Kleros juror economics make no sense?

[Anonymous No.22328777]

After reading the Kleros whitepaper and looking into the dApps offered, I was genuinely curious about becoming a juror... but I feel like I am missing something here because the risk / reward (and time) makes absolutely no sense to me http://klerosboard.com/odds/

[Anonymous No.22328870]

>>22328777
>need to stake 8K USD to have an 11% chance of being selected as a juror for the most active dispute category (Curation)
> reward is $3.42 but you could lose ~$68 if you didn't vote in the majority

How is this model feasible? Who tf is actually doing this and has insight?

[Anonymous No.22329194]

>>22328777
>>22328870
I am interested in becoming a juror too, one who does the onboarding stuff, but I am not sure what it is I'd actually be doing there and there are no examples either :( and I am too scared of losing pnk coins
I hope a juror comes here and answers

[Anonymous No.22329418]

>>22328870
>Who tf is actually doing this
look at the OP pic

[Anonymous No.22329502]

>>22329418
I highly doubt pajeet would stake $8k USD to have an 11% shot at being selected to potentially make $3.42 lol.

This seems like something that would take time and effort to actually extract value from. But with the numbers I listed, I have no idea how it has been adopted by anyone frankly

[Anonymous No.22329566]

>>22329194
Onboarding cases seem ideal right? Big problem though - there have been 0 onboarding cases in the past 30 days.

[Anonymous No.22329684]

>>22329566
oh really, no onboarding cases in the last 30 days? that's sad :( But cases in general seem to be going up so hopefully we will get to do onboarding eventually and earn pnk coins

[Anonymous No.22329698]

>>22329502
no he stakes $80 to make $0.0342

[Anonymous No.22329952]

>>22329684
The pic I posted shows # of cases per category in the past 30 days. Maybe earning PNK this way is how the devs expected people to work their way up, as opposed to buying in the whole way? Idk I am just trying to understand the system

[Anonymous No.22329997]

>>22329698
the odds to be selected as a juror scale with the amount staked. at the top you can see that the chart correlates to staking 100k PNK. If you were to stake $80, the chance of being selected as a juror would be like 0.0001%

[Anonymous No.22330110]

>>22329952
>Maybe earning PNK this way is how the devs expected people to work their way up
perhaps that is the case and we just know about Kleros early because I don't see anywhere else talking about Kleros or PNK and the devs are working on a number of things. So we are just early, I think

[Anonymous No.22330357]

>>22330110
The kleros ICO was in 2018, but im unsure how long it has been since the dApps have been live. It does seem like the dev team has a lot going on rn

[Anonymous No.22331140]

>>22329194
>>22328870
>>22329502
To explain, the risk/reward balances out when you consider the probability of voting coherently each time - the disputes are usually pretty easy tbqh

[Anonymous No.22331272]

>>22328777
nice trips

I wondered about this myself...they need to clarify this. The risk/reward ratio is based on your MINIMUM reward in PNK for coherent vote and MAXIMUM loss of PNK for non-coherent vote. Id just like to see it in practice how much would get lost for a non-coherent vote, Im not risking 5000 PNK right now.

Non-coherent jurors PNK lost is divided up and rewarded to coherent jurors.

[Anonymous No.22331335]

>>22328777
What a stupid fucking idea

[Anonymous No.22331349]

>>22331140
>>22331140
But if you need to stake nearly $10 USD of PNK to become a juror with a decent chance of being selected, doesn't the risk far outweigh the reward? Unless the redistributed PNK rewards from coherent voting is more substantial than the ETH payout? I mean from my example chart, you would need to be a coherent voter roughly 20 times in order to cover a single incoherent vote loss.

I have heard that most disputes are pretty easy yeah, but the amount needed to be selected is a pretty huge bottleneck at the current prices no? Especially when it would be near impossible to get selected for 20 cases at the current usage level

[Anonymous No.22331381]

>>22331272
What is preventing people from all collectively just auto selecting something like.. “guilty” for example for every case in which everyone is majority.

[Anonymous No.22331442]

>>22331349
the risk reward is max risk and minimum reward.

the problem is the devs havent defined what determines what % PNK is lost in each case. Does it depend on the number of jurors? I have no idea

[Anonymous No.22331537]

>>22331335
Small claims courts are insanely backed up and this would also remove lawyer retaining fees from the picture. The jurors need to stake their position to be "employed" by the system so they have skin in the game... It actually seems like an incredibly good idea?

[Anonymous No.22331557]

>>22328870
>>22329194
I’m currently staked in the onboarding court, but havent been picked yet as there arent any cases right now.
Im going to buy more PNK and re-stake my whole stack in curation to try and get selected as that seems to be the only place with action right now.

The guy’s math in >>22328870 isnt quite accurate. You get PNK and ETH for voting correctly, but if you vote wrong you only lose the portion of PNK you put up for risk. you dont lose ETH for wrong votes, only the gas fees to get your PNK onto the court.

[Anonymous No.22331591]

>>22331381
You need to stake PNK on each case you are a juror for (ie, stake $68 PNK to make $3.50 if you vote in the majority). It would make no sense to just guess because you would never recover from itif you were wrong 1/20 times

[Anonymous No.22331608]

>>22331557
For clarification, ive got about 47K PNK “staked” in the court, but in any particular case i’d presumably vote on i’m only risking about 1000 PNk

[Anonymous No.22331637]

>>22331381
>>22331591
Sry I misread. If people who are jurors try to cheat the system and collectively say "guilty" then nobody would use the system, now would they. It would provide a return in the short run, but would obviously tank the value of the coin... which no juror would want because they have to stake a huge amount of PNK to be in the game

[Anonymous No.22331735]

>>22331557
Thanks for chiming in, I was hoping an actual juror would appear at some point lol. 47k PNK isn't even halfway to hitting the amount of stake needed to join the curation court. How are you justifying the stake for such a low payout (even if it you do get 100% coherent votes). I am just trying to understand where the real value is in being a juror

[Anonymous No.22332029]

>>22331557
reading the whitepaper im a bit confused...it says the formula for PNK lost is (total PNK being redistributed) x (min stake) x juror weight...someone explain please the math doesnt add up, im doing it wrong. Its under part 4.6 in the whitepaper

[Anonymous No.22332113]

>>22331381
1. appeals court would be a new set of jurors and you can appeal at least 2 times

2. you would never know if the people you were colluding with were just scamming you to vote incoherently so they could get yr PNK. Incoherent jurors PNK lost is distrubuted among coherent jurors.

[Anonymous No.22332138]

>>22331140
>>22331557
>>22331608
Thank you for the info fellas. I might go ahead and stake in the onboarding section and sit tight until something pops up. I'm going to go look now

[Anonymous No.22332154]

>>22328777
meh fuck it im gonna go stake in curation right now its a small stake. just as a test to see.

[Anonymous No.22332277]

>>22332029
alpha * min stake * juror weight (an integer, usually being 1 it appears). Alpha is a factor voted on by people holding governance tokens. So I think the easiest explanation is just that an incoherent vote will cause the juror to lose the minimum stake in most cases.

[Anonymous No.22332346]

>>22332154
ahh...good job devs they did onboarding as a place for jurors and companies to test kleros only 1000 PNK min stake

12 FUCKING DOLLARS JUST TO STAKE MY LITTLE 1000 PNK ARE YOU KIDDING ME VITALIA

[Anonymous No.22332389]

>>22332277
in the whitepaper it says alpha is total amount distributed to jurors....thats why the math doesnt make sense to me

[Anonymous No.22332410]

you tards still talking about kleros? no one buying this stupid ass shit

[Anonymous No.22332431]

>>22331272
Just for reference, I lost 2.5k pinkies for miss clicking (yes actually) my vote on case 267.
Not that much, but still kinda sucks kek.

[Anonymous No.22332472]

>>22332410
We're talking about actually using it and understanding the tech

imagine that a thread on biz not about mooning shitcoins

[Anonymous No.22332488]

>>22332346
Yeah I never said affordable gas fees

[Anonymous No.22332506]

>>22331637
>>22332113
Ok, thanks for the reasonable answers. I was talking about this with my friends about what would keep group bias, such as a group of whales all in 1 case, from exploiting the system.

[Anonymous No.22332566]

>>22332389
Yeah it's not totally clear what the value is in actuality... but it appears that it's a scale for total tokens taken from non-coherent voters

Footnote 9 on alpha:
>Token redistribution mechanisms are still under active research and we may end up with a more sophisticated
protocol in future work.

[Anonymous No.22332596]

>>22328777
Where to buy

[Anonymous No.22332630]

>>22332596
Binance sirs!

Oh wait, thought we were in 2021 already...

Uh, ehm

Uniswap sirs!

[Anonymous No.22332660]

>>22332506
its in the whitepaper. Its clear Devs tried to hack their own system many times, thats why Kleros will work. They made it increasing harder to game the system

[Anonymous No.22332690]

>>22332431
how did you misclick? didnt you have to confirm yr vote? yr telling me you misclicked twice

[Anonymous No.22332746]

>>22332690
I was changing gas fees manually and went back and forth, so yeah. I confirmed twice.

[Anonymous No.22332782]

>>22332746
oof sry 4 ur loss

[Anonymous No.22332847]

>>22332746
ooff...see its better not to be cheap and just pay the goddamned fees until vitalia fixes them sometime in 2034

[Anonymous No.22332877]

literally no one will use this system, you all understand that right?

[Anonymous No.22332878]

>>22332847
Or I can stop having ADHD and actually look before doing something involving securities, but I digress.

[Anonymous No.22332895]

>>22332878
kek

[Anonymous No.22332902]

>>22331735
dude where the hell are you getting your numbers the min stake to be on the curation court in 1600. I'm looking that the actual court dashboard right now. the AVERAGE amount staked by jurors in curation is something like 67k so maybe that's what you meant

Keep in mind: PNK STAKED =/= PNK 'AT RISK'
the PNK you stake is basically like buying many tickets for a single raffle contest; except you're not actually spending anything in the sense that your staked PNK is still owned by you. try to think of it more like voting shares that a stockholder might hold in a company (I hold more shares, so I have more voting power etc)
I risked more of my money (47k PNK worth) to buy into the whole Kleros concept, so I should ostensibly get higher priority than someone who only bought 1k PNK and is staking that. That's really the best way I can try to describe it from my perspective.
Out of my 47k PNK, only something like 500-1000 is actually 'locked up' in any single case I'm a juror on and actually subject to being lost and redistributed if I vote wrong.
Hope that helps clarify things a bit more.

[Anonymous No.22332922]

>>22328870
reward is th ETH+reward USD (PNK). You get both eth from the contract and pnk from the other jurors

[Anonymous No.22332952]

>>22332113
>>22332029
The two parties seeking arbitration in the kleros court also put up a certain amount of PNK and ETH at the outset and this also get thrown in the pot when it comes to distributing rewards for the coherent voters

[Anonymous No.22333050]

>>22332877
Your statement is outrageous and I won't stand for it.
I'll see your candy ass in Kleros court.

[Anonymous No.22333062]

The example being used in the Whitepaper. The only problem I see is how is one person suppose to tell the other person to put their money on the line in a smart contract to be judged. Getting a lawyer is expensive but there is no force that should make the person to be put into a kleros court case. What if the person she was trying to dispute with just ignored her. She would have to still use a lawyer to get any meaningful progress.

[Anonymous No.22333179]

>>22333062
Arbitration clauses are written into the contracts at the beginning of the business arrangement.
Presumably if one or both parties are not willing to draft mutually agreeable terms for arbitration in the event of a future dispute then either the business deal doesn't go forward or they agree to resolve disagreement using some mechanism other then Kleros.
I'm not sure I understand your point.

[Anonymous No.22333246]

I always thought this project was a meme but am pretty impressed reading this thread and see the use.

But what about gas? I mean you need to use gas to vote, and then claim rewards,.right? So that's like $100 to earn $3 going off last week's fees?

[Anonymous No.22333269]

>>22328777
>777
chekd
>>22328870
>$3.42
AHAHAHAHAHA y-you don't have to pay gas for that right?

[Anonymous No.22333280]

>>22333179
I guess if you were perform a trade/transaction you would draw a contract prior. I was thinking of what happens if there was a disagreement after the trade was done, such as in the whitepaper about the quality of the work. But I guess if there was no prior agreement to use Kleros then there wouldn't be any legal grounds to use it overall.

[Anonymous No.22333284]

>>22333062
It's an insurance cost rolled into the contract when the original deal is penned. You're right nobody needs to do this, but if someone wanted to start out on Fiverr or something and had no reviews, it would be a great way to build client trust right off the bat.

[Anonymous No.22333298]

>>22333246
good question...you pay the fees to stake who pays the fees to get the reward

[Anonymous No.22333344]

>>22333246
I didn't even touch on this in my original post, but yeah that's a pretty huge factor stopping anyone from being a juror atm

[Anonymous No.22333385]

>>22333246
That's the only variable in this I haven't been able to account for yet, but it would at least appear that you can sandbag PNK and ETH rewards in your Kleros juror profile/dashboard/whatever, so you can save up a sizable amount before you you expend gas fees withdrawing out of the court system.
Since this is all still no early and exciting I'm willing to risk the fees on a few cases to see how it works and report back.
If the ETH rewards are swallowed up by gas fees every time they are awarded to you then yes, that would be a HUGE oversight on the part of the development team.

[Anonymous No.22333461]

>>22333062
getting a small fee from every nondisputed contract to have the option to use kleros is where the real cheesecake will be. Imagine all those contracts that dont get disputed and both parties paying a dollar each for the option to dispute

[Anonymous No.22333470]

sirs, there is too much syllables in words being used in this thread and paragraphs are too long to read, please just do the needful, chutya

[Anonymous No.22333575]

>>22333280
>I was thinking of what happens if there was a disagreement after the trade was done
it wouldn't matter, because contractual relationship - even one where a dispute arises, there's usually a clause written somewhere like "Any controversy or claim arising out of or relating to this contract,or the breach thereof, shall be settled by arbitration administered by the [.....]"
Arbitration isn't for suing people to comply or forcing perform pre-agreed services, it's usually for when both parties are already at the table and are sick of arguing back and forth, but can't came to terms that either can live with, so they appoint a neutral third party to render a ruling and let everybody move on with their lives.

[Anonymous No.22333619]

>>22333470
By the milk of Lakshmi's breastages you will silence yourself and interrupt this discussion no further.
good day

[Anonymous No.22333624]

>>22328777
Yeah. Duh.
Kleros' juror system doesn't work. Trumpbux though? Just see for yourself dumbass.

[Anonymous No.22333642]

>>22333575
arbitration is to save money and time by avoiding the court system. The problem now is, arbitrators are all ex-judges and retired lawyers and expect to make 300 bucks an hour. Arbitration is literally a retiree job so lawyers can buy that third vacation home

[Anonymous No.22333821]

>>22333642
yeah what you said pretty much sums it up.

[Anonymous No.22333837]

>>22332877
SIR BY VISHNU WE WILL BE AT THE MOON

[Anonymous No.22333964]

>>22333837
MOON?
IT IS CLEARLY WRITTEN IN THE SACRED TEXT OF THE BHAGAVAD GITA THAT WE WILL REACH A DISTANCE NO LESS THAN THAT OF MARS OR MAYBE EVEN JUPITER
PRAISE DURGA MAY SHE BRING THE MONSOON RAINS EARLY THIS YEAR.

[Anonymous No.22333971]

>>22328870
Its called game theory and is the reason why you cant just go in and troll vote to fuck with people. It incentivizes actually researching and being knowledgeable of the case types you're going to get therefore at the end, the sensible majority who did their due diligence make money and retards get btfo.
Just do some research on game theory.

[Anonymous No.22333973]

>bought 7k more pnk coins yesterday
>already down another £200 in one day
this is the coin that keeps on giving. I will no longer be doing the 'needful'

[Anonymous No.22334007]

>>22333619
SIR i summon SARASWATTI herhim self in retaliatory response to this threat of deity intervention on the part of you, meet on teamviewer with your avatar and i shall bring mine, and together by ganesh we shall settle this score, and if not then let the Karlos court decide

[Anonymous No.22334039]

>>22333837
lmao yes by Vishnu indeed sirs!!
Moon mission like a motherbitch sirs!

[Anonymous No.22334118]

>>22333973
SHIVA FINDS YOUR LACK OF COMMITMENT IN THIS MATTER TO BE MOST SHAMEFUL
YOU WILL NEVER BE ENTRUSTED WITH THE SACRED SHANKARA STONES NOR WILL YOU DRINK FROM THE GANGES
MAY YOU INSTEAD BATHE IN THE FILTH THAT IS YOUR MOTHER'S VAGINAL SWEAT
i said good day sir

[Anonymous No.22334194]

>>22334039
Brother, how many American women will you have after moon?

[Anonymous No.22334197]

>>22328777
Bitch cunt, the stoopid Kleros crashed half of its price now I have negative tuk tuk for village
https://youtu.be/MCew31nt8n0

[Anonymous No.22334230]

>>22334118
SIR I HAVE ALREADY COMMITTED THOUSAAAAAAAANDS TO THE CAUSE

[Anonymous No.22334236]

>>22334039
sir the needful sir, do you speak it madarchod

[Anonymous No.22334318]

>>22334194
Ranjesh after moon I will have to purchase multiple estates to house my flocks of Aryan women
THIS IS VERY MUCH PROFIT COIN SIRS
>>22334230
you will be rewarded greatly sirs, many cows and White women are in your future sirs!!
Shit in the street with great pride and fullness as you have done the needful!

[Anonymous No.22334498]

>>22334318
god I really do hope you are right. i will be using the money for surgeries so its quite important to me this project does well baka

[Anonymous No.22334712]

>>22334498
DO NOT CUT YOUR DICK OFF SIRS, THOUGHTS OF THE ROPE WILL HAUNT YOU SIRS

[Anonymous No.22334812]

>>22334712
dont worry sir not that surgery.
do you think we are headed to $0.05? :(

[Anonymous No.22334917]

>>22334812
headed to $5 anon

[Anonymous No.22334924]

remeber Sirs Vishnu will grate all us with wonderfull shitting street for village

[Anonymous No.22335002]

>>22334917
i really hope so :(
>>22334924
y-yeah

[Anonymous No.22335515]

>>22333821
also, as in the basic examples on the website, if you live in chile and hire a web designer in sweden, how are you going to have an arbitrator thats cost effective and binding? You cant. The current system is built purely on reputation