Why people say that in times like this Fed printing money and government "bailouts" are bad?

[Anonymous No.18027037]

People keep talking how companies should we "antifragile" and prepare for such scenarios and then take heat if not prepared.

So right now Fed should do nothing and let system "collapse" to teach "a lesson in excess" and follow next 30 years with Great Depression 2.0 for what? Principles?

Am I not understanding something here, but if Apple decided to become "antifragile" and start building "virus ready" isolation offices, "Yellowstone eruption" ready bunkers and "Asteroid ready" space stations to ensure the company can survive in "bad times" instead of focusing on R&D and making new ipads...their stock would drop like a rock.

Doesn't it make more sense let government and Fed handle the crisis when they come?

If during 2008 no banks would have been bailed out and a worse recession and unemployment would have followed would people be happy, because despite having to eat only potatoes the government "did the right thing" and "let the bad banks die"?

What is actually wrong with Fed printing trillions and injecting in system?

Why is it a "systemic risks"?

Fed is obviously not stupid and will not inject so much to cause hyperinflation, why the hell would they?

And if this is a bad idea then what is the alternative better idea?

Isn't gov and Fed doing all of this to prevent a huge bear market and soften the blow?

So aren't these action good?

I'd like a logical explanation devoid of dogma and ideology and stuff like "money printing bad". Logically, if it helps improve the situation - why not use it? Why can't we use it forever? Inflation is a thing and will be a thing... where is the problem with that? Why would we let things proceed without intervention and totally stomp out any productivity and growth for next decades? For what?

[Anonymous No.18027117]

>>18027037

>Am I not understanding something here, but if Apple decided to become "antifragile" and start building "virus ready" isolation offices, "Yellowstone eruption" ready bunkers and "Asteroid ready" space stations to ensure the company can survive in "bad times" instead of focusing on R&D and making new ipads...their stock would drop like a rock.

No one is saying that retard. Companies should have to abide by the same rules individuals follow, three to six months of expenses in case something hits the fan, a year ideally. If you don't have that, you're likely massively overextended to begin with and your company has fake growth anyway.

[Anonymous No.18027167]

>>18027117
> No one is saying that retard. Companies should have to abide by the same rules individuals follow, three to six months of expenses in case something hits the fan, a year ideally. If you don't have that, you're likely massively overextended to begin with and your company has fake growth anyway.

Why?

Isn't it a false comparison? If individual goes broke, one persons life is affected.

If large company goes broke tens of thousands of lives are affected.

Besides, if companies did what you suggest wouldn't their hare price drop since competitors wouldn't be doing it and would thus grow faster with their more aggressive strategy?

[Anonymous No.18027239]

>>18027037
But, do you agree that more money and slow velocity would create the ultimate stagflation overnight?

[Anonymous No.18027298]

>>18027167
>If large company goes broke tens of thousands of lives are affected.
even more reason to build a cushion, they have a responsibility to those people

[Anonymous No.18027379]

>>18027167

>Why?

Because it encourages terrible corporate behavior and causes even larger crashes like the one we are having now.

Example:

CEO: Should we spend our money on actually valuable things that encourage long-term growth like investing in a good workforce, plants, factories, rainy day fund, etc...or...make greedy wall street parasite investors happy by being as lean as possible, using all of our money to make the stock price go up, and if it goes tits up, well, the government will save us and our workers will subsidize us (by having to pay higher taxes to cover our bailouts...even as we slash their wages. Mhmm, I'll choose the latter because my executive friends and I are going to get a golden parachute no matter what happens along with my best investor friends who I'll warn of a dump way ahead of time.


>Besides, if companies did what you suggest wouldn't their hare price drop since competitors wouldn't be doing it and would thus grow faster with their more aggressive strategy?

Yes but those companies, in an ideal free market situation, would get totally fucked and destroyed in the event of a recession, meaning it balances out since the other company could just come in and buy out their assets at discount prices, since they have the assets to weather the storm.

Bailing out companies just encourages shitty behavior and punishes real business owners who are actually responsible, and creates massive distortions in stock values, where people think it is OKAY to invest in companies with a P/E ratio of like 20:1 or even 50:1 longterm.

[Anonymous No.18027399]

Bailouts keeping shitty companies and/or zombie companies afloat are not "dealing with the problem" - they're simply kicking the can down the road to create an even bigger collapse in the future.
It's like a forest fire - if you always try to prevent the smaller ones, you'll end with too much over undergrowth and set the stage for a gigantic fire in the future.
It might be painful in the short run, but it's better in the long run. Because once money pumping stops working, you have an entire global meltdown of everything.

[Anonymous No.18027403]

>>18027298
Should the cushion be built with the resources outside the company and people outside the company be responsible for the faith of the employees?

[Anonymous No.18027429]

>omg the fed has to print money to stop the economy collapsing
>economy collapses anyway

[Anonymous No.18027452]

BRRRR

[Anonymous No.18027479]

>>18027298
Yes, but shareholder do not incentivise that. Shareholders wan companies that grow fast and number go up not build "cushions". So market itself is not incentivising these "safety pillows"

[Anonymous No.18027493]

This is the most retarded argument I've ever seen.

I'm not even kidding. People like you should not even be allowed to vote.

Americans have become so retarded it's actually almost insane.

[Anonymous No.18027530]

>>18027239
> But, do you agree that more money and slow velocity would create the ultimate stagflation overnight?

I don't know, I'm an economics noob. Can you explain what you mean by "slow velocity"? You mean stocks not being traded?

If Fed injects money into stocks, but people just continue selling their stocks then stock market value goes down and dollar value still goes up, so that doesn't cause stagflation.

Can you explain in detail?

[Anonymous No.18027535]

>>18027493
Nice argument. Stay poor retard

[Anonymous No.18027559]

>>18027037
Lol.

The systems a joke bro thats why we joke about it.

A bunch of narcissitic sociopath coke heads run everything and when their comeuppance finally arrives its fucking crocidile tears and pleas to keep their exteavigent luxurious lifestyles intact.

Like Disney google youtube and Facebook are some irreplaceable good instead of the fucking incarnations of evil.

When my life goes to shit they say, “well let them eat cake”.

When we have child care problems its “figure it out” and “you do what you have to do”

When we need to go to the doctor we just dont go and hope we dont die.

But a little pain comes their way and they need money for their yatchs and private jets. Heaven forbid they have to live like us. LMAO.

They have stolen entire generations retirments twice in a decade! Do have any comprehension of how fucking irredeamable these assholes are? How fucked the system they perpetuate is?

Stop being such a fucking boot licker!

If our masta dies how we feed and cloth weselves?!?!? Jesus Christ dude

[Anonymous No.18027572]

>>18027493
Institute IQ test to vote.

[Anonymous No.18027602]

>>18027572
The problem is not that they are stupid. Its that they are amoral psycopaths.

[Anonymous No.18027607]

>>18027379
> Because it encourages terrible corporate behavior and causes even larger crashes like the one we are having now.

Yes, but isn't that better than those companies dying off completely, sending US spiralling into larger recession / depression and reducing US influence on global stage?

And those bailouts are more like a lottery anyway, you can't be sure your large corp will get bailed out. It might, it might not.

And even with those bailouts isn't aggressive economic growth preferable to more conservative growth? US is not alone and has to maintain power position, so China does not overtake. And they are close.

So it makes sense for Fed to do ANYTHING to keep the music playing, to prevent depression, to pump the economy, to create growth of economy and productivity, leading to further advancements in tech, improving productivity even further and so on.

People say "this cannot go on forever", but... why not? What magically prevents it from "going on forever"?

[Anonymous No.18027663]

>>18027379
> CEO: Should we spend our money on actually valuable things that encourage long-term growth like investing in a good workforce, plants, factories, rainy day fund, etc...or...make greedy wall street parasite investors happy by being as lean as possible, using all of our money to make the stock price go up, and if it goes tits up, well, the government will save us and our workers will subsidize us (by having to pay higher taxes to cover our bailouts...even as we slash their wages. Mhmm, I'll choose the latter because my executive friends and I are going to get a golden parachute no matter what happens along with my best investor friends who I'll warn of a dump way ahead of time.

What if you don't look at it from your point of view but from governments point of view? Isn't an aggressively growing economy and stock market preferable thus pulling in more funds from all over the world into US stocks?

Yes, it will go tits up every 10-12 years, but with Fed pumping and bailouts the recession will be softer and there won't be a "hard restart" which could send US back on global stage.

If we look purely from neutral stand point - goal of US gov is to maintain US power position in the world economy. If sacrifices need to be made that is preferable to being more "conservative" .

[Anonymous No.18027692]

>>18027399
> Bailouts keeping shitty companies and/or zombie companies afloat are not "dealing with the problem" - they're simply kicking the can down the road to create an even bigger collapse in the future.

This what I don't understand - what is actually preventing US gov to keep "kicking can down the road" literally forever?

They can keep printing money right?

So what is magic moment where can cannot be kicked down any longer?

[Anonymous No.18027718]

>>18027493
I'm not American, can you explain why am I retarded? I'm just learning. Thanks.

[Anonymous No.18027745]

>>18027559
Can you explain how I am wrong and address each of my points in logical manner without resorting to platitudes, exaggeration and personal attacks? Thx I really want to know WHY I am wrong. I might be wrong, I just want to know WHYYYY

[Anonymous No.18027825]

>>18027530
Velocity in general is regarded to how people spend their money/assets. In time of war, uncertainty and time like today, people might spend initially some cash for provision, but after a while they will stop and start putting money "under the mattress". That thing with the fact that more money are injected into circulation by the feds by simply printing more, historically leads to hyper inflation, literally overnight, its 2% today, 4% tomorrow and 16% the next day... by the end of the week the $1 menu at McDonald's is of value of $100 bucks today. And all the savings people think they have made are useless, and when they try to go and buy some stuff its too late, economy is about to collapse, factories are closing, people are losing their jobs etc. So stagnation is happening in general. This is the stag-flation I am talking about.

It happened around WW1 in Germany, the Great Depression in US was just stagnation, there wasnt any inflation, the dollar remained the same. So in general, we haven't seen something like that in the west. And now due to the China Virus, stagnation is happening, due to feds around the world printing more cash without backup we see an incoming inflation. So the only logical outcome is mass stagflation.

This is my take on this, as far as my understanding of economy and history goes, we are on the wrong path today, sadly.

[Anonymous No.18027853]

>>18027607

>Yes, but isn't that better than those companies dying off completely, sending US spiralling into larger recession / depression and reducing US influence on global stage?

No, because like I said, you are literally just causing the next depression to be even WORSE. Can you imagine something even worse than now? How about instead of a bottom at -60% we get a bottom five, ten years later at -80%? And if we kick that can down the road, what, a -99%? Hyperinflation? Civil war? The complete collapse of society? There is always a reckoning for bad behavior and even though there would be pain in the short-term, long-term we would be okay with real growth.

>And those bailouts are more like a lottery anyway, you can't be sure your large corp will get bailed out. It might, it might not.

Executives paint a rosy picture to people that they will and convince themselves mentally that they will. So that doesn't matter-in order for them to be even somewhat responsible, you need to make it 100% clear that no bailouts will happen, sans for REGULATED defense contractors, etc, who are actually essential and will be forced to save up money anyway due to the regulations.

>And even with those bailouts isn't aggressive economic growth preferable to more conservative growth?

No. It is better to have sustainable, conservative growth backing your global superpower than fake growth, because eventually that aggressive growth will crater, and you really can't control when it will, leaving your country more vulnerable than before.

>US is not alone and has to maintain power position, so China does not overtake. And they are close.

And if you kick this can down the road...they will absolutely rape us for the rest of the century, possibly into the 22nd. We need to start the foundation for real growth now...and if China decides to continue with its crackpot growth strategy (which they are doing now, printing out trillions upon trillions of local government debt...)

[SAGE No.18027886]

>>18027607
Its not. In fact, what you are suggesing makes crashes like this inevitable, just way bigger and way more painful.

And what do you mean you can't be sure? Look at the massive bailouts that went on, everyone had their hands out. The US is buying corporate bonds like crazy.

And aggressive economic growth is obviously preferable, but this isn't real growth. If it was, why not just have the Fed/US Gov just contantly buying bonds, and even stocks. It will make the market soar like crazy. But we don't do that when times are good, because of the extremely negative consequences.

There is no magic involved here. Eventually debt becomes so massive it is non-serviceable, the governments balance sheet is overloaded with toxic, money losing assets, and then money printing gets out of control to service the debt, At which point, inflation flies wildly out of control and the USA looks like zimbabwe.

[SAGE No.18027911]

>>18027692
Inflation. When you print money, inflation will devalue it. Each dollar has less purchasing power. If what you are suggesting is possible then every banana republic could just print billions and billions of their own dollars and end up as rich as switzerland.

[Anonymous No.18027949]

>>18027853

Cont. and national government debt. That combined with the fact China is an authoritarian hellhole means that when the reckoning comes from them (and it will), you're going to see a hard repeat of the Warring States period eventually, unless they get their shit under control.


>What if you don't look at it from your point of view but from governments point of view? Isn't an aggressively growing economy and stock market preferable thus pulling in more funds from all over the world into US stocks?

>Yes, it will go tits up every 10-12 years, but with Fed pumping and bailouts the recession will be softer and there won't be a "hard restart" which could send US back on global stage.

Like I said...you can't do fake growth forever. Eventually, there will be a reckoning. You can either take a punch and go down for a few years...or delay it. Then get stabbed or shot. It's just how systems work. Without real, fundamental growth, nations collapse, and the US is no exception. If the government held a long-term view, it can cope far better with getting rekt for a year or few years than pushing this down the road and then suffering for decades or even centuries (as China, Rome, and every other Empire before has discovered).

[Anonymous No.18028019]

>>18027037
Economics is a pseudoscience

[Anonymous No.18028037]

>>18027911
Well, right now USD is very powerful, so by printing money now you aren't reducing USD value that much.

Besides, we always had inflation, everyone knows that. Inflation encourages spending. What's so bad with inflation? Economy keeps growing. Hyperinflation? Well, Fed would obviously not print so much USD to cause that.

[Anonymous No.18028081]

>>18027825
>Velocity in general is regarded to how people spend their money/assets. In time of war, uncertainty and time like today, people might spend initially some cash for provision, but after a while they will stop and start putting money "under the mattress". That thing with the fact that more money are injected into circulation by the feds by simply printing more, historically leads to hyper inflation

Right now USD is very strong even with money printing, so why do you think Fed would be so retarded to initialise printers and never stop them? Obviously when they see USD fall in value too much they would stop the printing process.

[Anonymous No.18028157]

>>18028037

>Well, right now USD is very powerful, so by printing money now you aren't reducing USD value that much.

For now. That isn't sustainable forever. Germany probably thought the same thing...until it suddenly stopped working.

>Besides, we always had inflation, everyone knows that. Inflation encourages spending. What's so bad with inflation?

Moderate inflation is good, hyperinflation is bad.

>Well, Fed would obviously not print so much USD to cause that.

That's what Germany and every other country with hyperinflation thought...except the problem is, they, and we, are funding this printing through debt, and eventually debt has to be repaid...

[Anonymous No.18028185]

>>18028157

>and eventually debt has to be repaid.

And how are they going to repay this debt? By going into more debt to print more money, causing more debt and more inflation, until everything is fucked.

[Anonymous No.18028198]

>>18027886
> Eventually debt becomes so massive it is non-serviceable, the governments balance sheet is overloaded with toxic, money losing assets, and then money printing gets out of control to service the debt, At which point, inflation flies wildly out of control and the USA looks like zimbabwe.

Sorry, but why is it "not serviceable"? What exactly makes this debt "not serviceable"?

> the governments balance sheet is overloaded with toxic, money losing assets

So government ends up holding shitty bonds?
What happens next?

> money printing gets out of control to service the debt, At which point, inflation flies wildly out of control and the USA looks like zimbabwe.

But if money gets printed only to cover the debt, why hyperinflation?

I just don't get it.

If all of this is so bad, what is a better alternative and why isn't it being implemented?

[SAGE No.18028263]

>>18028037
Yes, but eventually it will. How do you believe inflation encourages spending exactly? Other than people have no choice but to pay double or triple for groceries?

And where is this obvious stopping point? Where exactly does hyper inflation take over?

If you are trolling, you got me 100%. I am totally convinced you are slow.

[Anonymous No.18028270]

>>18027853
>Executives paint a rosy picture to people that they will and convince themselves mentally that they will. So that doesn't matter-in order for them to be even somewhat responsible, you need to make it 100% clear that no bailouts will happen, sans for REGULATED defense contractors, etc, who are actually essential and will be forced to save up money anyway due to the regulations.

But if a cataclysm like Corona or Yellowstone occurs, it is not execs or company fault, right? So isn't bailout helpful here?

> No. It is better to have sustainable, conservative growth backing your global superpower than fake growth, because eventually that aggressive growth will crater, and you really can't control when it will, leaving your country more vulnerable than before.

I don't understand why this "fake growth" can't go on forever? Aren't all countries doing it? Isn't it done to ensure US is #1 economy even if fake? It's not like China numbers are real, so is US left with any choice if it wants to maintain power position?

[Anonymous No.18028274]

>>18027745
Japanification.

[Anonymous No.18028335]

>>18027167
Because the only ones who profit from this are the fucking CEOS or people at the top, literallt making millions while letting OTHER people pay for their mistakes. There’s NO reason they should be judged differently. Why no bailout for small businesses then?

[Anonymous No.18028341]

>>18027853
> And if you kick this can down the road...they will absolutely rape us for the rest of the century, possibly into the 22nd. We need to start the foundation for real growth now...and if China decides to continue with its crackpot growth strategy (which they are doing now, printing out trillions upon trillions of local government debt...)

Again ,if China also has crackpot strategy then aren't US and China pretty much on even ground?

Maybe it's a game between superpowers to see who can last longer in this musical game of chairs?

And if all of what you are saying is true - why is US still choosing this harmful strategy?

[Anonymous No.18028370]

>>18028198


>Sorry, but why is it "not serviceable"? What exactly makes this debt "not serviceable"?

Not having enough money to pay the interest payments on the debt...meaning you default on the debt.

>So government ends up holding shitty bonds? What happens next?

It loses lots of money on its investments, making the problem above much, much worse.

>But if money gets printed only to cover the debt, why hyperinflation?

See my answer in the posts above.

>If all of this is so bad, what is a better alternative and why isn't it being implemented?

Let it crash and try to feed real people as best we can, than build up sustainable infrastructure and real growth. Bail out the people, not the corporations, and try and ride it out for a few years.

>Why isn't it being implemented?

Rich people would get absolutely shitwrecked and lose their positions of power before they can flee the country with non-monetary assets, and rich people currently control the economy.

>What about a non-apocalyptic alternative?

FTL drive is invented along with fusion reactors and we have infinite resources, space, and energy.

[Anonymous No.18028371]

Go back to r/investing
https://www.reddit.com/r/investing/comments/fnlchp/why_people_say_that_in_times_like_this_fed/

[Anonymous No.18028428]

>>18028157
> For now. That isn't sustainable forever. Germany probably thought the same thing...until it suddenly stopped working.


What reasons are there for it to stop working? If USD is "bad" and it is this strong, isn't EUR and other currencies in even deeper shit?

And if everyone is in this shit together then will US no win by manipulating and pumping this smarter than others?

>>18028185
US repaying debt to whom? Other countries? It's not like anyone will "collect" it from US. And yes, let's say they print more money, let's say it causes inflation (it has been going on forever anyway)...how does this crash everything? You just have weaker dollar and more expensive stocks...show goes on. Why not?

[Anonymous No.18028462]

>>18028263
> How do you believe inflation encourages spending exactly?

If my money will be worth less tomorrow I need to spend it fast!

> And where is this obvious stopping point? Where exactly does hyper inflation take over?

I understand that 2% annual inflation is the norm, no?

> If you are trolling, you got me 100%. I am totally convinced you are slow.

Tell me how my arguments are wrong

[SAGE No.18028475]

>>18028198
It is too big. The government cannot raise enough money in taxes to pay its current expenses and also pay off its debt. Its the same as you owing more than you make on credit cards and car loans.

If the government holds shitty bonds, then it never makes money off those bonds. So they buy assets that end up losing them money instead of providing a return.

Hyper inflation happens because the debt is so large. Even if they only print enough to cover the debt, the purchasing power of the money already in circulation goes down, due to the increase in money supply.

More dollars = each dollar less valuable.

[Anonymous No.18028493]

>>18027037
>I'd like a logical explanation devoid of dogma and ideology
>"If no bailout then only potato :DDD"
Things are not only black and white and also you're a faggot

[Anonymous No.18028495]

>>18028335
But is that really true or emotional speak?

So you have company with 10k employees. Obviously letting it go bankrupt will impact economy negatively with all those employees being out of work.

[Anonymous No.18028529]

>>18028335
> Why no bailout for small businesses then?

Because it is not realistic to calculate bailouts for ton of small businesses doing audit on each. Lack of manpower, no efficient. It is way more logical and efficient from gov standpoint to bail out one large company than 10000 small ones.

[Anonymous No.18028546]

>>18028341

>Again ,if China also has crackpot strategy then aren't US and China pretty much on even ground? Maybe it's a game between superpowers to see who can last longer in this musical game of chairs?

At last, now you see.

>And if all of what you are saying is true - why is US still choosing this harmful strategy?

See >>18028370, except one political party wants to save their rich friends in the short term (Republicans) while one wants to save their rich friends in the long term by giving enough handouts to not cause the collapse of global capitalism (Democrats). Either way they will choose this bad policy so long as they continue giving a shit about their rich friends. We need to realize, as FDR put it, that some rich people need to be thrown to the wolves if the current system is to survive...or to let the system burn.

[Anonymous No.18028558]

>>18028370
> Not having enough money to pay the interest payments on the debt...meaning you default on the debt.

Two things:
1) Can't US just print even more money then?
2) Can't US just default on debts then?

[Anonymous No.18028573]

>>18028371
let me ask question here as well

[Anonymous No.18028587]

>>18028371
Lmao gottteeeeemm

[Anonymous No.18028590]

>>18028546
based kreia anon

[Anonymous No.18028600]

>>18028428

>What reasons are there for it to stop working? If USD is "bad" and it is this strong, isn't EUR and other currencies in even deeper shit?

If other countries collapse less than we do because they aren't putting this shit off like we are and then rebuild with real growth, their currencies will naturally replace the USD over time as they are based on actual fundamentals instead of fake

[SAGE No.18028605]

>>18028462
LOL, yes, just spend all my money during a depression, sure, I won't be able to afford food in a week. LOL. Think about what you are saying?

GG, tho, you got me. I am convinced you are retarded. LOL.

[SAGE No.18028634]

>>18028495
Yes its really true.

[Anonymous No.18028647]

>>18027037
>follow next 30 years with Great Depression 2.0 for what? Principles?
The problem with your reasoning is you think the fed can prevent a Great Depression 2.0 by printing money. It can't, the only thing it can do is save big businesses that took bad decissions while punishing the average joe that did nothing wrong (other than trust the US government).

[Anonymous No.18028697]

>>18028600

Whoops, entered this before I intended to, to continue, instead of bullshit fake economics.

>And if everyone is in this shit together then will US no win by manipulating and pumping this smarter than others?

Not really because see the post I linked to, that only works unless literally every government on the planet agrees to do some kind of eventual debt reset or never ever tries to collect...which is not going to happen.

>
>>18028185 (You)
US repaying debt to whom? Other countries? It's not like anyone will "collect" it from US. And yes, let's say they print more money, let's say it causes inflation (it has been going on forever anyway)...how does this crash everything? You just have weaker dollar and more expensive stocks...show goes on. Why not?

Most US debt is held by US citizens such as rich people, banks, and retirement funds...if you don't repay the debt, say bye bye to our banks, rich people, and retirement funds, and likely an actual civil war. That and foreign countries will stop lending us money...and the only way to get them to land money is to invade them...and we can't invade the entire planet.

[Anonymous No.18028747]

>>18027479
>So market itself is not incentivising these "safety pillows"

Yes, because the government bails out companies. The market would incentivize safety pillows if it was truly a free market.

[Anonymous No.18028791]

>>18027037
>Am I not understanding something here, but if Apple decided to become "antifragile" and start building "virus ready" isolation offices, "Yellowstone eruption" ready bunkers and "Asteroid ready" space stations to ensure the company can survive in "bad times" instead of focusing on R&D and making new ipads...their stock would drop like a rock.
The people talk about not going into massive debth and having enough liquid assets to survive a bad jear with this
Not the bullshit you strawmanned

[Anonymous No.18028804]

>>18027037
>If during 2008 no banks would have been bailed out and a worse recession and unemployment would have followed would people be happy
After fire you get new life

[Anonymous No.18028834]

now this is reddit spacing

[Anonymous No.18028924]

Also save the companies, save the workplaces
LYNCH the CEO and the supervisory board
These are the cunts that profit the most and these are the ones at vault
Not the whole company

[Anonymous No.18029076]

You think we have “capitalism”.
We dont.

We have state sponsored corporations. Just like communism. And just like communsim they are becoming over bearing and will bankrupt the state.

You see business are too large and complex to be privatly funded, Too subject to external shocks leading to bankruptcy and insolvancy, too unwilling to fund coslty but promissing R and D. The private market does not incentivise many worthwile risks and endevours. While many things like water and sewer, medical, education, healthcare, and retirement funds should never be left to the free market as its impulse would be extraction.

Point is We have 2 variations on facism.

1. The corporations try to extract wealth from the consumer rather than the state. When this fails they have the state steal the consumers wealth and give it to the corporations. (Bailouts).

2. The “market” which necessitates and amplifies quarterly growth. While this induces “innovation” it also creates radical incetivisation for non competative practices. (Like 10 year auto loans on 120,000 trucks for people earning 15k a year, or psuedo monopolization)

This means as the state sponored monoplies become entrenched and more subjected to state whim they become less able to meet their fiscal requirments and will eventually bankrupt everyone. At least we have awesome comcast cable internet for 150 dollars a month!!! And shitty overpriced cars designed to break and be serviced exclusivly by the dealers for even more money!!!!!!! LMAO

[Anonymous No.18029230]

>>18027037
Moral hazard is a real thing. But how are companies supposed to prepare for a biological attack on the US from China? It violates all international treaties, was completely unprovoked, and had no warning or indication that the attack was in planning.
Idiots who are complaining about the Fed don't understand that this is economic warfare not business as usual. China is providing a huge amount of support to their companies. If the US doesn't, China will send in the PLA after the US military industrial complex is wiped out.

[Anonymous No.18029291]

>>18027559
You're seeing things clearly. Good for you.

[Anonymous No.18029345]

>>18027745
>>18027718
Obvious b8 and troll, sage

[Anonymous No.18029389]

>>18029291
Thats why im such a looser. LMAO

[Anonymous No.18029401]

>>18028371
>Exact same OP word for word
Jesus Christ, this website never fails to disappoint.

[Anonymous No.18029430]

>>18027037
Right, I think one of the big issues is that in America, companies are enticed to spend beyond their means and go balls-to-the-wall for profit. The American economy is so hyper-competitive that if you're a small business and you attempt to save a little for a rainy day, you will be put out of business by someone undercutting you, spending like a madman and not saving shit.

So basically businesses have been incentivized to throw caution to the wind, and now we're all paying the price. It's like our country is Capitalist until it's not, and when it's not, the PEOPLE don't reap the benefits of the system collapsing - only the corporations do (because we "need" to bail them out, to prevent unemployment, recession, etc.). To more and more Americans, this kind of "capitalism" or system or whatever you want to call it, makes less and less sense. At least that's how I see it.

[Anonymous No.18029482]

>>18029401
>>18028371
I kind of just assumed this was a rebbit post, copy & pasted here for /biz/'s take. Of course it was. I wonder what kind of retarded "thanks for the rebbit gold, kind stranger!" sycophant takes they've got over in their thread.

[Anonymous No.18029733]

>>18028647
Strong Inflation caused over time by injecting helicoptermoney

[Anonymous No.18029832]

>>18027037
OP, you're slightly missing the point, because it seems like you don't really udnerstand the meaning of antifragility. Have you read Taleb's book? The idea is, complex systems are antifragile, and individual components are not. Companies are not antifragile, but economies (and capitalism) are.

Many companies are going, or will go, bust. This is simply a result of them being fragile to black swan shocks. However, new companies will fill the niches of the old, and theyw ill be stronger and prepared for these kinds of events.

The Fed is making the mistake of letting these fragile companies continue to exist, thus creating even more fragility in our system.

[Anonymous No.18029875]

>>18029430
Basically this. The de facto method of operation for most businesses in the US is to stretch everything as thin as possible and take on as much leverage as possible. This is what makes them as expanded and as competitive as possible but more importantly yields the highest return for shareholders. This is why these companies spend all their cash on stock buybacks and maintain massive liabilities. The problem with this is it's a retarded way to conduct business because the slightest hiccup will send everything tumbling (assuming the government doesn't bail you out, which it probably will because you're likely a national asset like Boeing or Ford)

[Anonymous No.18029918]

>>18028697
>Not really because see the post I linked to, that only works unless literally every government on the planet agrees to do some kind of eventual debt reset or never ever tries to collect...which is not going to happen.

Why you think global debt reset is not a possibility?

[Anonymous No.18029934]

>>18027037
stocks a scams worse than the worse shitcoin, holding a stock doesn't give you any passive income, it's fucking worthless chuck e cheese token and should be let to collapse like it deserves
Economy /= stocks, fuck stocks

[Anonymous No.18030075]

>>18027037
>lowers value of us currency
>allows china to manipulate our money even more
>buying power of lower/middle class drops
>elderly retirement quality falls
Basically puts a bandaid on a dirty wound. might stop the bleeding but it aint fixed shit

[Anonymous No.18030173]

>>18028081
that's not how it works, once the crisis blows over and people start spending all the money including the freshly printed ones inflation will get out of control, the fed stopping printers won't help it will be too late, the fed might have already caused hyperinflation with the recent printing we just don't know it yet because it has a delayed reaction. Like one anon says one day you will wake up and your entire saving/checking account will be worthless regardless of how many 0s there is

[Anonymous No.18030232]

>>18028037
>Inflation encourages spending.
no it siphons money from the poor to the rich
>encourages spending
and that's why every normie has no savings right now and relies on government to bail them out
stop sucking jewish dicks

[Anonymous No.18030398]

>>18030232
Well those lazy 80 year olds need to get back to working! Walmart aint greeting itself lazy ocegenarians!

[Anonymous No.18031014]

>>18030232
buying stocks is also spending, is it not?

[Anonymous No.18031037]

>>18030075
China's a creditor.

[Anonymous No.18031123]

>>18027037
The absolute state of American "capitalism"

[Anonymous No.18031189]

>>18028335
>Because the only ones who profit from this are the fucking CEOS or people at the top
These are loans, not grants. The money has to be repaid. The purpose is to help with a burgeoning liquidity crisis.

[Anonymous No.18031334]

>>18027037
I'll give you retards the lowdown on what's going on from a guy in graduate economics (not an economist).

Idiots keep saying money printer go brr and complaining about inflations. This is NOT what the FED is doing right now. They're currently buying BONDS for CASH to keep the corporate bond market and credit markets liquid, it's a zero sum game no new money is entering markets.

Here's what is extremely fucking dangerous about this unlimited QE positions they have taken, however. They are assuming that since this virus is an exogenous shock to the market that once things cool down (see Taiwan or South Korea) people will go back to work, start spending, and get the economy rolling again.

Here's where I'm shitting my pants: if the U.S. does not get its shit together to get wide-spread testing and quarantining going (not this social distancing bs) things are going to get a lot worse for a lot longer, like Italy but on steroids.

SO, if your corporations who have taken on massive amounts of debt under this low-interest rate regiment cannot open up and start making money again, and later start defaulting on loans that the FED can't keep up with you're not only going to have '08 that was limited to housing and banking, BUT '08 with housing, banking, travel, consumer goods, tech, etc. going into the SHITHOLE.

I am currently buying a metric fuck ton of puts on businesses with high levels of debt that might not be able to open or get to consumers for the foreseeable future (Gamestop, Starbucks, etc.).

[Anonymous No.18031375]

>>18027037
This board is low IQ as fuck. Literally nobody can explain why it's bad, they are just following the memes like NPCs.

[Anonymous No.18031515]

>>18031375
already explained 100's times up there fag, not my fault you don't understand.

[Anonymous No.18031651]

>>18031375
What is so fucking hard to understand you fucking moron I swear to fucking god never post on this board again you obviously have brain damage.

[Anonymous No.18031821]

>>18027037
Here's what I dislike:

- These companies are literally allowed to take zero risks because they're too big and it's politically impossible for them to fail. This is garbage, and they're exploiting it.

- If there's a bubble, you can make its inevitable pop smoother but maintaining the bubble to appease investors is just trash. They took risks, let them take it why are you making me pay for it?

- We give so much to big corporations for "greater good" and we wonder why there is wealth gap and stuff. Right now, in the world we live in, if you have money, governments will take all the risks for you, they will compete with each other to not let you down, using taxpayer money. But if you're actually trying to make a living through labor, tough luck bro, big guy needs his 10th mansion otherwise he'll invest in some other country where it's acceptable to use taxpayer money.

[Anonymous No.18031837]

>>18031821
What I'm saying is, just take the hit. Managing a crisis is what the government is for. Masking the crisis is mismanagement.

[Anonymous No.18031964]

>what is moral hazard
We're already at record high debt ratios, public, private, corporate, and household, all at record highs, bailouts just delay the crash and guarantee it will be that much larger when it happens. We NEED a cleansing fire to burn away all the deadwood to allow new healthy growth to flourish

[Anonymous No.18032173]

>>18027037
It's not about teaching a lesson. It's about letting capitalism run it's course.

[Anonymous No.18032794]

>>18031037
"The borrower is slave to the lender" proverbs 22:7

[Anonymous No.18033404]

>>18028371
Those are so retarded it's painful to read.

[Anonymous No.18034708]

>>18027037
The economy has stopped movie, companies will not pay for labour, therefore there is no pay for americans to spend. despite this, the companies have the audacity to cry for bailouts, which in effect, is just enforced expenditure of the american public's money by the government. money the american public, doesnt even have. the bill isnt due now, but when its due, you are gonna pay it. it is literally the saying, "pedestrian when it suits them best, vehicle when it suits them best"; corporatism is literally capitalize all the profits, and socialize all the losses.

[Anonymous No.18035408]

>>18029482
What is bad for posting one post over several forums to determine opinions of a large spectrum of people?

[Anonymous No.18035616]

>>18027037
because the bailouts in 2008 trained everyone that if things get bad enough there will be bailouts.
if we lets companies go bankrupt then whoever survived would have known to be careful.
And it isn't like 2008 was the first bailouts.
Imagine how big the bailouts will have to be in 2030

[Anonymous No.18035651]

>>18035616
ok but is alternative of killing economy better?

[Anonymous No.18035743]

>>18035651
>high asset prices are the point of capitalism
whatever have fun with your rigged game

[Anonymous No.18035776]

>>18031334
>no new money is entering markets
LOL
who actually believes this

[Anonymous No.18035873]

>>18035616
This

Just let the clowns burn, there will be an tomorrow even after the crisis. And I really love to watch the shit show that is currently going on. Normies are going crazy because of coronachan, I cant wait to see their traction to the great depression 2.0 electric boogaloo.

[Anonymous No.18035925]

>>18027037
Because you are encouraging a system where corporations can just take on any amount of debt, any amount of risky assets, any amount of leverage, pay out any amount of compensation and when it goes bust it gets bailed out.

You end up with a system that is inefficient, allocating capital to zombie corporations rather than investing it for prosperity.

Look at Japan, that's what the future looks like.

[Anonymous No.18036030]

>>18029832
>The Fed is making the mistake of letting these fragile companies continue to exist, thus creating even more fragility in our system

Interesting, why is Fed doing this if it is bad?

[Anonymous No.18036162]

>>18036030
>Interesting, why is Fed doing this if it is bad?

Because of political pressure. The Fed practically is just there to control the inflation. They should not have even acted to save the markets. But the politicians won't allow it because it would look like they're doing nothing to address the problems.

>Capitalism: Let the free market decide its value
>Fed: No no, that's not the correct value!