/biz/ - Business & Finance

FWTDHWAHQUD status~ looking up QE

previous >>19511668

Gold is shitting itself right now...

https://www.kevinsworkbench.com/junksilverguide/buying_guide.php

>>19531662
Good, I need more time.

https://silverprice.org/

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

>>19531444
i understand the goldbucks but silvercucks are hilarious! those faggots will never be rich. silver is an industrial metal like copper and noone will gibmve a shit about it. it will neither skyrocket nor hedge your tiny proletarian savings. have fun sucking dick for rent.

>Gold down to around $1695

Is this our DIP??

>>19532407
Read the last thread. If asset backed digital currencies become a thing, the Americas have a strong incentive to use silver as the backing asset due to their control over supply & production.

>>19532407
yes, but the idea is that as gold goes up the people looking for safe haven assets go to cheaper alternatives, that is until they also go up and then attention goes back to gold

>>19532407
who the FUCK pinned this post

What would it take to bring back the Gold/Silver Standard around the World? A full-scale rebellion and beheading of all the Bankers?

>>19531662
>Have gold for hedging
>Stocks for Profits
>Buy cheap gold when stocks bring in money
>Sell expensive gold to buy cheap stocks

Nice, sold my gold stocks last week assuming a big drop was around the corner.
This is due to the better than expected jobs report but don't forget all the deficit spending that's been done these 3 months, gold still has a long way to go upwards to account for the inflation of the currency supply.
Great buying opportunity incoming for both physical and stonks.

>>19532785
yes

>>19532785
Happening is imminent.

>>19531444
Imagine being a bagholder of useless boomer rocks lmao. Somehow even dumber than shitcoin bagholders.

>>19533515
If the alternative is holding fed notes that they imaginate into existence whenever they feel like, I'll take the silver/gold.
Productive land and guns/ammo are probably more worthwhile than rocks but haven't gotten to that doomer point yet.

>>19532003
>>19532023
Absolutely stunning, where can i find holy coins?

>>19531444
Do you ever just,.. sit in your vault?

>>19533767
I'd love to.

Btw, i really love your yuriko posting, your pics are both comfy and kino, please can you make another round of pics for us?

>>19533709

bump

>>19533878
thanks fren. got an order of silver rounds on the way. can do another Yukari unboxing pic set when they come in.

My stack.

Also: isn't it lolz that the market is up today?

>>19534264
>$20k gold stack
absolutely mogs my silver stacklet

>>19534264
>the market is up today?

This has to be the top of the dead cat bounce. It's total madness.

>>19534264
Job report came out today
>May jobs report: US economy unexpectedly adds 2.5 million payrolls, unemployment rate falls to 13.3%

so while the entire country was lockdown, somehow 2.5m jobs were created

>>19534400
>somehow 2.5m jobs were created
fake number don't add up and don't reflect reality. not surprising.
its almost as if they are intent on making themselves completely unbelievable and completely untrusted, even more than they are already.

>>19534400
It's all smoke and mirrors.

The only fundamental reason for the stock markets to pump is that the corporations have effectively killed small businesses for good and have gained their market share, but that should terrify everyone.

>>19534400
(((they))) are getting desperate, we now live in a politburo tier propaganda bullshit. I don't trust ANY numbers coming from governmental structures anymore, either it be for unemployment, inflation rates, criminal stats, social services or anything else..

>>19534342

thank you. bought all of this in March when prices were lower.

I've seen so many people here and on r/gold who have like 50 - 150oz gold stacks. makes me fuckin laugh

>>19534800
>>19534519
its election year, it always happens like this, just now its ridiculously obvious how fake the numbers are

>>19534924
And here I am trying to get up to one whole ounce by stacking fractional European pieces

Mail call: Valcambi Platinum edition. I wasn't planning on getting more platinum, but I couldn't resist this bar for $833 during the dip three weeks ago.

>>19533878
>>19533767
Pathetic same fagging.

>>19535177
Nice, when the depression hits you'll be able to make spark plugs.

>>19535177
>merc dimes
>batbois
looks like your gonna make it fren

Unironically taking my entire stack to LCS today and selling. The economy is just simply never going to collapse like how we think. Leaving /pmg/ for /smg/ forever. Can't believe the time and money I've wasted getting caught up in this shit. Just buy stocks. Always.
>inb4 "bullish"
>t. 1200oz silver and and 10oz gold

>>19535413
>The economy is just simply never going to collapse
define "collpase"
>like how *we* think
this isn't the Borg mind.
We all have different ideas and reasonings
>taking my entire stack to LCS today and selling
Fake News!

I fell for the precious metals meme and all the channels on youtube saying to buy gold and silver. Metals will never amount to much and there will never be a shtf scenerio. We came close with this virus and look the stocks are destroying precious metals again. Worst hedge or investment ever has been in metals.

>>19535413

Do it faggot. More for us

>>19535413
>>19533515
>>19533188
>>19532407
>>19532220
>>19531662
Why is the fud always so low energy?

>>19535484
You know fucking well why you hold.
Hyperinflation (not going to happen)
Economic collapse (not going to happen)

>>19531444
BOEING CHADS... WE FUCJINGG MADE IT BROS

>>19535413
Baby’s first dip, kek. You’re an idiot if you’re not long gold. I know several zoomers/Millenials that are buying calls on Robinhood now. I see them all the time checking their charts and shit on their phones, this obviously explains the market’s behavior lately. It’s a complete joke. These normies are buying stocks now because they think it’ll make them money because they LOST THEIR JOBS MONTHS AGO and are BROKE and in debt working only one part time job at a restaurant that’s fucking operating at only 40% capacity for $12 an hour, holy fucking Kek this world is so fucked.

Who has the silver/gold to dollar ratios?

>>19535623
myopic fren

>>19535501
>I fell for the precious metals meme

Me as well. Which is why I just bought another kilo. We are witnessing the last gasp of this kike monolith. You cannot escape printing to the sky and unemployment the likes this country hasn’t seen in its history.

The jobs aren’t there
The demographics to keep it going are dwindling. And the only currency a 1st world nation has which is white male labor is finding itself despondent and would rather detach from the system as much as possible.

What will last and has always lasted is PM’s. Fiat is dead, it never had a future especially under greedy kikes. You would be a fool to hold dollars and not silver.

>TL;DR: the country is collapsing like Yugoslavia and it is being exacerbated by the fact that we are a non homogenous nation. Get the three pm’s GOLD, SLIVER, and LEAD.

The current state of my stack. The small wooden box has $76.3 in face value constitutional silver, 60 of it is in merc dimes. Then it's just various silver rounds and some American silver eagles, little bit of gold in there too. It's not much, but it's mine.

>>19531444
NIGGA WE LITERALLY IN A SPACESHIP

I AM MAKING SO MUCH FUCKING MONEY RIGHT NOW

>>19535825
Fuck im retarded wrong thread lollll

>>19535547
>calls FUD
>>19533188
>Doesn't post FUD

Do you actually read posts?

>>19535824
83.5 ounces of silver here and .64 oz of gold. I had more silver eagles before but I traded some of them in and a $5 half eagle for pic related because I didn't want to sell my linkies.

>>19535669
>>19535720
Didn't read. Still selling.
>>19535825
>>19535885
You're actually in precisely the right thread anon

Heading out to the LCS now. Fuck this feels so great. Can't wait to immediately dump the cash into stocks and start making money just like everybody else. Even if it dips massively on Monday for whatever fucking reason, guess what? It's actually going to go back up. In the short term too.

Goodbye, /pmg/

>>19536127

Yes, buy stocks on a day when the market has hit a 3-month high hahahah

"buy high, sell low"

>>19536127
nice story, larp-kun
i buy your silver stack 2 bux over spot if you are interested, it's at least $2400 extra compared to what will offer your LCS. Post a pic of your 1200oz and i send you my protonmail

>>19536278
Most coin shops are actually paying over spot.

>>19536364
Provide a link to a shop then, faggot.

IMAGINE INVESTING INTO FUCKING ROCKS OH NO NO NO OOOOOOOGHHH PHAAAAHAHA

>>19536468
I don't know about online shops, I'm talking about in person bullion shops, from what I heard it's a mixed bag, in some places there are a decent number of shops, and in others not so much, so I'm sure for every decent dealer that pays fair prices there are a hundred jews waiting to rubs hands over you.

>>19536499
Who said anything about investing? We collect shiney things here sir, pic related is most of this generals demographic

>>19536499
>>19536793
Pic related

>>19535314
>mfw bought 5 batbois with corona bux
>mfw got $10fv mercs in the other day

>>19535670
Just capped this.

>>19537827
what does this mean?

>>19537827
Can't wait to see the ratio in a month or two after the next stimulus package. Probably will end up north of $4K/oz

>>19537880
For every ounce of silver, there are 3175 federal reserve notes in circulation. This does not imply the price of silver directly, but if you compared this to a few months ago when the amount of silver was essentially the same, we had I think ~1/2 the amount of dollars. Meaning silver/gold would be undervalued because the prices typically lag injection of cash into the economy.

>>19537880
It's schizo bullshit. It'd be like trying to compare the value of a bushel of grain in the middle ages to a bushel of grain in the era of mechanized farming, and claiming that grain is extremely undervalued.

>>19537950
>muh middles ages
If you read my post (immediately above yours) you'll see that I was using it for extremely short-term comparisons of just a few months. I never implied silver should be $3000/oz because of some arcane bullshit, in fact I spoke exactly the opposite.

>>19537880
It's the silver availible above ground divided by the quantity of USD in circulation.

You could exchange $2.65 worth of USD denominated federal note for 1oz of silver in any bank in 1913.
If USD silver certificates were still a thing today, you would need $3,175 to purchase the same oz.

It indicates 3 things :
- the monetary mass M2 is ever increasing, to now insane levels.
- the silver availible is always decreasing.
- silver is massively underpriced.

>>19537950
Your comparison is fucking retarded tho.

>>19537827

>>19538631
Thanks

Bought my first gold today. 1/10oz eagle from my LCS. Paid $203 out the door but I’m just glad to finally start my gold stack

Wtf is happening to the price of gold right now

>>19536127
>Stocks are up
>PMs are down
>Time to sell PMs and buy stocks
Is there a single board on this site that isn't infested with retards.

Updated stack

35 oz silver, $6 FV constitutional silver, and 1/10 oz gold

>>19538873
ya did good fren

>>19537950
Don't look at the 1913 comparison, look at the 6-months-ago comparison >>19538631

>>19539056
Thanks. I really admire the way your good shines. I was skeptical of buying fractional coins until I saw your stack

>>19539080
Where do they get the #'s for circulating dollars?

>>19537950
You lack faith in sound money

>>19538631
Hypothetically if gold and silver ever got to those figures, who would even buy?

>>19539554
If they got to those prices, that's BECAUSE people were buying at those prices

That's how markets work

>>19539554
>>19539609
wouldn't it most likely also mean we were at Zimbabwe dollars?

>>19538631
What website is that?

>>19539669
I don't think hyperinflation is coming anytime soon, but significant inflation sure. 5-10% annualized in real terms, but the government won't admit to it, they'll manipulate the CPI as usual

First up is significant deflation though, and PMs will go up despite it. Imagine the pop when that headwind turns into a tailwind

>>19539783
https://usdebtclock.org/

ASEs > Maple Leafs > Brittanias > Philharmonics > Krugerrands >>>>> owls

Liberdads would be tied for maples if you could buy them anywhere.

>>19539806
>>>19539669
sorry anon. i only deleted my post because i suddenly thought i had asked a dumb question and was hoping no one would have noticed it..

>>19539554
>Hypothetically if gold and silver ever got to those figures, who would even buy?

A small cabin on 100 acres and begin an off the grid lifestyle as the world burns. Using my time away from this world to dive deep into my faith.

>>19532785
It would take the worlds most trusted (I.E. default reserve) fiat currency crashing and burning Zimbabwe style, followed by at least one powerful nation revealing that it was sitting on a colossal pile of PMs and was introducing a new FEDCOIN that was backed by those PMs.

All the east of use of trading blockchain style, but actually backed by intrinsic value, where the market cap could be raised alongside the mining rate.

>>19533709
10 Euro from Austria, 2007, featuring Melk Abby
Haven't seen many reputable dealers with it in stock.
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces13300.html
Numista has some members with it who want to trade

ma-shops.com has a few
https://www.ma-shops.com/fuerth/item.php?id=35717&curr=USD
https://www.ma-shops.com/fuerth/item.php?id=34175&curr=USD

ebay has some, ranging from $25-$35 for BU and $175-$200+ for proof
https://www.ebay.com/itm/AUSTRIA-Osterreich-10-Euro-2007-Stift-Melk-in-original-Folder-UNC-3261721M8-/192890323226
https://www.ebay.com/itm/10-Silver-Eur-10-Eur-Silver-Austria-2007-Abbey-Melk-UNC-Unc-/283892520903
https://www.ebay.com/itm/2007-Republik-Osterreich-Austria-Stift-Melk-Abbey-10-Euro-925-Proof-Box-COA-/132649240678

*****I can't vouch for any of these sellers*****
I just did a quick search. DYOR as always, fren.
Good luck!
Post pics if you get one~

>>19538873
Very nice man. I just dropped $2k on my first gold buffalo. What will 1oz gold buy in 10 years?

>>19540420
I want a buffalo so bad.

>>19540153
Based.

>>19535413
>capital gains
>non reported income

Don't die /PMG/

>>19542033
Everything is just slow as fuck right now

>>19542111
HOORAY WE MAGICALLY ADDED ALMOST 10,000,000 JOBS IN LESS THAN A WEEK!
G-GET BACK TO WORK GOYS!
INVEST IN THESE TOTALLY GENUINE MARKETS!!!!

>>19533667
The most unattainable asset of them all. Paid off land where you can collect your thoughts and forget the world

>>19539048
I like the american flag one, where and for how much did you get it?

>>19542188
Are we now just copying China?

>>19539813
What about this

>>19542510
In order to compete, we must become like them
Yes, communism will be the downfall of the Republic.
The next century will be the boot stamped on humanity's face. Forever.

>>19542552
Not if you can't pay the guy wearing the boot in money he'll accept.

>>19542545
based, but government minted coins are the best for resale if you are into that

I ordered some merc dimes from Money Metals on May 28th, and on the site it says my order status is "completely fulfilled". I haven't gotten my dimes yet. Is that their way of saying my payment has cleared, but they haven't shipped it yet?

My philly is here! Let me take a shower and I'll share unboxing pics

>>19543034
>half hour later...
>still waiting for Cornelius to deliver . . .

Coming in the mail soon, cant wait

>>19536123
What is that thing? Is there anything special about it that justifies at least $425 (the approximate price of a half eagle) plus however much silver you sold?

>>19542935
From my experience and hearsay of others they take a bit longer to clear payments and ship out product. I somehow got mine in 5 business days though so I probably just got lucky. You'll like the baggie the mercs come in

>>19543034
>>19543698
Sorry lads! No unboxing - someone at home got to it first and spoiled it for us. But check her out!

>>19544308

>>19544308
>>19544334
where is Cornelius and what have you done to him?

>>19544308
>>19544334
Philharmonics look terrible

>>19544451
Lmao he's in the safe sitting on his silver throne.

>>19544470
Trash opinion goes in the trash where trash opinions belong you piece of garbage.

>>19543976
It's a ruru owl carved out of carnelian, it's a necklace and it's a one of a kind, I bought it because it's cool as fugg, and I wouldn't see another one if it sold, when you carve stones, no 2 carvings will ever be identical.

>>19544506
You went hard in on phillys didn’t you? I’m sorry

>>19544506
Don't listen to the retards, they are the same faggots who collect coins with the queen on them. Pic related

>>19544597
No, just got the one rando year cause it was the cheapest option that didn't have the queen's ugly leather mug on it.

>>19544624
I friggin hate queen coins.

Found philly a proper home.

>>19544646

>>19544506
if we don't see proof of life for Yukon Cornelius within 24 hours,...
were sending in the team

>>19544646
nice. i got some silver Philharmonics on the way

>>19544519
OK. I don't understand rocks but I hope that thing brings you good luck.

>>19544786
Reminds me to try and consciously make wise decisions.

>>19544823
And my appreciation for God's knowledge and creation.

>>19544308
looks good.i picked up a roll of silver phillies before things went to shit, and they were offering buy 19 get 1 free. so the price was basically spot.

>>19544723
Fine, fine.

>>19544758
Nice! Post pics when they come in!

>>19544942
That's fuggen sweet

>>19539554
You probably won't if it got that bad there would be a loss of faith in the USD, historically speaking silver should be at $652.5 in terms of USD since 1/10 of an ounce was considered a days wage for your average person before 1934.

>>19544953
You have any concern with those bill holders? Bought them for my Goldbacks and then found out they had PVC.

>>19545372
The gold leaf in the bill is laminated - should be fine.

>>19545372
See Anon >>19545400
Also, Gold doesn't react with PVC like Silver and Copper do.

>>19545611
PVC and silver are enemies? This leaves me deeply conflicted. I love silver and I love PVC. I work with schedule 80 PCV every day, and even order PVC valves from ASAHI. I had no idea that two raw materials I hold near and dear aren’t compatible

only buying orders over $1500 from now on, the tax/shipping just kill me

>>19535413
maybe the real suicide stack was the stack we sold along the way

>>19535413
maybe the real suicide stack was the silver we sold along the way

I got some silver coming in today, some Gadsden rounds, will post pics once I get them

A box arrived today

Well /pmg/ i got my liberty coin today, they are extremely nice coins, prob wont get more because of the premium i paid, but a matching bar might be nice

>>19546359
that looks like the box i got today, did yours also have pic related

>>19546504
i like it. reminds me of those themed Germania rounds. i like those Germania theme rounds

>>19546527
speaking of which, i got these 1/2 oz coins (close to a quarter size) and they look gross, i mean the design is good. but the residue that's on them is to much for me. i'm tempted to clean them...
they're only 7 years old i doubt i could ruin that much value

>>19546570
there not numismatic. cleaning them won't hurt anything

>>19546504
Very nice!
I was thinking about getting that exact same coin!
Where/who did you buy from, and at what price?

>>19546359
>>19546527
This was in my box, fren

>>19546631
that table looks just like mine. nice

>>19546662
Very nice. Have you seen the new Asahi rounds? Might be my next purchase. The Britannia bars are also tempting though.

>>19546748
those are nice lookin rounds. Maybe I'll order some of those too.

>>19546625
Last one is on ebay from lspmex. High reviews, hurry anon

Finally got these boys, some are scuffed but very happy nonetheless

>>19547009
nice anon. i love the snek side. but the other side looks like they just hastily put something together. like the detail just isn't there

>>19547455
Yeah, they could've done way better but I like the snake. I like the eagle coin you have, not a big fan of faces on silver though. I don't know but you might rub off some of the silver by cleaning it, don't know if .1 g matters though

>>19545761
It's true, Anon. PVC damages silver coins irreparably over time. It's okay to use for the short-term, like sending to someone, but after that, get 'em out ASAP.

>>19547544
yeah for sure, i would try the least damaging method, maybe just soaking them in some dawn soap. i hear vinegar works well but that's got to be corrosive... ohwell i'll have to test clean one and see what happens lol

>>19533767
Yukari Akiyama, God-Tier Taste Anon

>>19547588
Good luck anon

Am I the only one here who likes tarnished rounds?

Other side

>>19547741
Tarnation, thats beautiful
quality tasteful classic, aged resilient look, nostalgic.
wish i had a stack of those

>>19547741
I think it really depends on the coin, most look better shiny imo though

>>19547793
Thanks, it was in the damaged bin at the lcs, still costed i think over 20 bucks though.

>>19547885
yeah some aging looks fine, like that. the milk spots and what ever is on those 2013 coins i got on the other hand just look off

>>19547919
I wouldn't worry about it too much, I don't mind damage on the coins, I don't ain for anything too collectible, but all in all if milk spots really bother you then avoid the royal mint, they just seem notorious for milk spots on their stuff.

>>19547962
yeah even the 2014 ASE's i got had milk spots. makes you wonder how something that's .999 the same can have milk spots while others don't...

>>19548036
Something to do with the lubricant/detergent they use essentially getting baked into the coin when it gets pressed/minted, it comes out looking clean but then appears after a while, probably the chemicals or whatever oxidizing.

>>19547570
WHAT. MY FILLYHARMONICAS ARE IN PVC RIGHT NOW

>>19548604
Oh, guess you fucked up, time to throw them in the trash.

>>19548604
>>19548674
no you cant just throw them in the trash, that''s an environmental hazard and highly illegal.
If you mail them to me, I'll dispose of them properly, free of charge.

>>19548604
>>19548674
Most of the little plastic flip cases aren't PVC. IIRC it's only the really soft ones that have PVC.

>>19545761
>>19547570
WHAT!!!! How do I tell what materials my coins are stored in? The only cases I have came from the Canada mint.

>>19548860
Pvc is soft and doesn't cracknst all when you bend it, most mints don't even use them anymore, it's supposed to be illegal.

>>19546527
Oh shit are those the ones I posted that were for sale on silvergoldbull for $19/oz?

>>19548886
yeah they were. and for the price i'm not complaining. think i'm going to try cleaning one and see if it turns out well. i'll post pics and a update when i do though

>>19548882
thanks

>>19548724
I am not certain about this but I strongly suspect that the harder plastic flip holders are made out of polyethylene. The softer one are most likely made out of polypropylene. Both of those plastics will ultimately deteriorate over time, turn gooey, and damage a silver coin.

If you really don't want the protective cover to chemically interact with a silver coin, you'll need to get something of archival quality. The plastic capsules that are commonly used to protect coins are made of an acrylic, which *might* be suitable for archival purposes. It'll be better than polyethylene, polypropylene, or PVC for certain. If you can find capsules made out of Mylar, that would be the way to go as Mylar is certified for archival use.

Repost, but I feel left out.

>>19548980
>The plastic capsules that are commonly used to protect coins are made of an acrylic
Just don't clean them with rubbing alcohol.

>>19549034
Based copper round stacker

>>19548980
How long until those other plastics degrade? 25 years?

>>19549119
It depends on the conditions in which they're stored. If you put them in a dark place, you might be able to get 5 or so years out of them. If they get a good deal of sunlight (UV rays), quite a bit less time.

>>19535028
That's what I'm doing with bullion grade sovereigns. Pretty close to spot and occasionally I pick up a near uncirculated.

>>19549034
always worth reposting. i think we jokingly agreed 15 repost is the limit before new photos are needed lol.
>>19549053
i want to clean those 1/2 oz coins, should i put like a wax coating on them afterwards? i got some wax for my antique sword... seems kind of silly waxing a coin though

>>19549034
Very nice, where’s your Pb?
>>19548604
How many filly harmonicas?

>>19545761
PVC often makes silver go a blue green colour and leaves a sticky residue on them. Thankfully the only silver I had in PVC sleeves were 1966 50c coins which are pretty much just junk silver.

>>19549293
Just 20. Getting more once I'm reemployed.
I have to mail some to Anon so he can throw them away and reimburse me too.

>>19549053
why not

Have a look at some silver. Also, what's going on on this board right now?

>>19549851
Janitor striking for better work conditions

>>19549868
I'll double their pay to clean up the place.

>>19549851
yeah the pajeet scammers go all out at night when the jannies go to sleep

>buy 2.25oz gold at $1754 spot few days ago
>spot drops by almost $100

I know its not much but still upset about it. I could have bought 2.5oz instead or the left over on silver.

So /pmg/... what do?


This is about 3/4 of my stack

>>19550138
anon since you haven't put it in tubes, i would seriously suggest a pirate chest, speaking of which i should update pic related

>>19550215
yeah i need to organize it, im close to getting a safe and a nicer box than what its in

>>19550267
i store mine in multiple locations like gun and ammo cabinets. a cheap gun cabinet with a few rifles in it, make it quite bulky and odd to move around, once you pry the screws out of the wall that is...

>>19550138
great taste

>>19550303
i think ive found one on offerup but just need some cash in for once to get hold of it, i think some ammo cans would fit in it though for easy storage and air sealing them with some silica packets

tell me this is a lie

>>19550426
seems close enough for 1 gram, now the premiums on that small of an amount will be huge

Been saving up to get a 1 ounce gold piece soon, want to get a bar but I'm open to coins. Whats the best bar/coin to buy online for the price? (Living in US)

>>19550838
ive been mentioning scottsdale mint has their 1oz bars in assay back, ive seen some really good deals on bars and generics, i think gold is going to reduce but i wouldnt wait long

>>19551065
Scotsdale is cool. I have their 10oz chunky and it's pretty aesthetic.

>>19551065
>>19551286
Long shipping wait for Scottsdale right now just a heads up. Great stuff though

>>19548604
For how long? Otherwise just rinse them with 100% acetone and rinse with demineralised water after

>>19551801
trying to figure out the most kino set up