to btc with shapeshift a while ago, is that gpnna have to be taxed? it was only like 25$

[Anonymous No.4971665]

>>4971610

I have no clue about that.

[Anonymous No.4971735]

>>4971610

Kinda like a gift? Gifts can be a tax event.

[Anonymous No.4971783]

>>4971313
Wrong

[Anonymous No.4971816]

What's wrong about it?

[Anonymous No.4971823]

>>4971534
how the heck would you report coin to coin, everything else makes sense

[Anonymous No.4971880]

>>4971816
You pay taxes if you cash out to fiat...as in through a bank, not coin-to-coin. If this is not the case, provide documentation that shows otherwise. Most of these exchanges use tethers rather than usdt anyways.

[Anonymous No.4971916]

>>4971586
they probably won't go after you, but if you make large gains 2 years down the road and never reported anything previous years, you're gonna have a bad time, so yes you should.

>>4971593
nothing if you also didn't trade any altcoins or make any purchases with cryptos, which will both likely qualify as sales of property.

>>4971610
yes, you'll need the USD values and dates of when you bought the ETH vs. when you sold it for BTC. that will be your gain or loss. it's a trade just like on an exchange, just at market price.

>>4971816
it's not wrong. if you don't sell anything (coin to coin or cashout) there's nothing to tax.

>>4971823
read Q-5 in the pdf of the original post. you need to calculate USD values in a consistent manner for each sale. an easy option would probably be to use coinmarketcaps historical graph data for USD values.

>>4971880
if you plan on doing like kind exchanges for all your coin to coin transactions to defer the tax, keep in mind you still have to report them all, and it will likely lead to audit because they will are only going to be allowed to be used on real estate (not crypto sales)

[Anonymous No.4971920]

>>4971880

The IRS guidelines say nothing about crypto being like-kind.

[Anonymous No.4971925]

>>4971026
>bitcoin.tax
This seems to be the best option. It just calculated all of my bittrex and coinbase trades for free, and the full service is only $20/year. Not bad at all desu.

[Anonymous No.4971927]

There is literally no better reason than this to avoid daytrading and just hodl.

[Anonymous No.4971985]

>>4971026
tl;dr who cares lol too complicated for me to make sure the Jews get their fare share. Fuck the Jews and fuck the US

[Anonymous No.4972000]

>>4971927
yes. my first year I had a trading bot on btc-e and my final tax forms were over 400 pages. luckily I'm a developer and was able to automate most of it. I make much less trades now.

[Anonymous No.4972036]

>>4971916
>>4971920
No documentation

[Anonymous No.4972045]

>>4971916
I have hundreds of day trades from ETH/BTC... so that is all taxable. Fucking the IRS.

[Anonymous No.4972100]

i make about 21k/year
if i hypothetically made $500 on cryptos, would the IRS really bother with fucking me?

[Anonymous No.4972166]

>>4972100

No.

[Anonymous No.4972170]

>>4972036
there's a new bill going through congress now limit 1031 exchanges to real estate only

[Anonymous No.4972195]

>>4971916
im too retarded to understand the pdf
how could i owe tax on a coin to coin trade when by default miner fees mean a net loss in usd

[Anonymous No.4972212]

>>4971372
They couldn't

[Anonymous No.4972239]

Made a couple thousand off BTC. I’m not paying shit. The fucking normies made people actually start thinking about it.

[Anonymous No.4972245]

>>4972170

Alot of bills go through Congress everyday though. I personally doubt any bill will get passed in a Republican Congress that gives the IRS more power to take more money from people.

[Anonymous No.4972298]

>>4972100
no but if you make it a few years down the road, you'll be much happier if you have complete records from previous years.

>>4972195
if you bought $100 in bitcoin then the price rose, so you sold it for $200 total value on the ETH/BTC market, you now have $200 worth of ETH and owe tax on $100 of a property gain.

the IRS doesn't care it's not in dollars, they only care that they get paid on the net gain you made. so you need to pay the tax from liquid funds, or cash out what you need to pay it.

>>4972245
it's still not worth the risk because we are all speculating on bubbles, and the IRS will never defer tax on those gains. they might but I wouldn't count on it.

[Anonymous No.4972362]

>>4971026
Quick question, so I'm thinking of selling some of my stash, probably about 10k USD worth, and I've been holding for over a year. If I only made a small amount of income this year (about 3k working one job that was temporary) does that mean that I would not have to pay capital gains taxes since I am in the lowest tax bracket? Or is bitcoin considered more like a property and not a stock, meaning I would have to pay taxes even though I had barely any income this year.

[Anonymous No.4972381]

>>4972298
ok that makes sense now, so a coin you bought with usd and traded 5 mins later isn’t a taxable event, just needs to be recorded?

how do privacy coins square with reporting?

[Anonymous No.4972460]

Reporting altcoin trades is fucking retarded and you know it.

[Anonymous No.4972464]

>>4971026
My first month I only had losses so I wouldn't have to report those, but I've since recovered by holding. A couple times I sold peaks and bought back in lower. Do I just need to pay tax on each sale ever since I broke even? For example: buy 5 tokens at 1$, sell at 2$, buy more at 1.5. How do I even pay them?

[Anonymous No.4972520]

>>4972239
they probably won't go after you for a couple thousand, but people making 6 figures in profits won't be able to avoid it. it's better to have complete records before you get rich, or else you'll have to go back in fix them. I took losses my first 2 years, but have only 100k in realized and unrealized gains now.

>>4972362
it would be a long term capital asset gain which counts to your tax bracket, so you still report it all but you won't end up owing tax on it if you stay in that bracket. the other 3k will get taxed at your income tax rate, same with any short term capital gains.

>>4972381
it does technically need to be reported, but you probably will have a $0 loss/gain on it because the price won't have a chance to move. it's up to you to report anything taxable or risk the penalties of not reporting.

[Anonymous No.4972526]

>>4972460

It is and I hope the IRS changes the rules.

[Anonymous No.4972573]

For all you paranoid folks, the IRS doesnt even pursue tax avoidance cases below 70k, as reported by multiple sources. Also, doing any coin to fiat below 10k wont set off alarms either, there are simply too many normies playing with crypto that the IRS doesnt have the time nor resources to pursue every case, especially since they go for easy to track cases of fraud IRL like drug dealers and off shore accounts, etc.

[Anonymous No.4972587]

>>4972464
Also, what happens if you pay way more than you need, like just pay 40% on your gains when you convert to fiat. Can you be punished for being lazy and paying too much?

[Anonymous No.4972589]

What are the actual penalties?

Have others been fined or jailed? What are the real cases out there? (vs anecdotal advice).

[Anonymous No.4972609]

>>4972589
0.1BTC plus tip

[Anonymous No.4972662]

>>4972464
you need to report everything, losses and gains. luckily the losses will offset any gains. this is why you need accounting software, it does all those calculations for you.

>>4972573
yes but if you go from rags to riches you'll have a problem once you go to sell and haven't reported anything.

>>4972587
they probably won't audit you but it's not a good practice and will only create problems for you in the future. do it right the first time and you'll never have to fix mistakes of the past.

[Anonymous No.4972681]

>>4972662
Alright thanks.

[Anonymous No.4972694]

DIE TAXMASTER

[Anonymous No.4972703]

Imagine this in court where judges don't even know what bitcoin is, forget an altcoin...

There probably isn't enough crypto experts to even have a court case.

I'm asking for a friend: what if anon makes 227k and doesn't report it for the next 2 years.

Then what? They freeze the bank account?

They fine for overdue taxes on crypto in what amount? (Do they have 20 IT specialists to export all transaction history and verify that the exports from exchanges actually match?).

[Anonymous No.4972710]

>>4972239
How are you cashing out gains? Exchange or localbtc

[Anonymous No.4972713]

>>4971026
Thanks and quick question.

I put in 12k and cashed out 50k.

I wanted to claim long term tax at 15% and say I lost my wallet. In order to prove long term, is burden of proof on the taxpayer?

But then if I claim short term, my capital gains is (50k- 12k = 38k * .25 (my income tax bracket))??

Btw if I held for another 2 weeks it would have been 100k because of the BTC rise. I fell for the tether FUD. None of this matters because I want to kms from these lost gains.

[Anonymous No.4972730]

I literally can't pay taxes

I've made THOUSANDS of trades on multiple exchanges. The majority of them were at a loss.

I would have nothing left.

[Anonymous No.4972757]

>>4972730

You can owe less taxes if you report losses or something.

[Anonymous No.4972760]

My portfolio has only accumulated $300 worth of gains. I haven't cashed out. Is it really worth my time to fill out whatever forms the taxman wants?

[Anonymous No.4972761]

the only way? keep making more money see here discord.gg/dwBNmtD

[Anonymous No.4972763]

>>4972662
Exactly, if people are cashing out six figures they better damn well pay their tax and take the left over profit, but the nit picky shit with alts and few hundred dollar profits is nothing in the real world. A lot of NEETs need to realize this.

[Anonymous No.4972765]

What if I give all my bitcoins to the Red Cross? Will they still pursue fining me? (asking for a friend).

[Anonymous No.4972774]

none of you brainlets are actually going to willingly let the government steal your money, right? atomic swaps make it literally impossible for them to tie anything to you

[Anonymous No.4972787]

>>4972774
Atomic swaps?

[Anonymous No.4972795]

ITT: Op explains everything perfectly and retards are still confused. Bitcoin.tax is $20 well spent.

[Anonymous No.4972813]

>>4972760

See

>>4972573

[Anonymous No.4972818]

>>4972774
jail isnt fun buddy, better to pay and have records than risk ass rape or bank problems

[Anonymous No.4972823]

>>4972774

Look. The key is to pay on what is reported and then some.

Just hire a tax guy and he gives it an OK then if you get audited, you can blame him.

[Anonymous No.4972827]

>>4972573
What multiple sources? Also is that under 70k including your income?

I cashed out 50k from Coinbase but made like 40k this year (yes I’m a wagecuck)

So can I get away with not paying?

[Anonymous No.4972830]

>>4972703
>Imagine this in court where judges don't even know what bitcoin is, forget an altcoin...
they don't care. they know virtual currencies are property and that's how they will treat them, it doesn't matter they don't what they are and how they work.

>>4972713
it's on you to report. shady records with claims of lost wallets and amounts that don't match (bought 1 BTC and magically sold 5 BTC later on) will likely trigger their alarms. if you can't prove your cost basis you'll likely have to pay full tax.

[Anonymous No.4972843]

>>4972795

bitcoin tax doesn't work for trading shitcoins on Liqui

[Anonymous No.4972850]

>>4972813

When will they add Binance?

[Anonymous No.4972864]

>>4972589
Does anyone fucking Google anymore? If the taxman sees you owe taxes they dont go for the "go to jail" move first, they tell you to pay the fucking money. Less than 2% of all tax avoidance cases end up with someone in jail.

[Anonymous No.4972882]

how risky is it to just not report any gains for bitcoin? I'm an under 25k total worth player here

[Anonymous No.4972884]

>>4972765
don't know enough about the gift rules, but I assume you'd still owe on the gain or loss of when you gifted it and then could probably claim the donation amount too

[Anonymous No.4972885]

>>4972818
>>4972823
maybe you misread the first time. atomic swaps make it LITERALLY. IMPOSSIBLE. for your holdings to be tracked. if you let the government take your crypto gains to give to jamal for his welfare, you are by definition, a cuck

[Anonymous No.4972886]

>>4972818
>convert your money to five different privacy coins
>convert it back to BTC
>"sorry mr. IRS I lost all my money on Link."

It's that easy.
DEX/atomic swaps/privacy coins makes it so the government can literally NEVER do anything to stop you.

[Anonymous No.4972890]

guys, just don't trade in shitcoins and don't cash out until taxes catch up to the times and make reporting crypto less of a mess. You're looking at about 10 years of investing into crypto. Did you guys think you could just trade in endless pump n dumps and not have the taxman come? You're doing the stupidest shit imaginable, you should have known better. This is why smart investors just invest and forget about it. People who babysit their investments and constantly move things around make a nightmare for themselves with taxation and documentation.

[Anonymous No.4972903]

The gov doesn't know how to track or tax bitcoin buys, sells, or trades. They don't know how to go about this. CPA confirms unless you get at 1099 somehow don't worry about it. This guy is just larping and it's pretty sad.

[Anonymous No.4972912]

>>4972830
I see.

The 12k cost basis came from the bank though and was deposited into Coinbase. Is that good enough or even that they need to know where THAT 12k came from? It was cash so I mean are they really gonna ask that much?

Or just be like ok this guy paid his taxes like a good guy. Thanks for the $$ and move on? (When there are so many more people evading)

[Anonymous No.4972987]

>>4972912
How does the gov know what price you bought or sold at? How do they know someone didn't transfer you money?

[Anonymous No.4973000]

>>4972903
have fun cashing out $100k and then trying to spend it

>>4972912
you should hire a professional if you want to deal with lost records properly, I don't know much about that. it's hard enough to do even when you have complete records.

[Anonymous No.4973010]

>>4971372
By running through the blockchain ledger if your shitcoin doesn't give full privacy on the transaction.

[Anonymous No.4973077]

Another question, say I try and sell btc locally to people in exchange for cash, does depositing cash (probably a max of 1000 or so at a time) into my bank account count as something that can potentially be taxed? Like does a certain amount deposited or multiple deposits raise some sort of red flag?

[Anonymous No.4973105]

>>4973077
No, over 10k will though

[Anonymous No.4973117]

>>4973077
yes you retard
live off with crypto gains and save all of your job payments. then buy the lambo with that.

[Anonymous No.4973119]

>>4973077

From what I've read anything above $10k will auto-trigger the bank to notify the IRS about said transaction.

[Anonymous No.4973130]

>>4972885

Look.

They don't get drug dealers when they store the cash under their mattress, but when they drive around with new cars and get a new house.

But I guess you OK just not buying anything.

And I'm not saying you can't buy anything with crypto, I'm saying that stuff gets noticed.

>Skyler, I won it as a Casino!

[Anonymous No.4973131]

>>4972987
Good point and that’s what I’m wondering. Are they gonna ask that or just take that I paid and move on? Do they ask about cost basis?

[Anonymous No.4973140]

>>4973077
>thousands of dollars magically starts being deposited into bank account
>doesnt think there will be a problem

Your bank will eventually file a suspicious activity report and then you can say hello tax man. Theyll most likely think you are a drug dealer.

[Anonymous No.4973151]

>>4973000
>cashing out ever

If you are in crypto to get fiat rich then you are missing the point. Just relax until you can make regular every day purchases with crypto.

[Anonymous No.4973152]

>>4973077
oh i forgot. dont bank it thats the most stupid shit i read , at some point they will ask where you get the money and if you dont know how to respond or prove it (crypto duh) youre going to spend some sexy time with jamal in jail

[Anonymous No.4973155]

>>4973000
Cashing out 100k in USD rofl you really are an idiot

[Anonymous No.4973177]

>>4973119
any suspicious deposit, usually from 3-10k (especially ones that appear to be structured), are reported to fincen. there's not hard rule on it.

[Anonymous No.4973217]

>>4971026
My my the Jewnited States Tax system sure is covetous. Glad I don't live there.

[Anonymous No.4973249]

>>4973151

Who knows when that will happen.

[Anonymous No.4973251]

So if i buy one coin and traded it for another coin is that something that needs to be reported?

[Anonymous No.4973291]

I'm a US citizen but live in a foreign country/countries currently. I don't have a job in the USA and I won't have made enough to file at my job that I quit earlier this year. Do I have to worry?

Been holding BTC for years now.

[Anonymous No.4973298]

>>4972885
>>4972886
good luck cashing out to fiat, buying a house, a car, propery, or anything else

[Anonymous No.4973305]

>>4973130
>But I guess you OK just not buying anything.

most of us are NEETS who just want to be able to sit around and play video games all day without worrying about money, so yes

[Anonymous No.4973315]

>>4973251

If you sold Coin A for Coin B at a higher price then what you initially bought Coin A for then yes.

[Anonymous No.4973330]

>>4973305
Unironically me. I just want to watch anime alone in my room.

[Anonymous No.4973373]

>>4971026
If i cash out only ~4k and started with ~2k do I still have to pei taxes? pls respond

[Anonymous No.4973384]

>>4973291
don't know, probably depends on if you used US based exchanges that verified identity and which country to technically made the income in.

[Anonymous No.4973413]

So basically does this mean Monero is going to moon this April?

[Anonymous No.4973417]

>>4973177
what about this scenario

I buy 1 btc at 100
1 at 300
1 at 500

and then sell 1.5 years later at 500

how do I calculate the appreciation

[Anonymous No.4973439]

>>4973305
Me senpai

[Anonymous No.4973455]

>>4973417
1.5 btc that is

[Anonymous No.4973535]

>>4971026
If I invested $1000 in May, saw my coin value double to $2000, withdrew $1000, and then still have the remaining balance in coins at year's end, do I actually have any taxable events? I have no gains or losses per se, as 1000 - 1000 is 0

[Anonymous No.4973544]

>>4973373
yes, read the thread. the amount will be determined by your tax bracket.

>>4973417
using FIFO the 1st lot will be sold and half the 2nd lot will be sold, so 1 @ $100 and 0.5 @ $300 so $250 total cost basis vs. 1.5 @ $500 ($750), so $500 taxable gain and you still have 0.5 from lot #2 and the 1.0 from lot #3 available to sell.

[Anonymous No.4973551]

>>4971026
If I invested $1000 in May, saw my coin value double to $2000, withdrew $1000, and then still have the remaining balance in coins at year's end, do I actually have any taxable events? I have no gains or losses per se, as 1000 - 1000 is 0

[Anonymous No.4973569]

Wouldn’t a way to avoid taxes that’s hard to track be to transfer it to multiple wallets, take a “hit”’in transfer fees then cash it out in small bits than just one lump sum, and just claim your account was hacked or you fell victim to a phishing scam and no longer have the money. Never claimed the theft since you think it’s impossible to track. By the time they reach out to you, it’ll be much harder if they can to actually track it/prove you didn’t get “hacked” or was a victim to phishing.

[Anonymous No.4973628]

>>4972903
If you ever cash out, they can start crawling up your ass about how you got that bitcoin.

If you never cash out, you better hope someone's records don't point back to you, because once you get someone's real name and load it in to a database filled with metadata about bitcoin transactions, that shit is going to cascade out, like some sort of bizarre game of 6000 degrees of Kevin Bacon, and how hard they fuck you will depend on how badly they want you or someone you did a transaction with who did a transaction with the real big fish they are looking for.

You're a bit safer with Monero, because then they can only nail you if they can trace your exchange history, which they're working on.

Honestly, it's a lot of trouble to bother with when they can just tax crypto like stocks and assume your cost basis is 0 every time you cash out, putting the onus on you to provide transaction histories.

Sure, if you're small fry they're not going to bother. If you're a whale someone at the IRS is going to eye harpooning you at some point.

[Anonymous No.4973650]

>>4972573
True but when this becomes common knowledge, like it is right now with people like you spreading the word, they will begin cracking down as not doing so will create an effect of more and more people not paying the bullies.

[Anonymous No.4973665]

>>4973551
you get taxed on what you sell. assuming you sold half for $1000, you have a $1000 taxable gain and no losses since you didn't sell the other half.

>>4973569
probably won't work at large amounts that are on the IRS's radar and you put the money in a bank account

[Anonymous No.4973679]

>>4973544
Thank you Based Tax Man

[Anonymous No.4973697]

>>4973544
so the lot includes all holdings even if they aren’t mixed together?

so as long as you have one old bitcoin you owe its rate at time of sale up to its denomination

[Anonymous No.4973738]

>>4973551
It's a taxable event. You sold your coins at double the price you payed for them, so you had a sale of $1000 with a $500 cost basis. Uncle Sam wants his cut of that $500 profit.

[Anonymous No.4973801]

supposing you've already claimed your $3000 losses for the year:

buy 1 bitcoin for 10k [10,000]
trade for 100 of an alt when bitcoin worth 15k later [$15,000] ($5000 gain)
sell 100 of an alt for .9 bitcoin when bitcoin is 18k [$16,200] ($1,250 gain)
trade .9 bitcoin for 150 of an alt when bitcoin at 12k [$10,800] ($5,400 loss) <- this is fucked up
sell 150 of an alt for .8 bitcoin when bitcoin at 14k 11,200 ($400 usd gain)

final product .8 bitcoin worth 11,200 usd
6,650 profit tax (25% tax would be ~$1650)
5,400 losses towards next year

End up with $450 less than started with thanks to taxes.

Is this right? Is this fair? What the fuck man.

[Anonymous No.4973824]

>>4973697
the lot is based on the cost basis. so if you bought 1 coin at $10, then bought 1 more at $12, that's a new lot so you have 2 lots and 2 coins total. then you sell them in order of the way they came in (they will force us to use FIFO) by calculating the total cost basis in USD vs. the total net proceeds in USD like the example (750 - 250 = 500). so you can sell in fractions as long as it all adds up in the end, hope that answers the questions.

[Anonymous No.4973854]

>>4973824
yep that makes sense thank you based tax man

[Anonymous No.4973919]

>>4973801
most people think they only owe tax on time of cash out and wouldn’t trade if they knew better. bet something like “you owe tax at coin -> coin” ends up in a sticky within a year.

[Anonymous No.4973924]

OP how do you report gains on forked coins, IE if I sold all my BCH which just materialized in my possession one day

[Anonymous No.4973957]

>>4972823
doesn't work that way, you are still liable for any mistakes since you're supposed to review everything before you sign off on it (although they're more lenient with actual mistakes as long as it's not avoidance)

[Anonymous No.4974019]

So what defines a taxable crypto? Exchange listing? What happens if someone cooks up a new crypto and blockchain at the start of tax season and this happens continuously every month, so everyone's caught in a forking game of cat and mouse, and bitcoin loses all of its value while Monero and a legion of new altcoins takes control of the scene?

[Anonymous No.4974107]

>>4973924
curious about this too.

[Anonymous No.4974110]

>>4973801
not really following but the trades add up to a $1250 gain, so with a $3k initial loss that means you're at -$1750 for the year. it doesn't matter what you hold, but you can claim a $1750 loss now. without the $3k loss you'd owe tax on the $1250 in gains.

>>4973924
this is a harder one. the logical thing to do is treat it as "other income" at market price when it was acquired. keep in mind this could be $0 if no markets exist for it when it was acquired or it was worthless, but you'd have to pay income tax on it if it did have value. then when you sell it you'll pay either the gain or loss from your cost basis like normal. but you could also maybe treat it as gift income or self employment income like mining, probably best to ask a CPA if you got a sizable amount of it.

[Anonymous No.4974126]

>>4973919
That's going to depend on how hard the IRS cracks down. If they're not getting your full transaction history from your exchanges, they are pretty much left at just making sure whatever you actually cash out adds up to your story on how you made it.

If the IRS gets your full transaction history, yeah, they're going to want their cut of all that paper money you made trading shitcoins, even if you didn't tell them you were trading shitcoins yourself.

[Anonymous No.4974209]

>>4974110
Wait, you're only taxed on the final outcome? I thought you were saying you're taxed on each trade? Are you saying if I gain $50.,000 then lose $45,000 I'm only taxed for $5000 profit?

[Anonymous No.4974211]

>>4974110
the safest thing to do is probably pay full tax on this ($0 cost basis) when it's sold unless it clearly had significant market value when you acquired it. if that's the case a CPA should deal with that.

[Anonymous No.4974229]

>>4974107
Pretty sure they more or less count as newly mined coins, so you would have to pay taxes on whatever that initial price was if you are holding, or whatever you sold them at if you sold. That's going to be more of a grey area though, as if they were in a private wallet you can deny they are yours until you actually send them somewhere, but if they were given to you on an exchange that's much easier to track. Kind of depends on how the government determines ownership of private keys.

[Anonymous No.4974235]

>>4974209
If I gain $50,000*

[Anonymous No.4974248]

>>4974209
you're taxed on the gain or loss from each sale. so if you gain 50k and lose 45k in the same tax year, you only get taxed on the 5k.

[Anonymous No.4974263]

I haven't made over 10k so im jist not even going to mention it

[Anonymous No.4974264]

>>4971916
Thanks tax senpai

[Anonymous No.4974364]

>>4974248
Am I the only one confused by this? It sounds like you're saying 2 different things in the same sentence. If you're taxed on the gain from each sale then 25% of 50k would be 12.5k in taxes. That's independent from losses later right?
And you're only allowed to claim up to $3,000 in losses per year aren't you? This thread might be made for me because it's making me feel pretty stupid.

[Anonymous No.4974464]

>>4971225
Yes.

Just say other people are with you and order two meals and two drinks so the receipt looks real.

Save vat and bonus you get two meals. You can ask the waiters to wrap the extras in foil and eat them later or the next day - protip, pretend someone is actually joining you and then answer a pretend call with them canceling, that way you get less weird looks from staff

[Anonymous No.4974484]

>>4974229
I have only got a few hundred worth in free/forked coins overall, so I'm treating them as $0 cost basis and paying full tax when I sell vs. claiming them as income/paying income tax rate, and then selling them with a non-zero cost basis. people with tons of BCH should get professional advice though.

>>4974364
the gains and losses offset in the same tax year. if you gain 50k in december and lose 45k in january, you're fucked, don't do that. if you do it in the same year, you're fine. this is why you don't panic sell.

[Anonymous No.4974515]

>>4974484
Thanks, I love you.

[Anonymous No.4974540]

>>4974110
>this is a harder one. the logical thing to do is treat it as "other income" at market price when it was acquired. keep in mind this could be $0 if no markets exist for it when it was acquired or it was worthless, but you'd have to pay income tax on it if it did have value. then when you sell it you'll pay either the gain or loss from your cost basis like normal. but you could also maybe treat it as gift income or self employment income like mining, probably best to ask a CPA if you got a sizable amount of it.
how do you think bitcoin.tax and other services will treat it? I plan to just use one of them and not worry about it

[Anonymous No.4974614]

>>4974263
hey taxman is this wise

[Anonymous No.4974637]

>>4971026
wait so all I have to do instead is give up my U.S. citizenship and move somewhere else like New Zealand and I don't really have to fuck with any of this nonsense?

hm tough decision

[Anonymous No.4974674]

>>4974540
no idea. I'm actually afraid of how they will treat it. they will probably just go the zero cost basis route. it would be a stretch for the IRS to argue that forked coins have any significant market values (ie: making people claim it as income at their income tax rates) when they are created. the markets don't spin up until after the coin exists.

[Anonymous No.4974711]

So, wait, how do they tax you if you don't cash out and only use gains in BTC? Are they going to force a cash out to collect taxes?

[Anonymous No.4974775]

>>4974711
you have to calculate the USD values at the time of each sale in a manner that's consistently applied, so no cherry picking exchange prices to ease your tax burden. they don't care if you aren't liquid, just that you owe on a gain of property value in terms of USD. how you pay the bill is your problem.

[Anonymous No.4974879]

>>4974711
>>4974775
Historically, this has happened with my stock brokerage. Normally I just pay out of my savings and go on with my life, but if I had to I'd have to sell stock to pay my tax bill. Not a big deal when it's only a few thousand dollars, but it could be troublesome if you broke a million in a year and you can't actually liquidate

[Anonymous No.4974909]

>>4974879
Will also be a real bitch if you made a million in a year and then the price crashed before you can liquidate enough to pay the tax man.

[Anonymous No.4975022]

>>4971026
I’m considered a dependent on my tax returns.

However if I am a single filer, i make less than 10k. How does the crypto taxes apply to me.

>initial was 1.1k
>current portfolio is 9k

[Anonymous No.4975140]

>>4975022
0% on long term gains, and your income tax rate on short term (10%). you still have to report everything but you won't owe anything on the long term gains. you only owe on the gain when you sell to fiat or trade for altcoins.

[Anonymous No.4975208]

>>4975140
Only problem is my entire portfolio is in alts.

So short term would apply and i live in california.

Fuck. Would it be better to fully send my taxes or just wait? Rather than half assing it

[Anonymous No.4975322]

>>4973384
You've got 100k-ish in tax free money then..it's called the foreign earned income credit. Not sure how it works with capital gains though. Take advantage of it...it is about the only way an American can live tax free.

[Anonymous No.4975329]

>>4975208
if you plan on ever getting rich off cryptos, best option is to make sure everything is legit and in order from the start, otherwise you will have massive problems when you go to sell a large amount down the road and you don't have complete record of when each coin you are selling was acquired and for how much, so if you want that 15% long term rate, you'll need to have a clean record. the problem will only get worse as time goes on.

[Anonymous No.4975408]

>>4975329
I keep detailed records on my excel. Just want my based covered. Plus a good friend of my is a CPA who is doing crypto accounting on the side

[Anonymous No.4975431]

>>4975408
you're already way ahead of most of biz then

[Anonymous No.4975440]

>>4971026
I realized $30k profit coin to coin trades. my tax software says i owe $10k in taxes FIFO.

I dont have 10k cash to pay tax on that and my remaining crypto is now only worth $5k. How the fuck am I going to pay this?!

this is why no one pays taxes

[Anonymous No.4975485]

If you were going to file as like-kind how would you do it?

[Anonymous No.4975488]

>>4974879
This is pretty ridiculous. They can't actually expect people to liquidate on demand with crypto volatility can they? They'd be poised to lose gains from the taxes themselves if they went full retard and tried to collect on a dip just because it's collecting time.

[Anonymous No.4975544]

I've bought a total of 800 or so Link with ETH, maybe a bit more. I bought the ETH through coinbase, and then the Link through binance. I'm gathering that i still have to report all these fucking transactions

[Anonymous No.4975575]

>>4975440
sucks but try to plan it better next time. always cash out enough for tax when you make huge gains. I assume you haven't realized the massive loss yet? one option would be to realize that massive loss before year end and offset those gains, but that all depends on what you're holding and if you're willing to dump it.

[Anonymous No.4975608]

>>4975485
I wouldn't, you'll have to ask someone willing to take that massive risk.

>>4975544
yeah, it's easier if you keep it all updated when you make the trades.

[Anonymous No.4975732]

>>4975608
Luckily, i dont have many trades. I can go back and see relatively easily. Do i have to know the price i bought the Link at?

And, just so I'm clear, i dont have to report the ETH (or Litecoin) i bought directly from Coinbase, just any transactions I've made with that currency

[Anonymous No.4975733]

>>4975440
My guess is you have an unrealized loss somewhere. If you trade that coin for something before the end of the year, it'll realize that loss and subtract capital losses against your short term capital gains.

[Anonymous No.4975838]

>>4975488
IRS doesn't give a shit. It's up to you to plan your taxes responsibly. If you're going to trade this shit all year, be ready to cash out enough to pay your tax bill at the end of December. Or cash out enough that you take a loss to offset your earlier gains. Or hold long term and remember to stash enough away when you cash out every now and then to pay your taxes.

You want to make big boy money, you have to pay big boy taxes.

[Anonymous No.4975861]

>>4971026
I traded at BTC-e and mtgox from 2013-2016 and only started trading at bittrex and poloniex this year. I'm pretty sure the best move is to stay quiet about the BTC-e and mtgox trades, especially since they consider BTC-e a 'criminal money laundering site' but I need some way to explain how I got the original eth from to fund my polo account. What do? Should I say I used shapeshift?

[Anonymous No.4976031]

>>4975732
you need the USD prices on everything, calculated and applied consistently, and you have to report all sales. so buying and holding isn't reported until you sell it for another coin or sell it to fiat - then you enter in the cost basis and date you bought vs. the net proceeds/date you sold, and that's your gain/loss.

>>4975861
if you've gone years not reporting, I would either hold out until they give more clarification on that, or hire a professional. you don't have to list the exchange so I would just report everything if you have the records for it. if you don't have the records you'll probably end up paying tax on the full amounts of the transactions you don't have complete records for. all you do is list what coins you bought with the date/price and when you sold it for how much, don't need to say how you got it.

[Anonymous No.4976086]

>>4976031
>if you've gone years not reporting, I would either hold out until they give more clarification on that, or hire a professional. you don't have to list the exchange so I would just report everything if you have the records for it. if you don't have the records you'll probably end up paying tax on the full amounts of the transactions you don't have complete records for. all you do is list what coins you bought with the date/price and when you sold it for how much, don't need to say how you got it.
So if 2017 was my first year would you recommend taking care of taxes on all transactions, OR wait for clarification

[Anonymous No.4976124]

Disregard this dumb LARPer, but check out this discord : https://discord.gg/5DjF5Nd : whales giving free business signals. It's a group called Prime Signal, gave me 3 moon signals so far. Free moolah

[Anonymous No.4976151]

>>4975838
But I'm a little boy, anon! It's not my fault that the money came to me.

[Anonymous No.4976173]

Lel. The government mafia is stealing money from you and you're all such cucks that you even do all the accounting for them. You deserve Trump.

[Anonymous No.4976221]

Like...they say some vague stuff about paying them taxes and you are spending hours figuring out how to get your money stolen properly. Words cannot express how ridiculous this sounds.

[Anonymous No.4976238]

>>4976086
if you're hesitant I would record everything for worst case scenario (all transactions) now and wait for clarification before filing.

[Anonymous No.4976279]

>>4976221
maybe if you're poor you can avoid the tax man, but some of us don't have a choice

[Anonymous No.4976358]

>>4976279
Wrong, not poor. Just not sheepy enough. You're either play it safe and get assfucked every day or you fight for your freedom.

[Anonymous No.4976460]

>>4976358
ooooh, we have a che guevara over here... a true freedom fighter. tell me, FBI agent smith, how much do they pay you to lurk on some chinese board full of worthless harmless NEETs? You must feel so worthless too... I hope it burns you inside, to know that you're assigned to such a wasteful task. HAHAHAH you must be some rookie guy who everyone makes fun of. we're all paying our taxes, mkay? now shoo shoo. no revolucción here.

[Anonymous No.4976590]

What's the worse that can happen if we hit 7 figures in 1 or 2 years and don't report our taxes until then?

[Anonymous No.4976616]

you fucking idiots fall for this shit every time