/biz/ - Business & Finance

[Anonymous No.3735762]

has anyone came out as a "crypto investor" to their parents?

don't do it if you haven't

[Anonymous No.3735779]

>>3735762
Not everyone lives in their parents' basement OP

[Anonymous No.3735822]

>when are you going to get a real job, anon?

[Anonymous No.3735838]

>>3735762
don't do it if you haven't

[Anonymous No.3735855]

>>3735762

Sure have. Presented the business model of mining and potential of the crypto space of them a few months ago. Dropped about 10k on mining rigs. Have fully ROI'd them and then some.

I'm now selling the rigs for even more cash. It worked great.

They're really proud of me because I've got a great life, a meaningful career, a beautiful wife... and quit drinking. Despite having everything I could want or need, I'm still ambitious and want to continue improving and achieving. They love it.

Picture related, from my recent vacation to Hawaii.

[Anonymous No.3735891]

>>3735855
>Sure have. Presented the business model of mining and potential of the crypto space of them a few months ago. Dropped about 10k on mining rigs. Have fully ROI'd them and then some.
Are you me?
>a beautiful wife
Oh wait nevermind.

[Anonymous No.3735894]

>>3735762
Why...what happens? I was considering it, since they think I'm looking for a job but I'm actually just making a few thousand a day with crypto.

[Anonymous No.3735907]

>>3735855
Lol you sound like a faggot

[Anonymous No.3735938]

>tell mom about my crypto gains
>she cuts out every article about bitcoin from newspaper to give to me
>articles are always "what is bitcoin" "5 things you need to know about bitcoin" "how to buy bitcoin"

[Anonymous No.3735959]

>>3735762
>came out
I came.

[Anonymous No.3735963]

>>3735855
nice larp kid

now get a real job

[Anonymous No.3735975]

>>3735938
Haha that sound like something my mom would do.

[Anonymous No.3735977]

>>3735855
kys normie

[Anonymous No.3735994]

>>3735963

Stop projecting. We aren't all fucking NEETs here.

[Anonymous No.3735998]

Most people who do this are insecure about their accomplishments and feel the need to brag because they finally made their first $10k by "investing". Keep it to yourself. If you give them investing advice and it fails, they'll hate you.

[Anonymous No.3735999]

>>3735762
NEVER DO IT AHHHHHHHHHHH

I told my parents when I was at 6k profit. My mom almost forced me to get my money out. My dad kept calling it a bubble and fudding. I lost so much money just because I became an emotional trader. I'm now at 35k profit. I will never tell them again until I cash out.

Ooh btw im down 15k in a day. FUCK ME

[Anonymous No.3736020]

>>3735938
kek I can picture this in my head

[Anonymous No.3736022]

>>3735762
Yeah. They think I'm an idiot getting scammed.

Arguing with my dad aboit fiat is the worst ever "but its backed by the government!" NO

[Anonymous No.3736025]

>>3735894
same here, I make more a month than they do but they think I'm depressed hikki NEET who can't work and who plays vidya all day and who only gets welfare.
I mostly leech from them food and cash (lmao ain't spending my own shit) while chillin in my comfy basement, they don't know shit bout my coins and how much I already have.

[Anonymous No.3736058]

>>3736022

Don't present it as anything more than a business opportunity.

Hey dad - check this out. Explosive growth, growing international interest, huge future potential, etc. don't compare it to money. Crypto is a new paradigm, not another dollar. This is literally the World Wide Web 2.0 and we are barely scratching the surface.

> It's 1994 and your dial-up account ran out of minutes for the month.

[Anonymous No.3736075]

>>3736058
>It's 1994 and your dial-up account ran out of minutes for the month.
fuck this

[Anonymous No.3736145]

>>3736075

>every time your pentium 90 crashed it lost the modem drivers

>playing Ultimate Online with hours worth of loot and your computer crashes

>how fast can you log back in to avoid dying or recover your corpse?

Picture related: me fixing my computer and logging back in

[Anonymous No.3736202]

>>3735855
fuck off retard

[Anonymous No.3736220]

>>3736025
ur a nigger

[Anonymous No.3736252]

>>3736202
>>3736220
t. LINK buyer

[Anonymous No.3736315]

I told my mom about it yesterday actually. She wants to give me 1k to invest for her. I told her I’m not going to day trade with it though. Just gonna add it to my stack and she’ll own a .25 of one BTC. Could be a lot of money some day.

[Anonymous No.3736356]

My dad, on the other hand, doesn’t really get it. He’s 75 and has made a lot of money in boomer investing. Basically stocks, IRA’s, 401k, etc. Most boomers outside of the tech world don’t understand the idea of an alternative currency as a hedge against, or an eventual replacement of the dollar. Just like all the other things boomers don’t get about how the world is changing. This is just what happens when you get old. It will happen to us too.

[Anonymous No.3736357]

>>3735855
>>>3735762 (OP)
>Sure have. Presented the business model of mining and potential of the crypto space of them a few months ago.

LOL. . . . . What are you 12?

A grown adult "presenting a business model" to his own parents. How's that codependent relationship with unhealthy boundaries working out for you?

Be sure to let your parents know when your wife has her period too.

Jesus Christ. Fucking millineals.

[Anonymous No.3736365]

I convinced my wife's family to give me 100k, basically her life savings, because I made it sound amazing, like I could get them to be a millionaire within a few years.

Up until now, my entire stack has been about 8k.

Let's hope I don't fuck this up.

[Anonymous No.3736392]

>>3735779
I'm high schooler. My parents first called me virtual freak and all that slurs but then the money came. I invested 10$ and got 400$ in return in like 7 days. My mom would work for a month for that.
Now they support me now and then.
When I grow up I'll invest in stocks and this seems like a great starting point.

[Anonymous No.3736409]

>>3736365
I wish I had the link to the guy who spent his shared savings account on crypto and lost most. Much lulz. And divorce.

You are a fucking idiot btw

[Anonymous No.3736427]

>>3736409
I was in that thread.
But I actually know what I'm doing so we'll be fine.

[Anonymous No.3736447]

>>3736365
I hope you’re not planning on gambling all that money in crypto. Some is ok but you want to spread your risk level across conservative, moderate, and aggressive investments. Buy some municipal bonds and brick and mortar stocks or something.

[Anonymous No.3736449]

>>3736409
>>3736427
>from 100k to 8k
you are basically fucked...

[Anonymous No.3736463]

>>3735762
Already did but tbf I am small time, I had just 2k€ worth of btc and I sold it all yesterday

[Anonymous No.3736465]

>>3736449
I think he said he had 8k up to that point. Now he has 108k, hopefully not all in crypto.

[Anonymous No.3736470]

>>3736465
ah okay

[Anonymous No.3736479]

>>3736463
Why’d you sell, anon?

[Anonymous No.3736485]

>>3736449
I'm pretty sure he means he's 8k up, at least i hope so, or he is indeed royally fucked.

his wife's dad is gonna come arserape him in his sleep.

[Anonymous No.3736492]

>>3735762
What DO I tell them? Or more importantly what do I tell anybody who asks what I do?
Currently dating a girl and have told her I just finished my degree and am looking for a job (neither of which are true). Not sure if I should tell her my plan is to just leech off of her.

[Anonymous No.3736493]

>>3735855

>all that success
>wife

You almost made it.

[Anonymous No.3736502]

>>3735762
I told them over a year ago that they should buy ETH at around $6 and buy BTC at like $500. At first they thought I was crazy, so I never brought it up again until both were mooning. Now I make fun of my dad every chance I can about ETH being $300 and I give him crypto tips all the time so I can then flaunt the gains in his face. I know he'll never follow through with them and he keeps saying "Just wait, it'll all come crashing down." and I get to say "I don't care if it does, I've already cashed out 30x my initial investment." I want to judge them, but I'm sure when my kids tell me to invest in something I won't listen.

[Anonymous No.3736506]

Im a good trader because my father was the best on wall street 1989

they trust me, its in my blood

[Anonymous No.3736519]

>>3736465
108k, yes.
It's in crypto.

[Anonymous No.3736522]

>>3735999
nice get

[Anonymous No.3736540]

>>3735938
> tfw family always gets me normie level 10€ science books but I have a physics degree and I already know this shit by heart

[Anonymous No.3736541]

>>3736502
teach me your secrets. whatst he next eth and what do you currently do?
what do you look out for?
or was ETH the one luck wonder and your still profiting solely of that

[Anonymous No.3736562]

>>3736541
The trick is you have to wait a few years for a good investment like that to come around.

People who just wait for years and years looking for a gem and then bet on it make a lot of money.

[Anonymous No.3736569]

I told my dad and He bought some BTC a few weeks later too.

[Anonymous No.3736593]

>>3736562
you betting on LINK ?

[Anonymous No.3736600]

>>3736365
>My wife's familys money

Oh boy you're in for a world of pain. Better pepper your Angus

[Anonymous No.3736602]

>>3736365
Dude, you will get emotional and you will lose it. That is what happens when you trade with money that you know you can't lose.

[Anonymous No.3736615]

>>3736562
do you discuss stuff with other on a teamspeak or mumble or something? i would love to talk more to someone thats been trading for so long

[Anonymous No.3736632]

>>3736519
That’s a pretty big gamble man. You must have a big penis to be confident enough to risk all your wife’s money.

[Anonymous No.3736702]

>>3736479
Divergence of volume spooked me. It also looks like a h&s is forming. Could be bs but I just didn't feel comfy in there. Got me a little eth though cause it went down for a while and it's the good stuff. Wish I had the time to research icos but I have a day job keeping me busy. Like, link looks good... a few weeks ago when it was still cheap. Well, eth could still benefit from it.

[Anonymous No.3736712]

>>3736593
Flipped the ICO at the top and got out. Not interested.
>>3736600
I'll be ok. I know what I'm doing.
>>3736615
I actually charge for cryptocurrency consulting (about 0.22 ETH per consultation), which I can do over skype. If you're interested, I can give you an email to reach me at.
>>3736632
I'm kind of underplaying it but I actually do know what I'm doing. I'm not just throwing it all in something and speculating.

[Anonymous No.3736724]

>>3736485
You fucking retards should learn to fucking read, he said he had an 8k portfolio before he got the 100k.

[Anonymous No.3736733]

>>3736593
>>3736712
I should clarify that I may be interested in buying back in again later, so that's not a definite thing, but I'm not buying in right at this level yet.

[Anonymous No.3736753]

>>3736357

Haha no. 33. I talk business with my parents. Presenting revenue models and business opportunities is part of my "hey - this is what I'm doing in my life" update when I talk to my folks.

You do have a normal relationship with your parents, right?

[Anonymous No.3736775]

>>3736506
It's bullshit but I believe it

[Anonymous No.3736777]

>>3736733
so what price will you buy in link. i got in at 36 cent. that seemed pretty good to me.

also sure il take your email and see what i can do with it. not sure if i will bite but its probably pretty informative.
i was just wondering if you have like a chat with all kinds of pros

[Anonymous No.3736801]

>>3735762
no but I will tell the job interviewer after he asks me why it took me 10 years to get my degree

[Anonymous No.3736819]

>>3736541
Pretty much this>>3736562

I missed out on bitcoin at $3 because I thought "There's no way this shit will ever take off. It's fake money" Then I forgot about it for a while. I came back after the mt. gox shit and bought some at $500, and ETH was a new coin that people were hyping like crazy so I decided to buy some of that and hold it for a while (even through the DAO hack). Oddly XRP has been my biggest gainer because I bought 150k at 1k sats when btc was $600 and then it went up like crazy. Now I've sold all my eth, btc, and xrp and went into link ICO, loopring, and cindicator ICO. I feel very good about these 3 tokens and will be holding for at least a year.

[Anonymous No.3736844]

>>3735762
Yep my parents keep telling me Mark Cuban says we're in a bubble and I need to listen to him because he has money

[Anonymous No.3736856]

>>3736145
>playing Ultimate Online with hours worth of loot and your computer crashes

Sisters keep picking up the phone to boot you off the internet while you're deep in a dungeon.

I forgot these nightmares.

[Anonymous No.3736857]

>>3736819
yes about ICO why is this expected to do well?

also whats your opinion about REDD and colx?

[Anonymous No.3736868]

>>3736777
I don't have a "big secret chatroom" with pros, but I do look at what other investors are saying, of course.
You can email me at [e-mail] for now.

As for LINK, I got in the ICO, waited for it to reach centralized exchanges with impending news, and sold when I saw the volume start to fall and what seemed like the end of its uptrend. It was as simple as that. If I'm going to buy back in, it will be when I have a similar reason and a plan for when to sell and all that.

[Anonymous No.3736881]

>>3736447
Lol fuck that. Throw it all in on a hype coin right after the listing dump and ride to 2x.

Then start derisking by selling half at 2x and just letting the rest ride.

[Anonymous No.3736905]

>>3736502
This is basically what I did.

I put 150 into the rise ICO at .007 cents per coin. Sold at .35 cents per coin.

WHATDYA THINK ABOUT MY SCAM COINS NOW, DAD

[Anonymous No.3736932]

>>3735938
That's adorable.

Call your mom up and tell her you love her.

[Anonymous No.3736934]

>>3735855
im happy for you anon

[Anonymous No.3737002]

>>3736868
last question. which coin do you sell with? as in when you get out of LINK or ICO do you get BTC for them ot ETH ?

[Anonymous No.3737013]

>>3736392
Rofl your mom worked a month for 400? Where do you live? Venezuela?

[Anonymous No.3737064]

>>3737002
That just depends.. I have different reasons for using either one so I can't say definitively one way or the other.

[Anonymous No.3737164]

>>3735762
if you tell anyone any actual specifics you can mentally benchmark yourself in a way that's not logical depending on how much that person's impression matters to you on a momentary basis. ultimately it's good to get over this probably but it also doesnt really serve you to talk too much about it

[Anonymous No.3737346]

My (literally) poor mother spent twenty years raising 9000$ for me, which was meant as a startup money for buying my own home one day. If I told her I had taken every penny out of the bank and given them to people online, who gave me nothing but a picture of an illegitimate coin that supposedly represent actual currency she would never forgive me for it. But, one day, when I'm a crypto millionaire I will buy her a nice fucking house or something, because damn it she's worked hard all her life and she deserves it

[Anonymous No.3737474]

>>3737346
Wait...did you just say that you lost the $9000 your mother worked hard to give you? What is wrong with you?

[Anonymous No.3737505]

>>3737474
Please learn to read. It's all in crypto but if he told his mother that she'd think it's all gone.

[Anonymous No.3737513]

>>3735762
If you had a real job they'd probably be proud of you for investing in an emerging technology as well.

[Anonymous No.3737558]

>>3736519
>only up 8%

That's fucking pitiful.

[Anonymous No.3737577]

>>3737558
Thats his original 8...

I dont think you guys should be in crypto.

[Anonymous No.3737582]

>>3737558
You're an idiot too.
I started with 8k of my own money. Got 100k from my wife's family. Now I have 108k.

I never said anything about how much I've made with that money and I just acquired the 100k recently.

[Anonymous No.3737629]

>>3737582
Oh. My bad.

So, how are you doing? What's your portfolio breakdown?

[Anonymous No.3737635]

>>3737582
I hope you're good...

There are good coins out there but they are already running.

Don't rush and make sure to derisk on new alts.

You will make a mil in a year tops.

[Anonymous No.3737644]

>>3735855
LOL. You presented a business model to your parents. You took time away from being with your wife to visit your parents and present them with a crypto mining rig business model? Fuck outta here you larping faggot.

[Anonymous No.3737680]

>>3737644
Why would you go elsewhere if you can get the money from mom and das? Seriously why would you? It's just rational.

[Anonymous No.3737697]

>>3737680
You do not know how to read, do you?

[Anonymous No.3738595]

>>3737644

I didn't ask them for money. I'm doing fine. Who asks their parents for 10k for crypto???

>HEY MOM IVE GOT THIS SUPER HIGH RISK SPECULATIVE INVESTMENT. CAN I GAMBLE WITH PART OF YOUR RETIREMENT?

Not gonna happen here. More like:

> Hey dad - have you heard about Ethereum or Zcash or crypto mining? I don't know if I'm reading these charts right but I'm making $4/day mining with my gaming computer. I'm going to try to scale it up with 30 GPUs and see what happens. This is how mining works and what crypto is. If things work out great I'll tell you how it works out and will help you set up equipment if you're interested."


Picture related: my son looking at his future empire

[Anonymous No.3738674]

>>3736493

She's a lot of the reason my success. Things she's pushed me to achieve:

>graduate college. i was about to drop out after 18 months of academic probation.

> quit drinking. alcohol steals time and potential. I wasted a fuck ton of it.

> apply for 3 of my recent promotions. "anon - you need more challenge and I can tell you're bored. this job looks exciting"

>become a father of two. changed my perspective of reality for the best.

[Anonymous No.3738677]

I told my parents a few weeks ago. First I asked them if they knew what BTC was, they said "no idea anon", so I proceeded to explain a little bit. Then I told them how I started with a small amount of 200€ and that it became 1500€ in a couple of months. They were surprised and told me they wanted to invest as well, so they gave me 500€.

Now we have a deal. we started with 2k€ (my 1500€ and their 500€), so 25% of whatever amount I reach, will be theirs.

[Anonymous No.3738708]

>What are you doing soon
>*closes Buttrex* and find the nearest Ark thread
>N-nothing. Looking at porn

[Anonymous No.3738841]

>>3738674
I'm happy for you anon. Hope I make it like you one day. Not just money wise, but also family wise.

[Anonymous No.3738852]

>>3738677
And you're not take a percentage of the top? Why would you risk your parents money when it has literally 0 gain for you?

[Anonymous No.3738859]

>>3735762
>come out as a crypto investor
lmfao you are an actual faggot

[Anonymous No.3738909]

>>3736844
did you tell them that Mark Cuban is also investing in crypto?
guess they should now

[Anonymous No.3738917]

I was up $50k in crypto and ended up losing it and being back to my original investment. My mom would probably kill me if she knew lol.

[Anonymous No.3738937]

>>3735938
Lol, my mom just saves me every paper she can that so much as mentions crypto. She also refers me to stuff she found online about crypto.

She's big into coupons, so she runs across crypto every once in a while.

[Anonymous No.3738959]

>>3735762
I managed to convince my parents that crypto is the next big thing like the internet was.
Guess it helps that they are suddenly seeing all these news articles and TV programs on buttcoins everywhere right after I tell them its going to be huge.

[Anonymous No.3738972]

>>3736356
I can't wait until I start yelling at kids for investing into the organ/tissue trade and "behind the ear" augmentation market.

>Damn kids should be investing in crypto, not these new-fangled sub-dermal holographic chipsets

[Anonymous No.3738973]

>>3738917
What ath's did you buy my man?

[Anonymous No.3738976]

Honestly, I got excited when I first started and told everyone I was into crypto. Made 500k, moved far away from all the poorfags in my life but brought my mom because I love her. I don't mind taking care of her. She took care of me.

[Anonymous No.3739001]

>>3738909
Mark Cuban is personally involved in a pump and dump shitcoin.

[Anonymous No.3739014]

>>3735762
its like the only thing i have going for me in my life right now so you bet my parents know. i have over a quarter million in crypto though so it is already a life changing amount. kind of wish i wouldn't have told anyone though.

[Anonymous No.3739027]

The way I explained it.....most people never get in on the ground floor of anything their whole lives. So it's tough for them to recognize it when they see it.

[putting No.3739038]

>>3738976
thats how you do it son

[Anonymous No.3739066]

>>3738976
Nice. everyone thought i got rich on the 2013 bubble because i blabbered on about bitcoin so much back then but really i was just buying hash and mdma. i remember buying a pound of weed for around 150btc, packs of 100g mdma for about 150 btc as well. spent well over 1000btc on the first SR and didnt keep any of them. this bubble i made sure not to miss though and have a decent amount (about 100btc) saved up that i will hodl forever.

[Anonymous No.3739102]

>>3735762
Parents know I threw some money in. They probably think a few 100s. I actually put in around $1500 and am at $2500 now. Dad sometimes sends me BTC articles he finds online, like the tulip one. Had a good laugh with him when it turned out J.P Morgan bought some BTC after fudding. Roommates and some friends know. If I choose the right shitcoins the coming weeks and go $10k+ I'm probably not telling them.

[Anonymous No.3739110]

>>3735762
I told my mom about my sick gains...she started yelling at me telling me to sell everything despite never having invested in anything in her life. I said no and she just called me greedy and stupid. Now she asks about my current portfolio value every single day and I can't make it stop. I think I permanently changed our relationship just by telling her. She started pressuring me to buy a house for us (we live in an apartment) when that's the last thing I ever want to do. Feelsbadman

[Anonymous No.3739135]

>>3739110
Move out. She sounds like a gains goblin.

[Anonymous No.3739143]

>>3738595
nigger baby

[Anonymous No.3739162]

>>3739110
telling any of the women in your life about money is just retarded. Once you say a number, they begin thinking of a percentage tp which they can spend

[Anonymous No.3739164]

>>3739135
I want to move out extremely badly but she's a single mom and I can't leave her. I feel extremely stuck and I know if I buy a house I'll be stuck with her even longer. Especially because I'll have no money left to keep in crypto.

[Anonymous No.3739226]

>>3735762
My mum said "Well, don't bet what you can't afford to lose!"

I guess that's alright.

[Anonymous No.3739255]

>>3736025
kek u sound like a bitch

[Anonymous No.3739269]

>>3737629
I have strategies that I follow and charge people to explain and teach but I will say that it involves large market cap coins.

I'd have to be absolutely insane to throw all my money into some Mooncoin-like garbage.

[Anonymous No.3739346]

>>3735891
lel

[Anonymous No.3739443]

>>3739143

Nah. My wife's Chinese and I'm a white dude. New master race.

[Anonymous No.3739456]

>>3738595
is this haula, oahu?

[Anonymous No.3739473]

>>3739456
Hyatt Residence Club in Kapalua, Maui. Beautiful property.

[Anonymous No.3739512]

>>3735762

>don't do it

Lol this

[Anonymous No.3739517]

Yeah, better than calling myself a NEET

[Anonymous No.3739557]

>>3735938

My mom asked me what I thought about bitcoin in 2010. She said it sounded interesting and maybe would turn out to be something big.

I told her that it was a total pyramid scheme where the early investors would simply dump on the late investors and it was too late to make any money in it since the price was already over a dollar and would never get much higher.

Sorry mom.

[Anonymous No.3739589]

>>3739143
This

[Anonymous No.3739663]

>>3739557
You destroyed your family

[Anonymous No.3739686]

>>3739663

I was just having so much fun posting "bitcoin more like buttcoin amirite haw haw haw" that I lost all sense of perspective.

[Anonymous No.3739719]

>>3739686
/r/buttcoin. A subreddit full of so many people unable to deal with their sour grapes that they've gone insane and decided to form a collective to comfort each other.

[Anonymous No.3739750]

>2011
BEGGED THEM TO GET INTO BITCOIN. They didn't listen to me. I was a college stoner woth terrible grades.

>2017
Suggested that they should get into OMG. They drop $15k in it and loan me $20k to do the same. They're welcome for my continued foresight.

[Anonymous No.3739751]

>>3735762
I have. They give me money to invest now. It just means more money from day trading for me.

[Anonymous No.3739927]

I did and got 20 thousand dollars to invest with
Protip: be a single child in a well off family

[Anonymous No.3739961]

>>3739750
you told them to buy the top of OMG huh? lmao

[Anonymous No.3740054]

>>3739961
>top
>

[Anonymous No.3740079]

>>3735762
>don't do it if you haven't

[Anonymous No.3740115]

>>3739927

I did the same and got $300 per month lmao

Still free money tho so I'm grateful. We'll all make it

[Anonymous No.3740136]

I told my dad about my gainz and now he's waiting to /buythedip/

[Anonymous No.3740163]

Yes, he thinks it's tulip mania.

My gains suck too so it's hard to convince him.

Turned 1800 into 2890 this month thanks to walton, odn, and link. You can tell I lost a shit ton (thanks bitshares, thanks verge).

I need a 10x so bad.

[Anonymous No.3740223]

I did, my dad even invested $500 in IOC.

[Anonymous No.3740458]

>>3735762
kek'd again
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-09-12/dimon-doubles-down-my-daughter-bought-bitcoin-it-went-now-she-thinks-she-genius

My dad actually helped me see the potential of crypto by sharing a story about ethereum back in the frontier days. But I'm definitely one of teh lucky ones.

[Anonymous No.3740492]

>>3736365
Jesus fucking Christ, man. What are you doing??? Just lock that shit away in a bank account and let it sit there for a year and give it back and be like welp I broke even, oh well!

[Anonymous No.3740502]

>>3739443
good for you anon
>>3735855

[Anonymous No.3740573]

>>3740492
I have a very good method, don't worry.
I don't share it here because it works for me.

[Anonymous No.3740589]

>>3740323

Literally just made a thread about how my dad is doing dumb things with this info