/biz/ - Business & Finance

[Anonymous No.4361464]

What's happening right now:

On all normie exchanges Bitcoin has easily broken out the $6600 cage. Well, guess what, on bittrex, bitfinex, bithump some guys with a lot of btc, made from the fake bitcoin pump, are desperatly trying to keep the price down. They know all to well what happens once Bitcoin jumps into that 7k range.

Their options are limited. They could try harder, sell a lot of Bitcoin under price while selling off their fake Bitcoin in small portions all the while putting huge buywalls at .1 so buyers potentially feel safe.

https://fork.lol/pow/hashrate

Go to the bottom, have a look. Fake bitcoin aka bcash will die a slow and painful death. I mean sure they could adjust the difficulty YET AGAIN, more bitcoin fake coins, more money, right? kek, nope.

Have a look at their statement, link from fork.lol: https://www.bitcoinabc.org/november

This is NOT were your money should rest long term, it'll crash, sooner or later, meanwhile bitcoin breaks out and poor fake bitcoin holders will miss the ship to 10k EOY.

[Anonymous No.4361490]

>>4361464
the 0.02 wall on bitfines is obvious, as soon as that breaks down panic will ensue

[Anonymous No.4361555]

>>4361490
and people will buy again, but this time there are no magic 10k btc buywalls appearing at .1... and once it goes under that... oh well, it'll be fun.

the nicest part isbe that at that point Bitcoin will be in the $7k - $8k range

[Anonymous No.4361587]

>>4361464
Why is there so much salt from Bitcoin Legacy people? You have many of the biggest names in Bitcoin coming out in support of Bitcoin Cash, along with a huge market rally, and you people are so delusional as to think it's a pump and dump. No pump and dump in all of history has had this much money put into it (tens of billions of dollars).

I don't have a side in the BTC/BCH debate, but the level of fear that comes across in these posts makes me think maybe the Bitcoin Cash move is a real threat. Money Skeleton even said it would be worthy of taking over the "Bitcoin" name.

[Anonymous No.4361643]

>>4361464
Core supporters are desperate.
I am enjoying every second of this.

[Anonymous No.4361646]

>>4361587
The banks have poured a lot of resources into turning bitcoin into something that they can control and serves their interests. Bitcoin Cash is threatening all of that.

[Anonymous No.4361738]

>>4361646
I am really wondering if there are Core supporters that are actually paid to raid forums. Or are they just normal people who don't understand the situation.

[Anonymous No.4361775]

>>4361738
They most definitely are paid shills at this point. OP is one of them. Every forum or discussion that they don't have mod control over they do >>4361464.

[Anonymous No.4361776]

>>4361646

>The banks have poured a lot of resources into turning bitcoin into something that they can control and serves their interests. Bitcoin Cash is threatening all of that.

Jihan blink twice if that is you.

[Anonymous No.4361784]

>>4361646
Exactly

[Anonymous No.4361803]

>>4361587
They're fucking terrified

[Anonymous No.4361804]

reminder to buy the btc dip right now.

[Anonymous No.4361831]

People who are hating BCH are mad they missed out on an easy 3x profit. It’s really just that simple. Btw I have no BCH anymore

[Anonymous No.4361850]

>>4361775
If it is true, then it is damn interesting. I have so many questions to ask from such people. Would want to know how such people were found, how much they get paid, how is their work being supervised, what are the working hours, ...

[Anonymous No.4361992]

I think people underestimate the amount of disingenuous emotion online. Between the armies of paid shills, sentiment analysis bots, fud campaigns, it's getting harder and harder to evaluate what people really think.

Once you can though, the picture becomes very clear. Things are about to change.

[Anonymous No.4361999]

>>4361464
What's happening right now is that there's a lot of angry whales who bought BCH at >0.3 before the flash crash and now they're keeping the BCH price artificially up waiting for the final wave of BTC correction to happen and then they'll try to pump BCH back to .3 and dump hard. This is what I'm guessing, but one thing is sure, there's many whales holding heavy bags because the sell orders did not trigger during the ddos attacks.

[Anonymous No.4362026]

>>4361464
NOBODY WANTS YOUR HEAVY BAGS!!!

GO AWAY BCASH SHILLS

[Anonymous No.4362031]

"when others are fearful then you should be greedy"

dude this post is screaming SJWW

what a fag whoever posted this, it's so desperate & pathetic dude

[Anonymous No.4362085]

dude after this fucking shit show, i've seen how fucking vulnerable this board is to systematic shilling, and the chink presence is undeniable, i'll be outed as a pajeet for questioning their sanity when they were shilling a "flippening". Its a 6 month old coin controlled by 3 guys, if anyone *actually* sold off btc for bch and held with intentions of it passing parity, jesus fuck i guess you can chalk that up as an expensive lesson. I lost faith in 4chan for sure over ther passed week

[Anonymous No.4362125]

>>4362085
Pic not related at all right?

[Anonymous No.4362128]

>>4362085
don't forget that there is a lot of new and dumb money who has joined the crypto space recently, they are easily impressed.

[Anonymous No.4362149]

>>4361803
>>4361784
>>4361850
the volume is dumping hard on bittrex, only gooks fucking with bcash at this point

[Anonymous No.4362185]

>>4362085
>lost faith in 4chan
>he had faith in 4chan
baka desu senpai

[Anonymous No.4362206]

>>4361643
lmao
come on dude

>>/biz/?task=search2&search_filename=cc3.jpg

[Anonymous No.4362224]

>>4362085
Reminder

[Anonymous No.4362233]

>>4362085
If you fucks did anything to solve the scaling issue instead of "store of value lol nothing to see here goy" this wouldn't have happened. It's like complaining about hackers pwning your shit but not even trying to solve your security holes.

[Anonymous No.4362273]

>>4362206
Is this a bot? He barely changes his posts at all.

[Anonymous No.4362320]

>>4361643
>>4362273
The jig is up chinkboy.

[Anonymous No.4362378]

>>4362125
I can't tell if it's irony anymore.

[Anonymous No.4362382]

It's obvious Bcash was meant to swindle many bitcoin holders and their nonsense is turning many salty butt holes.

Fuck Roger, Fuck Jihan Wu, Fuck Bcash

long live the King! The one true Bitcoin

[Anonymous No.4362395]

>>4362382
Did I miss a thread where everyone acted like reddit shills and are now just doing it to piss people off?

[Anonymous No.4362415]

>>4362125
oy vey what do we have here?? an anti semide???

[Anonymous No.4362422]

[Anonymous No.4362444]

>>4362128
fuck im apart of that new dumb money, i lost .03btc day trading bitcoin cash

[Anonymous No.4362474]

>>4362422
this fucking racist, my grandparents died at sandy hook

[Anonymous No.4362484]

Cashies BTFO

https://www.forbes.com/sites/spencerbogart/2017/11/13/bitcoin-vs-bitcoin-cash-a-story-of-prioritization-a-healthy-competition-in-money/#75dc498f4bcc

[Anonymous No.4362508]

>>4361464
Storj pump from the Vitalik Transfer has begun. That is what is happening.

[Anonymous No.4362607]

>>4361643
>desperation
Shill rule 1: always accuse your opponent of doing what you are actually doing.

[Anonymous No.4362700]

>>4361646
Lol, the only thing BCH is trying to do is make ASIC miners more money and you fell for it ... I dislike the way BTC is being run, but BCH is bigger evil out of the two. Keep bagholding it all the way to nothingness, it is just useless coin with nothing to offer but fake press

[Anonymous No.4363358]

BTC at full hashpower and BTC network is not making any recovery progress. Once people realize this they will abandon ship all at one time

[Anonymous No.4363685]

>>4361490
.2 is yesterday's news .19 is the best price you'll get for your bags today.

[Anonymous No.4363724]

>>4362422
>the dead eyeballs of a dog boiler.

[Anonymous No.4363741]

>>4362474
i imagine you're referring to the great roller coaster oven ride of 1943?

[Anonymous No.4363774]

we're reaching 100k+ again

[Anonymous No.4363812]

>>4361464
How stupid are all of you that don't hold both. They serve different purposes. Bitcoin Segwit scales off-chain through the Lightning Network. Bitcoin Cash scales on-chain with a massive blockchain. You have to be retarded to believe they compete in the same sphere.

[Anonymous No.4363849]

>>4362700
You realize that without ASIC miners Bitcoin doesn't function, right? Do you know how cryptos work?

[Anonymous No.4363918]

>>4363849
>yfw you realize if the asics dropped out people would boot up GPUs and the difficulty would eventually adjust down

[Anonymous No.4363931]

>>4361587
literally who nigger? that faggot ass kangaroo in mom jeans? Only shittls, noob and faggots support btrash! period. pick one. or more

[Anonymous No.4363934]

>>4363358
Core has convinced people high fees and slow transactions are normal. It will take some time

[Anonymous No.4363943]

>>4362273
Not a bot. But I am 100% getting a kick out of these BTC shillers. They are really flooding /biz/ like crazy these past few days. Makes you wonder that something is happening.
They are almost never talking about technical aspects or anything rational. Most they say is just something completely nonsensical "BCrash", "SELLSELLSELL BCH" and "Roger Ver is destroying all cryptos".

[Anonymous No.4363949]

>>4361646
you got it backwards.

>>4361738
normal person. you're the retard who is confused. keep up you retarded faggot.

[Anonymous No.4363966]

>>4362233
Fuck off, retard.

[Anonymous No.4363968]

Im the average Joe normal guy with low knowledge on all this. I bought Bitcoin recently and there is only one Bitcoin for me. I would be pissed as hell if out of a sudden my exchange switches this Bitcoin Cash shit (i dunno what the details on this fake coin are) for being the real Bitcoin. I would propably even sue cause i put substantial money in it. I wanted the original and bought the original. I dont want a fucking Pepsi when i order a god damn Coca Cola.

[Anonymous No.4363980]

>>4363943

7 TX per second: 1MB

70 TX per second: 10MB

700 TX per second: 100 FUCKING MB block you retarded faggot!

on chain scaling is for absolute faggot ass retards. you are one of those faggot ass retards.

KYS. seriously

[Anonymous No.4364003]

>>4363918
He doesn't. He is a Bcash supporter. These guys are mentally challenged with the slightest bit of technical details.

[Anonymous No.4364014]

>>4363968
As soon as you make your first transaction with BTC you will understand. I hope you didn´t fall for the store of value meme

[Anonymous No.4364026]

>>4363968
Don't worry brah, since you bought BTC it'll be alright. It's already going back up. It'll be worth 10k in just a few months. I'm laughing at the BCH shills as they desperately tell people to buy into their shitcoin.

[Anonymous No.4364042]

>>4364014
Of course im gonna store that Bitcoin for years to come, what else should i do with it ??? Why should i transfer or sell this, its the hot shit everyone is talking about

[Anonymous No.4364067]

>>4361643
you do realize you can't even pump your shitcoin up with all the buying power on biz and reddit...right?

just give it up already

[Anonymous No.4364100]

>>4364067
Holding mostly ETH.

[Anonymous No.4364102]

>>4363980
Satoshi envisioned 100GB blocks you uneducated fuck. He also envisioned server farms to connect light nodes to the network.

[Anonymous No.4364129]

>>4364014
bitcoin as a matter of fact is a storage of value : it's a pain in the ass to transfer (long and expensive). it sure wasn't mean by it's original dev but that's what it is now.

[Anonymous No.4364178]

>>4364102
100GB / day that's 68MB blocks not 100GB blocks

[Anonymous No.4364209]

>>4364129
Where do you think did this value come from in the first place. People making transactions with it. I don´t think people would have bought BTC in the early days if the whitepaper said "Digital Bytes you hold and do nothing with"

[Anonymous No.4364216]

>>4364102
he also envisioned Payment Channels / Lightning!

There were a few things he missed! ASICS! he wasn't too stoked when Lazlo started mining on GPUs and he sure as hell wasn't happy when the ASICS came out.

you're the uneducated faggot ass fuck!

[Anonymous No.4364236]

>>4361738
This is a weird narrative you're trying to push.
BCH is not only called 'counterfeit bitcoin' in the mass media, but also has nothing to support it. No developers, no technology, no transactions, just some outdated BTC code with top tier marketing slapped on it. BCH is not going to survive and it never was supposed to, it's a pump and dump exit strategy.

[Anonymous No.4364252]

>>4363943
>They are almost never talking about technical aspects or anything rational. Most they say is just something completely nonsensical "BCrash", "SELLSELLSELL BCH" and "Roger Ver is destroying all cryptos".
obvious lie.

[Anonymous No.4364253]

>>4363968
This is bottom of the barrel shilling. I hope no one is paying you for this because if they are, they're getting ripped off.

[Anonymous No.4364261]

>>4364209
the scarcity, the tech, the hype, the darkweb, tax evasion, insane ROI, ICO bubbleshit. ppl don't want to transact with bitcoin they want moar bitcoin.

[Anonymous No.4364272]

>>4364102

your sauce is from BEFORE there was a working client. BACK THEN HE WANTED ONE CPU ONE VOTE!

WE ARE NOT IN ONE CPU ONE VOTE LAND YOU RETARDED ASS FAGGOT.

SO, WE HAVE TO DO WHAT WE HAVE TO DO. WE ARE NOT GOING TO FUCKING HAVE 100 MB BLOCKS. THATS YOUR SHITCOIN BCH. HAVE FUN WITH IT. IT' WILL BE WORTH LESS THAN BITBEAN SOON

[Anonymous No.4364283]

>>4364178
Either way dumbass, the point still stands. This is Satoshi's vision. Massive block sizes.

[Anonymous No.4364285]

>>4363968
no one will switch your bitcoin for bch, your bitcoin will be rename :btcseg" and you'll have a 0 balance of bitcoin (ex bch)

[Anonymous No.4364300]

>>4364216
He envisioned one way lightning networks, not lateral lightning networks. Read it again. He wanted lighting channels between users, not as a network as a whole because then BTC is no longer trustless. Don't get me wrong I still hold BTC because I like Lightning, but its not what Satoshi talked about because it is not trustless. He wanted one-way Lightning channels, not lateral Lightning channels.

[Anonymous No.4364332]

Bitcoin Cash is the true Satoshis Vision and if you don't understand this you will lose all of your money.

[Anonymous No.4364333]

>>4364272
I own them both because I've been in this game for a long time newfag. I'm not selling either at this point, but I also know BCH has more upside potential at current prices.

[Anonymous No.4364376]

>>4364283
is he an omnipotent economic god? what if bitcoin has mutated and satoshi's vision was not relevant anymore?

[Anonymous No.4364435]

>>4364376
Then I ask who mutated it at why? In reality segwit is a cancer that was simply a compromise on a scaling solution because one needed to be made. You got your side of the deal then made a great effort to stop the blocksize increase. Now bitcoin cash is that blocksize increase and you are resorting to baseless retarded arguments in an effort to illegitimize BCH.

[Anonymous No.4364436]

>>4364283
68MB = 100GB ye right

[Anonymous No.4364448]

>>4364376
Satoshi was wrong on a lot, I'm just saying you guys make up shit to justify your terrible investment decisions. Both Bitcoin Segwit and Bitcoin Cash are now moving away from Satoshi's vision in some way. Bitcoin Segwit is centralizing and forcing trust into transactions through the lateral Lightning Network. Bitcoin Cash is centralizing power in the hands of those with enough money to buy servers or ASIC's. That's why I own both. Neither are true to the vision because his vision is impossible. But to only bag on one is retarded.

[Anonymous No.4364468]

>>4364332
This Faggot

[Anonymous No.4364475]

>>4364436
You people are retarded, I was responding to a post saying we couldn't have 100MB block sizes because low block sizes were Satoshi's vision. They are not. Satoshi always wanted massive blocks and zero fees. Does Bitcoin have massive blocks and zero fees? No.

[Anonymous No.4364498]

>>4364435
segwit, is a soft nerf of asics, reducing power of miners. if miners adopted segwit transactions we'll have a faster network and lower fees. on the other hand bick blocks favorises asics boost miners which offers them de facto more power. neither core nor bch is true to satoshi's vision, you seem to forget that he wanted a censorship resistant decentralised network, which is done again by taking away power from core and miners.

[Anonymous No.4364514]

>>4364475
Satoshi also wanted BTC to be democratized. Putting a way of manipulating the value of the coin into mining farm hands is a huge step away from that.

[Anonymous No.4364526]

>>4364448
i'm glad we finally agree on something, satoshi's vision is bullshit, and in my opinion decentralisation is fucked on both bitcoin networks for now

[Anonymous No.4364530]

>>4364498
Yes then moving it all to centralized offchain solutions all made by a single entity. Your blind hatred for miners and the p2p ecosystem is absolutely pathetic.

[Anonymous No.4364557]

>>4364514
If you think the price of a 20 billion market cap coin can be manipulated without massive losses to those manipulating it is possible then you are an idiot. I have never sold any BTC for BCH but you faggots are seriously making me consider it as it seems BTC is overrun with stupid money indicating a coming bear market.

[Anonymous No.4364583]

>>4364530
>all made by a single entity
lul all this bcash cuckster rage really does stem from being uneducated as fuck

[Anonymous No.4364586]

>>4364530
no taking it back to it's decentralised component ie the ppl. i respect miners for they work, in the current state, if they can fork bitcoin and call it the true bitcoin, they have all the cards, that is neither p2p nor decentralised

[Anonymous No.4364593]

>>4364530
>all made by a single entity
Thats not even close to correct. Even if it were, you're a foot deep in 8mb blocks, and BTC hasn't done the thing you are decrying yet, and it probably never will because anyone can run lightning.

[Anonymous No.4364601]

>>4364557
>can be manipulated without massive losses to those manipulating
That's exactly why they're doing it through the fork.

[Anonymous No.4364693]

>>4364583
>b-but it's open source!
That's great but your solution will never get added to bitcoin. The exact same reason only blockstream offchains will get added.

[Anonymous No.4364707]

>>4364593
So other teams besides core are working on LN for bitcoin? Other teams get to develop offchains and have them added to bitcoin at any moments notice. No and No.

[Anonymous No.4364738]

>>4364586
BCH competes for the same miners as BTC. Complaining that one is more centralized than the other is completely retarded.
>not p2p
pic related

[Anonymous No.4364749]

>>4364707
>Other teams get to develop offchains and have them added to bitcoin at any moments notice.
>offchain
>added to bitcoin
Why are you so retarded? You don't need to add anything more now, because segregated witness allows for various offchain and onchain scaling solutions.
>So other teams besides core are working on LN for bitcoin?
Yes.
>Other teams get to develop offchain
Yes.

[Anonymous No.4364753]

>>4362700
>individual chinks and conmen who want to make money are a bigger evil than banks who have engineered wars and human misery for the last four hundred years
think you got your priorities mixed up a little bit mate
there's no good guy here, but i'll pick a few con artists over a worldwide mafia... besides who's more evil, might as well pick the evil who's easier to subvert/ignore/defeat
note i'm invested in bitcoin core, because i want to come out on top and kikes have a track record of getting their way... but it'd be better for the world and crypto if bcash won

[Anonymous No.4364771]

>>4364749
Great give me a call when those third party additions make it past core and into bitcoin.

[Anonymous No.4364783]

bitcoin needs bigger blocks. immediately. off-chain bullshit can always be added later to bitcoin cash if jews want to jew but without a scaling solution TODAY bitcoin is useless

[Anonymous No.4364791]

STOP CALLING IT BCASH. It is Bitcoin Cash. Your disrespect has been noted.

[Anonymous No.4364793]

>>4364771
>past core and into bitcoin
I just told you, they don't need to be approved by anyone because they aren't modifications to the protocol.

[Anonymous No.4364808]

>>4364738
currently antmain owns almost half of the hash power and is leading in bch dev. both forks are centralised, not in the same way.
reminder : p2p means peer to peer, don't consider yourself a peer of 5TH / s

[Anonymous No.4364813]

>>4364771
You are so fucking retarded. You don't have to implement code into vote to build a side chain.
Seriously, it wouldn't hurt to educate yourself a bit. Maybe next time you wont get dumped on by Roger and pals.

[Anonymous No.4364816]

>>4364783
Its the other way around, increasing blocksize is like putting a bandaid on a severed artery, Lightning network is like a truss to stop the bleeding.

[Anonymous No.4364829]

>>4364771
third party, lol

[Anonymous No.4364853]

>>4364816
no son either way the game is over, bitcoin is now corporate propriety (chinks or burger choose your team)

[Anonymous No.4364874]

>>4364793
>>4364813
>>4364829
What are some sidechains besides LN that are coming to bitcoin in the near futute? aka sub 2 years.

[Anonymous No.4364900]

>>4364874

[Anonymous No.4364997]

>>4364900
> what is vaporware from neckbeards with zero skin in the game

[Anonymous No.4364999]

>>4364900
That's not answering the question

[Anonymous No.4365017]

>>4364999
Fair enough, but what are you going to do when I spam 8mb transactions with a high enough fee that nobody can use BCH?

[Anonymous No.4365022]

Wasn't Bitcoin Cash the block chain the new technology was added to? It's going to flip BTC soon.

[Anonymous No.4365130]

>>4365017
That would incredible difficult and would cost a lot of money. That entire debate happened when people where moving their bitcoin around earlier this year to get into alts.

[Anonymous No.4365165]

>>4365017
I'm also curious since it seems the other guys left. What would stop us from simply making a sidechain on bitcoin that is just bitcoin with 8mb blocks. If core and blockstream and a vocal majority of the bitcoin community didn't want it to happen could they stop it?

[Anonymous No.4365166]

Bcash is just what the chinks do with everything - a cheap useless knockoff for the foolish.

[Anonymous No.4365188]

>>4365130
>incredible difficult and would cost a lot of money
no, it would be preposterously cheap, I can just pay marginally more than the total fees for the block so far, and bam I bought a whole block of transactions, and I can keep doing that until I run out of money after hundreds of blocks.

>>4365022
>>4365022
>the new technology
No, no 'new' tech, they just increased the block size.

[Anonymous No.4365227]

meme triangle forming. you know what that means.

/screenshot this

[Anonymous No.4365263]

>>4361643
lmao it's literally the opposite
but whatever, I'm pretty sure you're a shill anyways

[Anonymous No.4365266]

>>4365188
It would just take 8x more transactions for 3-4 blocks an hour. Go for it. If your network can't deter simple spam attacks then it's shit.

[Anonymous No.4365461]

>>4365266
Here's the thing, I would 'buy' the block space so nobody else can transactions unless they pay more than me for the space. Since fees are low in bch right now, I can easily fill blocks. I will use 0.2 BCH to make so many outputs that the next time I move them (to the same outputs) they will take up 8mb. Then in the next block if fees are beginning to rise I make 7.9 mb transactions, and the flow becomes a trickle. I can keep at this until I have set a fee floor.

In Bitcoin that 1mb already has an organic fee dynamic and high competition, it would cost 7btc to buy a block in BTC, but only about 1mbtc to buy a bch block.

[Anonymous No.4365528]

holy shit, all of these paid legacy BTC shills. your coin is inferior.

[Anonymous No.4365557]

>>4365461
That seems overly simple. I recall there being a 4mbish block that they mined on bch back in august. The miner had to deliberately mine those spam transactions.

[Anonymous No.4365582]

>>4365557
So it's spam? Even when I'm paying the highest sat/byte for the space? Also, it would be one gargantuan transaction. They would mine it by default of they are configured for profit.

[Anonymous No.4365607]

>>4365582
Must have paid no fee then.

[Anonymous No.4365670]

Just dumped all my DCH into ETH, feels comfy

Last three days have been fucking stressful, now I'm only holding BTC and ETH and I can fucking relax

[Anonymous No.4365752]

>>4365582
I'm reading that less than 2% of the transactions are actually spam. How can less than 2% cause these problems for a year? It's far more realistic that there is just high demand.

[Anonymous No.4365782]

>muh spam on the mempool

when it is probably Core themselves spamming to convince people we need segshit and lightning network vaporware

[Anonymous No.4365788]

I'm definitely not selling my BCH until the unconfirmed transaction issue and sky high fees is solved.
Bitcoin is broken

[Anonymous No.4365878]

I think satoshis vision was the age of altcoins. Bitcoin will get bigger too though.

[Anonymous No.4365960]

So what did I learn today.
>>4364874
That anyone can add sidechains but that doesn't mean anyone is making them besides core and friends. Let alone any of them having a solid timeline.
>>4365165
That this isn't possible due to something called merged-mined sidechains. Would require a fork to function aka consensus.
>>4365752
That spam attacks require a deliberate effort and funds in order to work. But the evidence behind a long term spam attack on bitcoin to increase fees doesn't exist.

[Anonymous No.4366176]

>>4361992
fucken cashtard

[Anonymous No.4366184]

pain and suffering

[Anonymous No.4366313]

>>4363812
>Bitcoin Segwit scales off-chain through the Lightning Network.
b-but the LN isn't even ready

>You have to be retarded to believe they compete in the same sphere.
yeah, one is in imaginary, academic theory-land, and the other in real life