Monero Technical Discussion

[Anonymous No.28431901]

I hear a lot about Atomic Swaps, and many of you guys are like "Oh don't worry, Atomic Swaps will fix that" without having a single bit of knowledge about the tech behind it.

So can anyone explain Atomic Swaps for us?

To me –swapping coins between different chains under different authorities (eg. blockstream for BTC and the Monero Community for XMR) sounds like magic.

Also, how could this 'Atomic Swap'-system figure out how much a single XMR is worth compared to say, a single BTC? Surely there must be fiat value involved somehow? Explain like we're 5 year old brainlets please.

Oh yeah, also general Monero tech discussion, feel free to talk about anything tech related.

[Anonymous No.28432232]

bump

[Anonymous No.28432234]

>>28431901
The thing I don't understand about Atomic Swaps is people keep saying it'll replace things like Cake Wallet, but don't you still need a place to find people to swap with? Atomic Swaps are just the technical mechanism, you still need the marketplace, right?

[Anonymous No.28432307]

IM FINNA STACK THESE MFS UP.
I don't even expect or care if these appreciate greatly (regardless, i think they will), I just think that having a decent stack in a cold wallet will be a blessing in 10-20 years. Anyone else feel this way?

[Anonymous No.28432346]

>>28432234

Great question. I feel like there's a lot of holes in the idea of Atomic Swaps.

People praise it but have no idea how it would work.

[Anonymous No.28432463]

>>28432307
Me.

[Anonymous No.28432472]

>>28432307
Bro this is a tech discussion thread.

Go to the general if you wanna circle jerk with other monerofags.

[Anonymous No.28432737]

>>28431901
Technically, it sucks.

[Anonymous No.28432774]

Awfully quiet in here.

Guess none of us actually know how Atomic Swaps would work.

[Anonymous No.28432799]

>>28432472
Oh fuck off. How's your jannie application doing?

[Anonymous No.28432888]

>>28432737
Yeah because trusted setups and optional privacy is the way to go.

>NGMI

[Anonymous No.28433041]

>>28432346
From the little I've read I've gathered that it works on similar principles like lightning does. Hash locked contracts, I suppose you find some random internet person that agrees to swap X amount of XMR for X amount of BTC.

You both agree on the amount. When you both have deposited the coins the transaction will automatically take place.

Can someone else explain better? My urge to know more increases.

[Anonymous No.28433058]

>>28432799
>Oh yeah, also general Monero tech discussion, feel free to talk about anything tech related.

nigga can't you read?

[Anonymous No.28433113]

>>28431901
Lol. How do you know how much a single pizza is compared to USD. Seriously, I think most of /biz/ never studied economics in their lives.

[Anonymous No.28433174]

>>28431901
>>28432232
Newfag and redditor detected. Two red flags. If you don't know what those two red flags were... yeah, you not knowing that, that's because you're a newfag and redditor.

[Anonymous No.28433178]

>>28433041
So lets say I have 1 XMR that I want to swap for 1 BTC, and a guy on the other end wants to swap 1 BTC for 1 XMR.

Do the coins disappear from respective chain?

[Anonymous No.28433226]

>>28433113
What does this mean anon. A pizza costs ~$15 dollars

[Anonymous No.28433298]

>>28431901
XMR is a 150iq hold.

[Anonymous No.28433362]

>>28433174
I've been here for like 4 years but who cares lol. It's not like I take pride on lurking on a basement dweller online forum. Go ahead call me a newfag. Better than being an acknowledged nolifer oldfag.

Now please keep it on topic.

[Anonymous No.28433363]

>>28432472
The tech discussion is a circle jerk because the tech is so great that it makes me bust a nut.
Atomic Swaps are not vaporware and you can research them yourself, DuckDuckGo is your friend, but since you're asking and not doing any searching, I'll risk making myself look like an idiot:
The way I understand it, it acts like a DEX except P2P. 2 people send funds to an address with a key, you send someone else the key, I imagine that you wouldn't just be sending the key to someone randomly as in, actually messaging them, I feel like someone would build something around this so you can be swapping with people without having to agree to the amounts via chatting, and then another address is created, and the funds are claimed
I'm not a blockchain genius, don't shit on me, you can Google this shit
>>28433178
No? You get eachothers XMR and BTC respectively I think

[Anonymous No.28433429]

>>28433041
There are apparently two separate proposals, one is PayMo (which is basically a lightning type thing for Monero), but there's also a separate proposal which uses some fancy cryptography to ensure locking around a transaction on Bitcoin's chain and Monero's chain simultaneously. I think it requires taproot or something else on Bitcoin's side.

[Anonymous No.28433516]

>>28431901
As far as I'm aware atomic swaps actually requires Bitcoin to implement an update which is... expecting a lot. Bitcoin devs are fucking retards, seriously. They pretend to "work" while leeching money from Blockstream which Adam Back allows, because it's nothing compared to how much money he makes from Bitcoin continuing to stay broken. Us Monerochads really shouldn't be pinning our hopes on another chain.

[Anonymous No.28433633]

>>28433363

Ok this kinda makes sense, ty for answer. I tried duckduckgoing but too brainlet for the subject.

[Anonymous No.28433669]

>>28433226

The price of something is determined by the agreement of two parties. Usually the market price will be used as comparison, offer and demand dictate it. I check the prices on CMC, offer 300 XMR for 1 BTC, both agree and swap.

[Anonymous No.28433683]

>>28432737
Zcash lmao

[Anonymous No.28433919]

>>28433516

True. Why would blockstream hurt their own chain by giving it the ability to funnel value to another chain. Makes no sense.

[Anonymous No.28433953]

>>28433633
Honestly I'm brainlet aswell, other guys in thread have good answers too, it involves hashlocks and smart contracts

[Anonymous No.28433960]

Don't understand jack about it either, I think that renVM would be the thing that fixes XMR's problems and adds more utility to it

[Anonymous No.28433970]

>>28433516
taproot was merged in october
https://www.coindesk.com/taproot-merged-bitcoin-core
but idk much about this shit, either way atomic swaps will come in an unknown time

[Anonymous No.28434493]

>>28431901
>>28432234
>>28432774

Atomic swaps do not require a third party.
You send your monero to another monero address and the other person sends bitcoin to a bitcoin address. Using the respective block chains, and the keys for the new addresses, you essentially have a contract which if confirmed (neither side is scamming) then the funds are unlocked and the respective sides get the private keys for the wallets for the crypto they are swapping towards.
The key thing to remember is that somebody observing bitcoins blockchain would see this happening but they would have no way of knowing that person is swapping Bitcoin for monero. It would just look like the person is sending Bitcoin to somebody else.
Current coin swap services can log metadata so this is concerning for people. Plus, you are putting your trust in that service and eating an extra charge to use that service.

[Anonymous No.28434724]

>>28433174
imagine buying the bags of 2011-2013 OGs at the top in 2017 and browsing 4chan for years of bear market while the people who sold you those bags were making profit in the greatest bull market in history in the stock market and being proud of it because you think you're an "oldfag" LOL

[Anonymous No.28434964]

>>28434493
what are the techincal challenges that are holding the devs up atm? does anyone know?

[Anonymous No.28435072]

Why is XMR pumping right now?
I want to buy a stable coin and hold because I hate banks so much it's unreal

[Anonymous No.28435618]

>>28433178
I think you, as a Monero holder, have to create a buttcoin wallet first. The Bitcoin then gets transfered to that address.. Would suck to pay double the transfer fees though...

>>28433429
Interesting, thanks Monerofren, will read up on it now.

[Anonymous No.28435754]

>>28434493
This is the "oracle" way.
There are other crypto proposals that use partial hashes, so the simple act of withdrawing from one address gives the other party the information needed to withdraw from the second address.
You can do it with chains that uses the same hashes (not BTC and XBR), or use a different chain just for the information.
Math is a bit complex and I wouldn't trust the first try...

Completely trust-less as crypto should be, no need for oracles.

[Anonymous No.28436393]

>>28433516
Not really. COMIT works without taproot. Farcaster would work with taproot. But farcaster is seeming like any empty promise.

[Anonymous No.28436707]

>>28434964
Well the good news is that there are both monero devs working on something and private companies so even if the monero team runs into road blocks the growth in research has already developed to the point where we are waiting for coders to build these things and for it to be tested.
>>28435754
Yeah atomic swaps need to be trust less.
I am way dumbing down the math because I don’t entirely understand it, but if this kind of thing interests you then for the dense technical discussion you can check out the github or the ccs proposal. The actual scheme has been created, it just needs to be built.
>>28436393
It’s still early anon. These guys created the mechanism so I would have more faith.

[Anonymous No.28436724]

>>28434964
The biggest one is that XMR has no script functionality.

So all the script shit has to happen in the other coin.

Second one is that XMR uses a different elleptic curved compared to most crypto. Which means more complex math to gaurentee a private key swap.

Apparently farcaster is waiting for taproot which would simplify some of this math.

[Anonymous No.28436734]

>>28431901
>>28432234
>>28432346
>>28433041
>>28433178
>>28433516
I'll do my best. I'm nowhere close to an expert. The general idea for atomic swaps in general (meaning cross chain trustless transactions in general) is that you do special transactions on each chain that either both go through or both fail. The general format is:
Bob and Alice want to exchange 1 bobCoin for 1 aliceCoin
Bob creates a transaction on bobChain with a special key
Alice can see the transaction and can see the amount and a sort of public key from it
Without the special key, she can't redeem the funds and complete the transaction on bobChain and claim her bobCoin
Satisfied the offer is as promised, she creates a transaction on aliceChain
This transaction is created with the key she derived from Bob's transaction
Because Bob has the special key, he can redeem Alice's transaction on aliceChain when he is satisfied the counteroffer is as promised.
When claiming his aliceCoin, by cryptographic nature, his special key can be derived by Alice
Alice now has the special key, and claims her bobCoin.

(Part 1/2)

[Anonymous No.28436922]

>>28436734
They key part is that the transaction can be done without any third party and is completely trustless. Either both parties get their coins or, if one party times out, the contracts return coins to the original address (this functionality is included in bitcoin). The trick with Monero is two fold. One, bitcoin and monero use different cryptographic functions as the basis of their cryptography, and thus the typical method of establishing contracts that can share keys across chains and leak the right information is impossible. It was actually thought for awhile BTC<->Monero atomic swaps were mathematically impossible because of the differences in their cryptography, but very clever people devised a way to make it work, *without* updating either coin. Second, the general format for atomic swaps calls for coins to be refunded if the tx doesn't go through, which is a feature in most coins, but not monero because of the privacy features. Again, clever people devised a way for it to work. The details of the swap's mechanisms can be found here with a much better explanation:
https://localmonero.co/knowledge/monero-atomic-swaps
Yes, you would still need some kind of an exchange for match making for high volume, but it could be trustless, off-chain, decentralized, and fast; and you could find a counterparty manually. No, the technology does not fundamentally require an update to bitcoin or monero. I believe one of the teams working on them is planning to leverage already planned and unrelated bitcoin upgrades to provide features, such as a privacy upgrade that would make the bitcoin transactions indistinguishable from regular transactions, so a chain analysis would show no evidence an atomic swap took place.

(Part 2/2)

[Anonymous No.28437058]

>>28436707
Perhaps anon. But keep in mind the deadline is in 4 months and not even stage 1 is complete. They have 4 months to complete EVERYTHING. It seems fairly unlikely. Kudos to their research.

[Anonymous No.28437198]

tell me, is now good time to buy more? i have 40 xmr and I want at least 100 but I fear there is huge crash coming soon

[Anonymous No.28437678]

>>28437198
As good of a time as any.
No guarantee of gains in satoshi, but certainly Monero is not being pumped right now...

[Anonymous No.28438006]

>>28436922
Thanks man, I'll screencap your posts in case the question pops up again.