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281979 No.281979 [Reply] [Original]

Bitcoin sucks right?

From my limited understanding, it seems to combine the worst aspects of unregulated stocks with the core of idea using it as currency. It is supposed to be above manipulation, unlike fiat currency, but it seems to me the opposite is true.

It doesn't offer any benefits in use, except the "promise" that the coins will appreciate in value. But I feel like it is almost a pyramid scheme that favors the early investors only. Every one else is either a sucker bound to lose money, or at *best* gain a small amount if they manage to sell out of it, but that amount is less than would be gained from say, a traditional index fund.

Am I totally wrong here?

>> No.282130

>>281979
I'd have to disagree with you on a few things.

Its true that it does seemed to be easily manipulated and much less stable unlike fiat currency. The idea is that it doesn't have a central back that chooses when to issue more money so its evenly distributed.

I'd disagree that its a pyramid scheme, it does have some intrinsic value unlike gold. It can be infinitely divided and used as an instant form of payment through out the entire world with minimal fees. The concept is really nice, but you are right it heavily favours early investors and has basically turned in to a speculative shit show.

If a government would adopt an official crypto currency it would be something that would benefit the average person. You could carry money on your phone and pay for goods and services with other people for almost no fees and fuck over banks. But that isn't going to happen. So basically I see it being a shit show for now.

>> No.282150

It is a telecommunication network with a robust protocol that restricts the emission of coins as a hard coded finite amount is reached. The benefits are in the impossibility of debasement, the ease of use and the monetary sovereignty being in the hands of the individual.

>> No.282202

>>282150
I hear a lot of buzzwords, but nothing that translates into a superiority over traditional currency on a card or a third party like paypal.

I guess it's nice the coins are anonymous for some people, but it isn't a draw for me. Everything I buy online gets shipped to my house anyway, so it's not like the vendor doesn't know who I am.

>> No.282212

>>282202
>buzzwords
>anonymity non-sequitur
pls into reading comprehension

>> No.282219

>>282212
>It's easy to use.
So us fiat currency online.
>Its secure.
So is a credit union account. And those are insured to boot.
>You are sovereign.
Sounds nice, but so what? I as an individual don't control the market value of the coins, so I'm no more sovereign than I am over fiat. And the market flucatates wildly making it impossible to estimate the mid or long term worth of the coin.

Plus stuff like the MTGOX double spend fiasco shows weakness.

I honestly want to know what it offers me as a regular end user, if I buy into Bitcoin in 2014.

>> No.282227

>>281979
Bitcoins aren't supposed to be above every type of manipulation. Just government control. And yeah, they are treated pretty much like extremely volatile stock that can be exchanged as currency. The (alleged) purpose for the creation of Bitcoins is to provide an alternate method of payment that would one day be so widely accepted that they could be treated as a real currency with a stable value.

>> No.282234

>>282202
>I heard a lot of buzzwords

Because you're stupid

>> No.282236

>>282219
>fiat currency online
something like m-pesa would not require you to have a smartphone to access a webpage or app, just a dumb flip phone.
>bank account
the point of bitcoin is to escape bank fees
>no more sovereign than I am over fiat
at least you get to keep your bitcoin rather than have your account frozen or replaced with government bonds
>MTGOX
it was a failure on their part to correctly implement the protocol, I thought.

I get where you are coming from, it really does not offer much yet in terms of usability (which is the point) but the potential is there, and there lies more potential with alternatives

>> No.282238

>>282219
>if I buy into Bitcoin in 2014

Well if you're just buying BTC, you'll probably make a pretty nice return in the next few months.

In terms of being a merchant and accepting BTC. It's easy and fast as shit, just that, is enough for people to care. Want to earn BTC? Make an address for free.

>> No.282241

>>282234
>You're just dumb!
>I'll show you!
>*No real arguments*

I want to like Bitcoin, I like diversity, but I need to examine it for flaws. And so far every time the cult of Bitcoin is prodded for answers they get snappy and/or unjustiably smug.

>> No.282246

>>282241
it's been the exact opposite for me the last few months. it's like you don't want your comfy fiat kleptocracy prodded. stop ruining capitalism for yourselves.

>> No.282247

>>282236
MTGOX changes exchange fees doesn't it? Isn't that just defeating the point of escaping bank fees?

I like that it can't be frozen. But I use a credit union, which has a history of not being retarded, and I guess I trust them enough. More than a bank, and more than jumping into BTC. For now.

>> No.282250

>>281979
I don't know shit about cyrpto currencies but I bought 1 bitcoin last week for like $360 and sold it today for about 500.

Thats good money for a broke college student.

>> No.282262

>>282247
exchanges aren't banks! you need to be your own bank.

>> No.282272

We really need a sticky regarding this

Bitcoin is not an investment. Bitcoin is not a pyramid scheme. Bitcoin is a fun idea that served its goal for things like silkroad. Bitcoin is now just a ridiculus gamble, anyone that actually supports bitcoin has backed the fuck out already since it's now the playtoy of the "crypto traders" leeching even bigger idiots. Once the fad dies out then the fate of bitcoin can be talked about, until then it's just a rollercoaster.

>> No.282346
File: 370 KB, 900x900, Bitcoin_euro[1].png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
282346

>>281979
>It doesn't offer any benefits in use

I could send you $100,000 right now from Afghanistan to Antarctica for ten cents instantly. It would be verified six times per hour by a 45petahash supercomputer. Bitcoin is obviously WORTHLESS. You're always just so right, JP.

>> No.282350

>>282346

Then what does he do with the $100,000?

If he tries to deposit that into his checking account, the IRS will definitely be knocking on the door

>> No.282376

>>282346
>I could send you $100,000 right now
But you would still have to sell the BTC to get the $100,000 in USD right? Because you are selling a bulk of it you would not be able to get the same value as when it was bought as selling that much drives value down unless you sold it over a long period of time.
>It would be verified six times per hour by a 45petahash supercomputer
Why should we care about this? Government agencies use this type of encryption all the time. So BTC is a little more secure than banks. When was the last time you heard of a brute force attack into a secure banking network? It would take about 6 months to plan and execute and the last person who attempted it was tracked down and prosecuted. The only reason banks don't use the same level of cryptography that the government does is because they don't need to.

>> No.282381

>>282272
>anyone that actually supports bitcoin has backed the fuck out already since it's now the playtoy of the "crypto traders"

Sauce? No supporter has backed out. Only a few weak handed speculators, that we don't even want anyway, have left.

>> No.282394

>>282350
>Then what does he do with the $100,000?
>>282376
>But you would still have to sell the BTC to get the $100,000 in USD right?

Over 4k physical locations and 30k online sites.

http://coinmap.org/

>> No.282398

Isn't the world finally legislating the whole bitcoin thing? I think they're going to tax it.

>> No.282404

>>282376
>The only reason banks don't use the same level of cryptography that the government does is because they don't need to.

you're actually this retarded

>> No.282440

>>282404
Great argument lol.

>> No.282448

Bitcoin just needs more people using it. More people would make it harder to manipulate

>> No.282451

>>282394
Then why even bring up $100,000 USD if you are not really sending $100,000 USD? In reality you are sending BTC. Huge difference.

>> No.282453

>>282346
>JP
Are you implying I've been shutting down JPMorgan forum sliders all day? Holy shit what a good feeling

>> No.282454

>>282451
I'm screencapping this post. Thx for the comedy gold.

>> No.282457

>>282453
Sadly, you are just debating with common people with common sense. I wish it was more shady and conspiratorial than that, my friend, it would make for a good story.

>> No.282464

Bitcoins are

>Extremely difficult to counterfeit
>Not printed by anybody in particular

Those two factors alone make it much more trustworthy in the long term than any fiat currency

>> No.282470

>>282464
When it gets real world goods or at the very least highly valuable sought after virtual goods maybe even market in black market traceless anonymous purchasing THEN bitcoin will be more then just a fun thing for marketers to play around with.

If they can get an agreed upon version of bitcoin accepted on amazon or ebay and some porn sites THEN you'll have something.

>> No.282480

>>282457
LMFAO

>> No.282485

>>282470
Bitcoin can already purchase you valuable crap. People have bought cars, guns, pizza, all sorts of different stuff with it. The problem is that you can't exactly use Bitcoin in convenience stores (yet).

>> No.282492

>>282485
Why would you buy anything with it if it is going to be worth $50k a coin like you guys say. What are you, stupid?

>> No.282501

>>282492
I sure hope people recognize that they're possibly becoming another 10 million dollar pizza story

>> No.282508

>>282492
Coins can be subdivided, not everything will have to be in prices divisible by 50K

>> No.282507

>>282492
What is division

>> No.282509

>>282501
The levels of autism in this thread are amazing. BTC shills are funny as shit lol. At least it makes for good entertainment.

>> No.282510

>>282485

None of those things were actually purchased with Bitcoins.

Read the stories and you will find that the car dealerships treated it as they would with foreign currency. Meaning that the buyer first converted the bitcoin to USD and then bought the cars

Same thing with Pizza. You pay another person with bitcoins and they order the pizza online and use USD to pay.

This is how virtually everything being purchased with bitcoin is going.

When bitcoins are actually being used independently of the USD, then you can say that you're actually buying something with bitcoin

>> No.282511

>>282509
JPM pls

>> No.282512

>>282510
It's a matter of time, really

>> No.282515

>>282507
You guys are seriously missing the point. If you buy a PlayStation 4 with 1 BTC and BTC is worth $50k in a year like you idiots say, you essentially lost $50k that you could have kept if you held on to it.

>> No.282520

>>282515
Exactly. Deflationary currencies push down the value of goods, because they provide the buyer incentive to save up and not buy things. Inflationary currencies favors big spenders.

>> No.282523

>>282515
welcome to speculative commodities

>> No.282530

>>282520
Exactly. So people will never take BTC seriously until people actually start buying shit with it (and im not talking about a pizza here and there), and people will not start buying shit with it until it stabilizes as a real currency would. Its a catch 22. No wonder BTC has been tanking over the last few months with only a few minor bubbles.

>> No.282531

>>282515
That's true of every currency that's ever existed, how valuable it is today may not be the same tomorrow. What if buy that console and BTC drops like a stone? Then I saved a lot of money.

>> No.282532

>>282510
>When bitcoins are actually being used independently of the USD, then you can say that you're actually buying something with bitcoin
There is quite a bit of software available for fixed values of bitcoin/litecoin, that don't change dependent on its power versus USD.
Granted most of the software available to purchase like this is meant for the management of bitcoin, but that's exactly what you're asking for, like paying USD for tax software.

There are also contractors that you rent hardware hashing power from for the cost of bitcoin, once again independent of its present value in USD.

>> No.282536

>>282530
"Real currencies" aren't stable you gigantic fucktard. They inflate and deflate like any other currency, all the fucking time. They only "seem" to stay at the same value due to ridiculous levels of government manipulation and control, which is all bullshit anyway.

The dollar used to be deflationary, once upon a time when the government and the people were not fully retarded. Parents told kids to save up because your money would be worth more down the road, which is the exact same thing you said in your original post.

>> No.282543

>>282536
>Parents told kids to save up because your money would be worth more down the road, which is the exact same thing you said in your original post.

This is one thing that bothers me when people argue in favor of inflating a currency. If the value of the currency is going to drop, then people are motivated to spend money in ways that would be otherwise irresponsible.

>> No.282547

>>282532
>once again independent of its present value in USD.

How exactly does that work?

If they don't compare it to the USD, then what kind of arbitrary value are they giving it to base the value of their services on?

>> No.282546

>>282543
Yes. It also drives prices up, which pretty much balances it out.

>> No.282551

>>282536
Wtf are you even talking about. They are stable. The value doesnt shoot up 5000% and then drop 75% on a whim in relation to other currencies. That is because real currencies have a central authority governing them which Bitcoin doesnt have you fucking ignorant backwoods heehaw. Inflation and deflation is steady. There has been nothing steady about the value of BTC because people are only considering what it is worth in terms of cashing out to USD. People for the most part want to get rich off of selling it and they dont give a shit about your lofty principles.

>> No.282552

>>282547
>How exactly does that work?
They set the price to 0.1 BTC. When the power of BTC versus the dollar changes, they did not alter the price of the softwar from 0.1BTC@1000USD to 0.2BTC@500USD. It's still 0.1 BTC.

>> No.282553

>>282547
>then what kind of arbitrary value are they giving it to base the value of their services on?

There are non-arbitrary values to compare currencies to. Such as, 2 USD can buy you 1 loaf of bread.

>> No.282554
File: 114 KB, 2056x954, RDPz54G.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
282554

>>282530
>>282520
it's called hoarding, yes. but the price is determined by how much of the bitcoin is moving at any time as per Metcalfe's law. there are too many people able to easily join and use the network for hoarding to do anything. the people who hold hundreds or thousands of bitcoin will also spend larger amounts of theirs as the value rises.

>> No.282555

just finished a termpaper regarding Bitcoin, price will definitely rise, only goverments banning it can have a negative impact on it's value

>> No.282566

>>282552

So it still uses the USD as a baseline, but it just uses an average value of .1BTC to value their services.

>> No.282573

>>282554
Until you guys give me an example of people spending Bitcoin in large quantities I am going to call bullshit on this one. I think the majority of BTC holders are hoarders and the rest are daytraders and new investors.

>> No.282574

>>282566
>So it still uses the USD as a baseline
Yeah, if you want to think that way you can. That's probably easier for you, to just say "right, I understood it all along, I'm so smart."
It could be that their value of 0.1 BTC was based on the amount of competition for coins, hardware beefiness, energy consumption, and time spent to generate the coins.

>> No.282696

>>282573
What are you stupid?

>> No.282709

>>282696
No but you're a faggot. See? I can do it too.

>> No.282714
File: 1 KB, 101x98, btc.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
282714

>>282709
xD everyone is hoarding

>> No.282722

>>282714
That is not people spending BTC on goods and services that is daytraders you cum guzzling whore

>> No.282727
File: 28 KB, 599x501, btc.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
282727

>>282722
Check the blockchain buddy

>> No.282726

>>282451
Because he knows you are going to be thinking in usd, and so is everyone else for now
BTC is way too volatile right now for use as an independent currency honestly, however in about 2-5 years that will change
For now it's a speculative Rollercoaster until it takes over (which it will, I can explain why if you don't already know)

>> No.282731

>>282727
Wtf does that even prove?

>> No.282732

>>282510
Right now most people still don't really understand bitcoin's potential, most of the places that offer things "for bitcoin" which actually just use BitPay are just seeing it as a way to get more business and publicity
However, what do you think happens when every single place uses BitPay and bitcoin value is more stable..well, why convert to USD at all?

>> No.282734

>>282731
That money gets moved between wallets. Which is what you inquired about?

>> No.282736

>>282734
I am not inquiring. I am telling you people daytrade this shit. Just because a lot of BTC sales are done outside of exchanges (i.e. localbitcoin) doesnt mean it isnt all just arbitrage. The majority of everyone else who doesnt daytrade hoards it.

>> No.282737

>>281979
it offers benefits

>> No.282744

>>282736
metcalfe's law tells you even daytrading increases market cap. whether or not they're for goods or services is regardless. any new users on the network increases price and thus incentive for hoards to be used

>> No.282757

>>282744
Daytraders arent new users. There are as many people who lost money trying to daytrade as there are people that made money. And no a price increase isnt an incentive for Bitcoin to be used. It is an incentive for Bitcoin to be sold for something that is welcomed EVERYWHERE as payment, USD. Trying paying your mortgage in Bitcoin if you dont understand what I mean

>> No.282761

>>282757
>reading comprehension
I said hoards, not bitcoin in general

>> No.282766

>>282761
Why would I assume anything but Bitcoin if we are talking about Bitcoin? Did we jump to the topic of hoarding beanie babies all of the sudden and you didnt tell me?

>> No.282777
File: 92 KB, 950x534, satoshygddt.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
282777

>>282766

>> No.283034

>>282130
>it does have some intrinsic value unlike gold
No. Being infinitely divided does not give it inherent value. And the things that you pay for when you get credit cards (You know if someone steals your card, and you report it immediately, the credit card company will usually guarantee your loss?) are not present with bitcoin. If someone gets access to your wallet its all over.

>> No.283140

all of you guys in this thread are in need of some serious sex, alchohol, and drugs.
CHILL the fuck OUT!
invest in the McRib or chicken nuggets.
invest in marijuana (actually thats not soooo dumb)
invest in hookers!
spend your money.
live your life
make new money.
spend it again.
make new money.
spend it again
and so on and so forth.
BITCOINS SUCK MEGA PENIS ERUPTIONS BRAHH

>> No.283322

>>283140

>invest in chicken nuggets

Don't you fucking say that. Don't you FUCKING say that. I will seriously go out at 2:13 AM and get some huge fucking number of chicken nuggets, I swear to god I will do it.

>> No.283341

>>283034
Bitcoin works like cash not like credit.

If someone gets wallet full of cash it is also over.

>> No.283344

>>282555
got trips btw.. not lying here

>> No.283368

>>283341
Which is why we don't put more than a couple hundred in our wallet.

>> No.283373

>>282381
>source on an anonymous currency
>implying you can justify yourself either

No one actually supporting bitcoin would want this ridiculous amount of publicity and escalation of value. It can't be used as a currency without stable value, the best way to get that is to stop feeding the hype. Bitcoin will never be mainstream so even the publicity is useless.