/biz/ - Business & Finance

[Anonymous No.24376872]

The first apple sells for a price of $10. The second apple sells for a price of $15. Both apples were identical. What is the true value of an apple??

[Anonymous No.24376896]

>>24376872
The friends we made along the way.

[Anonymous No.24376915]

>>24376872
$1.50

[Anonymous No.24376918]

>>24376872
thats a very volatile apple ordebook, sir

[Anonymous No.24376926]

>>24376872
$15. The price of the apple has increased since someone is willing to pay more for it

[Anonymous No.24376930]

equal to the wage of laborer who picked the apple

[Anonymous No.24376948]

>>24376872
you need to give us more info.

if the 2 buy order were in quick succession, then it means the apple is mooning, and therefore it's very underpriced, it's inherent value would be at least 100$

if you mean like in general, then at the time of the first buy the apple's value was 10, and then at the time of the second it was 15

also this >>24376915

[Anonymous No.24376950]

Whatever it’s going for in the market right now, with potential for future price correction

[Anonymous No.24376964]

>>24376872
>What is the true value of an apple??
Time + Ability + Effort

If the consumer does not have the time, ability or effort to grow an apple for themselves, then I can charge whatever price I desire for said apple.

[Anonymous No.24376971]

The price of the Apple is being suppressed

[Anonymous No.24376980]

100k

https://www.novinite.com/articles/198044/The+most+Expensive+Apple+in+the+World%2C+Worth+EUR+100+Thousand+Grows+in+Plovdiv+Garden

[Anonymous No.24376993]

>>24376872

If there is a large order book filled with people who want to buy apples at 14.99 dollar, and a large amount of people willing to sell at 15.01 dollar. Then probably the best way to describe the price would be 15 dollar.

But hey, I am not a genius 12 year old like you OP.

[Anonymous No.24377006]

>>24376872
depends how hungry the person is wanting to buy the apple.

[Anonymous No.24377017]

>>24376930
this

[Anonymous No.24377028]

>>24377017
>>24376930
>solar powere self-maintaning robot picks up the apple
what's now dumb commies?

[Anonymous No.24377058]

>>24376896
Fpbp

[Anonymous No.24377062]

>>24376896
kek
>>24376872
depends on the volume and if I can dump my 1000 apples for 15$, I'll probably shill apples on /biz/ and *eddit and fud oranges, then will link the price doing a +50% in a day and how it's barely getting started, then will dump on faggots at 15$

[Anonymous No.24377160]

God can confirm the apple should be free so taking her against her will is fine.

[Anonymous No.24377189]

Value is subjective. Whatever the buyer was willing to pay for a specific apple is the value of that specific apple to the buyer. The apple might have lower value for you.

[Anonymous No.24377190]

>>24376930
>wage
In profit-driven firms, a worker's wage is inherently less than the value he produces. The capitalist steals from the worker a portion of his created value. The apple's true value is equivalent to the worker's individual quantum of labor, not his wage.

[Anonymous No.24377218]

>>24376872
Nothing, products have no true value.

[Anonymous No.24377240]

>>24376872
fuck you nigger. apple cider now. fruit derivatives faggot

[Anonymous No.24377246]

>>24377028
implying machine-labour can't be equated to labour, read cockshott and take the cybersoc pill

[Anonymous No.24377261]

>>24377218
They have no fixed value, but at any one time there is a true value. Price != value, that's why bubbles happen.

[Anonymous No.24377305]

>>24377246
how much is the apple worth then, 0$?

[Anonymous No.24377356]

>>24377305
The robot still has a finite capacity to pick apples. If machine labor is still labor as cockshott argues, the apple still has value.

[Anonymous No.24377357]

The minimum value is the money that went into making the product (staff, material, ...). This is fixed and exact.

Then on top of that, comes the markup that is based on how much the customer is willing to pay for it. Since the perceived value of the product is different for each customer, and since factors such as marketing, scarcity and hype come into play, this can not be estimated.

So, the value of your apple is manufacturing cost + whatever your customer is willing to pay extra.

[Anonymous No.24377412]

>>24377356
>The robot still has a finite capacity to pick apples
we are assuming it doesn't, since it's solar powered and self maintaned

[Anonymous No.24377441]

>>24376964
Interesting, I'll remember that one.

[Anonymous No.24377449]

>>24377412
The robot isn't instantly generating apples. Even if it could somehow maintain itself forever, the machine still has to physically go to and harvest apples, which takes time, limiting capacity.

[Anonymous No.24377461]

>>24377449
so how much is robot's time worth? 0?

[Anonymous No.24377470]

>>24376872
about tree fiddy

[Anonymous No.24377483]

$20. each subsequent apple sells for +5. ezpz

[Anonymous No.24377492]

$12.50 easy question

[Anonymous No.24377510]

Idiots. Growing an apple is not about picking them. Are you guys seriously arguing over
>bbbb-but what if machine does it for free? Ayyyylmao XD im 12 XD
Apples are mostly picked by theae fancy tractors where one worker picks 100 tons a day. The expensive part of growing apples are actually growing them not picking them. Even if the apples would pick themselves you still need to grow them...

[Anonymous No.24377548]

>>24376872
An apple = an apple.

[Anonymous No.24377596]

>>24376872
There is no true value, the only value is at a specific time when there is an order being filled. If there is no order filled its value is basically 0.

[Anonymous No.24377612]

>>24377461
no

>>24377510
That's a fun fact, but he just as easily could have asked about a magical machine that grows apples. The question was about the nature of value, you can use any scenario.

[Anonymous No.24377663]

>>24376872
There is no value/1000$ as all one must do is NOT UNDER ESTIMATE THE POWER OF POSITIVE THOUGHT! ESPECIALLY COLLECTIVE POSITIVE THOUGHT!

THIS APPLE COULD REACH $1,000 EASILY!
HOLD THAT THOUGHT AND VISUALIZE IT IN YOUR MIND EVERYDAY AS OFTEN AS POSSIBLE STARTING NOW AND IT WILL MANIFEST INTO REALITY. DO IT! I'M NOT JOKING!

VISUALIZE AS OFTEN AND AS DETAILED AS POSSIBLE!

EVERYTHING IS ENERGY AND VIBRATION
ATTUNE YOUR VIBRATIONS TO MATCH THAT OF MONEY AND IT WILL FLOW TO YOU

[Anonymous No.24377696]

>>24377612
>no
so how much?

[Anonymous No.24377713]

>>24376872
your apples have absolute shitstain fruitnomics if that’s all it takes to drive the price up 50%
claim pearcomb, faggot

[Anonymous No.24377835]

>>24377696
The robot can't be everywhere doing everything simultaneously, so it can't be zero. The exact value relies on numerous other factors. For example, the speed of the robot, it's storage capacity, etc.

This also applies to human workers. Bob might be able to make 80 hamburgers in an hour, while Joe can only make 60. In this example, an hour of Joe's labor would have less value than Bob's, if all other factors are equal. I'm going to bed, I hope you understand now.

[Anonymous No.24377912]

>>24377835
cope, you have no arguments against a self-maintaning solar powered robot

[Anonymous No.24377921]

>>24376872
the energy it produces after consuming it and how the apples vitamins contribute to your overall health. retard

[Anonymous No.24378015]

>>24377912
I gave you my argument, if your only answer to it is "cope," it is you who lacks an argument. Good luck with your time traveling omnipotent robot-god.

[Anonymous No.24378052]

>>24378015
you only said
> The exact value relies on numerous other factors. For example, the speed of the robot, it's storage capacity, etc.
ignoring my assumptions. imagine a robot that has the same skill of a person but is autonomous and self-maintaned in every way. let's say he can pick and put on a selling stand (assuming it's free) like 600 apples in 1 hour.

how much is the apple worth?
>inb4 "no, you need to consider bla bla bla"

[Anonymous No.24378154]

>>24378052
Ignoring other factors? 1/600th of an hour of robot labor-time.

[Anonymous No.24378176]

>>24378154
so 1/600th of 0?

[Anonymous No.24378180]

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[Anonymous No.24378206]

>>24376872
and that is why mcap is meme

[Anonymous No.24378231]

>>24378176
How does an hour = zero?

[Anonymous No.24378249]

>>24378176
My English is bad I'm sorry if I'm not clear. We learn this in middleschool but I guess it's hard if you have no background.

[Anonymous No.24378313]

>>24378231
an hour of robot-time is 0

[Anonymous No.24378332]

>>24378313
No it's 600 apples. Why would it be zero?

[Anonymous No.24378352]

>>24378332
because the cost of manufacturing each apple is 0

[Anonymous No.24378509]

>>24378352
But the cost is not zero. Labor power is not unlimited, the robot can only produce 600 apples in an hour. If there was zero input in producing apples you could generate an infinite number of them in an instant.

[Anonymous No.24378521]

>>24378509
>But the cost is not zero. Labor power is not unlimited, the robot can only produce 600 apples in an hour.
ok, so what's the cost of an apple?

[Anonymous No.24378577]

>>24378521
You asked this already.
>how much is the apple worth?
1/600th of an hour of robot labor-time. This is the labor theory of value.

Do "cost" and "value" mean different things to you in this context?

[Anonymous No.24378584]

shut up and buy the new apple

[Anonymous No.24378620]

value of an apple is whatever an idiot will pay for it this instant, who gives a shit about the past

[Anonymous No.24378627]

>>24378577
>1/600th of an hour of robot labor-time
so 1/600th of 0?

>it's not 0
then how much is it?

[Anonymous No.24378668]

>>24378627
60 minutes, assuming the robot is working for the full period.

[Anonymous No.24378676]

>>24378584
KEK

[Anonymous No.24378677]

>>24378668
so the value of an apple is 6 seconds?

[Anonymous No.24378729]

>>24378677
The value is not in the time but the labor, but essentially yes. You've made a fast robot.

[Anonymous No.24378807]

value is a function of time and in some cases location. there is no fixed inhererent value for anything.

[Anonymous No.24378813]

>>24378729
so what's the value of that apple?

[Anonymous No.24378829]

>>24378813
in 2020's us dollars

[Anonymous No.24378992]

>>24378813
Dollar price is not the same as value, this is why bubbles happen. If anything price and value are increasingly separate in our modern economy. It's not like they're just two currencies that can be straightforwardly converted. For what it's worth you say they are sold for "free" here >>24378052

[Anonymous No.24379114]

>>24376872
You see what happens when minimum wage gets raised and businesses gotta close up shop? Nobody is going to work to grow apples and the price of food skyrockets.

I am sorry, but everyone is going to starve. Those two guys were lucky to get those apples at $10 and $15. It's supply and demand marketplace now. I'm sure there are not many apples left and they could probably sell them to someone else for a little more.

In answer to your question, those apples are worth whatever the market well bare.

If the grocery stores were open, they got all kinds of apples and are only a couple bucks per pound, so that larger supply would eliminate some scarcity and apples would become more affordable.

If things get worse, I imagine someone could slice that apple. I think apples are divisible by 8 slices.

[Anonymous No.24379308]

>>24378813
also look at my correction to >>24376930 if you haven't already.

[Anonymous No.24379428]

>>24379308
>>24378992
so, in the case of a free self-sustainable robot, the value in $ would be 0?

[Anonymous No.24379463]

>>24377190
the capitalist adds the cost of risk on top of the cost of labor

what commies perceive as surplus is in reality the cost of risk

[Anonymous No.24379603]

>>24379463
>cost of risk
this is an inefficiency created by capitalist ownership of production. Collective ownership spreads and minimizes risk to any individual. Even capitalists understand this.

>>24379428
welcome to socialism. The price abstraction is discarded in favor of socially necessary labor.

[Anonymous No.24379640]

>>24379603
what if those 600 apples are the only apples left on earth? would their value still be 0?

[Anonymous No.24379684]

>>24379603
also what if you have to eat one of those apple or you'll die, so people start basically killing each others to eat one of those

the labor is the same as before, would you still argue that it's 0?

[Anonymous No.24379704]

>>24376872
Value of the apple at which point in time retard? Value is dictated by supply and demand if the apple sells for $15 now then the value is $15 now.
Kill yourself.

[Anonymous No.24379740]

>>24379640
Their value isn't zero, it's connected to quantums of labor, we've established this. What is the dollar price of an apple to a primitive tribe 10,000 years ago? It does not make sense to abstract value into price when money does not exist.

[Anonymous No.24379755]

>>24376926
This is the correct answer. The true value is what people are willing to buy and sell it for now.

>>24376930
>>24377017

This is why communism fails and they needed the black market to survive. Commies have a low-iq theory of value.

[Anonymous No.24379757]

>>24376872
There is no such thing as true value

Value is a man-made subjective property humans apply to material object

[Anonymous No.24379809]

>>24379740
but is it still the same value as in one of those 2 scenarios?

[Anonymous No.24380067]

>>24379809
We've been talking in extremely simplified examples, which is common in economics, Marxian or otherwise. Value is connected to "socially necessary labor time," if apples become some incredibly essential commodity, they become more "socially necessary" and value will increase, supply and demand still exist, as it does in existing societies without currency.

To go back to your robot example, we've talked about how 6 seconds of robot apple production = 1 apple. If apples become essential to life, robot apple labor still maintains the same time ratio, but it becomes more valuable compared to other kinds of labor. This is why I said here >>24378813 that the value is in the labor and not the time. Six seconds of lifesaving apple production is not equivalent to six seconds of say, less important candy production.

[Anonymous No.24380113]

>This is why I said here
sorry, meant my post here >>24378729

[Anonymous No.24380114]

>>24380067
>To go back to your robot example, we've talked about how 6 seconds of robot apple production = 1 apple. If apples become essential to life, robot apple labor still maintains the same time ratio, but it becomes more valuable compared to other kinds of labor. This is why I said here >>24378813(You) that the value is in the labor and not the time. Six seconds of lifesaving apple production is not equivalent to six seconds of say, less important candy production.
but aren't 6 second of a robot harvesting a normal apple and a life-saving one the same? i mean the robot's labor. robot doesn't know if the apple is life-saving or not, so according to your intepretation it would have the same value in both cases, and the robot would get paid the same

[Anonymous No.24380131]

>>24377492
This

[Anonymous No.24380182]

>>24376872
Ffs shut up just buy and hodl the apples

[Anonymous No.24380218]

>>24376872
Whatever you/they are willing to pay for it. We can go on about production costs and inflation, but the simple fact is everything is worth what its purchaser will pay for it.

Plus this >>24376896

[Anonymous No.24380227]

>>24377189
>>24377596
>>24378620
>>24378807
>>24379755
>>24379757
Based and Mengerpilled

[Anonymous No.24380245]

>>24376896

[Anonymous No.24380266]

The Apple should be free as it is Tree Advertising. Trees create fruit so that birds and other animals consume the seeds then shit them out to create more trees in other locations. Man is a piggish consumer who thinks he can control Mother Nature’s Tree Racket.

[Anonymous No.24380289]

>>24380114
>but aren't 6 second of a robot harvesting a normal apple and a life-saving one the same?
The robot would have performed 6 seconds of apple labor in both realities. However, six seconds of apple labor is more valuable compared to other forms of labor in your second scenario. It's value has greatly appreciated in your second scenario. As I said, labor value != labor time.

[Anonymous No.24380377]

>>24376872
why would u sell the apple?? hoodl

[Anonymous No.24380475]

>>24380182
>t. Sergey

[Anonymous No.24380633]

>>24380114
I've been putting it off, but I need to go as I'm on kiwi time. Check out Marx's Critique of the Gotha Programme if you still have questions

https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1875/gotha/ch01.htm

picrel is particularly helpful, discussing exchange in the first phase of communism (aka socialism)

[Anonymous No.24380637]

>>24376930
No, the value of the labour is equal to whatever smallest amount the labourer is willing to do the labour for, much as the value for the product of labour is the smallest amount someone is willing to pay for it. If you’re willing to make an iPhone for 1 dollar and I’m willing to pay 1000 dollars then the value of your labour is still one dollar and the value of the iPhone is still 1000.

[Anonymous No.24380867]

>>24376930
What about the cost of the seed, the cost of the land and maintainace of the soil, irrigation, pesticides etc etc? Does commie santa clause hand all that stuff out for free?

[Anonymous No.24381065]

>>24376872
one apple

[Anonymous No.24381775]

>>24376872
The dollar value is the price the next buyer is ready to pay for it.
However, value can also be intrinsic or moral.

[Anonymous No.24382005]

>tfw i sold all my apple for 10$

[Anonymous No.24383065]

>ctrl + f
>chainlink
>0 results
sage

[Anonymous No.24383201]

>>24376872
Price is what you pay; value is what you get. Price discovery would say the apple is worth $12.50, but the value of 5 grams of fiber, Vitamin A, Vitamin C, and trace minerals is about 60 cents to one dollar.

[Anonymous No.24383215]

>>24376872
What people are willing to buy it for

[Anonymous No.24383266]

>>24376872
whatever the third apple goes for
everything else is speculation and meatbag economist cope

[Anonymous No.24383310]

>>24376872
What was the cost to cultivate them? Have you considered selling more apples and letting the market decide the price?

[Anonymous No.24383361]

>>24376930
And if I pay them nothing?

[Anonymous No.24383386]

>>24377189
Not a good way to run a business however.

[Anonymous No.24383406]

>>24377190
Workers are capitalists too.

[Anonymous No.24383425]

>>24376872

The value of anything is what someone is willing to pay for it.

[Anonymous No.24383451]

>>24376872
1 apple

[Anonymous No.24383458]

>>24378577
Cost is what you pay, value is what you get.

[Anonymous No.24383488]

>>24383361
PROHET.

[Anonymous No.24383507]

>>24379603
>Collective ownership spreads and minimizes risk to any individual.
Only if the risk is actually shared. The workers must either put up their own capital or else leverage it. Anything less means they have no skin in the game of the business itself.

[Anonymous No.24383527]

>>24379757
>Value is a man-made subjective property humans apply to material object
Wrong.

[Anonymous No.24383537]

>>24376872
$1000 EOY

[Anonymous No.24383589]

>>24376872
you buy the cheaper apple to get the seeds then plant them once they grow sell them for 9$ undercutting the whole market then invest in bitcoin. NEXT!

[Anonymous No.24383639]

>>24376872
Nobody knows what the real value is.
But the third one will sell for $20.
Then after some time someone will pay 1 million for one and the bubble will pop a short time after.

[Anonymous No.24383750]

Just skimmed the whole thread and that asshole never really answered how much the robo apple was worth. He exhausted everything from his semester one at uni of econ 101 but failed to counter the robot apple conundrum.

[Anonymous No.24383795]

>>24383589
Flawed concept as you assume by the time your seeds grow and bear fruit that people will still pay that much. A better investment is to create a logistics train around the transfer of apples, or start selling apple cider watered down enough to make your margins.

[Anonymous No.24383817]

>>24376872
It depends on the whole ecosystem instead of just an Apple. If there is only Apple in the world, it could go up and up as a ponzi scam. However in a typical economy when you sell, you have to buy an Orange from another one and the prices can not increase indefinitely.

It is a game theory problem where the players have to choose their strategies to reach an equilibrium point like Pareto point.

[Anonymous No.24384143]

My grampie planted an apple tree in his backyard when he was a boy. Gramie makes apple pie from those apple every time we visit. I never have reason to pay money for an apple and yet these apples are invaluable to me. So not only are they more precious than any apple on the market, they are also priceless

[Anonymous No.24384203]

>>24376896
heh

[Anonymous No.24384268]

>>24376930
Communism out out out

[Anonymous No.24384288]

>>24376872
Who cares as long as I get my 10% cut

[Anonymous No.24384370]

>>24383795
sounds like you don't know what a bumper crop is since that's how most cider is made id be doing that as well

[Anonymous No.24385489]

>>24384370
Don't move the goal posts Anon, glad you like my cider idea though

[Anonymous No.24385895]

>>24376930
That’s either gonna be a really expensive apple or a really underpaid apple picker.

[Anonymous No.24386390]

>>24376872
It has no intrinsic value.
The value is subjective - based on your desire of said apple.
Whats your point?

[Anonymous No.24386771]

>>24376872

Neither. It is whatever the NEXT person is willing to pay for it.

[Anonymous No.24386950]

>>24376896
fren, I kneel...