Central Planning

[Anonymous No.16513157]

How did China succeed at central planning when the Soviet Union was a dismal failure?

How can central planning even work at all?

How many Chinese dudes actually spend all day calculating how much shit to produce?

How can central planning be compatible with innovation?

It makes no sense to my free market loving brain.

[Anonymous No.16513184]

>>16513157
China will collapse in time and the reason they've done so much better is because the US pumps trillions of dollars into them. Not something we did for the Soviets.

[Anonymous No.16513190]

They allowed capitalism and free markets. They are Authoritarian capitalist and have not been communist for a while now. I'm honestly surprised majority of the West still thinks they are communists.

[Anonymous No.16513191]

>>16513184
So basically the slave labor factor is what keeps them in /biz/ness?

[Anonymous No.16513201]

>>16513157
I'm not an expert, but I don't think Chinese Communists are communists in the strictest sense. As far as innovation goes, I don't think they innovate anything, they just ignore copywrites, intellectual property, etc.

[Anonymous No.16513203]

>>16513190

>Authoritarian capitalist

What's that mean exactly? Like, you can produce shit, but if we decide that we own it, then we own it?

[Anonymous No.16513204]

>>16513157
Anyone who questions the CCP goes to prison.

[Anonymous No.16513213]

>state capitalism
is doublespeak

[Anonymous No.16513215]

>>16513157
Communism works great in anthills. The problem is getting it to scale up from there. Which people are most like ants again?

[Anonymous No.16513216]

>>16513190
this.
it's not that central planned.
the soviet union had EVERY product controlled through the state, it was extremely inefficient.
China allowed free markets.

[Anonymous No.16513234]

>>16513157
China allowed capitalism to work in their country.

[Anonymous No.16513249]

>>16513191
Only for as long as guǐlǎo want to spend their meagre wages.

[Anonymous No.16513261]

Has to do with the population

Chinese are insects that easily submit to authority

Russians are white and harder to rule

[Anonymous No.16513273]

>>16513157
They are officially "socialist with Chinese characteristics" which is basically capitalist with a big authoritarian state.

[Anonymous No.16513279]

>>16513203
yes

[Anonymous No.16513280]

>>16513203
Yeah pretty much means their gov can decide to shut down your business, take it over, or prevent you from doing business anytime. Now go and build the most creative and wealthy business you can for Emperor Pooh Bear.

[Anonymous No.16513296]

>>16513249
Well they gotta eat.

Maybe the Hong Kong stuff will inspire a Chinese mainland uprising?

Didn't work out so well for the folks at Tiananmen Square.

[Anonymous No.16513304]

>>16513296
Fuck I'm an idiot with the spoiler shit.

[Anonymous No.16513306]

>>16513157
Their secret is they actually did start the second step of a socialist revolution which is transitioning to meritocratic then technocratic government structures. Soviets centralized all the power and never bothered to redistribute it. China's four-tiered administrative structure is surprisingly competency driven, nepotism will help you get into the ladder but won't help you past the third tier. I don't see them usurping capitalism though. There is too much inefficiency baked into the cake when a central body makes all the decisions and they have the option to throw infinite capital at their choices until they "work".

[Anonymous No.16513313]

>>16513157
>How did China succeed at central planning when the Soviet Union was a dismal failure?
Because Bolsheviks were in power for much longer in the soviet union. China took the menshevik approach where free enterprise is allowed aka it allowed capitalism to an extent (state controlled).

>How can central planning be compatible with innovation?
The reality is noone knows. Maybe in fifty more years we'll see if their system actually drives progress

[Anonymous No.16513315]

>>16513203
>>16513213
Instead of a free market consider it a "market held hostage" or "capitalism with a gun held to its head" its actually very based it has everything I love about authoritarian regimes with all the dabbing of poor fuckers that comes from capitalist markets. If Xi Ping didn't look like a cartoon character I would have moved years ago.

[Anonymous No.16513316]

>>16513203
They have state-sponsored monopolies that you need to let high ranking CCP officials fuck your wife in order to get

[Anonymous No.16513335]

>>16513315
>modern day slave advocating for tyranny
just fuck off honestly

[Anonymous No.16513353]

>>16513335
>efficiency is tyrannical
Whatever you say Cleetus

[Anonymous No.16513360]

So you guys pretty much answered my question about China. Obviously NK must follow more of a Soviet approach (with some weird cult shit mixed in) because it's a total shithole. What about Cuba? I'd assume that they're a little more successful than NK. Do they incorporate capitalism into their system, or are they pretty centrally planned?

[Anonymous No.16513374]

>>16513203
yep its literally a carbon copy of east asian economies.

[Anonymous No.16513378]

>>16513353
decisions made by decree are a compromise of efficiency.
Go live somewhere where you don't have property rights you hypocrite socialist

[Anonymous No.16513492]

>>16513296
Not whilst they experience the current rate of wage growth they won't. And by the time that's over they will all be nerve stapled.

[Anonymous No.16513905]

>>16513360
https://www.marxist.com/where-is-cuba-going-capitalism-or-socialism.htm
Cuba is basically still capitalist. But they are the most ecologically sustainable economy in the world, for what its worth.

[Anonymous No.16513929]

It started working when they made their market freer. Then they realized they could just practice contained capitalism while taking advantage of the total laissez-faire nature of Western economies and governments.

[Anonymous No.16513962]

I think it's important to note what Kissinger and Nixon did, by opening the door to trade with China it gave them a huge export market which brought in foreign capital allowed them to develop industries at home.

>>16513190
this

>>16513203
> Like, you can produce shit, but if we decide that we own it, then we own it?
More like, "you can produce shit, but we can also intervene at any time and get you to produce different stuff or to stop"
In the west you need to pass legislation to do that, it's called 'regulation'.

>>16513306
>>16513313
good posts

>>16513360
>Obviously NK must follow more of a Soviet approach (with some weird cult shit mixed in) because it's a total shithole.
North Korea are 'juche' now, which is a weird solipsistic philosophy that basically means 'autarky, military first'. The Soviet Union was never had true autarky, firstly because it was in fact a union of several countries, and also it controlled the economies of other Communist states in Eastern Europe. NK don't have that luxury.

[Anonymous No.16514096]

>>16513157
Their "central planning" goes as far as "ok let's let some of our big cities and districts be capitalist"

[Anonymous No.16514110]

>>16513962
Very comprehensive thank you.

>philosophy that basically means 'autarky...

Obviously from an economics standpoint, free trade between countries is an efficient thing that keeps standards of living high.

So because NK is basically aiming for no trade to fulfill their autarky dream, their standards of living are super low (in addition to central planning issues, and, you know, concentration camps).

The sad part is that lots (most?) of North Koreans aren't dumb enough to actually believe in all that bullshit, but they can't say anything or else the state will kill them.

[Anonymous No.16514236]

>>16514110
>So because NK is basically aiming for no trade to fulfill their autarky dream, their standards of living are super low
In addition to an absence of foreign capital to speed up any attempts at improving the standard of living. Which is why they currently basically rent out slave labor to places in Siberia and China, which unlike the Pakistanis and Indians in the UAE but very similar, the proceeds go straight to the NK coffers not to the workers themselves (assuming no one has their 'fingers in the till' and is embezzling, which is almost certainly the case).

>The sad part is that lots (most?) of North Koreans aren't dumb enough to actually believe in all that bullshit, but they can't say anything or else the state will kill them.
Yep, what eggheads call Pluralistic Ignorance and Preference Falsification are terrible things.

[Anonymous No.16514574]

>>16514236
>Which is why they currently basically rent out slave labor to places in Siberia and China

Did not know that, although not surprising. That's pretty fucked up. Thanks dude.

[Anonymous No.16514805]

>>16513296
There will be no mainland uprising and the HK chinks will eventually be reintegrated into the hivemind. Never underestimate the level and efficacy of the indoctrination the mainland Chinese have received.

[Anonymous No.16514823]

>>16513157
Central planning is applied in every capitalist corporation. You free market gullible fag

[Anonymous No.16514931]

>>16514574
Thank you for creating a interesting thread

[Anonymous No.16515045]

>>16513190
They fly the communist flag, call themselves the communist peoples republic, and have murals of lenin and marx plastered around the cities

[Anonymous No.16515094]

China is a unitary single party state that uses communism as an economic systemc in name only to pretend to do things their own way. In reality communism is pretty much dead except in NK.

The Chinese are a non political insect race capable only of reading and repeating the greatness of others.

They might innovate in particular areas that do no come into contact with the state but they cannot innovate socially or politically because they just follow what the state tells them so much so that it is moral in China to ignore children being murdered right in front of you otherwise you will get blamed for the crime.

[Anonymous No.16515124]

Cutting costs on safety really highlights their inability to Innovate safely with respect for the environment and human life. Look at any Asian area and you will see the deprecation for yourself. It has "that Asian look" because this is the society they want. Street shitter and nogs are the same.

[Anonymous No.16515142]

Fuck I hate China especially the men. I like the women provided they're okay to look at but your average Chinese is greasy and oily from overcrowding and shitty Chinese food.
Great thread op it appears I need to vent. Really hope the HK protests continue in 2020

[Anonymous No.16515162]

>>16513157
>How can central planning be compatible with innovation?

It isn't. China doesn't innovate at all. Everything it has today is stolen from Western nations by government backed hacking groups.

China is basically a 'cheap copy' of a superpower. It looks like one, but if you look closer, you realize it's all smoke and mirrors.

[Anonymous No.16515212]

>>16515162
This. I travelled through China once from Kashgar to Beijing and it's just another third world shithole except in places where there's an ethnic issue like one town had a nice han side while the tibetan side had dirt roads and huts. The Chinese are extremely superficial and only care if things look good in an app even if the whole world around them stinks and is a basic sewer.

They don't care about it and just laugh when you say oh why doesn't the local community organise to clean up this polluted waterway?

[Anonymous No.16515223]

The CCP is top-heavy with paranoid boomers who never got a decent education. They will collapse. The HK protests are just the beginning. Those in this thread who say the chinks can't overthrow their rulers need to study their chink history. When the people realize that economic stagnation is setting in its game over.

[Anonymous No.16515240]

>>16515212
Oh man thanks for reminding me. China DEFINITELY doesn't smell like a superpower. It fucking stinks everywhere you go.

[Anonymous No.16515268]

central planning always fails because it doesn't scale

[Anonymous No.16515360]

>>16515240
Also there's no social support systems if you are blind or in a wheel chair. Something like one in five people in China are blind or have partial vision and the average chink has no fucking idea. The west is where it is and we take care of everyone we can including scummy immigrants.

A classic response to problems in China is to simply deny. They will keep doing this until the whole system explodes and the next generation take over. Meanwhile the current generation will deny there was an problems with their perfect smelly country.

A true test for how good a country is is how many people want to live their regardless of culture. China fails this test. Even other Asians don't want to live there kek

[Anonymous No.16515505]

>>16515360
Taiwan #1

[Anonymous No.16515539]

>>16513203
>what does that mean exactly

[Anonymous No.16515593]

>>16513213
>non state capitalism
A jewish myth to trick the goyim

[Anonymous No.16515603]

>>16513157
>How did China succeed at central planning when the Soviet Union was a dismal failure?
The soviet Union had an overvalued currency. China had an undervalued currency.
Therefore the Soviet Union was effectively broke long before it collapsed, whereas China became the world's biggest exporter.

[Anonymous No.16515683]

>>16515162
>China doesn't innovate at all. Everything it has today is stolen from Western nations by government backed hacking groups.
There may not be much innovation but there's certainly some. When NEC investigated the source of counterfeit NEC keyboards that had been coming out of China, they were impressed with the factory's level of innovation.

[Anonymous No.16515715]

>>16513261
>Russians are white and harder to rule

lmao, dude. they aren't even slavs, just some fucking racemixing genetic discards

they were slaves till 19th century lmao

just kys fucking delusional degenerate

[Anonymous No.16515728]

>>16515683
> Chinese innovation is just sophisticated copying
Oh boy
>>16515603
Labor costs restrict China's development if they continue to focus on exporting. How many project managers and sales people does one country need kek
>>16515593
Capitalism is capitalism regardless. Its an economic system. They can be socialist capitalists with a strong state but it's still capitalism. Don't fall for Winnie Chang's parlour tricks.

[Anonymous No.16515789]

>>16515715
A seething ukranian untermench lmao

[Anonymous No.16515996]

>>16515045
Americans are damn stupid if they just take those things at face value

[Anonymous No.16516058]

>>16515996
Yeah, how could anyone possibly think the Communist Party of China is communist.

Also nobody said anything about America but nice projection

[Anonymous No.16516226]

>>16513157
>China
>succeed
>central planning

They failed until they instituted marker reforms.

[Anonymous No.16516479]

>succeed at central planning
>the most severe and oppressive government on earth just to keep people from revolting
yeah ok chink

[Anonymous No.16516692]

>>16515728
> Chinese innovation is just sophisticated copying
That's not what I said. The counterfeit NEC keyboards weren't just sophisticated copies - the manufacturers had actually improved the design.

China does a lot more copying than innovation, and their business environment is not conducive to innovation, but innovation still occurs there.

Whether labour costs will restrict China's development remains to be seen, but it seems unlikely.

[Anonymous No.16516702]

>>16513215
Underrated

[Anonymous No.16516738]

>>16515045
America has these words "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed," written into its founding document, yet somehow still had slavery for 100+ years of its existence.


Just because a government says or believes something about itself doesn't make it true.

[Anonymous No.16516783]

>>16516692
> Seems unlikely
They're already offloading work to satellite countries with cheaper workers
> Improving the design
Yeah but I don't expect anything new from China. I'm not saying they can't produce a more efficient product and make improvements along the way I'm saying they need the idea from the west first before they can modify it.

[Anonymous No.16516820]

>>16516783
>They're already offloading work to satellite countries with cheaper workers
They've been doing that for years!

>Yeah but I don't expect anything new from China. I'm not saying they can't produce a more efficient product and make improvements along the way I'm saying they need the idea from the west first before they can modify it.
Wasn't the same true of Japan half a century ago? Yet Japan subsequently became great innovators.

[Anonymous No.16516840]

>>16516783
>I'm saying they need the idea from the west first before they can modify it.
Probably because they aren't as developed as you think they are. They still have catching up to do, but China was once an innovator to. Some of the things we use today China created but you aren't aware of it. The US used to steal ideas from the British. The circle continues. Civilizations all steal ideas from each other, from the past and present. Romans stole from the Greeks etc.

[Anonymous No.16516858]

>>16513157
>How did China succeed at central planning when the Soviet Union was a dismal failure?
They didn't
>How can central planning even work at all?
It doesn't
>How many Chinese dudes actually spend all day calculating how much shit to produce?
They don't
>How can central planning be compatible with innovation?
It's not

[Anonymous No.16516889]

>>16513157
China is all talk. Fake. A paper dragon.

[Anonymous No.16516897]

>>16516820
>Wasn't the same true of Japan half a century ago? Yet Japan subsequently became great innovators.
I can't name a single premium Chinese consumer brand.
Yet I can name Shishedo, Marantz, Lexus, Sigma. Makeup, Audio, Automotive, and Camera Optics.
I can't think of any (non-Hong Kong) Chinese developed IP other than "Are You The One".
Yet I off the top of my head I can name Neon Genesis, Mario and Donkey Kong and Pokemon, Final Fantasy, Hello Kitty, Astro Boy, Iron Chef, Takeshi's Castle, Godzilla
Many of these brands are decades old.

[Anonymous No.16516910]

>>16516897
This was 15 years ago, where are the western appropriations of contemporary Chinese culture?
We already see K-pop infiltrating the western Zeitgeist.
I know this doesn't mean "China has no original culture" but it is interesting that as they move more towards a service and IP based economy like all developed economies that they lack the capacity to market externally their innovations.

[Anonymous No.16516918]

>>16516840
Thanks for the historical highlights Chang. I am aware China made interesting things in the past but now they are incapable of it for the most part. Just wait until you're hit with a recession and wild mobs of heartless Chinese start executing teachers and the "establishment" then suffer the repercussions again.
> Muh Great Leap Forward Mark 2.0

[Anonymous No.16516935]

>>16516820
Yeah but the Japanese at least produced quality stuff to compete with Germans and other Europeans. I don't see quality coming from Chinese brands because high quality isn't Chang's thing