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1928189 No.1928189 [Reply] [Original] [archived.moe]

>There are people in 2017 who unironically think Communism is a good idea
How do you deal with people who have zero knowledge of economics? It's driving me nuts that so many people think spreading out the wealth more evenly is the solution to all societies problems.

>> No.1928367
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1928367

>>1928189
It's because it fulfills two basic requirements for them

1. It virtue signals to others that they are a noble person who believes everyone should have a job and basic needs provided for. Beta orbiters think chicks dig this thought process.

2. It justifies their laziness and desire to steal from other people.

>> No.1928386
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1928386

>>1928367
>mfw a friend told me Bill Gates success was 100% luck
It was interesting reading his AMA on Reddit. He was doing his course and actually sat in on subjects he wasn't enrolled for and did those as well, including the exams. Gates was one smart dude, then he dropped out because he saw and even better opportunity and took it.

It's nuts these people are so deluded they think rich people get rich because they were in the right place at the right time. Yeah there was a bit of that involved but it took a VERY intelligent guy and for him to recognize the opportunity to make it happen, oh yeah and an insane work ethic. It just makes me confused how these people are so deluded they think they could've been Bill Gates if they were around back then.

>> No.1928635

I've noticed lots of young communists on Tumblr actually seem to think that Communism entitles them to exist for the sake of existing and contribute nothing to the collective.
Like they just want to stay at home and shitpost on the Internet all day and in their mind, that's somehow compatible with "he who does not work shall not eat."

>> No.1928668

Because severe income inequality has historically ALWAYS been the first indication of a societies collapse?

Pure, unregulated capitalism is just as destructive as pure communisms, you need both in equal parts. The very idea of having a government run military is an element of communism.

>> No.1928751

>>1928668
>Because severe income inequality has historically ALWAYS been the first indication of a societies collapse?

Correlation =/= causation

>> No.1928761

>>1928751
Not quoted poster but our modern economy is driven by consumption. The effect of consumption is best felt across a broad base of consumers. It doesn't have to be led by a centralized communist model, but do you think the Randian bullshit spout here is indicative of a long term healthy economy?

>> No.1928769
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1928769

>>1928635
>I've noticed lots of young communists on Tumblr actually seem to think that Communism entitles them to exist for the sake of existing and contribute nothing to the collective.
>Like they just want to stay at home and shitpost on the Internet all day and in their mind, that's somehow compatible with "he who does not work shall not eat."

Literally this, I think there's some kind of self-entitled middle-class affluenza that gives them literal delusions
One of my best friends is a pinko but I can't tell if he's joking about it, because he knows more about communist history than anyone else I know and whenever the topic comes up he says after the Revolution he'd be a revolutionary party member helping everything go smoothly

Yet he knows fully well that historically, upper-middle-class intelligentsia Philosophy majors after communist revolutions at best spend the rest of their lives toiling in a field under the watchful eye of Commissar Cletus the proletarian until they die of hypothermia or starvation or at worst get taken out into the woods and shot

>> No.1928770

>>1928189
Threadly reminder that macroeconomics is pseudoscientific pandering

>> No.1928777

>>1928635
For some reason they think that they'll be given a wad of cash by the government each week and will never have to work under communism. They all seem to think at worst they'll be card carrying party members, none of them realize that they'll be shipped off for manual labor at whatever facility is closest. Basically the millennial admiration of communism is an infantile dream of living like a NEET forever.

>> No.1928813

I am a communist.

I've read all of marx's shit, neo-marx, contemporary economic theory and most current sociological theorists works on economics and shit.

Im not deluded enough to believe communism would work right now, it wouldnt.

However in the future, with the rise of automation and the phasing out of low skilled service jobs to machines the only economic model that makes sense is communism, as it will need to happen when we no longer have a need for trade due to full automation of goods and services.

>> No.1928826

When Marx rejects private property as the bourgeois barrier to human rights, does he reject freedom, the resistance of the people to oppression, and security as other declarations of rights? …not freedom of property, but from property, not freedom of industry, but freedom from the egoism of industry; not emancipation of the egoistic individual of the merely feudal society, but emancipation of all men from every type of class society

>> No.1928828

>>1928813
kk just shill for capitalism in the meantime.
PS. your pipedream will never happen because every time a job gets automated a new one sprouts. You know kind of how keynes famously said we'd work 15-20hrs workweeks in the next 100 years?

>> No.1928833

>>1928813
Let's admit that /pol/ has seen this too for a while. They just took a different approach as national socialism and using military police to quell dissent from economy woes.

>> No.1928834

>>1928826
cool, whats the track record?

>> No.1928839

>>1928828

please tell me what wonderfull new jobs will spring up when the production of food becomes fully automated, and when we reach a point where literally 0 interaction from humans is needed in this process.

Think self-repairing, fully automated production.

All you need is a overseer, and that can be a small force of people.

If you seriously believe there will be new jobs in the future born of automation your sense of scale is out of whack.

>> No.1928845

>>1928839
>please tell me what wonderfull new jobs will spring up when the production of food becomes fully automated, and when we reach a point where literally 0 interaction from humans is needed in this process.
t. 1810s luddite fearing the tractor

>> No.1928847

>>1928834

see my previous statement, where I told you communism would not work right now because we still need manual labor and cogs in the machine to make it move, biopower.

It is the end goal of capitalism, taking the shortcut and demanding it now before we have the means to achieve it leads to the failures we have witnessed.

Marx writes about this in detail.

>> No.1928850

>>1928839
you would be making the exact same arguments 100 years ago.
I cant tell you what jobs will be created because i cant predict the future, but human interaction, law, coding, healthcare, mechanics all come to mind. Manufacturing is already a very small % of total workforce, when it's 0% that wont change shit.

>> No.1928853

>>1928845

not really an apt comparison considering full automation literally does not leave any room for manual labor from humans.

what do we do with all the unskilled workers of the world at that point? Where even the production of automated machines is in itself, automated?

>> No.1928861

>>1928850

>human interaction

so, art. which is one of the only things I can conceivably see not being automated in the future.

>law

AI.

>coding

Self learning algorithms/machines will automate this better than any human.

>healthcare

already becoming automated

http://fortune.com/2012/12/04/technology-will-replace-80-of-what-doctors-do/

>mechanics

are you implying mechanical engineering isnt already heavily automated? Have you seen a modern production line?

>> No.1928862

>>1928853
manufacturing emplyment falls from 40% to 10%- no change in long term unemplyment
manufacturing falls from 10%- 0%- massive structural unemplyment that can only be remedied by communism
see the problem?

Ask yourself, what % of jobs stuck around from 1900 to 2000 that werent in some way automated?

>> No.1928866

>>1928853
You're asking me to forecast what will happen after the singularity.
By definition, we can't predict beyond the singularity.
But historical precedent tells us that new jobs will emerge.

>> No.1928868

>>1928861
t. cant learn from history

i can see why ur a commie desu

>> No.1928870

Can we just ban people who post
>I think people who think x are dumb
threads already? They always turn into an extreme low quality shitshow

>> No.1928873

>>1928668
Citation needed

>> No.1928875

>>1928868
not an argument desu

>> No.1928877
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1928877

>>1928868

>not having the foresight to see where we are heading as a human race

>>1928866
Im not, its plainly obvious we have too many people to allow for a fully capitalist society to even function correctly when it can not guarantee full employment even in the largest economies that currently exist within the world.

Capitalism is a spell cast upon you by those who own land, it has tricked you into viewing things as singular and unable to change but that is not true.

Believe in utopia.

>> No.1928881

>>1928668
>The very idea of having a government run military is an element of communism.
No it's not you fucking retard.
It's as old as government.

There are more ideologies than ancap and ancom.

>> No.1928891

>>1928877
>a fully capitalist society
The fact that you believe this describes any Western nation is proof that you're as clueless as most pinkos desu. All of them already practice various degrees of socialism because we've already learned that pure, unregulated capitalism is disastrous.

>Believe in utopia.
How did that work out for the Russians, the Cubans, and the Chinese?

>> No.1928894

>>1928777
(voted best post of thread)

>> No.1928901

>>1928894
it really isn't, he's clueless

>> No.1928906

>>1928891

You realize socialism is a stepping stone to full communism correct?

It is the concession capitalism has made too communism by taking elements of it but keeping things such as private property rights, as the need for manual labor still exists so some degree of capital exchange must exist, when that no longer is the case expect full communism to be demanded, just expect it to be labeled something else as the word is a dirty one.

>utopia

Examples of what happens when you try and force communism to happen before its time and while manual labor is still required.

The ideology of the Chinese is to forgo the environment, human rights and social privilege in order to accelerate the growth of capitalism and achieve full communism quicker than any other nation state, granting them economic and social superiority at the expense of a few generations of personal liberty.

If you cant see that is actually working for China you are deluded.

I dont agree with it, nor would I want to partake in it but I do understand it.

>> No.1928920

Marx saved capitalism by telling them it was on the edge of suicide. Really makes you think.

>> No.1928923

>>1928845
How can you cretins grasp that past performance is not indicative of future performance in the stock market yet unconditionally believe the complete opposite in real life?

>> No.1928939

>>1928906
>they only use capitalism because the next step is communism
>and communism leads us to utopia

Do you realize that you could replace the word "communism" with any ideology, religion, thought system here? Christianity, Judaism, Islam, National Socialism, Feudalism, Environmentalism. It seems like you try to change everything so it fits your "hard-won" conclusion you are not ready to give up. Maybe you invested to much energy in this fallacy.

>> No.1928940

>>1928861
>The only thing left to do after the singularity and post-scarcity communism will be to make and consume art and masturbate all day

Fucking hell, what's the point of being alive if it reduces everyone to a NEET?
I think you've just made me an Anarcho-Primitivist

>> No.1928943
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1928943

Why does /biz/ vote against its own economic interest?

>> No.1928953

>>1928940
goto space and fuck alien bitches, take drugs, make music and fuck each other senseless with space dongs.

>>1928939
apart from communism is based on economic theory and is actually feasable, backed by sociological, economic and psychological academic theory.

Half of those comparisons are nothing a like, keep your fingers in your ears and keep paying the landlord the right to live in a house.

>> No.1928976
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1928976

>>1928953
>sensual hedonism bro!
You're a dopamine burnout depressive waiting to happen.
>Implying we won't all be hooked up to the virtual world living out our fantasies in soma-induced bliss before we get to space
Earth will be a graveyard world and nobody will bother reproducing

Shoo shoo aldous huxley

>> No.1928979

>>1928943
it is in my own self-interest as somebody from a poor family

it is in my own self interest as a person who cares enough about my fellow man enough to not want them to starve when they dont have to

>> No.1928982

>>1928943
I remember a quote from Deep Space Nine, paraphrased mind you "But you are being exploited!...Thats the point, I want to be the one exploiting others one day"
The enlightened /biz/ goer realizes there is no hope and only wants to fill his pockets while he can.

>> No.1928985

>>1928976

>sensual hedonism

>implies we will all live in sensual hedonism, but in a VR space

>get out here bro!!!

good argument, you literally agreed with me.

>> No.1928989

>>1928985
>good argument, you literally agreed with me.
Where?

>> No.1928990

>>1928989

the point where he theorized we would be living in a virtual hedonistic state before we reach a real hedonistic state (i.e star trek but real life)

>> No.1928997

>>1928953
>Half of those comparisons are nothing a like, keep your fingers in your ears and keep paying the landlord the right to live in a house.

You always had to "take action" to live in a house throughout history. You used to kill other tribes and conquer territory and houses or build them. Now we exchange pieces of paper (which we had to work for) instead.

In your utopia the only incentive to build the house is when a member of the nomenklatura is afraid to lose his privileged position (he only achieved thanks to his religious followers like yourself) Most likely there aren't enough houses being built because of this and you would have to live in a rotten commieblock apartment. Oh wait, that's what actually happened.

>> No.1929001

>>1928990
There'd be no point in a real hedonist existence with an accurate simulacrum of one possible. If that's your goal, there's nothing stopping you from buying some heroin and ODing tomorrow. Why bother waiting for hedonist-communist utopia when you can spend the rest of your life in chemically-induced bliss this week?

>> No.1929007

>>1928997

>comparing communism to religion

>not being aware socialism is diluted communism therefore you are drawing false equivalences and pulling in things that have nothing to do with what we are talking about.

hahahahahahhaahahha

alright mate

on the tribes point;

"Marx compares the relationship between Germanic tribes and the land that they used too modern day capitalism, noting that Germanic tribes allocated land as to serve its function, hunting grounds, farms and housing all as products of society rather than owned by individuals as necessity of being the most efficient in function. The introduction of capital to these societies enabled the systems of justice and law to subvert the function of these structures to serve individuals whom seeked to benefit the most from these subversion's."

>> No.1929012

>>1929001

thats your goal, not mine.

I still value real life experiences and want to fuck sweet alien blue pussy and conquer the galaxy while smoking weed everyday and blasting through space at faster than light speeds while fucking your mom on my bed covered in communist flags and copies of capital.

>> No.1929022

>>1928866
It isn't that new jobs aren't emerging. It is that under our current trajectory we are not creating valued jobs. The service industry is a joke and basically digging and refilling holes for all the value to serves. The middle man of manufacturing was necessary to allow for trickle down type supply side to function. Without it there isn't much of a way to have valued labor that can receive higher pay and benefits that will power consumption and the rest of the economy. Having a highly educated work force just leads to an education bubble unless it is supplemented by the government to make it easily affordable or else the risk of failure or collapse of the loan system makes it undesirable due to high risk. It isn't just making jobs, it is making jobs that have a reason to even pay wages that are enough to support the purchasing power of the middle class without massive debt for moderate to low education and skill workers.

>> No.1929028

>>1929007
Tell me then. Who gets to allocate resources to individuals in communism? What methodology is used to make the hierarchy a fairer system than capitalism? How do you pick the most just people? I'd really like to know.

>> No.1929031

>>1929012
>I still value real life experiences and want to fuck sweet alien blue pussy and conquer the galaxy while smoking weed everyday and blasting through space at faster than light speeds while fucking your mom on my bed covered in communist flags and copies of capital.

Christ alive

>> No.1929036

>>1929028

Universal income, removal of private property rights with property being allocated due to need and function rather than income.

Freedom to choose still exists, you are just no longer constrained by not having enough cuckbucks to live where you want too.

the hierarchy is removed, collective agreement is what is used to decide who gets what, and what is fair and just.

>> No.1929122

>>1929036
>collective agreement is what is used to decide who gets what, and what is fair and just.
>collective thinks I should be living on the street because i said 1 bad thing about lord and saviour marx
>this is now considered fair and just because the majority thinks so

>> No.1929158

>>1929122

>implying you would be homeless in a communist utopia

>implying ownership of a house is based on ideology

>still clinging to ideological banalities and not accepting the one human species

stay slept.

>> No.1929183

>>1928189
>>There are people in 2017 who unironically think Communism is a good idea

Only sheltered white kids think communism is a good idea.

Anyone who grew in a communist country understands the evil & corruption that communistic ideology can cause.

Only dumb white kids think communism is "great."

Anyone who actually grew up under communism (and is not one of the elites) despises it.

>> No.1929186

>>1929183
>Only sheltered white kids think communism is a good idea.
>Anyone who grew in a communist country understands the evil & corruption that communistic ideology can cause.

Ignorant Americans complain about the 1% controlling everything.

In a communist country, 0.00001% of the population controls your entire life.

>> No.1929192

>>1929183

only sheltered white kids who have no perspective think that a authoritarian, nationalist dictatorship that uses the label 'communism' is equivalent to communism and clearly has never even touched any of marx's works, and is merely ad-libbing talking points shat out by like minded uninformed idiots.

>> No.1929232

>Sister supports Bernie Sanders
>Says taxing the rich is the solution
>"they don't pay their fair share"

Had to explain to her that the rich people are the ones who create jobs with their investments and projects... and they're the only ones who can afford to leave.
As in why stay in America at a 50% tax rate after a million dollar like they did in France when you can renounce you citizenship and go to the fucking Islands or South America. Because in reality they're the only ones who can afford to hop on a jet and go start somewhere new.

It's fucking alarming that we see all this corporations moving over-sea's, merging. Due to tax reasons and now they not only wanna tax the man's work but his fucking income at an absurd rate.

Fucking Democrats

>> No.1929245

>>1929232
they can only afford to do that because they do not pay the dues they owe society.

>> No.1929285
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1929285

>>1929232
>live in sweden
>99% of the population voted for a party to the left of bernie sanders
>the only thing that really pisses of a Swede is when you tell them you wan't to defund school, healthcare, elderlycare etc.
>a good 70% of the population would be considered SJW:s in USA

Both of my parents voted for the socialist party and my teacher just brought me to her office to tell me my assignment was against the schools values. Please send help.

>> No.1929336

>>1929285
underaged b8 b&

>> No.1929360

>>1929245
What "dues" do I owe you? What have you ever done for me? Fuck off

>> No.1929554

>>1929360
It is called social contract Hobbes.

>> No.1929559

>>1929360
>social contract

you dont owe me shit, you owe society when society enables you to become a millionaire, however.

>> No.1929615

>>1929158
>Implying a utopia could actually happen
>Implying saying 'x wouldn't happen in a utopia' is an argument

>> No.1929656

>>1929615
>implying a utopia cant happen

crime still exists in a utopia, people still fuck each other over in a utopia, we just dont have to worry about being homeless or poor.

>> No.1929661

>>1928189

Marx was an economist, a bretty good one, probably knows more than u

>> No.1929915

>>1929661
>Marx was an economist,
no he wasnt

>> No.1929931

>>1929656
>crime still exists in a utopia, people still
actually in my capitalist utopia crime doesnt exist and everybody has 15 domesticated catgirl servants. Why dont u come to my uropia instead?

>> No.1929989

>>1928877
Ok ok. When everything is automated and everybody is fired, who will buy shit? Why would businesses automate when they know it will start an arms race with their competitors that will destroy everyone's customers?

>> No.1930009

>>1928386

It is all luck. There are no doubt hundreds of people in the world who worked as hard and were as smart as bill gates, all of whom did not amount to as much as him.

Luck is the final differentiator. This isn't demeaning of his effort, but the fact is you cannot rely on skill and work alone.

>> No.1930013

>>1929915
yes he was

>> No.1930037

>>1928189
Wealth redistribution always solves societies problems. Every 100 years or so there is usually a revolution. We are well overdue for one now.

>> No.1930069

>>1930013
name one of his contributions to contemporary economics

>> No.1930228

>>1930069

https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/download/pdf/Capital-Volume-I.pdf

https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/download/pdf/Capital-Volume-II.pdf

enjoy

>> No.1930802
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1930802

>>1929245
Rich people pay 90% of the tax collected from individuals. You couldn't squeeze much more out of them even if you wanted to.

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