Kleros fud from WEF

[Anonymous No.24766050]

This excerpt is from page 13 of the WEF document, dispute resolution for blockchain:

http://www3.weforum.org/docs/WEF_WP_Dispute_Resolution_for_Blockchain_2020.pdf

The paragraph is in reference to Kleros (check endnotes), claiming that the dispute resolution process it utilizes, is not based on the merits of each party’s position but based on a prediction
of how other jurors will vote.

I am not sure how valid this is, people vote based on the evidence provided which is likely to result in a majority vote for whichever party is correct.

The position it seems is circular, which cant be categorized as legitimate fud, any thoughts?

[Anonymous No.24766102]

>>24766050
>any thoughts?
Yeah, it's basless FUD.
Exactly what you would expect from a bunch of fucking filthy poo eating subhuman Pajeets. Because those are the ones who put this together.
Worthless pieces of shit didn't take the time to read into it. A fucking monkey could do their job.
But what do you expect anyway. After all Klaus Schwab is nothing more than a puppet either

[Anonymous No.24766123]

>>24766102
What do they propose as the alternative though? It seems as though there is none, which basically means they must yield at some point.

[Anonymous No.24766173]

it is retarded FUD. i read the whole thing and basically they're saying "let's put in centralized control for dispute resolution so we can make sure things go according to """"our""""" plan teeeheeee"
not even kidding. absolute fucks want to control everything
literally admitted that there is a working system that's using game theory based on other jurors decisions, i.e. there is indeed a way to figure out exactly what is going to be the outcome, and then WITHIN THE SAME SENTENCE say "inherent uncertainties". i mean, come on
that's why WEF is such a fucking joke and the chainstink announcement did nothing for it. they're a bunch of dinosaurs who are afraid of crypto swallowing all of their power

[Anonymous No.24766236]

I thought Kleros already has a solution to this and the insentive is already there to make correct decisions instead of going with popular vote.

[Anonymous No.24766263]

>>24766173
>>24766236
Both of you are correct

[Anonymous No.24766292]

now what?

[Anonymous No.24766318]

>>24766292
Buy more and hodl

[Anonymous No.24766348]

>>24766050
if Kleros ends up being The Standard i am going to shit myself and die laughing

[Anonymous No.24766352]

>>24766050
Klaus is still accumulating his suicide stack

[Anonymous No.24766377]

The Supreme Kleros court has labeled the 3 authors as "NoPnkers" and their FUD is now baseless and fake.

[Anonymous No.24766397]

>>24766123
It's quite simple really. Blockchain tech is not going to solve everything - this is Plebbit-tier thinking.
Subjective outcomes will be left to current dispute resolution methods, although some of these outcomes will be placed on-chain.

[Anonymous No.24766451]

>>24766397
current dispute resolution matters all have a single centralized potential failure point. in addition, they are not scalable
ill give it to you that, as the paper says, some large enterprise use cases probably will retain those centralized means, but why even used a blockchain at that point? at a global scale that might need 1000s of cases to be resolved daily, no current centralized dispute resolution mechanism would be able to support it.
unironically kleros is so far ahead of its game, every holder from today is going to be shitting gold

[Anonymous No.24766465]

>>24766050
just added 10k more pinakoins to my stack

[Anonymous No.24766503]

>>24766318
Not just this but also stake it in Kleros court and solve cases.

If you're technical, fork some smart contract templates and add a kleros clause to them, then share them around so Kleros gets more work.

If you're savvy and connected, try to get businesses and individuals to start using those contracts. The faster we get adoption, the bigger this thing is going to get before some central fuck tries to swoop in and solve everything with a bullshit corruptible method.

[Anonymous No.24766527]

>>24766451
Jesus christ. Don't repeat talking points. Actually think.
Have you ever had a real job? Do you think the legal profession is going to disappear overnight?
These outcomes will be placed on-chain in a decentralised manner, the decision-making certainly will not be.

[Anonymous No.24766538]

>>24766397
>Subjective outcomes will be left to current dispute resolution methods
There is no court on the planet that will adjudicate a small claims (smart)contract dispute between individuals in different nations. There is no court on the planet with the appropriate jurisdiction AND the ability to enforce a judgment.

Kleros fills this gap by basically acting as arbitration and judgments are executed automatically by the smart contract itself. Fudders seem to think that Kleros is going to be shoehorned into existing B2B contract disputes where they have lawyers and international legal arrangements already, which is not the proposed use case at all.

[Anonymous No.24766573]

>>24766527
>These outcomes will be placed on-chain in a decentralised manner, the decision-making certainly will not be.
Cope. They could still do KYC and use Kleros you fucking idiot

[Anonymous No.24766594]

>>24766527
shut the fuck up you fucking retard and learn to read
there is no reason for outcomes to be placed on-chain if the origin of that outcome is centralized. copying past technology on new technology has been proven time and time again the biggest downfall of all innovation
it is like saying "let's use digital USD backed by FED on ethereum. and btw they can freeze the dollars they don't like :)))))"
what the fuck is the point?
you're a fucking 100IQ idiot who thinks he's too smart for it all.
i never said legal professions or enterprise use cases are going to disappear, but they do not need a blockchain at all. i bet you're a fucking link holder too
>xDDD let's just bring everything on chain that was centralized in a centralizd manner through centralized means as i slurp some centralized decision making cocks xDDDDDDDDDD
this shit has no place on blockchains long term and any use case they currently serve on chains now will either be replaced by fully decentralized mechanisms or will migrate back to its centralized private networks
get fucked, retard

[Anonymous No.24766606]

I don't understand this logic. If it's an objective matter, the correct answer should win. If it's a subjective matter, the popular answer should win. They're saying the former doesn't work because of the "prediction" that facts exist and can be evaluated as such? Or are they saying the second doesn't work because it can be predicted what the popular vote will be? What's the alternative, no vote at all, just a centralized decision-making entity?

I know nothing about Kleros except indian memes, sorry anons

[Anonymous No.24766610]

>>24766538
>>24766573
Read: a solution looking for a problem.

[Anonymous No.24766619]

>tfw holding both LINK and PNK
Should I dump my PNK?

[Anonymous No.24766624]

>>24766050
>what is game theory and rational thinking

[Anonymous No.24766626]

>>24766610
Bullish. That's the same thing they said about LINK as well back in the day.
You are clearly a midwit.
First you laugh, later you will cry

[Anonymous No.24766650]

>>24766606
they actually haven't proposed why it doesn't work. if you read their statement you can see they literally say "there are game theory mechanisms that determine the answer based on what all players will do, but that brings uncertainty" (????). they bring no argument why that is so. their proposed alternative is a centralized decision making entity, yes.
>>24766610
>over 500 cases and counting
>dozens of integrations and counting
>biggest DeFi projects with billions of dollars and more integrating with kleros and counting
yea, totally. go suck a dick, loser

[Anonymous No.24766703]

>>24766619
You should give me your PNK.

>>24766606
Life protip: learn how to diagram a sentence. Then you can understand what they're actually saying through all the fluff. Then you can break down their arguments to their constituent parts and realize they're talking out their ass. Their entire statement on Kleros basically indicates very clearly that they didn't read and understand the short paper at all, but couldn't publish the paper without mentioning Kleros or they'd get laughed at mercilessly.

[Anonymous No.24766708]

>>24766594
Are we seriously still at the point of getting caught up on "centralized data" is?
The whole point is that brand is going to be needed for subjective outcomes. Trying to force that into an unnecessary delivery mechanism when we have APIs is a waste of time.

[Anonymous No.24766722]

>>24766708
wow, you're actually that stupid. impressive

[Anonymous No.24766738]

>>24766650
lol, so I wasn't far off. Thanks anon. Imagine thinking you're going to be able to use game theory on a large decentralized network. I'm already seeing a dude that's a Kleros PI that investigates the voters. As if it's somehow easier to predict and thus manipulate a network than a single fail point

>>24766703
See, I didn't read the klertos whitepaper because I'm a brainlet that does it for free. These omegajews putting forth as little effort as me is sad. I understand their "point" now though anon, thanks.

[Anonymous No.24766761]

>>24766050
If as a juror you are punished for a minority opinion, your incentive becomes not to vote for what you think the evidence tells you, but for what you think the evidence tells the average juror. If you see a detail that would free the accused, but you think other jurors are likely to miss or not understand this detail, your incentive is to vote guilty.

[Anonymous No.24766783]

>>24766738
>Pajeet Runner 2029

[Anonymous No.24766793]

>>24766236
And what is this solution?

[Anonymous No.24766798]

>>24766050
So if FUD from some 12 year old racist neet frogposter is bullish, then I guess I should sell my house and put it into PNK, right?

[Anonymous No.24766806]

>>24766738
It's very normal for these "think tank" papers to be fluff garbage. I find them incredibly hard to read and pretend to take seriously in my line of work. I also made the mistake of buying a Kissinger book and trying to read it deeply. This was a mistake because first of all, it was clearly ghostwritten by some thinktank loser and they just used Kissinger's name to get sales on the name alone, and two the arguments were extremely poor. I became very disillusioned with "the elites" after this because clearly they're just midwits who happen to be in positions of power, and it explains a lot of the problems in the world today.

[Anonymous No.24766825]

>>24766722
So you're literally getting excited about some low-value contracts with some random neets deciding the outcomes? The absolute state of biz.

[Anonymous No.24766852]

>>24766761
No, your incentive is to vote the truth and include your reasoning in your vote post. If you wind up voting in the minority, the loser of the "trial" should see your post and appeal and include your argument in their evidence and upon appeal, you will have been found to be right and will not be deprived of your PNK. The flaw you are describing only applies when you can't explain your vote to the appeals jury or there are no appeals.

In 500 cases I don't believe there has been a case like you're describing, but I haven't looked at every case so I can't say for certain. Even if it does happen, it happens at a rate of less than 0.2%, which I believe is lower than the rate of US juries fucking up decisions.

[Anonymous No.24766956]

>>24766852
Ah well that resolves that. There are never dissenting opinions in legal cases.

[Anonymous No.24767016]

>>24766956
When a jury isn't unanimous in criminal cases (IANAL) I believe it's just treated as a hung jury and the judge orders a do-over with a new jury and both sides present evidence again. (By the way if the jury is hung over and over a prosecutor will eventually just drop the case, this is how jury nullification happens)

Kleros is a little different because jurors are not allowed to confer with each other and vote independently. Laws and precedent are not interpreted, just the contract and the evidence. You should really read the book, it's not as technical as I'd like but it's easy reading for most people.

[Anonymous No.24767100]

>>24767016
I'm talking about dissenting opinions from judges, not jury decisions.

[Anonymous No.24767120]

>>24767100
Then I don't understand your post. Kleros doesn't have judges, only juries.

[Anonymous No.24767219]

>>24767120
>No, your incentive is to vote the truth and include your reasoning in your vote post. If you wind up voting in the minority, the loser of the "trial" should see your post and appeal and include your argument in their evidence and upon appeal, you will have been found to be right and will not be deprived of your PNK.
This just isn't the reality in the real world. I have a legal background and often both parties have a very good case. As a very basic examples, many cases that go to the SCOTUS have dissenting opinions. Would Clarence Thomas lose his PNK?
The project sounds "nice" until you get to any use case with any actual value or complexity attached to it.

[Anonymous No.24767347]

>>24767219
To add to this. And for those cases, why not just have the centralised result published on-chain, like AP did with the election?
But yeah, I guess there a use case around low-value contracts across borders that would usually be in small-claims courts. But surely, there can't be that much excitement about the project if it's just that?

[Anonymous No.24767363]

>>24767219
>This just isn't the reality in the real world.
I think you're conflating Kleros and IRL court systems too much. Kleros is a decentralized contract dispute system automatically executed by smart contract and agreed to by both parties in advance. IRL courts have people brought in in chains and lawyers argue obscure points of precedent and evidentiary rules guided by a judge and explained to average morons. IRL courts do not rely on game theory at all. Kleros couldn't function without it.

>The project sounds "nice" until you get to any use case with any actual value or complexity attached to it.
Read the white paper and book. Actual value doesn't matter to the functioning of Kleros court, both parties agree to arbitration by Kleros in advance and the smart contract executes the decision automatically. Complexity is solved by having specialized courts that require more than normal PNK to stake on. This encourages jurors to self-select for courts where they have expertise and are therefore more likely to make a correct ruling (for example, I have J-E translation experience so I'm comfortable staking lots of PNK there because I'm sure I'll make the right calls. I would not stake a similar amount of PNK in an international maritime shipping court (which doesn't yet exist), or in their statistical analysis court that does exist, because I lack the expertise to be sure that I'm making the right call. And again, both parties agree in advance to arbitrate disputes through Kleros, and they would only do so after considering the complexity of the contract. If they felt it were too complex for Kleros to arbitrate, they'd either find a different contract vehicle or refrain from contracting at all.

[Anonymous No.24767448]

>>24767347
>And for those cases, why not just have the centralised result published on-chain, like AP did with the election?
Anon, I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you're not as stupid as that example made you sound. Bringing centralized information ("facts") on chain is the role of oracles, not Kleros. Kleros can be considered as something similar to a "subjective oracle", but that really just muddies the waters as to what an oracle is and how they play a role in smart contracts. Do some research on Chainlink.

>But surely, there can't be that much excitement about the project if it's just that?
Kleros can be used to solve ALL current arbitration use cases. It has massive growth potential. Additionally, there's no reason Kleros results wouldn't be accepted in IRL courts like any other arbitrator, and they don't require judgments since everything is executed by smart contract once the judgment is in and both sides stop appealing (which signifies consent).

[Anonymous No.24767452]

[Anonymous No.24767453]

>>24767363
But why would a larger party ever agree to use Kleros?

[Anonymous No.24767472]

>>24766806
I don't know why anyone of extremely high intelligence would want to be a visible elite unless they're cursed with an overpowering sense of justice or noblesse oblige. Fortunately my job is making trees are healthy so I mostly talk to midwits that are very straightforward about having a comfortable job of moderate/low intellectual need. Lol

[Anonymous No.24767473]

>>24767452

[Anonymous No.24767536]

>>24766798
sounds like a great idea. PNK is my homeboi

[Anonymous No.24767566]

Can you imagine the amount of PNK threads when the WEF itself bends the fucking knee?

[Anonymous No.24767574]

>>24767453
Larger party in a dispute as they would lose advantage to intimidate the other party.
But yeah, I might read the whitepaper.

[Anonymous No.24767586]

>>24767453
Cheaper, faster, more transparent arbitration. One can easily imagine Patreon requiring Kleros arbitration for legal claims against them, which would have been a lot cheaper than what they're currently going through for banning Owen Benjamin from their platform. Their TOS really bit them in the ass on that one from what I understand. Basically it's the same argument for all outsourcing: cheaper and easier and allows companies to focus on core competencies over necessary but low value-add activities.

>>24767472
Being a high profile academic can be valuable when dealing with politicians and especially with the media, like Kissinger did in his career. But yes, I agree most intelligent people probably prefer to remain in the shadows and be able to go the store without a security detail.

[Anonymous No.24767598]

>>24766102
Klaus is a brainlet errand boy clearly.

[Anonymous No.24767602]

Look at this thread and tell me $4 isn't happening.

[Anonymous No.24767624]

>>24767566
it;ll be a PNK board that's for sure. already kind of is but it'll be ridiculous then

[Anonymous No.24767639]

>>24767602
4Moonxgg

[Anonymous No.24768827]

>>24767624
I honestly think LINK is going to die off on /biz/ and be taken over by PNK. Might take a year or two but it'll happen.

[Anonymous No.24769146]

Can anyone explain how to use uni-swap? I have money in USDC on coin base, I see that I can connect my CB wallet to uniswap, but where should the PNK go after I buy it? A wallet right...What is a good wallet to use? Fuck I hate being a newfag.

[Anonymous No.24769165]

>>24769146
It will go into your coin base wallet automatically

[Anonymous No.24769238]

>>24769165
Oh ok I didn't think coin base would store a coin it doesn't sell. Cool. Is CB a good wallet to use or should I buy a hardware wallet or a desktop one?

[Anonymous No.24769265]

>>24768827

[Anonymous No.24769270]

>>24769238
I personally use MetaMask for most coin + a ledger hardware wallet for big, long term holds

Kinda gotta DYOR on the wallet question and decide based on your risk profile, size of investment, how comfy you are with the coin, how comfy you are with wallet technology in general, etc

[Anonymous No.24769294]

>>24769270
Thank you anon.

[Anonymous No.24769335]

>>24769146
Metamask or get a trezor and buy and much PNK as possible

[Anonymous No.24769411]

>>24769335
>trezor
Thanks for the recommendation. Is there a way to just store coins on a desktop wallet till I buy a hardware one?

[Anonymous No.24769432]

>>24766722
>>24767586
Thanks for input both btw. Nice to see some good adversarial shilling. Will have a proper look at it when I get the chance over Christmas.

[Anonymous No.24769453]

>>24766050
Kleros is a retarded idea in general

[Anonymous No.24769466]

>>24769411
https://www.myetherwallet.com/create-wallet
Use the Keystore File option but do remember that if you're computer is compromised that you're in trouble.
See they've got an app there but not sure about that.

[Anonymous No.24769478]

>>24769466
thank you

[Anonymous No.24769818]

PNK is a ERC20 token ohhhhh so it goes to a ethereum wallet? well cool very nice I remember when torrenting was the hardest computer thing I had to learn.

[Anonymous No.24769852]

[Anonymous No.24770261]

>>24766102
>Klaus Schwab is nothing more than a puppet either
You're going to regret that in a few years.

[Anonymous No.24770310]

>>24767219
>he thinks it’s based around courts of law.
Fucking tard

[Anonymous No.24770433]

>>24766050
All these seething, coping faggots with their lunch money and tongue in a french s.o.y.i.m's ass.

[Anonymous No.24770452]

>>24770433
>All these seething, coping faggots with their lunch money and tongue in a french s.o.y.i.m's ass.

[Anonymous No.24770463]

>>24766465
>just added 10k more pinakoins to my stack

[Anonymous No.24770474]

>>24766102
>Yeah, it's basless FUD.
>Exactly what you would expect from a bunch of fucking filthy poo eating subhuman Pajeets. Because those are the ones who put this together.
>Worthless pieces of shit didn't take the time to read into it. A fucking monkey could do their job.
>But what do you expect anyway. After all Klaus Schwab is nothing more than a puppet either

[Anonymous No.24770495]

>>24766852
>No, your incentive is to vote the truth and include your reasoning in your vote post. If you wind up voting in the minority, the loser of the "trial" should see your post and appeal and include your argument in their evidence and upon appeal, you will have been found to be right and will not be deprived of your PNK. The flaw you are describing only applies when you can't explain your vote to the appeals jury or there are no appeals.
>In 500 cases I don't believe there has been a case like you're describing, but I haven't looked at every case so I can't say for certain. Even if it does happen, it happens at a rate of less than 0.2%, which I believe is lower than the rate of US juries fucking up decisions.

[Anonymous No.24771054]

>>24770310
No brainlet. I was drawing an analogy between the dissenting opinions in court and jurors losing their PNK for having the "wrong" opinion in highly subjective matters.