/biz/ - Business & Finance

[Anonymous No.24957581]

Bitcoin CANNOT survive by paying miners fees alone. The 21 million hard cap is a MEME. It will eventually have to be lifted. To rely on a fluctuating level of fees for the security of a blockchain is laughable. You need a constant reward structure for miners. Fees on bitcoin are lower today than they were in 2018 and there can be periods of little to no chain activity that would compromise the security of the chain.

People are falling for a scam buying into this "scarcer than gold" narrative.

[Anonymous No.24957608]

>>24957581
>this level of cope today.

[Anonymous No.24957669]

>>24957608
tell me how i'm wrong. I'm not saying the price won't go up because a lot of people who are not technically proficient in how this all works are buying BTC and they don't even realize it doesn't work the way they think. Bitcoin is literally dumb money. Lots of people buying something they don't understand.

I OWN some bitcoin but I know it will have to be changed at the protocol level or die.

[Anonymous No.24957681]

>>24957581
>Bitcoin CANNOT survive by paying miners fees alone. The 21 million hard cap is a MEME. It will eventually have to be lifted. To rely on a fluctuating level of fees for the security of a blockchain is laughable. You need a constant reward structure for miners. Fees on bitcoin are lower today than they were in 2018 and there can be periods of little to no chain activity that would compromise the security of the chain.

https://bitcoinvisuals.com/chain-block-reward
https://bitcoinvisuals.com/chain-block-reward
https://bitcoinvisuals.com/chain-block-reward
https://bitcoinvisuals.com/chain-block-reward
https://bitcoinvisuals.com/chain-block-reward
https://bitcoinvisuals.com/chain-block-reward

[Anonymous No.24957721]

>>24957581
it's a ponzi and everyone expects to be out by the time it becomes a problem

[Anonymous No.24957725]

God we're gonna hear so much dumb shit like this from the fucking normies.

[Anonymous No.24957728]

>>24957669
>17 page blog begging
your fat mom will be shoved into the camps and organ harvested. sorry. you missed out homo.

[Anonymous No.24957782]

>>24957681
It is not sustainable even after another 2-3 halvings unless the price reaches millions per coin. Give it up cuck you have no idea how stupid it is to not reward your miners with nothing but fees.

[Anonymous No.24957784]

>>24957725
Nocoiners were always retarded but this time the financial system is collapsing.

>>/biz/thread/S1214767#p1217270

same retards different time , this time however their fiat bags will evaporate and they will become violent.

[Anonymous No.24957794]

Check out blockstack, defichain, lightning, liquid, RSK and others. These projects have to make on chain transactions and will pay healthy fees to be able to do so. This will not be a problem long term

[Anonymous No.24957795]

>>24957669
>I know it will have to be changed at the protocol level or die.
Oh really, you KNOW that huh? Wow really fucking convincing.

[Anonymous No.24957820]

>>24957581

You are debating with delusional underage kids who desperately want their 500 dollars to 10x.

They don't reason, they don't think, they just FOMO. Trying to discuss something with these people is like trying to teach a pigeon to play chess.

[Anonymous No.24957823]

>>24957782
You don't get it the lower the inflation the more the price rises the more the price rises the more miners earn.

Look at the fucking chart inbreed nocoiner retard in the 3 halvings block rewards went down in satoshis but eventually went up in fiat way above previous level.

Halvings unironically made it more redituable for miners to operate even when they earned less satoshis.

COPE

[Anonymous No.24957831]

>>24957782
>he thinks $450 fees is "expensive"
you're in a different universe now poorfag. compared to transporting a pallet of gold across the world instantly its dirt cheap.

[Anonymous No.24957864]

>>24957782
I'm a salty nocoiner but you are being retarded sorry fren.

[Anonymous No.24957896]

>>24957823
>>24957831
You aren't listening to me.The only way the coin survives each halving is through extreme price appreciation. It is possible for it to survive so far but in the next 8 or so years it would have to be worth MILLIONS of dollars per coin to keep mining competitive and decentralized. If it doesn't keep up then mining power will coalesce to fewer hands with economies of scale and it will become a centralized shitcoin.

Don't talk to me about fees because it is NOT enough EVER to keep it properly safe and decentralized. So the only hope for this garbage chain is for the price to keep increasing exponentially until it can't anymore, at which point fees will not cover the security budget requirements. Get a fucking clue you imbeciles.

[Anonymous No.24957922]

>>24957581
I'll be there to buy the mega dip when 21 million hard cap is lifted and people start selling because of "muh inflation". Eventually the market will realize that a stable increase of 1-2% of the BTC supply is not hyperinflation, and that inflation/emission is actually a good thing as long as it's at a constant rate year over year.

[Anonymous No.24957928]

>>24957782
>unless the price reaches millions per coin

[Anonymous No.24957929]

>>24957896
its almost as if they should've designed some way for difficulty to fall so mining becomes profitable again.
oh well, guess we'll never know.

>you are literally this retarded.

[Anonymous No.24957962]

nocoiner cope is in full force the last few weeks

[Anonymous No.24957982]

>>24957929
You're still not listening to me. Read my whole post before making a fool of yourself. The entire halving structure is unsustainable. It's only sustainable until it isn't. If it somehow miraculously survives all the way until the rewards reach 0, then it will die there. It will die a lot sooner unless the hard cap is removed. Fees alone cannot cover the security budget of the chain.This is not even debatable.

[Anonymous No.24958020]

>>24957896
>If it doesn't keep up then mining power will coalesce to fewer hands with economies of scale and it will become a centralized shitcoin.

You are right and those appreciations happened due to game theory and will continue to happen.
And regarding centralization that will end with moore law.

In 5 years the last asics built due to moore law limits at 3nm will be used to heat greenhouses for crops and such type of activities that turn the excess heat into a product destroying centralized mining in the process as there will not be ever again a new asic model.

[Anonymous No.24958026]

>>24957982
>This is not even debatable
>Thinks he, an autistic faggot on 4chan, is more financially informed than thousands of analysts and investors across the globe.
Imagine being this much of a fiat kike.

[Anonymous No.24958040]

>>24957581
no

[Anonymous No.24958060]

>>24957782
>It is not sustainable even after another 2-3 halvings unless the price reaches millions per coin.
that's like the point nigga

[Anonymous No.24958066]

>>24957982
This is why monero exist, and this model can secure itself until 2060, probably more.

Tough i think i will be wrong and what will happen is that btc will become a bancor style system ,the fees will be insane like 1k per tx but will become the backbone of the global economy.

A bancor built to secure peace instead of the failed attempt at bretton woods.

[Anonymous No.24958084]

>>24958026
I'm as informed as anyone who realizes halving proof of work is a retarded fucking idea. Vitalik thinks so, Hoskinson thinks so. Anyone who has thought about it for more than a few minutes and instantly knee jerks to "lol fees will cover the security budget once rewards hits zero" knows that bitcoin is fucking dead unless it changes its protocol. Keep buying for now because price WILL go up due to DUMB money, but just know bitcoin will not last long term in its current state.

[Anonymous No.24958111]

>>24958084
IF it becomes a problem, then it will be addressed. you talk like you're the only person who's ever thought about these issues

[Anonymous No.24958126]

>>24957581
and it starts to become a real problem in like 20 years, but by that time bitcoin is going to be forgotten already. You think people buying btc care about what's going to happen to it in 20 years? Everyone in it hopes it goes to some higher number soon so they can cash out.
>>24957669
>Lots of people buying something they don't understand.
somebody has to be left holding the bag, so yes. It's literally impossible for average btc buyer to make a profit.
>>24957795
it's a simple technical fact. Block reward goes to zero eventually, it's supposed to be replaced by fees, but fees aren't going up, in fact they trend down after the 2017 bubble. Bitcoin can't survive that, it's not something debatable. The idea was that fees are supposed to go up, but what actually happened is that transactions moved elsewhere, mostly to ethereum (which has higher fees now).
>>24957896
A much more short-term issue is with block rewards. It's already at $7.8B/year at current prices. Which is why this is the last bitcoin bubble ever, those numbers are too large already. That's the amount needed just to keep the price from falling from mining.
>>24958111
It was "addressed" by keeping the block size small. The idea was that no scalability means fees are going to be high.

[Anonymous No.24958148]

>>24958111
I'm upset that bitcoin is scam shilled as digital gold with a hard cap when everyone with a brain knows that it can't maintain that hard cap forever. People are getting scammed buying into something they don't even understand. They're buying up lies. This will hurt the entire crypto space when BTC has to get hard forked to remove the supply cap. It's going to be ugly.

Well you can make your money in the short term and get out before that shit hits the fan. It will be ugly.

[Anonymous No.24958165]

>>24958084
But the mining reward doesn't reach zero, it approaches is slowly to infinity, meaning that the price of a BTC will go up relative to the rewards shrinking, it is literally infinitely sustainable so long as people have faith in the currency itself. It will always be profitable for someone.

[Anonymous No.24958283]

>>24958126
Can you please post a picture of you for the screenshot

[Anonymous No.24958430]

>>24957982
>Fees alone cannot cover the security budget of the chain.This is not even debatable.

be bitcoin
be worth $1m
avg txn fee = $150
if miners not making money, they drop off
difficulty falls, rest make money

a fucking child could understand it.

[Anonymous No.24958488]

>>24957581
My shizo szenario is sth like this

>btc not decentralized but few control the network
>max supply from 21mil to 21bil
>all got rekt and satoshi is China or Russia

[Anonymous No.24958495]

>>24958126
>The idea was that fees are supposed to go up
to add, people forget now that bitcoin was supposed to be 'p2p money'. People were supposed to pay with it, so being more popular was supposed to increase the fee level. That's what made the security model as a concept. The security model doesn't work at all in the ponzi model it turned out to actually be.
>>24958165
>But the mining reward doesn't reach zero
This is wrong it's not a float, but that's not that important
>meaning that the price of a BTC will go up relative to the rewards shrinking
no it's not going to go to infinity, every market has some maximum potential which makes adoption a logistic curve.
Nobody needs bitcoin for anything, it relies on convincing people with free cash to buy it. That's big but bitcoin already can't grow 10x. Even demand for gold is mostly for utility.
>>24958283
People aren't that dumb, new generations are going to have new ponzi schemes. Only an idiot would buy into something where ~100% of the supply is held by 60+ year olds (in 2050). This mechanism is already seen with younger people refusing to buy bitcoin, knowing they are providing exit liquidity.
>>24958430
>if miners not making money, they drop off
The point of mining is to secure the chain, if it becomes cheap to attack the chain attacks are going to happen, killing trust in the network. Etc already got attacked several times.

[Anonymous No.24958502]

>>24958430
Right, let the weaker miners keep dropping, leaving only the largest mining pools in control of huge amounts of hash power, governing the security of a coin worth $1 million per coin that pays them zero mining rewards and variable minimal transaction fees. That's a recipe for a safe, secure blockchain.

[Anonymous No.24958515]

>>24958495
>(in 2050)
should be 2040

[Anonymous No.24958533]

>>24958502
>things are going to proceed exactly like this in 2140, thats why i'm not investing today

you're a repulsive poorfag coping. kys.

[Anonymous No.24958570]

>>24958495
This is the only guy with a functioning brain in this thread. Everyone else is precisely the dumb money I'm talking about that buys into Bitcoin and don't even understand how much of a failure the current security protocol is. Make your money while you can, but you're a fool if you think bitcoin will survive the next few halvings.

[Anonymous No.24958586]

>>24957581
you sound like a butthurt BSV holder
everything you said is true but nobody cares, this bitch is going to 400k anyway
keep coping BSVbro

[Anonymous No.24958588]

>>24958430
if miners drop off, then who's supposed to make the money?

[Anonymous No.24958600]

>>24958148
>it can't maintain that hard cap forever
we will see about that little bera

[Anonymous No.24958617]

>>24958588
those that have cheaper electricity bills.

[Anonymous No.24958629]

>>24958586
not that bsv is any better it's actually way worse.
because miners have about ZERO income from fees. unlike the real bitcoin where it's quiet substantial as is.

[Anonymous No.24958698]

>>24958617
so miners will keep dropping off until there's a few miners left who can afford to keep mining at a scale with very little profit margins?

[Anonymous No.24958780]

>>24958698
>you mean once XYZ becomes too expensive people that are inefficient will get priced out?!?!?
whats amazing about your comment is you're such a mindfucked zoomie filled with commie ideas that you think this represents a problem.

[Anonymous No.24958872]

"sustained by fees alone" is a relic from when BTC was first pitched as p2p cash. When Satoshi thought it would be used for transactions, not for buying and hoarding and holding and having its original use case blown out of the water because its an unscaleable piece of shit.

So you have maxis saying its digital gold but then deferring to the "fees will keep us safe" model that was originally pitched with the p2p payment model. It has ABANDONED that model. The current security protocol of all halving proof of work coins is SHIT. Beware buying this ponzi.

[Anonymous No.24958944]

>>24958126
>Which is why this is the last bitcoin bubble ever,

Press (X) to doubt

[Anonymous No.24958956]

>>24958780
so having a single provider or a few centralized entities securing the network is not a problem? do you even know what communism means?

[Anonymous No.24958958]

>MUH FEES

With all due respect, fiat monopoly money is worthless and the fees are, ironically enough, only going to cheapen the value of fiat and boost the value of crypto.

[Anonymous No.24958992]

>>24958872

>unscalable

More like unjewable.

[Anonymous No.24959024]

>>24957581
There are only two options. Add a constant inflation, or lift of the block size completely. 1st option is bad for hodling, 2nd is bad for "decentralization" narrative. 2nd option is very unpopular, and if it would be implemented, I dunno what implications it would have.

[Anonymous No.24959111]

>>24958956
>single provider
why would there only be a single provider, zitfface?

>>24959024
>lift of the block size completel
linear solutions to exponential problems work

[Anonymous No.24959113]

>>24957784
You are literally the lower than 70iq person on your meme pic since you don't understand that btc is by definition another fiat which derives its value from trust.

[Anonymous No.24959127]

>>24959024
yfw XMR already exists

[Anonymous No.24959138]

>>24957581
use monero. it has a linear tail emission to pay miners.

[Anonymous No.24959176]

>>24958992
>price soars through (((institutional investing)))
Its already been jewed, bitcoin failed in its mission to deliver a decentralized currency not controlled by a few huge banks.

[Anonymous No.24959196]

>>24959113
>fiat
retard. fiat = "created by offical decree"

btc is emergent. there is no authority that proclaims it so.

>bb..bbbbut I like changing definitions of words to help support my 19yo poorfag arguments.
kys.

[Anonymous No.24959204]

>>24957581
gymfriended

[Anonymous No.24959211]

>>24959176
>bitcoin has already failed
t. priced out homo caught sleeping.

[Anonymous No.24959296]

The development is headed toward 1 block transaction having very high fees but many effective transactions being merged into one block transaction. Ignoring the actual development being done on BTC is not a good strategy to predict its future.

[Anonymous No.24959407]

>>24959296
>>24959296
There hasn't been a single interesting development on the BTC chain for years. No one seriously thinks the chain will upgrade in any notable fashion. It's all hot air and one giant scam built on lies to get people to pump their bags.

[Anonymous No.24959422]

>>24959407
>blind merged mining
>taproot
kys

[Anonymous No.24959475]

>>24958944
You will see, cycles in bitcoin are easy. Price stabilizes at some level, then the halvening happens. Initially the impact is small, but smaller selling from miners accumulates, until random fomo event creates a fast rise. At that point miners start speculating (they do that a lot) and sell only their cost basis. This continues until new miners join, seeing high profit margins. This increases cost basis of everyone, as dumps increase price goes down, which increases cost basis even more, resulting in dumps that increase in size with price dropping. Near the end of the year big investors (those that bought high - somebody had to) start to harvest tax losses. See end of 2018.
It also happened in 2014.
Increasing interest from the population is on top of it, but it only exacerbates the cycle, as more people fomo into a high price than try to catch falling knives.
Other big coins are also pow based so they have the same behavior regarding dumps from miners that start hoarding when price pumps.

It's the last bubble because eth is going to break the pow cycle with a switch to PoS in 2022 and suddenly become deflationary. Eth already has about 1/2 of btc's demand (block rewards are sustainably ~0.5 of btc's), the market cap is not that 1/2 because inflation is higher. + fees are higher. That's why the flippening is certain no matter the eth/btc ratio before the switch.

[Anonymous No.24959514]

>>24959422
>taproot
hahahah BTC is 5 year too late for smart contracts. Pathetic

[Anonymous No.24959525]

>>24957581
peepee poopoo

[Anonymous No.24959538]

>>24959196
"Fiat money does not have use value (inherent utility, such as a cow or beaver pelt might have), and has value only because a government maintains its value, or because parties engaging in exchange agree on its value."
You keep your meme definition tho i'm sure the crypto bros like it better

[Anonymous No.24959547]

>>24959475
>PoS in 2022 and suddenly become deflationary.
"our plan involves paying validators interest on a deflationary coin"

yeah, ok.

[Anonymous No.24959569]

>>24959538
>unironically proves gold is fiat
ok

[Anonymous No.24959572]

>>24959547
It's very simple, fees are burned. If fees are higher than rewards, the result is deflation.

[Anonymous No.24959586]

>>24959514
>smart contracts
how do i know you don't know what taproot is?

[Anonymous No.24959601]

>>24959569
>gold has no inherent utility value
Ok guess I shouldn't be surprised that I am talking to an actual retard.

[Anonymous No.24959623]

>>24959111
>block rewards decrease
>mining becomes too expensive
>inefficient miners drop out
>only a few large scale miners with lower costs remain
>at some point (((XYZ))) decide to subsidize their favorite miners at the expense of others
>competition is killed
>even the most efficient miners are priced out
>mining is controlled by XYZ
here I summarized it for your little faggot brain to process.

[Anonymous No.24959629]

>>24959407
BTC is the only crypto developing interesting practical things. ETH, the runner up is and always has been a bloated toy to play with technology that doesn't actually work well enough to support all these features yet.

[Anonymous No.24959647]

>>24957581
Why not exactly? In germany we pay _19%_ tax on any purchase. You really think people wouldn't just get used to having fees on transactions? We don't give a shit, we learn to accept it over time.

[Anonymous No.24959656]

>>24959113
Fiat is currency created by decree moron.

>by definition another fiat which derives its value from trust.

No you fucking moron fiat currencies and gold and bitcoin derive their value from supply & demand like everything.
Anyone thinking otherwise is a marxist retard using marx theory of value.

The difference between fiat and gold & bitcoin is the supply mechanism the first by decree and the last two using proof of work.

[Anonymous No.24959662]

>>24959586
Taproot is a very minor efficiency gain. It makes multisig and ln channel transactions a bit smaller, but that's it. It's not going to change anything.

[Anonymous No.24959667]

>>24957581
This is why we need a constant mempool backlog, which stabilizes miner fees and therefore hash rate, and keeps them motivated toward moving the chain forward. There is nothing to be alarmed about, bitcoin is well on track to having consistent mempool demand.

Forks like bcash and bsv are unbelievably fucked after another halving or two though, they will not survive, ironically because their blocks are too big relative to demand

[Anonymous No.24959682]

>>24959572
>our assertions
>we are a utility coin, things are built on top of us that must remain profitable.
>we will undergo deflation, yet continue paying interest to "validators"
>our price increase, will not result in pressures to move to different chains...because the public really does care what chain their dapp runs on.
>yeah, it will be hard / impossible to calculate total number of coins in existence thanks to sharding.

sounds very well thought out.

[Anonymous No.24959694]

>>24957581
>>24957669
Well this is acually correct
But problem is like 4-8 halvings away (16-32 years) so literally noone cares tragedy of commons baby
I predict narrative shifting in 10-15 years on slow issuance and all 21 mil set in stone shills nowhere to be find but YOU are dumb money is you are acting on it now lol
>>24957721
>>24957922
>>24958126
This acually
>>24957794
Oh Lightning and liquid TOPKEK yeah that will solve issue of miners not payed kek
>>24958026
YOu are retard and OP is right lol those analysts and investors will not be around after they dump on you at least hes thinking with his head
There is 0 math models proving it can be done and best bets are "ALTRUISTIC MINERS" (lol) OR INFLATION/ISSUANCE (rekt 21 mil meme)


I mean you retards know real bitcoin core devs where trying to start discussion on this topic for years but got silenced hard after StOrEOfVAlUE meme cought on?

[Anonymous No.24959699]

>>24959572
This is correct but eth fags have not yet done the math correctly the eip of fee burning would burn very little at the moment , less than 5% of the mined supply.

[Anonymous No.24959703]

>>24959662
>It makes multisig and ln channel transactions a bit smaller,
check out spacechains to get a concept of whats coming and what taproot enables. tldr. blind merged mining.

[Anonymous No.24959711]

>>24959623
Miners mostly run on green renewable energy anyway. You plug your miner to a solar panel and let that shit run. Why would a miner, no matter how cost inefficient turn it off? We've had many periods where mining became not profitable and yet the miners kept going.

[Anonymous No.24959731]

>>24957581
LOL the lack of brains today. Calvin must have restarted the boiler room

[Anonymous No.24959750]

>>24958084
proof of stake is scammy as fuck and you have to go back

[Anonymous No.24959766]

>>24959667
Everything about Bitcoin and it's evolution plays out so perfectly I have the feeling Satoshi Nakamoto planned everything from the beginning. It's like he knew the 1 MB block limit would create controversy, knew it would create a fork and knew the fork would fail proving WHY he put the limit there without explaining why. This man operated on a whole different level

[Anonymous No.24959784]

>>24957581
Haha bull run go brrr

[Anonymous No.24959833]

Yes, look up Vitaliks argument on this. ETH is literally better SoV than BTC (look up EIP-1559 adding ETH deflation cleverly)

[Anonymous No.24959871]

>>24957721
Same can be said about stocks

[Anonymous No.24959926]

>>24959682
>we will undergo deflation, yet continue paying interest to "validators"
is the idea of blockrewards-fees = netinflation really hard to understand?
>our price increase, will not result in pressures to move to different chains
that's not how fees work, gas price in eth is dynamic. Fees depend on transaction demand, not on eth price.
>yeah, it will be hard / impossible to calculate total number of coins in existence thanks to sharding.
this is absolute nonsense, sharding means synchronous operations between shards are impossible, not that the state of the system is unknown.
>>24959682
Taproot doesn't enable anything new, it's a method to compress transactions when all required multisig parties agree. It can't enable anything new, as the failure mode is to execute the script on-chain.
>>24959699
Rewards under PoS are tiny, 540k eth with 10M eth staked. Ie. about 9x less than current inflation. Fees are much higher at current prices.
In addition, staking is very cheap costs wise so most rewards are going to be hoarded.
>>24959871
What? If I own a profitable company and it pays me dividends I don't need any other investors to profit. I have no idea what your point is.

[Anonymous No.24959951]

>>24959766
sorry to burst your bubble but bitcoin started with 32MB blocks. Satoshi added the 1MB limit as a temporary spam measure (as people started putting trash in blocks, like bible quotes) and disappeared before congestion issues appeared.

[Anonymous No.24959967]

>>24959647
>In germany we pay _19%_ tax on any purchas
ok but germans are biological cucks this would never work outside of germany where people actually riot if they dont get what they want

[Anonymous No.24959977]

>>24959951
>as people started putting trash in blocks, like bible quotes

[Anonymous No.24959993]

>>24959766
THE ABOSLUTE STATE OF BITCOIN EVANGELISM AND INFORMATION ON BIZ

[Anonymous No.24960019]

>>24959977
what?
LukeJr (in)famously started putting the entire bible I don't know if he finished

[Anonymous No.24960129]

>>24960019
>Trash, like Bible quotes

[Anonymous No.24960179]

>>24957581
High IQ anon. Moved most of my funds out of BTC because of this. Its more than likely that another protocol will overtake bitcoin eventually. Can't tell you which, but bitcoin will not win without a change in protocol.

[Anonymous No.24960308]

>>24959711
>Miners mostly run on green renewable energy anyway
no
>You plug your miner to a solar panel and let that shit run.
that's not how solar panels work. you need batteries to store the energy so that you can keep using it when the sun is out. it's not a cheap solution. also keep in mind that solar panels don't last forever and you'll have to pay for maintenance and repairs along the way.
>Why would a miner, no matter how cost inefficient turn it off?
why would a miner keep mining if they can earn more from selling that energy back to the power company?
>We've had many periods where mining became not profitable and yet the miners kept going.
a lot of them capitulated. there still are enough rewards to go around so those who could afford to keep mining at low margins kept going.

[Anonymous No.24960365]

>>24960129
Well I didn't even think of it as the bible specifically, I just remembered lukejr's spam and used it as an example. Take that as you will.
>>24960179
Moved out to what?
You can't lose on eth at this price. Still goes up with btc pumps even if less in the short term, flippening is guaranteed after PoS (medium term), valuation above 10T in the long term as it becomes the digital foundation for the global economy. Can't go wrong, just hold and stake.
Staying out of crypto altogether is probably not smart, it's going to grow a lot as a whole. How high can stocks like tsla go from this point? Can tsla really be worth trillions?

[Anonymous No.24960475]

>>24959662
It opens up endless possibilities and will quite possibly allow effectively infinite scaling. The theoretical upper limit on the number of clients that can participate in each transaction isn't clear anymore. We may be able to have millions of clients participate in a transaction without much cost per client.

[Anonymous No.24960547]

>>24959662
it's a huge capability multiplier m8

[Anonymous No.24960583]

>>24959703
to me trustless non custodial shared liquidity pools is the most interesting. it just kills the bank after it's already killed once.

[Anonymous No.24960642]

>>24960308
>you need batteries to store the energy so that you can keep using it when the sun is out

No you don't lol. Especially if you run a Bitcoin miner. You only need a battery if you have excess energy. With a miner you can feed the energy completely into the system. No need to store it

[Anonymous No.24960900]

>>24960642
you can only use solar panels when the sun is UP. if you want to keep mining when the sun is DOWN, you either need to use energy from the grid, or you need to generate excess energy through solar panels and store it when the sun was UP.

[Anonymous No.24960970]

>>24960900
OK, so if mining is profitable, you buy power from the grid, when it's not you just let your solar panel run. So?

[Anonymous No.24961049]

>>24960308
>no
Either they run on green energy or are subsidized somehow meaning someone is choosing to pay to pollute which is not a problem inherent to Bitcoin. Nobody can compete with hydro.

[Anonymous No.24961113]

>>24959629
>what is Flare

[Anonymous No.24961344]

>>24961113
It's another word for giving up. We could have done that before Bitcoin except regulations didn't allow it, it's not crypto.

[Anonymous No.24961370]

>>24960970
you make no sense.
>>24961049
even if people can't compete with hydro, they would have to compete FOR hydro. demand will drive prices higher at some point. also think about the opportunity cost of mining with green energy. why would anyone mine bitcoin if they can sell that energy back to the grid for a higher return? if they like BTC so much they can always get more of it with their return from selling their energy back to the grid instead of mining it directly.

[Anonymous No.24961446]

Bitcoin is the greatest ponzi scheme in history and I missed it.

[Anonymous No.24961517]

>>24961446
>>>/pol/

[Anonymous No.24961529]

>>24961370
>why would anyone mine bitcoin if they can sell that energy back to the grid for a higher return
If the grid is running on hydro it's cheap to both buy and sell. Most places don't have hydro and you can't deliver electricity far. If the price was stable for years the market would find an equilibrium where the margins would only be worth it for those with access to the cheapest electricity.

[Anonymous No.24961542]

>>24957581
cope

[Anonymous No.24962044]

>>24959623
>what are mining pools.
Holy shit you don’t know how bitcoin works at all do you?

[Anonymous No.24962109]

there will be (already is to some degree) incentive for whales to build run farms of their own to secure the network and protect their investment.
the idea that mining would become too expensive and everyone involved would just throw up their hands and let a 51% attack happen is retarded fud

[Anonymous No.24962128]

>>24961529
I was talking about solar energy. in case of hydro, you're right about the cost. but you can't just go up to a dam and build a mining facility nearby. also my point on supply and demand still stands. and the problem is not the stability of energy prices but the stability of block rewards. under the current model the network will need very high fees along with a high volume of on-chain transactions to compensate the miners for the near zero block rewards in the future. eventually it will lead to hypercentralization of mining at the hands of a few.
>>24962044
>what are private mining pools
you don't seem to know how mining works

[Anonymous No.24962129]

>>24960019
Fucking based. Is it still there?

[Anonymous No.24962177]

>>24962109
wrong, it's the free rider's problem, everyone benefits but only some parties would pay for mining. It's not going to happen.
it's not about being 'too expensive' but total rewards being too low

[Anonymous No.24962255]

>>24959211
lmao

[Anonymous No.24962297]

>>24962128
>but you can't just go up to a dam and build a mining facility nearby
Yes you can. I can sell you a container.
>the stability of energy prices but the stability of block rewards
I meant the price of BTC but you're right I should have said block rewards.
>the network will need very high fees along with a high volume of on-chain transactions
Years of testing says there's almost infinite demand for secured transactions. Scaling to extreme volume means the high fees are spread out.

[Anonymous No.24962374]

>>24962177
>not about being 'too expensive' but total rewards being too low
jesus christ, its the same thing you fool. weather or not miners can will naturally profit and have incentive that way. reward-expense must be positive this this.
at some point, even if miners can't naturally profit, the size of the network makes it such that having a secure bitcoin network has value, people will pay to ensure that if need be. you can't just 'free-rider' hand wave that away, the transaction will still be prohibitively expensive for spam attacks.

[Anonymous No.24962499]

>>24957782
>unless the price reaches millions per coin
NOW you got it!

[Anonymous No.24962819]

>>24962297
>Yes you can. I can sell you a container.
If mining is so profitable near the dam, then why bother selling containers and lease out the space for other people to benefit? Also I have doubts about scaling and cooling when it comes to containers.
>Years of testing says there's almost infinite demand for secured transactions. Scaling to extreme volume means the high fees are spread out.
You would be right if there were a higher block size and no 2nd layer (ie lightning network). most of the transactions will be settled off-chain and there won't be enough transactions on the chain to generate enough fees let alone spread it out, which would require a transaction volume high enough to rival visa and mastercard even with a higher block size.
>>24962374
pay to whom? to miners? what if they ask for more money next year? what if they refuse process your transaction because you refused to pay the network security tax? you haven't thought this through have you?

[Anonymous No.24962888]

>>24962819
ok, it's clear your a brainlet so this is only response you get.
pay to set-up farms and secure the network, as mentioned in the thread you replied to. try to keep up next time

[Anonymous No.24962976]

>>24959127
This guy gets it

[Anonymous No.24962991]

>>24958495
>The point of mining is to secure the chain, if it becomes cheap to attack the chain attacks are going to happen, killing trust in the network. Etc already got attacked several times.
People who actually care about the minuscule possibility that a transaction to them will be rolled back will just wait until enough blocks are mined and only then settle the trade. You know, like they already do now.

[Anonymous No.24963183]

>>24962888
will do. just don't beg me to fuck your wife instead when you can't afford to pay for next year's mining contribution tax. enjoy the free ride until then.

[Anonymous No.24963289]

>>24957581
>>24957669
bitcoin tards don't care about the technology they only care about the money

[Anonymous No.24964049]

>>24962819
>why bother selling containers
Startup costs and risk. The point is not to convince you to invest in mining but that the market will trend toward only green energy miners being profitable even if rewards stayed stable, even faster if rewards decrease..
The L2 clients opening and closing channels can be merged into a few transactions. Bigger blocks accomplish absolutely nothing for now, if anything we probably want faster block times even if it means decreasing the block size. When there's enough bandwidth for it clients can settle in every block even if it's not strictly needed. As demand for settlements increases so does the verified reliability of the L2 solutions using them meaning they don't need to settle as often. If what miners offer is cheap we use them more until they're not cheap.

[Anonymous No.24964358]

>>24959694
Fine, but what about STX? And if that doesn't work out, the next iteration. Of enough side chains are competing for space on the chain the fees will rise in accordance with what finality on the BTC chain is worth. Maybe try reading this.

https://daemontechnologies.co/stacks

A lot can change before 2140

[Anonymous No.24964726]

>>24958084
Even if you are right the protocol can be changed, the shelling point is the ownership structure of the UTXO set.

Even if the protocol needs change there are other solutions, EIP-1559 or similar, lower block size, forcing the creation of a security pool before the problem arises.

[Anonymous No.24964773]

>>24957581
>The 21 million hard cap is a MEME

true, since there's like 4-5 million bitcoin lost already

[Anonymous No.24964776]

>>24958872
also, see "induced demand". L2 might end up increasing the use of L1

[Anonymous No.24964851]

>>24958533
100% this

[Anonymous No.24964922]

>>24959514
>he actually thinks ETH (the asset) and not EVM (the stack) is gaining network effects

LMAO! RSK will eat Ethereum. EVM will outlast ETH. Cope.

[Anonymous No.24965491]

>>24964773
Yeah sure, that money is ”lost”. Hal didn’t know how to write a will. He left his wife and two kids without money because he has a master plan to be reborn in 2234 and be kang with his Bitcoins.