/biz/ - Business & Finance

[Anonymous No.18181625]

did anyone respond to this FUD?

I am all in RSR right now but ntg this sounds plausible

[Anonymous No.18181754]

>>18181625
I have tons of rsr too, should I sell? Am i fucked?

[Anonymous No.18181809]

>>18181754
i dont know man

has the team responsed to this?

[Anonymous No.18183551]

Bumping for interest

[Anonymous No.18183620]

>>18181625
>>18181754
>>18181809
>>18183551

[Anonymous No.18183670]

>>18181625
jibba jabba and so amazingly.. wrong. READ THE PAPERS

[Anonymous No.18183975]

>>18183620
>>18183670
is the poster inaccurate? not sure what to make of it

[Anonymous No.18184268]

>>18183975
yes, it's all bullshit assumptions here's one of the devs responding to almost all of it from the official telegram group

[Anonymous No.18184272]

not reading that copy paste bullshit

[Anonymous No.18184289]

>>18184268
but I dont see any of the arguments countered here?

[Anonymous No.18184622]

>>18184289
here you go

[Anonymous No.18184818]

>>18184622
but you're saying wrong/false to things that are not wrong/false

[Anonymous No.18184980]

>>18184818
such as?

[Anonymous No.18185038]

>>18184980
just 1 example of that:

you are saying it's false when OP wrote "even if the protocol has accumulated a deep pool of excess RSV through collateral appreciation and tx fees, arbitrage with RSR would still only be possible if RSV trades above $1"

what you copied in response is a collateral to RSV arbitrage (no RSR needed), but OP talked specifically about RSR to RSV arbitrage

[Anonymous No.18185067]

>>18183975
the dev said he is going to get nevin to take a look

[Anonymous No.18185098]

>>18185038
3) Even if the protocol has accumulated a deep pool of excess RSV through collateral appreciation and tx fees, arbitrage with RSR would still ONLY be possible if RSV trades above $1 and ONLY for the quantity of RSV that is being sold above $1. Why would anyone buy RSV above $1? Rational/educated market participants who move large quantities of capital WONT, because if they wanted to buy/use RSV they could instead just mint it for $1 worth of collateral tokens instead of buying from the market for a PREMIUM price. Thus, one would project that the quantity of RSV trading above the peg is minimal, resulting in a very low level of utilization for the potential excess pool of RSV, which means close to NO ARBITRAGE REVENUE FOR RSR HOLDERS.

>Why would anyone buy RSV above $1? Rational/educated market participants who move large quantities of capital WONT

Have you ever seen Tether during Bitcoin volatility? People pay a "PREMIUM" for stablecoins all the time because it beats losing thousands of dollars when BTC starts to dump.

>because if they wanted to buy/use RSV they could instead just mint it for $1 worth of collateral tokens instead of buying from the market for a PREMIUM price
Yes, exactly, instead of buying RSV they could mint it as stated in the whitepapers, and bring the price back down to $1.

>Thus, one would project that the quantity of RSV trading above the peg is minimal, resulting in a very low level of utilization for the potential excess pool of RSV, which means close to NO ARBITRAGE REVENUE FOR RSR HOLDERS.

Except when there's high volatility in the market (again assuming that RSV will only be traded on some exchange), the reality is that RSV is targeting people that will be using an APP and have no control over what they bid for RSV at the time of purchase, they will buy it a higher rates because it beats losing money to a hyperinflated or highly inflated fiat currency but the same applies to exchanges during times of Bitcoin volatility.

[Anonymous No.18185109]

>>18185067
can you make sure that he responds to the picture ITT because there are other versions of the copy-pasta out there with less text where the arguments are not explained like the one here

[Anonymous No.18185115]

>>18185038
You have to continue reading
>>18185098

[Anonymous No.18185158]

>>18185109
I went point by point and responded to each point being made.

[Anonymous No.18185165]

>>18185115
I read everything

did you get what I meant? That your answer was not accurate because you copy-pasted about a different type of arbitrage than the one OP talked about

[Anonymous No.18185240]

>>18185165
He's mixing two different types of arbitrage in his post. If he's talking about RSR arbitrage which burns RSR by buying excess RSV then yes, you can only get excess RSV if there is excess RSV available, but he's talking about RSV selling above $1 and how the only way to arbitrage is if RSV is trading above $1. This is wrong, you can arbitrage RSV below OR above $1.

[Anonymous No.18185268]

>>18184268
>similiar to BNB
ponzi scam confirmed.

[Anonymous No.18185313]

>>18185268

[Anonymous No.18185348]

>>18185240
OP is clearly talking only about RSV to RSV arbitrage. From Reserve medium post:

"Here is a brief overview of how RSR arbitrage trading works: When RSV is trading above $1.00 on exchanges, any excess RSV tokens in this pool can be purchased from the Reserve smart contract by RSR holders exclusively for $1.00 worth of RSR. Once the purchase is made, RSR tokens are burned.

For example, say RSV was trading at $1.02. In this scenario, participants could buy $1.00 worth of RSR on an exchange. If there is excess RSV in the Reserve vault, RSR holders could then use the $1.00 worth of RSR to purchase the stablecoin through Reserve’s smart contract. Once in possession of RSV, these token holders could go back to an exchange and sell the RSV at market price, making a profit of two cents per token."

this is what OP was talking about, but you're talking about RSV to collateral arbitrage.

[Anonymous No.18185349]

>>18185165
why don't you join the official telegram and ask Charlie directly anon?

[Anonymous No.18185371]

all you have to know about RSR is that it's competing against tether / USDC. it's like a new search engine company competing against google. baka

[Anonymous No.18185404]

>>18185240
OP is clearly talking only about RSR to RSV arbitrage. From Reserve medium post:

"Here is a brief overview of how RSR arbitrage trading works: When RSV is trading above $1.00 on exchanges, any excess RSV tokens in this pool can be purchased from the Reserve smart contract by RSR holders exclusively for $1.00 worth of RSR. Once the purchase is made, RSR tokens are burned.

For example, say RSV was trading at $1.02. In this scenario, participants could buy $1.00 worth of RSR on an exchange. If there is excess RSV in the Reserve vault, RSR holders could then use the $1.00 worth of RSR to purchase the stablecoin through Reserve’s smart contract. Once in possession of RSV, these token holders could go back to an exchange and sell the RSV at market price, making a profit of two cents per token."

this is what OP was talking about, but you're talking about RSV to collateral arbitrage which can happen both - when RSV is trading under and above the peg.

[Anonymous No.18185559]

>>18185404
No, OP is ASSUMING that no one will pay more than $1 for RSV, he is then continuing to assume that BECAUSE no one would pay more than $1 for RSV that there wont be enough excess RSV which would then result in zero arbitrage opportunities.

All of these are false assumptions and a complete misunderstanding of the project and it's intentions to launch in countries with inflation. Here's how I addressed this portion of his post:

Except when there's high volatility in the market (again assuming that RSV will only be traded on some exchange), the reality is that RSV is targeting people that will be using an APP and have no control over what they bid for RSV at the time of purchase, they will buy it a higher rates because it beats losing money to a hyperinflated or highly inflated fiat currency but the same applies to exchanges during times of Bitcoin volatility.

[Anonymous No.18185605]

>>18185559
now you're addressing a different part of the text?

[Anonymous No.18185692]

>>18185559
>No, OP is ASSUMING that no one will pay more than $1 for RSV, he is then continuing to assume that BECAUSE no one would pay more than $1 for RSV that there wont be enough excess RSV which would then result in zero arbitrage opportunities.

but that argument wasn't made? OP said that people wont buy above the peg because they have an option to mint it for less $ instead of paying the higher price

i think you are confused

[Anonymous No.18185749]

>>18185692
excess RSV comes from either transaction fees or collateral appreciation, not from RSV trading dynamics

if there are no excess RSV tokens, you can't arbitrage RSV with RSR if RSV is above the peg

this is pretty clear

[Anonymous No.18185794]

>>18185692
>>18185749

What do you mean that argument wasn't made?

>Why would anyone buy RSV above $1? Rational/educated market participants who move large quantities of capital WONT, because if they wanted to buy/use RSV they could instead just mint it for $1 worth of collateral tokens instead of buying from the market for a PREMIUM price.

[Anonymous No.18185860]

>>18185749

"So if RSV ends up with a high velocity of money (it is transacted with a lot) then we would expect the transaction fee to be the bigger source of demand. If the market cap is high but the velocity is low, yield on collateral will be more important. My guess is both will matter but the transaction fee will be more important in the medium term. This is based on our understanding that users in emerging markets will need to spend their RSV holdings frequently, rather than save them for the long term. Not a guarantee of course. Just our current hypothesis."

[Anonymous No.18185906]

>>18185860
this part is talking about how excess RSV gets created, not why RSV would trade above the peg on the markets.

Read part 3) again from OP image

[Anonymous No.18186276]

>>18185906
Yeah, I've read it several times now. The assumption that "arbitrage with RSR would still ONLY be possible if RSV trades above $1 and ONLY for the quantity of RSV that is being sold above $1" is wrong. You don't need RSV to trade above $1 in order to successfully arbitrage using RSR. All you're doing with your RSR is getting access to the excess RSV, it doesn't matter what RSV is trading for after you've acquired it. You can get .01 x 100 times and get to $1 RSV using your RSR over an extended period before you decide what you want to do with that 1 RSV. It's not an "all or nothing" situation.

[Anonymous No.18186431]

>>18186276
>The assumption that "arbitrage with RSR would still ONLY be possible if RSV trades above $1 and ONLY for the quantity of RSV that is being sold above $1" is wrong

again, from the medium article:

>**When** RSV is trading above $1.00 on exchanges, any excess RSV tokens in this pool can be purchased from the Reserve smart contract by RSR holders exclusively for $1.00 worth of RSR. Once the purchase is made, RSR tokens are burned.

imo it says pretty clearly that RSV needs to trade above $1 for RSR users to be able to purchase the excess RSV

[Anonymous No.18186453]

>>18186431
>any excess RSV tokens in this pool

[Anonymous No.18186548]

>>18186453
I don't get it

you said RSV doesn't have you trade above $1 on the markets for RSR holders to buy the excess RSV tokens
but the article says only when RSV trades above $1 on the market, RSR holders can buy the excess tokens

which one is it?

[Anonymous No.18186735]

>>18186548
The benefit of RSR is that when the price of RSV is above $1 you can still buy it at $1 and sell for the difference. This doesn't mean that you will only have access to the excess RSV during a time when RSV is trading above $1. If RSV is trading exactly at $1 you can still buy any excess RSV with your RSR for the benefit of burning more RSR. If RSV drops below $1 you can just arbitrage it the normal way without needing RSR to purchase it.

[Anonymous No.18186756]

>>18186548
>imo it says pretty clearly that RSV needs to trade above $1 for RSR users to be able to purchase the excess RSV


This is wrong. RSV doesn't NEED to trade above $1 for RSR users to be able to purchase the excess RSV.

[Anonymous No.18186758]

>>18186735
but when you do an arbitrage loop when RSV isn't trading above $1 you are not making any profit so it doesn't make sense to use RSR for excess RSR when it isn't trading above $1

[Anonymous No.18186779]

>>18186758
It does make sense, because you can burn your RSR. It wouldn't make sense to pay $1 if it's trading BELOW.

[Anonymous No.18186813]

>>18186779
so even when RSV is not trading above $1, people will still keep using up the excess RSV accumulated in the smart contract?

wouldn't that make it impossible to make profit with RSR to RSV arbitrage when people keep arbitraging for 0 profit? there will not be any excess RSV left for people who want to arbitrage when RSV is finally trading above $1 peg

[Anonymous No.18186828]

gotta admire this reverse shill thread
unfortunately for you, I don't buy shitcoins to begin with
heh

[Anonymous No.18186851]

>>18186813
It's not an all or nothing proposition. If you know you're buying up the excess RSV at $1 then you know that whenever it goes above $1 you will make a profit. If you're an RSR holder you can also make a profit based on the value of RSR going up as you burn more of it.

[Anonymous No.18186867]

>>18186828
nobody cares faggot

[Anonymous No.18187080]

>>18186851
so the next question related to that is, why would RSV trade above $1 in large volumes on the market if these market participants can just instead buy $1 worth of collateral and trade it for 1 RSV.

OP's logic makes complete sense that the revenue you can make from RSR-RSV arbitrage is directly derived from the amount of above the peg RSV that is being bought from the market, but I can't see why people would buy large amounts of RSV above the peg if they don't have to

just think from the game theory sense: why would a lot of people make the financially worse choice given the choice they don't have to?

[Anonymous No.18187117]

>>18186851
so the next question related to that is, why would RSV trade above $1 in large volumes on the market if these market participants can just instead buy $1 worth of collateral and trade it for 1 RSV.

OP's logic makes complete sense that the revenue you can make from RSR-RSV arbitrage is directly derived from the amount of above the peg RSV that is being bought from the market, but I can't see why people would buy large amounts of RSV above the peg if they don't have to

just think from the game theory sense: why would a lot of people make the financially worse choice given the choice they have the alternative to make a financially better choice

[Anonymous No.18187133]

>>18187080
Already answered.

>Why would anyone buy RSV above $1? Rational/educated market participants who move large quantities of capital WONT

Have you ever seen Tether during Bitcoin volatility? People pay a "PREMIUM" for stablecoins all the time because it beats losing thousands of dollars when BTC starts to dump


Are you purposely ignoring my responses here?
>>18185098

[Anonymous No.18187150]

>>18187117
>>18187133

[Anonymous No.18187155]

>>18187133
but it's not comparable since there's no alternative to buy Tether for cheaper than the market price

in RSV's case there's an alternative

[Anonymous No.18187163]

didnt read - not selling

but heres the infamous satsgang pump and dump gorup sirs u must listen sell now and buy CurryToken sirs

[Anonymous No.18187194]

>>18187117
In other words, there wont be time to react and wait for your RSV purchase to get verified while BTC dumps for example. Also, if you're in a 3rd world country and your currency is dipping in value daily you're not worried about paying a small fee or buying at .02 cents more if it means that you can save your purchasing power.

[Anonymous No.18187211]

>>18187155
>>18187194
Read

There wont always be time or enough incentive to methodically purchase newly minted RSV.

[Anonymous No.18187233]

>>18187155
Also, if you're trying to purchase RSV at $1 and it's trading above $1 you need to use RSR to get exclusive rights to purchase it below the value that it's trading for. This would further incentivize people to become RSR holders.

[Anonymous No.18187235]

>>18187194
I get it that it's not a big deal overall, but the logic doesn't work for me when there's an easy way to not pay the premium at market price

the Tether comparison doesn't work, because you can't mint it yourself for whatever collateral

[Anonymous No.18187259]

>>18187235
Yes, the easy way is to become an RSR holder.

[Anonymous No.18187314]

WTF you guys arguing here. just spend 200$ to get 100k RSR and forget it. no big deal.

[Anonymous No.18187344]

>>18187259
do you agree that the only way to generate revenue with RSR-RSV arbitrage is having a lot of market participants make financially bad decisions (buying RSV at premium - above $1 peg when they don't have to) and that can only happen when there's an excess RSV tokens available, meaning that the protocol would've had to previously collect transaction fees + the collateral would've had of appreciated

[Anonymous No.18187413]

>>18187259
do you agree that the only way to generate revenue with RSR-RSV arbitrage is having a lot of market participants make financially bad decisions (buying RSV at premium - above $1 peg when they don't have to) and for that to be possible there would have to be excess RSV tokens available, meaning that the protocol would've had to previously collected transaction fees + the collateral had of appreciated

[Anonymous No.18187425]

>>18187344
Tell me, is it a financially bad decision to buy RSV at 1.02 to avoid a BTC dump of over $1k?

[Anonymous No.18187435]

>>18187314
im not here for pocket change faggot.

[Anonymous No.18187506]

>>18187425
it's not a bad decision overall, but it's worse than buying RSV at $1 for collateral assets just by making ~10 more clicks. It's not complicated to mint RSV at all and it doesn't take a lot of time.

[Anonymous No.18187516]

>>18187425
Your example is pretty specific though, if RSV only goes above the 1$ peg in unexpected and relatively rare circumstances like a massive dump then there won't be much opportunity to arbitrage.
Also, why does the arbitrage only work one way? Unless I'm mistaken, can't you buy RSV for <1$ on the open market (provided it ever goes under the peg) and then redeem it for 1$ with the vault using RSR, hence building up excess RSV in fault for potential redemption later? That would make it so that RSR holders benefit from either up/down movements

[Anonymous No.18187628]

>>18187570
RSV / RSR arbitrage would be profitable if RSR holders were able to sell RSV for 1$ to the vault when RSV is <1$ on the open market. Basically arbitrage that happens when RSV >1$ but in reverse. I don't think such a mechanism is in place, which is a shame

[Anonymous No.18187632]

>>18187516
we have to differentiate between 2 different types of arbitrage mechanisms
1) RSV to collateral arbitrage
2) RSV to RSR arbitrage

1) you can do whenever RSV is off-peg (both under and above)
2) is profitable when RSV trades above the peg and an excess pool of RSV tokens is available

we're only talking about 2) right now
you're talking about 1) in case RSV trades below the peg

[Anonymous No.18187663]

>>18187628
you're right, but I am not sure if that's possible

from what I've read from the medium articles and seen from the RSV burn video, that's not possible. But the other guy here says it is. So I don't know.

[Anonymous No.18187828]

from the whitepaper:

"Suppose the redemption price of Reserve is $1.00. 2) If the price of Reserve on the open
market is $0.98, arbitrageurs will be incentivized to buy it up and redeem it with the
Reserve smart contract for $1.00 worth of collateral tokens. They’ll continue buying on
open markets until there is no more money to be made, which is when the market price
matches the redemption price of $1.00.
The same mechanism works in reverse when demand goes up. If the price of Reserve
on the open market is $1.02, arbitrageurs will be incentivized to purchase newly minted
Reserve tokens for $1.00 worth of either collateral or 2) Reserve Rights tokens (**the latter
only if there is an excess pool of Reserve tokens available**), and immediately sell them on
the open market. They’ll continue selling on open markets until there is no more money
to be made, which is when the market price matches the purchase price of $1.00".

[Anonymous No.18188053]

from whitepaper with some of my comments market with **

If demand goes down for the Reserve token, prices will fall on secondary markets. What happens then? **this is 1) RSV to collateral arbitrage** Suppose the redemption price of Reserve is $1.00. If the price of Reserve on the open market is $0.98, arbitrageurs will be incentivized to buy it up and redeem it with the Reserve smart contract for $1.00 worth of collateral tokens. They’ll continue buying on open markets until there is no more money to be made, which is when the market price matches the redemption price of $1.00.

The same mechanism works in reverse when demand goes up. If the price of Reserve on the open market is $1.02, arbitrageurs will be incentivized to purchase newly minted Reserve tokens for $1.00 worth of either collateral **this is RSV to collateral arbitrage*/

or

Reserve Rights tokens **this is RSV to RSR arbitrage** (the latter only if there is an excess pool of Reserve tokens available), and immediately sell them on the open market. They’ll continue selling on open markets until there is no more money to be made, which is when the market price matches the purchase price of $1.00.

[Anonymous No.18188490]

>>18188053
Yeah so RSR holders don't benefit in any way from arbitrage opportunity when RSV < 1$ since anyone can use the smart contract to redeem RSV for 1$

[Anonymous No.18188609]

>>18188490
that's what I've been saying according to OP's rationale

the conditions in which RSR holders can profit from arbitrage are extremely specific

the conditions are
1) RSV has to trade above $1 (this dynamic created by uneducated market participants who aren't aware that they could instead just mint the RSV for $1 worth of collateral tokens)
2) excess pool of RSV had of been accrued beforehand from transaction fees and collateral appreciation (this is what creates the pool of discounted RSV that RSR holders can buy if RSV trades above $1)

my conclusion like I said is that RSR holders have to rely on irrational market participants who are willing to take a financial loss on their transactions in order to make profit from RSR-RSV arbitrage loop

[Anonymous No.18188697]

>>18188609
I guess the big question is how often would RSV go over the peg in practice. But I understand your point, it seems like RSR has much more utility being sold on the open market to cover for depreciation of collaterized assets vs. being burnt when the specific conditions allowing for arbitrage happen

[Anonymous No.18188815]

>>18188697
I think the more important question how large the buy orders above $1 peg would be. That's directly what affects how much excess RSV can be used for arbitrage by RSR holders

excess RSV that just sits in a smart contract, but can't be used because RSV isn't trading above $1 peg in large enough volumes is just a waste of potential tx fees and collateral apprecation

[Anonymous No.18188856]

>>18188609
During market volatility not everyone is going to mint new RSV when doing so may cost them thousands of dollars. The same applies app users around the world who are trying to get away from volatile fiat currencies or when sending/receiving remittances via the app.

Your base assumption is that only "uneducated" or "irrational" market participants would pay more than $1 for RSV but this is just your opinion and based on the assumption that you know when there will be volatility and always act "rationally" and have more than enough time to mint fresh RSV via a smart contract.

It's not "uneducated" or "irrational" to take a minimal loss of .01 or .02 cents if it saves you thousands of dollars. It's actually more irrational and more uneducated to think you can predict the market and be at the ready to mint RSV at the exact right time.

[Anonymous No.18188862]

>>18188815
Yes good point

[Anonymous No.18188898]

>>18188856
>mint new RSV when doing so may cost them thousands of dollars

Why would it cost thousands of dollars?

[Anonymous No.18188923]

>>18188898
Time is a factor. It can cost you thousands, if not tens of thousands if you decide to exit your position through minting RSV rather than market buying at a few cents more.

[Anonymous No.18188948]

>>18188856
have you ever tried to mint RSV?

the whole process takes less than 3 minutes

[Anonymous No.18188968]

>>18188923
See >>18188948

[Anonymous No.18188988]

>>18188948
Have you tried to mint RSV during a volatile market event while possibly thousands of others are trying to mint it at the same time? Pretty sure it would take more than 3 minutes and you would lose thousands of dollars in order to save a few pennies on the dollar.

[Anonymous No.18189048]

>>18188988
this scenario is possible, but I am glad we finally ended up in the key part of the whole argument from OP

whether holding RSR to generate revenue through arbitrage is worth it or not boils down to a *current unknown* whether market participants are willing to buy RSV above the $1 peg or not, even if they don't actually have to

[Anonymous No.18189073]

>>18189048
Once again, through the APP they wont have a choice as to the market price of RSV. So the short answer is yes, there will be plenty of people buying RSV above $1.

[Anonymous No.18189182]

>>18189073
this is a satisfactory answer to me

which translates to RSR holders profit at the expense of poor Venezuelans who are buying RSV at a premium price because they're not aware of the possibility to mint it

isn't it a red flag that none of the admins or decs were able to get the key issue though?
all they did was forward some unrelated material and reply to irrelevant parts of the text

[Anonymous No.18189255]

>>18189182
The app is offering a service to people that don't otherwise understand crypto or care to deal with crypto directly.

No one is hiding the fact that you can mint RSV but not everyone wants to deal with that so they will pay .01 on the dollar for the benefit of not having to worry about it.

The same thing can be said of Paypal "profiting" from fees. This is a voluntary situation, no one is being coerced to participate. A solution to inflation is offered and there is a profit motive. There's nothing immoral about it. It's a convenience, and it offers competition to the current monopolies that are actually taking advantage of people trying to send remittances and overcharging family members to do so.

[Anonymous No.18189355]

>>18189182
I directly responded to this from the start as you can see here:

>>18185098

So if anyone was trying to obfuscate anything it was you.

[Anonymous No.18189747]

>>18184268
I was referring to the admin in this image of yours

>>18189355
He didn't address any of the key points made, but just explained the burn mechanism in his own words (was already explained in OP's image) and how excess RSV is generated (also already explained in OP's image). None of that was related to the arguments made. Also "they seem to be missing the tx fee as source" was incorrect as it was mentioned in the text. So essentially nothing meaningful was answered after declaring "lets settle it".

[Anonymous No.18189796]

Lmao fudders btfo