/biz/ - Business & Finance

[Anonymous No.23129347]

Redpill me on BTC maximalism

[Anonymous No.23129388]

one satoshi is one dollar

[Anonymous No.23129426]

>>23129347
brain damage

[Anonymous No.23129458]

Dont buy BTC rugpull soon

[Anonymous No.23129498]

>>23129347
It is a good idea right now.
"Digital gold" is a simple narrative that works and has many convinced. There is generational pressure to shift from traditional assets to crypto, and some of the boomers are picking this up as well.
As soon as you go to even ETH you open a can of worms in terms of how to valuate things, how to assess risk, how to compare to competitors. That adds a lot of risk - and, yes, upward potential - no matter how you look at it.

[Anonymous No.23130214]

>>23129347
the redpill is that you had 12 years

[Anonymous No.23130270]

>>23130214
Couldn't really do much from the womb, could I?

[Anonymous No.23130405]

>>23129347
Let me red pill you on the real bitcoin it was always meant to be for payments not “digital gold”

[Anonymous No.23130514]

>>23130405
https://medium.com/@rusty_lightning/the-three-economic-eras-of-bitcoin-d43bf0cf058a

[Anonymous No.23130553]

>>23130270
If you're smart as I think you are boy genius spend a few hours researching HEX

[Anonymous No.23130582]

>>23130405
The fuck outta here with your ghost chains

[Anonymous No.23131191]

>>23130514
You can theorize all damn day the fact is 70%+ of the people In the entire world want to SPEND their coins Not just save them and hope they go up witch some do but it’s it good enough to have them stop using fiat and if they are going to use fiat to BUY THINGS they don’t need digital gold when they can save in actual gold.

[Anonymous No.23131254]

>>23130514
And why build lightning when you can just use BCH or wrapped BTC on Etherium

[Anonymous No.23131266]

>>23130405
if it was meant for payments then it wouldn't have a hard cap supply. monero is more cash than bitcoin will ever be. that said only an utter brainlet would invest in fucking cash.

[Anonymous No.23131331]

>>23131254
there are multiple reasons one is instant payments second is exponential scaling third is "wrapped" assets are really just token representatives of custodial relationship with a corporation. literal chuck-e-cheese tokens.

[Anonymous No.23131365]

>itt anons attempt to convince you to invest in a shitty reinvention of the wheel
>greater fool

[Anonymous No.23131374]

>>23130405
bitcoin CHINK
where's ETH CASH it didn't scale when the fees got like that

[Anonymous No.23131847]

>>23130270
If you’ve been anywhere near a womb in the last few years I’m not sure you’re going to enjoy your visit to us

[Anonymous No.23131911]

should I hold at least 1 BTC even if I am only interested in getting passive income from this crypto meme, even in the long term?

[Anonymous No.23131963]

>>23131331
I still don’t see how lightning is any MORE secure than wrapped BTC

[Anonymous No.23132033]

>>23131911
Yes
BTC is the ultimate collateral asset.

[Anonymous No.23132058]

>>23131963
because lightning is nothing but a valid multisig bitcoin transaction signed by both party witheld from the blockchain that can be released to the blockchain any time it conveniences you. the timelock and the sequence guarantees that the latest settlement tab hits the blockchain when it's time to settle.

lightning is bitcoin and it is trustless. "wrapped btc" is not bitcoin at all, your bitcoin is no longer yours you can not opt out without permission you have to trust the custodian.

it's not even remotely the same thing. not to mention lightning is faster than any other coin anyhow.

[Anonymous No.23132271]

>>23132058
Idk maybe your right anon I still own BTC but I’ve been buying the fudd lately.
>it’s all so tiresome

[Anonymous No.23132349]

I bought btc for one reason: when the NSA/CIA/glownigger shills find out how to trace all of my posts on this site and I get cancelled for saying nigger 18 gorillion times I'll need some startup cash to hold me over after I flee the country. All other aspects are secondary.

[Anonymous No.23132396]

>>23129388

checked and fpbp

[Anonymous No.23132399]

>>23129347
Bitcoin is the reserve asset of crypto. The entire point of a reserve asset it that it has massive liquidity that can always be exchanged and it is safe and secure. Liquidity is a snowball effect, it will only increase. The monetary policy of Bitcoin will always incentive hoarding over coffee payments, so don't get distracted with that crap either. The point of Bitcoin is to protect yourself from governments destroying your wealth over time, and Bitcoin is most likely to be able to stand up to the state attacks when we enter the end game. Something like ethereum can be shut down simply by putting pressure on Jeff Bezos to stop letting eth nodes use AWS.

As far as programmable money is concerned, Bitcoin discreet log contracts are going to eat ethereums lunch. In DLCs, you have a derivative contract like a future that is a multi sig with multiple participants, and on chain it literally just looks like a normal bitcoin transfer, you can't even tell what it is. That's real privacy and the next Bitmex will happen this way and you won't even know how much volume they are pushing because you can't identify it. This is also possible on lightning which makes it scale massively.

Don't believe the fud about ancient tech and all this shit. Bitcoin has consistently the most mature and competent devs in the entire space, and they work relentlessly on core issues that go unseen. There is 10x more work to do on Bitcoin that forcing protocol upgrades constantly just to get news stories. Segwit is the most attacked thing in the space but it was literally genius, and because of it bitcoin can now add new scripting language capability with soft forks which is how taproot will be implemented. It also paves the way for sighash anyprevout and even simplicity scripting language in the future. This level of foresight is unseen in shitcoin development.

[Anonymous No.23132429]

>>23132349
Is this real?

[Anonymous No.23132497]

>>23129347
The downside is you'll make a tiny profit compared to alt holders. The upside is you won't have to tell people you're a virgin if they already know you only hold btc.

[Anonymous No.23132554]

>>23131911

I mean, with one BTC you've already made it. You just have to wait about five years. Bitcoin will be twice as scarce as gold after the next halving, so a 500k+ valuation is in the cards, especially when you consider that governments will have begun accumulating by then.

[Anonymous No.23132621]

>>23132399
checkpilled and baste.

People dont realize that by adding all these 'features' at the protocol level, they're adding complexity which increases errors and overhead - not something you want when dealing with people money. The whole point is to have a solid foundation to then build and abstract upon.

Transaction speeds? coming.
Privacy? coming.
Smart contracts? coming.
Me and everyone who owns even one BTC? cumming.

[Anonymous No.23132754]

16k soon

[Anonymous No.23132762]

>takes a deep breath
I want to thank all the anons ITT for force feeding me my meds. Before I Refill my script are there any coherent counter arguments????

[Anonymous No.23132768]

>>23129347
Its the final redpill

[Anonymous No.23132993]

>>23132762
The counter argument would be the government already contains quantum computing and AI capable of altering the blockchain undetected so you might as well invest in moonshots since destruction of the financial system is destruction of your BTC's value anyway.

[Anonymous No.23133058]

BTC is just a ledger entry.

Why this virgins insist there can only be ONE ledger, I will never understand.

[Anonymous No.23133076]

>>23132993
alex jones is that you?

[Anonymous No.23133103]

>>23133058
you can obviously have as many ledgers as you want infinite amount but there is only one bitcoin ledger. that scarcity gives it value.
anyone can make an other shitcoin but no one can make an other bitcoin.

[Anonymous No.23133215]

Crypto as an asset class is 99.99% based on BTC's performance. You can own the king, so why not?

[Anonymous No.23133225]

>>23133076
I'm just being realistic, that is the counter argument. I know this is like crypto 101, but there is no reason we shouldn't be using bitcoin, it's a better overall system of monetary distribution compared to central banking and legal frameworks, it allows us to digitalize law in fact. Energy consumption, hoarding, transfer times, exploits, those are all problems that can be easily solved. The only reason bitcoin shouldn't be used for global reserve currency is if it's fundamentally insecure. So if governments are not able to hack the blockchain then you should be putting all your money into bitcoin as it's a guaranteed bet and you're just arbitraging the information gap between you and everyone else who doesn't realize it's the new system yet.

[Anonymous No.23133305]

>>23132399
>That's real privacy
Kek.
Sure bitcoin is going to be king but it’s shit when it comes to privacy. And no, taproot is not solving that. Bend the knee to xmr you delusional btc maxi.

[Anonymous No.23133324]

ok ok ok but what about XRP

>inb4 incoherent screeching.
i just want to know how it fits together.

[Anonymous No.23133422]

>>23133225
This isn’t did but Let’s say we do eventually get to a place where the entire world uses BTC Couldn’t the government just start banning businesses and people from excepting transactions from certain “BANNED” wallets and or wallets that are anonymous and not registered with a persons name and ID or SSN

[Anonymous No.23133454]

>>23129498
>narrative that has many convinced
smooth brain take. it's fucking math bitch, are you "convinced" 2+2=4 or is it just 2+2=4

[Anonymous No.23133514]

>>23133305
The point is that liquidity is king and at this point its the only way the price gets pushed higher because it allows institutions the ability to buy without causing massive price slippage. Monero is one executive order away from being banned on all crypto exchanges in the US, but bitcoin will always continue to be offered. Open nature of bitcoin is the trojan horse, but coinswaps and lightning will continue to improve privacy. Sure it will probably never be as good as monero but that's why we just store our wealth in bitcoin, use lightning for simple everyday privacy, and if we need to fucking order a hit on somebody we can just atomic swap to monero or whatever the next privacy coin is. But holding your wealth in monero is just bleeding sats.

[Anonymous No.23133578]

>>23129347
It's a ponzi scheme.

It's a web 1.0 network without smart contracts and huge scalability issues. It will NEVER be adopted as a global currency for this reason. Bitcoin only makes sense as a currency if you live in a shithole country that is about to explode.

One of the reasons gold is actually valuable is that in a crash you have to actually sell it. Bitcoin in a crash, as we saw during the Covid pandemic, immediately crashes as it's a sell button away. People will panic and the entire thing will collapse. It's the opposite of real gold. It's just a useless blockchain that used a lot of electricity to create so people think it means something.

[Anonymous No.23133598]

>>23133578
Name a single coin that scales better without sacrificing something to get it.

[Anonymous No.23133601]

>>23133422
Yes they could, and that's why they will have no problem adopting it. Bitcoin is not actually fundamentally anti-government despite its early political leanings. It's anti-fraud, not anti-political, and as we know the majority of corruption in the US is actually legally protected, such as legal bailouts to companies who then use the money to do share buybacks. Because bitcoin allows you to digitalize law I can foresee some governments requiring every citizen to hold their bitcoin in centralized custodial wallet so they can automatically push and pull pay requests from the government to you. No more avoiding that child support payment, it will be automatically deducted from you by law. That is assuming the average citizen even is allowed to use on chain wallets, I'm pretty sure it's commonly accepted the vast majority of people will not deal with bitcoin and it will be an institutional asset really, much like US government bonds are the largest source of reserves in the world right now and are used as cash amongst corporations and governments while your average citizen uses actual dollars.

[Anonymous No.23133605]

>>23133578
All of this isn't to say all crypto is a ponzi scheme. It's literally just people hyperinflating bitcoin because boomers are now understanding what it does. I have good feelings for the future of cryptocurrency -- extremely bad feelings about Bitcoin. It will pump perhaps one more year, or perhaps it wont. Huge gamble as it wasn't before, desu.

[Anonymous No.23133613]

>>23133598
xrp

[Anonymous No.23133616]

100K 2023

[Anonymous No.23133635]

>>23133598
If I did that, you would invest in them. I'm actually hoping for FUD before the election instability so I can swoop in and buy more for cheap if Bitcoin does moon.

[Anonymous No.23133673]

>>23133613
I said without sacrificing anything, not which coin sacrifices the most

[Anonymous No.23133684]

>>23133673
what does it sacrifice

[Anonymous No.23133697]

>>23133613
Anyone who buys XRP in 2020 needs a mental health evaluation.

[Anonymous No.23133713]

>>23133514
I'm not arguing that Bitcoin isn't more liquid and more universal than Monero, that would be pointless and tribalistic. But you are severely underestimating the marketshare of Bitcoin that is going to be transferring to Monero over the next few years. For example, the dark net is in a transitions period at this very moment, and Monero transactions are skyrocketing. You may think that Monero is only used for "placing hits" but there is far greater usecases that an actually fungible coin will offer. Any type of private transactions with Bitcoin will need to be washed by Monero. Once atomic swaps come to fruition the demand for Monero will be massive.
Long term, the dynamic block size, dynamic fees, and tail emission will solve Bitcoins atrocious scaling.
You can keep your head in the sand about this but Monero is an improved version of Bitcoin. Nobody uses lightning network. It has zero adoption. Bitcoin is absolutely used for storing wealth but it's outdated scaling will render it useless for everyday transactions in the long term.
Oh, and you should look into the TA surrounding Monero, because the accumulation phase is ending and all signs are pointing towards a decoupling. Don't say i didn't warn you.

[Anonymous No.23133726]

>>23133697
instead of slinging shit try explaining to me like im a 12 year old asking about btc maximalism

[Anonymous No.23133729]

>>23133684
Ever being worth anything ever. It's like a stable coin for the mentally unstable.

[Anonymous No.23133791]

>>23131254
Fucking retard "Etherium" has even more fees than Bitcoin.

[Anonymous No.23133801]

>>23133605
Lol, people buying bitcoin /=/ people understanding bitcoin. The cartels have only recently started using it to launder money around the countries as a first layer solution. As bitcoins liquidity and volume and use case grows it actually only gets stronger, it will not die because it is just too fucking useful. The Mexicans actually give 0 fucks if it takes a week for their money to get back to them, because that's still faster and cheaper then sending it in semis across the border, and it is more secure, no theft no police stops no noise. Let me remind you as well it can be debated that the War on drugs is the single biggest war in the world right now, with total deaths in Mexico outstripping any violent rebellion or middle eastern war happening currently at the rate of hundreds of thousands of deaths, fueling a fucking 15 trillion dollar industry. Bitcoin only goes up.

[Anonymous No.23133806]

I sent my BTC to my MEW wallet. Didn't know I couldn't send BTC to an ETH wallet. I lost $10k

[Anonymous No.23133821]

>>23133729
ok this thread bright to you buy coin telegraph.

>hurr durr all my btc fundamentals is what will bring it value. nvm the massive amount of xrp fundamentals rolling out everyday lets focus on dead TA meme.

[Anonymous No.23133828]

Hard to believe there are people "in crypto" who are long term bearish on BTC, who call it a ponzi scheme and think it will go to 0. Fucking insane.

Don't buy it though, I really don't give a shit.

[Anonymous No.23133847]

>>23133806
sorry fren. You'll make it back.

[Anonymous No.23133851]

>>23133601
It might be a Long shot but we need people who understand bitcoin at its core to start geting into politics to help enforce every Americans right to privacy witch Legally should extend digitally which would include our BTC wallets and transactions that needs to be addressed along side all of the progress being made with the tech before the government decides otherwise because once they do there is no going back and we will lose more of our privacy than we already have which will make the genius of crypto become a burden rather than a tool for honesty and freedom.
We need a digital privacy amendment

[Anonymous No.23133876]

>>23133726
Bitcoin maximalism was prevailing idea of the future in the 2010's. Like trap songs being on the top of the billboard 100 or Nicki Minaj having #1 singles, all things pass. Using bitcoin as an actual network for transference of wealth is akin to using a first generation iPhone to look at the news. It used a network called "2g," which was very slow and annoying. It would take a very long time to load a page. Now we are entering the 5g era and people want 5g iPhones.

Except phones aren't only made by Apple. Bitcoin didn't make a 5g Network, other people did. Which of these competitors creates the most desirable network with the most usage will allow people using their service to transfer wealth faster than ever before. Bitcoin is the floppy disk, which you can google what it is. Revolutionary, and it changed the game. Just as most people held out on buying the first generation iPhone, due to it's crappy battery life, slow speeds, etc. better technology must exist for crypto to be adopted into every day life and for everyone to start using it.

[Anonymous No.23133895]

>>23133806
"I put my credit card information in on pets.com and they used it to purchase $15,000 of giftcards!"

Technical illiteracy is never a roadblock in the path to progress. The individual themselves may not make it into the new era sure, but such is darwinism.

[Anonymous No.23133910]

>>23133801
Mexicans are already using Monero, ese. Even los gangsters know the new paradigm through actual use case.

[Anonymous No.23133954]

>>23133713
Monero scales much worse than bitcoin, by a factor of 10 because its base transaction sizes are 10x larger. You can't say monero scales better just because it has dynamic blocksize, all you can say is that they have made a base layer tradeoff to keep fees low. That isn't the same thing as scaling.
But anyway I hold a small bag of monero as insurance, but its not like monero also doesn't have a laundry list of problems it needs to solve as well. Asic resistance requires constant hard forks, only possible now because the community is small, likely to be banned on exchanges, dynamic block size doesn't allow mempool to build, which means that there will be little incentive to keep the chain moving forward and may be more profitable to reorg the tip to steal the fees from the block that clears the mempool, it also disincentivizes adoption of things like Tari because there is no reason to move unless there is fee pressure, etc etc, I could go on.

[Anonymous No.23133955]

Blockstream kicked out a bunch of developers from BTC core and then decided that they wanted to permanently gimp BTC as a business model so they could sell layer 2 shitware like lightning network and liquid. They also get kickbacks from the miners because when you keep the blocks small the fees go way up so the miners get much more per block, add in asic manufacturers and the big boys have no reason to scale it. They also paid off/acquired all the OG accounts in the space like Cobra and Theymos so you never hear anything about it. Little do they realize they have doomed BTC long term because eventually the only way to use BTC will be through its tokenization on other chains, but if you don't need to commit transactions to BTC chain no fees get collected by miners so only empty blocks will get mined but the reward will be too low so miners will stop and the network will crash to a critically low level where attacking it is feasible and that will end BTC.

[Anonymous No.23133969]

>>23132993

The network is more likely to be brought down by a subtle flaw in the node protocols, or world governments collectively cracking down on machines the run BTC's infrastructure. Don't bring Quantum/AI mumbo-jumbo into this.

[Anonymous No.23134039]

>>23133851
I agree, but that's going to be an uphill battle that will likely never succeed, that's just the nature of government and society. People have been warning about mass government surveillance since before the internet during the days of pay phone banks being recorded and phreaking. Yet we still ended up more enslaved, and likely will this time as well. It's just not going to happen, the only shot you have at remaining free is to either play into the system and become a too big to fail character, or else utilize your knowledge to work outside the system like many criminal networks do. The italian mobs had a much better community reputation then the government, which forced them to fund huge programs to remove the mobs influence. Illegal /=/ immorale. All this taken together is why many people are turning neo-luddite I believe, wether they fully understand this paradigm or not I think.

[Anonymous No.23134078]

>>23133969
That's a very good point, and you're likely correct. I'm not familiar with the specifics my apologies so I'm just using buzzwords to signal my intent.

[Anonymous No.23134098]

>>23133955
Mike Hearn is literally on video with Gavin saying that bitcoin needs a dictator like figure in order to push through protocol changes. Gavin saying that he needs to "throw his weight around" and Mike giggling in the background. They went around and starting giving bitcoin businesses estimates on how many transactions they would be able to push through in the future as if they owned the chain and it was their little personal project. Those two faggots got rejected by Bitcoin full node users. It was a social and corporate attack on Bitcoin.

[Anonymous No.23134116]

>>23133910
Some. Bitcoin has much more widescale use.

[Anonymous No.23134117]

>>23132058
lighting is not secure, decentralized or anything. It's a shit show. Created by Jews, for Jews.

[Anonymous No.23134148]

>>23134117
>Created by Jews, for Jews.
How do I get in on this? It's SURE to moon.

[Anonymous No.23134149]

>>23133954
>Monero scales much worse than bitcoin
Lmfao. Transactions may be larger but there is no cap on the size of the blocks. Dynamic fees long term will keep fees low (which is currently a huge problem with bitcoin). Tail emission preserves the mining network. And random x has existed for a year and no asic has been made (because it is created in a way that makes ASIC development almost impossible).
> likely to be banned on exchanges
They said the same thing about Bitcoin
> it also disincentivizes adoption of things like Tari because there is no reason to move unless there is fee pressure
Explain to me how Moneros adoption isn’t at all time highs right now. We are literally having consecutive weeks with transaction all time highs. This statement makes no sense.

[Anonymous No.23134156]

>>23129347
Maxis are so ignorant they're incapable of even becoming aware how retarded they are.

[Anonymous No.23134445]

LN uniswap clone when?

[Anonymous No.23134496]

>>23133954
>Monero scales much worse than bitcoin, by a factor of 10
A constant multiplier in transaction size is not relevant to scaling. Both chains scale linearly with transaction count, while storage and networking capacity have historically grown exponentially.
>Asic resistance requires constant hard forks
Nope. RandomX is designed such that even a completed ASIC design would not be able to outhash consumer hardware by a meaningful amount. The constant forking you're talking about was a stopgap a couple years ago until RandomX R&D was finished.
>likely to be banned on exchanges
This would accomplish nothing for glowies. It deprives them of valuable metadata about the chain, which is their best tool since the protocol itself is unlikely to be cracked. People who are using Monero to commit crimes are already committing crimes. All a ban does is force them to make their Monero trades through offshore institutions where glowies have no influence.
>dynamic block size doesn't allow mempool to build, which means that there will be little incentive to keep the chain moving forward
This is the point of the tail emission. The problem you describe where it may be more profitable to ignore blocks that collect a lot of fees from the mempool is much more significant in late-stage Bitcoin, when fees will make up the majority of the block reward. ("Clearing" the mempool is not relevant here, as clearing all the high-fee transactions has the same effect.)

[Anonymous No.23134577]

>>23134149
I'm talking about adoption of layer 2 which is required for actual scaling on monero. Dynamic block size means that will never happen for monero because there is no fee pressure forcing people to migrate. Everything will just keep happening on chain. Look at eth right now, fees are ridiculous and now people are realizing they should do everything on layer 2 rollups. Dynamic blocks allow laziness and skip this crucial step. This will cause blocks to be bigger and bigger and eventually your privacy coin will have data center nodes if it takes off. Now you have central control over your privacy coin, not a good look.
Also you didn't even read my point about scaling. Just because you have dynamic block size does not mean you are "scaling". In order to scale you have to get more efficient and get more for less, not more for more.

[Anonymous No.23134580]

>>23132349
>when

[Anonymous No.23134733]

>>23133713
Monero doesn't scale any better than Bitcoin and it's also unauditable; no way to detect inflation bugs.

[Anonymous No.23134776]

>>23133876
Not the greatest analogy IMO.
Bitcoin is a protocol, a good internet analogue might be TCP/IP.
TCP/IP is a decades old protocol, yet most of our IT infastructure got built around it and is still used and is useful today. Are there better protocols out there? Most likely. Are they worth using and scrapping all technologies built on top if it? No.
Bitcoin is the same. We are very early.

[Anonymous No.23134812]

>>23133828
Regardless of what you think BTC will be in ten years, as soon as someone calls it a Ponzi scheme I know they are retarded.

[Anonymous No.23135549]

THERE IS NO REASON NOT TO HOLD AT LEAST 1 BTC
>THERE IS NO REASON NOT TO HOLD AT LEAST 1 BTC
THERE IS NO REASON NOT TO HOLD AT LEAST 1 BTC
>THERE IS NO REASON NOT TO HOLD AT LEAST 1 BTC
THERE IS NO REASON NOT TO HOLD AT LEAST 1 BTC
>THERE IS NO REASON NOT TO HOLD AT LEAST 1 BTC
THERE IS NO REASON NOT TO HOLD AT LEAST 1 BTC
>THERE IS NO REASON NOT TO HOLD AT LEAST 1 BTC

anyone trying to convince you otherwise is most likely a post-2017 faggot or Peter Schiff

[Anonymous No.23135621]

>>23130405
pee pee poo poo, ranjeet

[Anonymous No.23135677]

>>23134776
yeah and tcp/ip v2 aka ipv6 is still seeing fringe adoption after what 30 year of it's release?

bitcoin will rule supreme for an other decade or two. shitcoiners will rope themselves.

[Anonymous No.23135759]

>>23134117
fuck are you talking about? lightning is just a bitcoin smart contract and associated client protocols.

[Anonymous No.23135788]

>>23135677
Shitcoiners won't necessarily neck, the entire point of bitcoin is digitalizing the finance system entirely and shitcoins are the very first forms of equity on the blockchain. It's like comparing gold to standard oil stock, your great grandfather would have liked to have either of them but you hold them for two different reasons.

[Anonymous No.23135891]

>>23135788
>the entire point of bitcoin is digitalizing the finance system
not really no also it won't happen bitcoin is a tiny drop of blood in a vast ocean with gigantic sharks.
bitcoin was about proving a concept and kicking a door out of it's frame. it wasn't meant to solve all the worlds problems. but it does let you be your own bank.

[Anonymous No.23135951]

>>23134733
>unauditable
Every new Monero node that downloads the chain also audits it, verifying each transaction's proof that it did not alter the total coin supply. Same as Bitcoin. The difference is that the math to prove that a transaction didn't change the total supply is more complicated for Monero, which probably makes it more likely to contain a bug. That's a tradeoff. But there's no hard auditable/unauditable binary.

[Anonymous No.23135964]

>>23135891
Then what is the entire point? Because I fail to see how an entirely math based proof of ownership currency isn't about digitizing finance. Computers are fundamentally just calculators, so a currency made of math works with computers. You could theoretically account and ledger the bitcoin protocol by hand, it would just take fucking forever.

[Anonymous No.23136097]

BTC wins because ETH did all the work and Bitcoin does t need to scale when it can show up on mainnet with a sexy wrapper.

[Anonymous No.23136127]

>>23134577
>I'm talking about adoption of layer 2 which is required for actual scaling on monero.
Payment channels or whatever layer 2 solutions will eventually be developed. You can even send monero to bitcoin lightning wallets using xmr.to. But you fail to realize the importance of having a fine tuned base layer. Monero's base layer scaling is far improved on bitcoin.
>ynamic block size means that will never happen for monero because there is no fee pressure forcing people to migrate
People would migrate to a second layer solution because of faster transactions. Low fees is a good thing
>Dynamic blocks allow laziness and skip this crucial step
No, dynamic block size just means that as transactions grow the size of the blocks will grow. Verification and transactions sizes are continually being improved (clsag is within a week and transaction size and verification time will decrease by ~20%).
>This will cause blocks to be bigger and bigger and eventually your privacy coin will have data center nodes if it takes off.
It is true that you will have fewer nodes being run but improvement of technology will offset this.
>Just because you have dynamic block size does not mean you are "scaling". In order to scale you have to get more efficient and get more for less, not more for more.
Scaling means many things. You are clearly fixated on block size, which isn't an issue when you consider Moore's law. You also need to look at tail emission and the dynamic fees which dramatically improve on Bitcoin's system.
>>23134733
Monero is auditable, just not directly like Bitcoin.
Inflation bugs, if they are to ever happen, can be dealt with by forks. It's not like Bitcoin or Ethereum have never had to deal with problems.

[Anonymous No.23136162]

>>23135964
>Then what is the entire point?
to prove a point: that there is a way to make money without a legal framework or trusted authority.

[Anonymous No.23136197]

>>23136162
and why this is important? because trust is always always betrayed eventually. all fiat go to zero no exceptions. always ends in betrayal. trust and money shouldn't be put in the same sentence.

[Anonymous No.23136303]

>>23136127
monero is an overall improvement on bitcoin just about every way. but that doesn't really matter. you have to be a special idiot to think the better tech will prevail. there could be millions of shitcoins with potentially better tech than bitcoin. and it still wouldn't change aynthing. tech is awful basis for valuation because it's easy to copy take nothing at all you just fork a github repo change a few variables rename it and made a new shitcoin. bitcoin is special because of consensus not tech. the tech just barely made that consensus possible.

[Anonymous No.23136309]

>>23136162
Wrong, because gold or just basic goods already solved that problem at literally the dawn of civilization when people didn't care about legal frameworks nor was there an issuing authority. You could go mine or pan for gold yourself or raise some sheep and use it to trade. Minted currency was simply an update to that system. If you mean a way to safely lend money without legal frameworks you're closer to correct, you can ensure lending with bitcoin via smart contracts since it is digitized, but then the main point of bitcoin is still digitization so you can make digital contracts and not contractless currency.

[Anonymous No.23136368]

>>23136309
>Wrong, because gold or just basic goods already solved that problem at literally the dawn of civilization
doesn't really work in the modern world. bitcoin is a digital era currency. not some grug rock or fucking pot of rice.

[Anonymous No.23136404]

>>23129347
You'd have to be retarded to do that. BTC has no use case, except for having lots of trading pairs, and that place is being taken by stable coins. BTC was never supposed to be a digital gold. Satoshi clearly stated, that it was supposed to be a digital electronic cash system, but it was crippled by Blockstream, which wants small blocks so that they can put 2nd layer solutions from which they'll be taking fees.
You also need to know, that high fees is what killed the previous bitcoin rally. This is why digital gold narravite is being pushed. They want you to hold, and not to throttle network. But money's value is in it's liquidity. That's why we went with paper over metal.
With the current block size limit, going above $30k is almost impossible. Unless you're willing to pay $100+ in fees for each transaction.

[Anonymous No.23136423]

>>23129347
You had 8 years, and yet NOW you come at the gates of BTCfags and ask for their insight?
While you were boozing, they studied the tech.
While you were having sex, they prepped for the currency wars.
While you wanked off daily to porn, they came from the imaginary wealth they will own in x years.
And you dare now, as your world burns, to knock on their gate?!?

[Anonymous No.23136446]

>>23136309
this p2p lending thing really stuck to morons i think it's the most awful and pointless idea ever.
also sure smart contracts are awesome but again they won't change the world the blockchain is not some great innovation it's just global burden.

bitcoin is a proof of concept nothing more. it won't change anything at all itself. you will see the rise of central bank issued centrally or federally validated smart contract capable digital currencies and morons will bury bitcoin for the billionth time. because they don't understand that fiat is just fiat. we will also see the rise of sovereign corporate digital currencies and that will be awful. facebook libra would be a prime example if they don1T kill it in it's infancy.

[Anonymous No.23136471]

>>23136303
Lol and this right here is the delusion of the bitcoin maxi. How do you respond to the dark net going to Monero? Am I being a "special kind of idiot" in noticing that people who NEED privacy will use Monero instead of Bitcoin?

[Anonymous No.23136492]

>>23136368
Yes that's the point, it's a digital age currency because the entire point behind it is digitalizing finance. In fact it would work better as a reserve currency with fiat printed against it by governments then it would work as an actual currency. Bitcoin does not negate law neither issuing authorities, it just simple takes the role the USD plays and completely digitalizes it in a way other solutions cannot. The entire point is we can use it on a computer, we can build code around it, there is nothing fundamentally special about bitcoin as a currency other than that.

[Anonymous No.23136503]

>>23136471
>How do you respond to the dark net going to Monero?
don't really care to be honest. how do you respond to companies and hedge funds dipping their toes in to bitcoin? cause that's what we had been preaching for the last decade. hyperbitcoinization imminent.

[Anonymous No.23136522]

>>23136492
>because the entire point behind it is digitalizing finance
no that's not the point. the point is to give you a way out of traditional finance and that's a smoking gun you can keep to their temple and you can thus pressure them to offer a better alternative. that's all.

[Anonymous No.23136530]

>>23132399
100% correct. the only value of altcoins is their relative value to Bitcoin multiplied by Bitcoin's relative value to the USD, the reserve currency of the world.

[Anonymous No.23136558]

>>23136492
>Bitcoin does not negate law neither issuing authorities
ah the curry cashie delusions... bitcoin is above the law simply because it doesn't need the law to function. no fiat works without a legal framework. no centrally issued digital currency works without legislation. bitcoin does it really doesn't give a fuck about any authority.

[Anonymous No.23136609]

>>23133969
>mumbo jumbo
Get REKT boomer faggot

[Anonymous No.23136620]

>>23136492
>digitalizing finance
this was well underway before bitcoin anyhow digitalizing finance is not a game changer at all. i'm almost exclusively use online banking now it changed nothing about my relation to "my money" or my bank. with bitcoin i have a non custodial ownership of a digital asset. that's the point: truestless permissionless secure.
with digitalized finance what i have is convenience and speed but it's completely trustful and permissioned and arguably not as secure as it should be (especially the fucking cards and online purchases).

[Anonymous No.23136639]

>>23136503
lol I literally hold Bitcoin and I have made it clear that Bitcoin in terms of value will likely hold the throne. But you can't tell me that it functions as digital cash when it isn't actually private and when it has shit scaling. More and more usecases that Bitcoin fails at will turn to Monero. The Dark net is what gave Bitcoin it's value in the first place. If it wasn't for the Silk road nobody would ever have used Bitcoin.
Bitcoin can be digital gold but Monero is digital cash.

[Anonymous No.23136650]

>>23136127
Sorry man but you're just wrong. Layer 2 is not going to get adopted for monero because dynamic blocks make it so that nobody ever has to. They won't adopt it for fast transactions either like you say, because dynamic blocks also means your mempool will always clear right away. Especially since the primary use case is dark net transactions which take time to settle anyway, base layer speed is plenty good enough. Therefore there is absolutely zero reason to use layer 2. As we can tell from bitcoin and ethereum, layer 2 is critical to REAL scaling for a blockchain with these designs. Monero will just get bloated as fuck on its base layer over time unless they adopt a block size limit and let fees build and the mempool stack up. Bloated base layer leads inevitably to centralized control.

[Anonymous No.23136659]

>>23136303
When the point is holding large amounts of value transparency is good. National reserve banks just having known addresses would allow a more responsive credit rating or direct lending contracts with the public reserves as collateral and a variable rate depending on the amount in the reserve addresses.

[Anonymous No.23136677]

>>23136446
>this p2p lending thing really stuck to morons i think it's the most awful and pointless idea ever.
>also sure smart contracts are awesome but again they won't change the world the blockchain is not some great innovation it's just global burden.

I don't really disagree with anything you have said there besides maybe smart contracts won't change anything. Bitcoin is fundamentally reliant on internet infrastructure, if you are bullish on networking in the future you should be bullish on bitcoin since it is the currency of the internet. Bitcoin for example would not be useful in a scenario where energy to run computers for everyday tasks like current is prohibitively expensive. Smart contracts themselves may not end up being important, but the capability behind being able to automatedly check payments and receptions is important.


>bitcoin is a proof of concept nothing more. it won't change anything at all itself. you will see the rise of central bank issued centrally or federally validated smart contract capable digital currencies and morons will bury bitcoin for the billionth time. because they don't understand that fiat is just fiat. we will also see the rise of sovereign corporate digital currencies and that will be awful. facebook libra would be a prime example if they don1T kill it in it's infancy.

I see you don't understand how the eurodollar system works. Bitcoin will replace US government bonds as the collateral that nations print fiat against, so while you are right that governments will continue to print fiat your actually just fucking wrong that bitcoin will go away. Currently every country on earth balances their currency value around their USD debits and credits, there is no inate reason for them to balance around USD anymore once bitcoin hits the world stage given it does everything the USD does but better and has a smooth money supply inflation curve

[Anonymous No.23136732]

>>23136659
it's very stupid to mix the old notions about money and debt with bitcoin the only truly hard asset in he world. play custodial games and win retarded prizes anon.

[Anonymous No.23136804]

>>23136732
it's an example of how the public blockchain can be very useful. I don't want everyone to know what the sofa I just bought cost but I do want everyone to know how much my government has, not just how much it says it has.

[Anonymous No.23136827]

>>23136677
>but the capability behind being able to automatedly check payments and receptions is important.
but you can do that with your fucking phone and an app no smart contract needed wtf...
>I see you don't understand how the eurodollar system works.
i'm fairly sure i do. i'm also fairly sure bitcoin will never ever in a billion years replace any fiat.
the fiat system was a huge improvement on any previous monetary system. of course it's abused to shits, but it ain't going away. too useful to people and governments to flexible for tweaking supply to demand. every time a fiat currency crooks an other will take it's place. there is nothing crypto can change about this. except give you a way out of these games and their consequences.
bitcoin will never be money but it's the best escape vehicle for wealth ever discovered.

[Anonymous No.23136853]

>>23136558
Neither does gold, yet you cannot deposit gold at a bank and receive USD anymore. You're retarded and don't understand how reserve currencies actually function because you can't see past the fiat denominator stuck on reserves. News flash we installed a USD reserve system off of forcing foreigners to buy all their oil in dollars, thus creating a commodity currency. and bitcoin will do the same.
You always had the option to buy and hold gold, or oil, you just have to find a buyer and institutions don't want your measly 3 barrels of oil.

>>23136620
You could already buy gold or US treasuries and have trustless permissionless secure money. It's not like that has never existed before. By digitalizing gold you get those qualities on a machine, and you now can commence financial arrangements online.

[Anonymous No.23136863]

>>23136404
>Blockstream FUD
Nobody gives a shit about Liquid dude, the future of bitcoin is lightning and statechains. Also you are a brainlet thinking you can just shove everything base layer and call it a day. Imagine trying to build the internet purely out of hubs. They just broadcast every packet to every other computer on the entire network. Doesn't scale worth a shit which is exactly why we invented switches and routers to segment the traffic.

Also if satoshi wanted to incentivize spending then he shouldn't have made bitcoin the hardest and scarcest currency in the history of the world. In fact, the early days of Bitcoin had incredibly high inflation, but most of us realized after the first two halvings that it is beyond retarded to spend this coin. Big blockers are living in the past when bitcoin had >20% yearly inflation. They literally missed natural hoarding incentive that the drastic change in supply curve brings as inflation drops to negligible levels. They want to spend precious sats on buying a fucking pack of gum and ruin the network in the process. Meanwhile silicon valley SQL database cryptos will still be more efficient than big block bitcoin

[Anonymous No.23136888]

>>23136650
>The base layer is so good so why would people use a second layer
This is such a dumb argument. You are literally saying that the baselayer has sound technical merit and because of that people aren't going to try to make faster transactions on a second layer. No, they will still do that. The only difference is that the base layer is actually usable and not ancient like what Bitcoin is built on.

[Anonymous No.23136893]

>Ancient technology that a bunch of faggots cling to because they're too old and stupid to learn anything new.
>Half of the value comes from retards losing their keys and being unable to sell it.
>30 minutes transaction times lol
>consumes more energy than small nations
>most of the miners are Chinese
>oh btw, 30 minute transaction times

[Anonymous No.23136907]

>>23136804
and i want direct democracy which could easily be made possible in the digital 21st century using available technology from cryptocurrencies and distributed voting systems.

but that won't happen either it wasn't possible 50 years ago it's entirely possible today but some pretty fucking powerful people would hate the idea and fight it with everything they have.

they actually like things as they are. and things will stay as they are. except you and me have an option to escape custodial crony banking and finance yet enjoy the fruits and freedom of the digital era and stay ahead of inflation.

it's wonderful but don't expect any more...

[Anonymous No.23136969]

>>23136853
>You could already buy gold or US treasuries and have trustless permissionless secure money
ahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
oh boy us treasuries... yeah. about gold it has a horrible inflation on supply and might expensive and inconvenient. bitcoin will completely replace it in it's role. when people talk about being your own bank it means instead of depositing your money to a bank for safety and convenience you can just hold bitcoin yourself. you could hold gold but it's neither secure nor convenient and not liquid at all also horrible premium.

your joke about the bonds i will just ignore.

[Anonymous No.23137014]

>>23136827
>but you can do that with your fucking phone and an app no smart contract needed wtf...
No you can't, you can check that the bank has authorized a credit to your account, because as you pointed out bitcoin is trustless. If you're an italian bank you can't confirm that your accounts have been credited US treasuries without a long process which includes physical verification since the italian banks need to make sure you actually transfered the money.


>i'm also fairly sure bitcoin will never ever in a billion years replace any fiat.
I never said it would idiot, I said it would replace the reserve currency system, because you actually don't understand how the eurodollar works because you seem literally incapable of understanding floating exchange rates and denominated assets and liabilities

[Anonymous No.23137080]

>>23136888
Go rebuild the internet out of hubs then. If you want to visit 4chan your computer sends the packets to ever other computer they are connected to. When those computers get it they each repeat it to everyone else they are connected to. Eventually you reach 4chan server after every device on the entire broadcast spams every other device online in a data storm.

This is EXACTLY what a blockchain is. They scale worth dogshit. They only way they can service the world is if they are used sparingly to aggregate large settlements. If you want to buy a coffee, why should the entire world know about it? That data sits on chain forever to be validated over and over again when nodes sync. What is the fucking sense in a system like that?

[Anonymous No.23137084]

>>23136907
>direct democracy
Be careful what you wish for. I want to see more experiments in that kind of stuff but the results I've seen so far are depressing and make me want a king, even a dumb one.

[Anonymous No.23137125]

>>23137014
yeah i read check payments i assumed you wanted to automate your payments of utilities and shit. i'm getting tired. the entire international wire system is a disaster i'm not saying the benks won't use crpyto technology and federated validation closed source closed access networks to help themselves. it's not gonna be bitcoin or any existing crpyto project that's all i'm saying. they will make their own. one that they control fully and your sorry ass is not invited. probably will be based on a synthetic cbdc like imf yapping about.
>I said it would replace the reserve currency system
no it won't. it can't really. fiat can't have a fixed supply asset reserve. it would kill modern finance and lending.

[Anonymous No.23137156]

>>23137084
i know what you mean. as much as i hate the boot damn people are fucking stupid and prone to hysteria and lynching (for now on social media).

[Anonymous No.23137197]

>>23136969
>about gold it has a horrible inflation on supply and might expensive and inconvenient. bitcoin will completely replace it in it's role. when people talk about being your own bank it means instead of depositing your money to a bank for safety and convenience you can just hold bitcoin yourself. you could hold gold but it's neither secure nor convenient and not liquid at all also horrible premium.
>your joke about the bonds i will just ignore.

You don't understand bonds do you. Please go ahead and explain to me why china would want to offset their 800 billion in USD denominated liabilities with a 10 year Treasury bond that yielded less than inflation? They wouldn't because they are not fucking stupid.

Bitcoin is replacing gold because it can fill its role digitally.

>>23136969
>you could hold gold but it's neither secure nor convenient and not liquid at all also horrible premium.

Wow you mean almost like all of its problems come from it not being digital? Almost like bitcoin fills exactly the same role as gold but just so happens to do it on the computer. Liquidity is not a "hard money" issue, convenience is not a "hard money" issue, premium is not a "hard money issue"
Literally everything you just mentioned is a consumer end problem of gold that goes away for institutions who deal with spreads. Bitcoin is digital gold sure, and that makes it perfect for reserve.

[Anonymous No.23137257]

>>23137080
the sense is that it is a system of money that is censorship resistant and decentralized. It can't be controlled by (((them))). With monero you have additional advancements in privacy that make it extremely valuable. I am not arguing that Monero or Bitcoin is going to stay on its baselayer forever (we will eventually have things like payment channels for example), but having a sound footing on a baselayer is a massive step forward compared to what we have now with Bitcoin or Ethereum.
Just wait until tainted Bitcoin becomes even more of a problem. Or watch as the fees get even more ridiculous. At least Monero has solved those issues.

[Anonymous No.23137314]

>>23137084
the biggest problem what i see about direct democracy is the tyranny of the small majority and the mass hysteria that takes time to work through.

so a direct democracy system must have breaks built into it where a significant minority can escalate the votes to more qualified if a lynching is going on by a riled up politically active small majority.

this gives the public more time to dig into an issue and debate it more and vote again after a certain amount of time passed.

basically it would be costly to use it but not prohibitively costly to use it when warranted.

yet in questions where there is great qualified consensus among the people they can still make descisions fairly quickly.

the other thing is vote delegation. political parties could vote for their constituents but a big difference would be is that if they betray this trust the people can take back their voting tokens before the voting is closed for individual votes and after it's closed for delegated votes. this basically makes it impossible to win by lying because every politician that tries to pull this would get starved out of capital faster than he blinks.

also people could get some reward for actively voting and when delegating their vote half of this goes to the rep. which solves funding of political parties naturally.

but i have no magic cure for human stupidity yet.

[Anonymous No.23137365]

>>23137197
>Almost like bitcoin fills exactly the same role as gold but just so happens to do it on the computer.
that's what i'm telling you. it's better than gold in every which way. but it's not a miracle cure. it's a way out.

[Anonymous No.23137380]

>>23137197
>You don't understand bonds do you.
they are basically fiat with added risk.

[Anonymous No.23137825]

Not owning bitcoin is low iq. I dont take people seriously who I know are no coiners. Srs.

[Anonymous No.23138613]

Rope, buy it. Boom, done.