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21539248 No.21539248 [Reply] [Original] [archived.moe]

Are hardware wallets sufficient? They are what all the normie crypto outlets suggest but Ledger hardware is closed source and could one day be exploited. I don't want to be bogged

>> No.21539740
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use a liveusb like tails on an airgapped PC to generate a wallet, for peace of mind you can send a small amount to it then try signing an offline transaction to ensure you can send and receive funds with it. Buy a few metal backups like a cryptosteel and back up the seed phrase, store this in a safe or somewhere nobody will find it. Format the USB. Now you have a secure metal wallet

>> No.21539766

hardware wallets are not for storing crypto they are for spending it.

>> No.21539796

i prefer the titanium plates, but any good steel+ will suffice.

>> No.21539809

does that go up uranus?

>> No.21539943

imagine making it, then you drop this piece of shit on the ground and the tiles pop off and fly everywhere

>> No.21540074

Paper Wallets and seed phrase/private key in a safety deposit box. Seperate clean free linux or device for accessing when you want to withdraw

>> No.21540125

the best place to store crypto is on the exchange also you can swap coins easily

>> No.21540175
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this it's basically the most secure way to spend them but all someone needs is your pin to do it, so I still wouldn't store the bulk of your savings in a hardware wallet. also first rule of crypto, DO NOT TALK ABOUT CRYPTO, or at least how much of it you have and how you store it. If nobody knows you have it they won't try to steal it

kek yeah I thought about that, but it's not going anywhere when it's inside the case. My only worry would be about the cap seizing up, titanium plates might be better but I think any metal backup is fine in most cases, as long as you have a few copies

>> No.21540403

>hardware wallets are not for storing crypto they are for spending it.

>> No.21540488

.... you don't store the coins on a hardware wallet or any other wallet for that matter, these wallets are just a means of owning the private keys that proves YOU own xyz coins/tokens hence you can spend them

>> No.21540515

Too late for that, I was dumb enough to trust even a single person and now the cat is out of the bag. Do you have any particular resources on paper wallets? I think I'm clever enough to figure it out but I'm not interested in learning how to use Linux.

And what's the difference between an open source hardware wallet like Trezor and a paper wallet?

>> No.21540690

Funds are not actually stored in the wallet. It's not like a vault with dollar bills in it.

The wallet contains your keys, the cryptographic codes to get access to the money.

Those codes can be stored on a piece of paper, just as well, made out into a nice phrase like horse battery staple.

>> No.21540877

Yes, I understand that the hardware wallet just provides you with a way to interface with the blockchain and use your keys to access your crypto. But you still have to generate a seed phrase that has to be physically stored somewhere, the same as a paper wallet. What I'm wondering is whether or not there is a big difference between using a hardware wallet or a paper wallet to interface with the blockchain, since even with a paper wallet you have to use open source software to sign your transactions. (right/?)

>> No.21541008

An open source hardware wallet*

I have a Ledger right now but Trezor seems to be more and more appealing.

>> No.21541047

you don't need to need to learn how to use linux, you just to know enough to create a liveusb so you have a secure environment to generate the wallets in

with a paper wallet you're basically not making any transactions. with a hardware wallet you might use it every day. The fact that the paper wallet is never being used for transactions and does not exist on any electronic device is what makes it secure

>> No.21541055

too expensive and cumbersome to do secure redundancy for cold store.

encrypted paper wallets are inexpensive and can be safely stored in extremely redundant manner.

>> No.21541192

here is the thing trezor has some serious pros but when ledger came out only ledger was hardened against side-channel attacks. not sure what is the situation now since years have passed.

i don't like either of them i think the default security and backup and restore protocols (the manufacturers instructions how to use them) are insanely retarded and just plain fucking bad.

while you can use them safely and securely if you do they don't actually add to your security but at least cost you money and exposure (like customer data leaks)

>> No.21541245
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>The fact that the paper wallet is never being used for transactions and does not exist on any electronic device is what makes it secure

disagree and that's insane practice in general. go on try to get my private key...

>> No.21541443

I mean for long term storage, and not literal paper, You sweep the wallet once you're ready to spend

>> No.21541480

yeah ok, i'm just saying your security should never hinge on no one finding your device / seed. that's insanity.

>> No.21541590

you don't have a choice, the alternative is not write down your seed but lose your funds forever should your hardware wallet get destroyed

>> No.21541662

and encrypting it means you have to remember how to decrypt it, memory is not reliable

>> No.21541742

if you're storing your seed physically it should be split up between multiple plates or whatever you're using anyways.

>> No.21541851

Alright, I'm still skeptical on the cost/benefit of setting up a liveusb and geting an airgapped computer vs paying $60 for a hardware wallet with a slick UI. Thanks for explaining it though, I'll certainly be looking into it.

What do you mean by redundancy? If I want to use a hardware wallet for cold storage what is the difference between putting the seed words + the hardware wallet itself in a vault vs putting a paper wallet in a vault.

>> No.21541859

at least do a 2/3 grpouping

basically you divide your 24 word seed into 3 columns of 8. A, B, C

then store at 3 separate locations: AB, BC, AC

better yet, use shamirs... because it's more secure with a partial exposure like 1 location compromised.

>> No.21541887
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What's a paper wallet?

>> No.21541899

>What do you mean by redundancy?
i mean say an asteroid obliterates your home while you are at work you should have multiple locations to recover from.

>> No.21541958

tattoo your seed phrase on your dick

>> No.21541981

>what is the difference between putting the seed words + the hardware wallet itself in a vault vs putting a paper wallet in a vault

well the main difference is cracking a safe is about 3 hours of work with a hammer and a portable plasma cutter.

a hardware wallet secured by pin can be broken with a few grand in equipment and say under 9 hours with delivery.

while a good strong passphrase protected encrypted paper wallet would ruin a galactic empire financially to break into.

>> No.21542003

I have both, to be honest I wish I just bought the Trezor T, so if you're asking, I reccomend that

>> No.21542024

oh and that's a very good safe i could open most sold commercially in 15 minutes.

>> No.21542110

the liveusb is for making a paper wallet, it's a different usecase than the hardware wallet. Using a hardware wallet for cold storage is a waste of $60, because you'd just be using it as an expensive seed phrase generator

it's just a crypto wallet that doesn't exist electronically. usually just the seedphrase and public address is written down, it's never used to send transactions until a it's ready to be cashed out, only receive

>> No.21542251

I dont trust myself to use a paper wallet properly and safely. So i use a hardware with the phrase is an uncrackable safe.

>> No.21542327

Yes but I can use your 2/3 grouping technique for the 24 word seed of a hardware wallet.

Physical security of seed words is the same whether using a paper wallet or storing the seed words of a hardware wallet. The physical wallet itself does represent a point of failure but theoretically you could use one Ledger / Trezor to generate as many different wallets as you want, and then grind the Ledger / Trezor into dust and buy a new one when you want to cash out.

>> No.21542350

using a trezor with a 25th passphrase/stealth wallet that is strong enough like 20+ chars is not actually bad security. you can even leave a decoy wallet protected by the pin in case you are coerced.

>> No.21542395

Ledger absolutely adds security. No one can make any transfers from your accounts without physically confirming on your Ledger device. Hackers have no way around this short of coming to your house and physically forcing you to do it.

And even then, you can create a dummy seed phrase that links to a fake wallet while your main stash stays safe.

>> No.21542444

>Yes but I can use your 2/3 grouping technique for the 24 word seed of a hardware wallet.
that's still only 3 locations of which you need 2. i got like 6 physical locations and as many digital (on multiple continents redundancy) all secured cryptographically and any one of them will give me full access.

i think my scheme is better cheaper and more resilient but you are on the right path at least.

>> No.21542490

>No one can make any transfers from your accounts without physically confirming on your Ledger device.
that's bullshit.
>Hackers have no way around this short of coming to your house and physically forcing you to do it.
or just stealing your ledger. it's very weak against evil maid. trezor slightly better but it's up to you to use it properly.

>> No.21542508

Ahhhh! okay now I see. As long as you use open source hardware / open source software hardware wallet (Trezor) then you're paying the premium for the UI and the fact you don't need to use it on an air gapped PC (Since the hardware wallet signs the transactions internally right?)

I think I'm dumb enough that it's not worth the risk of fucking something up with a paper wallet. ( Assuming we can all agree that there is no risk of Trezor being compromised with open source hardware and software)

>> No.21542670

>I think I'm dumb enough that it's not worth the risk of fucking something up with a paper wallet.
thing is you can fully test your protocols without making a single crypto transaction to it but you can also just try it out with like 0.0001 btc.

once you are confident you got everything right did your recovery tests and got the secure redundancy stashed away that's when you send actual money to the wallets.

>> No.21542704

MyCrypto with this

>> No.21542711


You store your seed words digitally? Isn't that the first no-no of seed words?

>> No.21542916

i don't use seed derived wallets because they use deterministic hierarchic key generation which becomes vulnerable to quantum based attacks after the first transaction even if you only use an address once. any private key generates the entire hierarchy. a single key compromised will end you.

i use encrypted private keys on my bip38 paper wallets. i also like to dip the paper into molten paraffin to make it not only water and rot proof but pretty much everything proof (except fire).

so yeah i store encrypted private keys in the cloud. unencrypted seed would be a horribly idea.

>> No.21543052

could you explain in detail how you set this all up? how/where do you store your seed digitally? encrypted text file in multiple clouds?

>> No.21543143

one more thing to anyone using seed based wallets: commit 6 words to memory for fucks sake!
preferably group the remaining 18 words into 3 groups of 6 do the ABBCAC and you are pretty much golden.

if you can't remember 6 words you got no business doing cryptography.

>> No.21543198

just the private key part of >>21541245 in plain text. you shouldn't store your address along them for privacy reasons. no one can tell from the private part what amount you hold.

>> No.21543366

also let's say quantum comuters become a threat and you generated 6 wallets with the same passphrase store them together with addresses and all, after the first tx one of your pubkey is exposed a q computer can churn the private key and from that the recovery of your passphrase is trivial. compromising your remaining wallets...

>> No.21543526

well i say trivial but it practically means a few millenia instead of 900 quintillion year.

>> No.21543593

that was my initial idea but what happens if you get into a bad accident resulting in memory loss?

>> No.21543627

I just encrypt a zip file and put them on google drive.
Don't even @ me.

>> No.21543700

>that's bullshit.
How is that bullshit?

The other thing is, everyone keeps saying "ya dude paper wallet is safest" but the thing is, someone could just as easily steal a piece of paper as they can a ledger/trezor.

Wouldn't it be harder to extract a key from a trezor or ledger than reading a piece of paper?

>> No.21543784


The physical wallet is a point of failure, but the seed words can be split up and stored at secure facilities.

>> No.21543820

and what do you actually store inside the zip? the seed phrase/private key in plain text or a json file? and you just encrypt it using 7-zip/WinRar or something else?

>> No.21544038

Yeah, just what you said, but use at least AES encryption.

>> No.21544207

go on >>21541245

>> No.21544323
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yep, i dont understand why you even need a seed phrase. private key is all you need. also listen to monkeypilled's highly anticipated latest single: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MIyBFNjc1kY

>> No.21544413

bip38 uses not only aes but also scrypt for key derivation hard enough that it takes about 5 seconds to try a single password on a home computer and very memory intensive also.

>> No.21544644

>Wouldn't it be harder to extract a key from a trezor or ledger than reading a piece of paper?
like i said theoretically ou get a few hours of security with hardware wallets and safes. few hours to a day. after that all your bets are off.

with a proper paper wallet encrypted with a 20+ char passphrase you get 900 quintillion years (the universe is only 13 billion years old give or take, to comprehend how much is a quintillion year could break weaker minds) security (that much it would take for all the hashing power available on the world)

>> No.21544664

> in case you are coerced
for transfering funds from the hot to cold wallet, are mixers stealthy enougth? Or is it better to go through an exchange?

>> No.21544765

i wouldn't yeah, best if you transfer on separate routes at separate times.

>> No.21545026

You midbrains are overthinking it like you overthink everything. As my stack grows, I'll spread it out among all the exchanges and wallets I trade with now. From there, the money will go out to bank accounts, retirement, ETFs and other assets.

>> No.21545525

so going all custodial is your solution? rofl best thing about bitcoin is it's non custodial nature and you are neglecting it completely.

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