UK anons. Crypto tax. What are you doing about it?

[Anonymous No.12908732]

Between June 2017 when I first entered the space and now, I've made thousands of buys and sells, mostly of shitcoins on like 7-8 different exchanges, some in profit some in loss, as well as putting in new fiat at various points too. I was overall in massive profit in Jan 2018, but right now am sitting at about a 40% loss on initial.

On the whole everything is a total mess. I'm sure that I would owe more tax to HMRC than the whole worth of my current portfolio.

So far I've pretty much just chosen to ignore tax completely and not tell anyone of my crypto holdings. I was hoping to somehow just pay bulk CGT on the amount I eventually cash out (hopefully in profit again), ie. on the overall profit on my total fiat investment.

How fucked am I though? Can I get away with this? I seem to doubt strongly that all the autists holding crypto right now have actually been documenting their trades and telling HMRC.

[Anonymous No.12908746]

>>12908732
>he's worried about crypto tax when the EU will destroy his economy in a couple of weeks

[Anonymous No.12908757]

mate, why in the queen's name are you worried about taxes on crypto? dust off your knickers and buy more, because before you know it your money will be tuppence on the pound.

[Anonymous No.12908795]

>>12908732
if your on a loss as a whole i dont think the government would know or care

[Anonymous No.12908807]

they say they’ll look at it on a case by case basis, but basically they dont tax bitcoin mining unless you cash out so how can they tax trading events if it’s strictly crypto to crypto ? Also if you’re holding less than like £10000 in crypto i really wouldnt worry about it, i think your position size needs to meet a minimum amount to even be considered taxable, let alone if it’s in crypto or not.

[Anonymous No.12908829]

>>12908757
Based and brexitpilled

[Anonymous No.12908863]

>>12908807
similar position
they don't have KYC on me other than coinbase. Going to ignore most of my crypto-crypto trades, the 'guidance' was only announced last year, and many felt it would/should be classed as 'gambling' and not taxable before, so they can't blame me for not retaining those trades. Most likely they'll just charge flat 20% CGT on whatever you pull out.

Unless you only have a pittance in, in which case, they won't care.

t. 50k GBP in crypto.

[Anonymous No.12908871]

>>12908863
this is basically what im hoping. thanks anon

[Anonymous No.12908875]

tax? lel....currently cashing out 2k-3k a month for living expenses.....I dont pay tax until I want to buy a house or something.

[Anonymous No.12908934]

Bump

[Anonymous No.12909148]

>>12908732
Had £45k in crypto-crypto gains in 17-18, none cashed out into real money.

In the end, I bit the bullet and paid my tax. The fact of the matter is, if I ever make it and dump 6-7 figures into my bank account, the HMRC have records of every transactions I have ever made. This makes it less likely that my bank account will be nuked and I wont have them knocking asking me where the fuck that money came from and why I didn't pay tax on it.

I would happily pay the £3k tax now and be comfy knowing that I can cash out freely one day then save that relatively small amount of money and get ass fucked in the future. The idea that ill never make it from crypto is stressful enough without having to worry abput making it and then getting fucked over anyway.

[Anonymous No.12909159]

>>12908732
No ones makes any money from memecoins anymore anon. This isn't 2017.

[Anonymous No.12909185]

On a related note to all this, will Coinbase still work to withdraw post Brexit? Even if we have a no deal? I have had emails from several stock brokerages saying that if a no deal happens the current 'Passport regime' would not suffice for the cross border services.

Some of them have been working with the Financial Conduct Authority to get a temporary permissions regime that essentially means you gotta liquidate/move elsewhere by end of December 2020 or your fucked.

[Anonymous No.12909187]

I cashed out just under 11k this year, not doing any more this year and not paying any tax on it. Never ever will I entertain the notion of being taxed per trade. When I want to cash out over 11k I'll pay tax on the mount over the personal allowance, that's it.

[Anonymous No.12909207]

>>12909187
yep, my plan exactly man. Although i was actually thinking of trying to do it with just 6k so i can avoid the compulsary National Insurance / Pension contributions, but i’ll probably just bite the bullet on that one.

[Anonymous No.12909216]

>>12909207
>>12909187
You are both delusional. You are disposing of assets when you trade between cryptos which is a taxable event. It is so clear and obvious that this rule applies when you read their guidelines. You will not have a leg to stand on if youre audited or ever want to realise a decent gain into £s in the future.

[Anonymous No.12909217]

>>12909185
Just realised, they are an American company, so won't make a difference I guess.

[Anonymous No.12909242]

>>12909216
but they’re not taxable assets. Their guidelines clearly state that a taxable event only occurs when cryptocurrency is exchanged for fiat.

[Anonymous No.12909254]

>>12909242
thats actually not what the guidelines say lol

[Anonymous No.12909256]

>>12908875
this, just smurf 2k-3k monthly, its unlikely you get called out for that.

[Anonymous No.12909259]

>>12909216
I mean worse comes to worse you just hope nothing comes to light for seven years, you get an overseas bank account, a really good lawyer, or just pay the back taxes, which will probably be miniscule in comparison to what you’re trying to cash out. Criminal culpability is all about intention and i think everyone in this thread did what they did by accident, not intentionally, desu.

[Anonymous No.12909267]

>>12909242
Dude you say this with so much conviction it worries me. You’re an absolute brainlet.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/tax-on-cryptoassets/cryptoassets-for-individuals#which-taxes-apply

>Pic related

[Anonymous No.12909268]

>>12909254
that was my educated interpretation of what the guidelines were trying to convey. To be honest they’re quite ambigious really.

[Anonymous No.12909274]

>>12909267
alright i’m gonna need the date that these guidelines were released ASAP.

[Anonymous No.12909287]

>>12909274

Dec 2018. Here’s a link.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/tax-on-cryptoassets

[Anonymous No.12909292]

RIP OPs stack ggez

[Anonymous No.12909298]

>>12908863
I second this. Only tax payable is Capital Gains, not tax on every transaction. Even then it can be argued it's gains from gambling in which case, no tax is payable.

Alternate option is to see if you can somehow buy a classic car with your profits without cashing out, then sell it again. For some reason classic cars (I'm talking high end, not an Supra) don't attract CGT in the UK.

[Anonymous No.12909299]

>>12909298
>Alternate option is to see if you can somehow buy a classic car with your profits without cashing out, then sell it again. For some reason classic cars (I'm talking high end, not an Supra) don't attract CGT in the UK.

that would be a 10/10 swindle if you could pull it off, but doubt any of them would accept BTC

[Anonymous No.12909302]

>>12909267
nah those guidelines literally state that capital gains tax is really the only tax you’ll have to pay, only under exceptional circumstances would HMRC consider someone to be a trader rather than an investor. Although it states crypto to crypto is a taxable event in actuality it rarely is, unless you make very organised, regular and substantial trades, the only taxable event that’s going to occur is when you cash out, although it is quite novem how they define ‘pools’ etc.

[Anonymous No.12909310]

>>12909287
FUCK YES they cant have a reasonable expectation of me retaining any trading records up until that date.

[Anonymous No.12909314]

>>12909310
yeah I think we're good.

[Anonymous No.12909332]

>>12909314
yeah man, but i better start practicing my lines a little better.

[Anonymous No.12909333]

>>12909310
>>12909302

Ok that makes me feel a lot better. Sorry for calling you a brainlet earlier.

[Anonymous No.12909353]

>>12909333
no man it’s fine, i just totally ad libbed that comment based upon my understanding of natural law and seeing a provisional copy of the new guidelines back in 2017. The pool stuff is pretty interesting though, i’m fairly certain you can game it.

[Anonymous No.12909363]

>>12909333
>>12909353
typical brits keeping it polite

[Anonymous No.12909451]

>>12909310
>>12909314
>>12909333
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/revenue-and-customs-brief-9-2014-bitcoin-and-other-cryptocurrencies
>3rd March 2014

Its been clear as day since 2014. Sorry guys I dont mean to shit on you fellow brits but this is how it is

[Anonymous No.12909477]

Cash out into revolut below 11k per year. Not registered above level 1 on Binance. How would HMRC ever know my trades.

[Anonymous No.12909483]

>>12909451

[Anonymous No.12909497]

>>12908732

You don't owe shit.

Also:

>40% loss on initial

just lol. get the fuck out of here and put your money into premium bonds like the rest of the dumb boomers, you've no business getting involved in crypto.

But you will, and it'll be when you're buying my bags off of me in the next bull run. Thanks in advance for working for me and handing over your money, good goy.

[Anonymous No.12909501]

>>12909451
>>12909310 #
>>12909314 #
>>12909333 #

Its all alright again boys, pic related should be enough to cover us, i’ll take a look inside if there’s any doubts.

[Anonymous No.12909508]

This shit is why I only invest in gambling exchanges. Zero tax, reasonable gains with effectively zero risk.

[Anonymous No.12909515]

>>12908863
>>12909298
17-18, there's an argument that guidance was clear enough that you should have been keeping records, 18-19 moreso. The issue with crypto is that if you ever /makeit/ then you might need to track everything back to when you first brought BTC with GBP in order to satisfy AML laws when you cash-out. A sensible thing to do is to cash-out >£11.5K then buy-back into crypto every year so you've got clean/complete records for when/if they're needed.

[Anonymous No.12909517]

>>12909508
they make it deliberately despotic in order to alienate the plebs.

[Anonymous No.12909527]

>>12909515
*<£11.5K

[Anonymous No.12909545]

>>12909483
Not sure what point you're trying to make here, this is basically stating that the baseline is CGT, but if you trade frequently enough it is classified as income and is therefore taxable as such. This would actually be worse for you as income tax is likely to be more than CGT.

I honestly hope you guys are right and dont get screwed in the future. I dont want the cunts at the HMRC to fuck over people trying to escape the hellscape of wage slavery and our shite economy, salaries and house prices. I may seem salty but thats just because I paid. At the end of the day, I paid up for my own sanity and peace of mind. It was only about 5% of my folio at the time so it seemed like a small price to pay for that.

Best of luck to you anons. Fuck the HMRC.

[Anonymous No.12909547]

>>12909527
i agree with the cash out and buy back idea, but i dont think theres an argument to be made that the onus for record keeping was upon the individual during those time periods.

[Anonymous No.12909555]

Also, if you have losses in 18-19 REPORT THEM. You will get tax relief of future years NOT JUST IN THAT TAX YEAR. This is something I realised recently. I have about £20k in crypto-crypto losses in 18-19 which i fully intend on using to offset over the next few years if we ever see another bull run.

This is basically using their guidance against them which will be fucking satisfying.

[Anonymous No.12909558]

>>12909545
yeah sorry man i replied with the wrong image, check my other comment. The point was that they rarely tax crypto to crypto events, unless you do it such frequency, precision (algo’s) and size that it can be considered trading, even then you’d probably have to fulfil at least two of these criteria to be considered a trader, if not all three.

[Anonymous No.12909568]

>>12909555
checked

[Anonymous No.12909576]

>>12909558
No worries gotcha. Yeah I think its very unlikely that anyone here would be classified as a trader.

Tbh I think the vast majority of people will not have paid crypto-crypto tax for 17-18. If it has been a lot more than 3k for me (I know some people were on the hook for 100k plus) I probably wouldn't have either.

[Anonymous No.12909582]

>>12909576
be honest with me man, are you a glow nigger ?

[Anonymous No.12909589]

>>12908746
>>12908757
>>12908795
>>12908807
>>12908829
>>12908863
>>12908871
>>12908875
>>12908934
>>12909159
>>12909185
>>12909187
>>12909216
>>12909242
>>12909256
>>12909267
>>12909268
>>12909274
>>12909292
>>12909299
DO NOT PARTICIPATE IN GLOW NIGGERS THREAD I REPEAT YOU ARE ALL PARTICIPATING IN GLOW NIGGERS THREAD ABANDON THREAD ABANDON THREAD
FUCK YOU GLOW NIGGERS RRRRRREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
>>12909569
>>12909569

[Anonymous No.12909598]

>>12909547
If it was just about tax, then it would be reasonable to claim a 0 cost-basis and pay your capital gains whenever you cash-out to GBP (this would be a lot simpler too). Thing is, if you make £100Ks+ and can't show exactly where you got it from, then you look like a launderer. Your cash might end up in 'safe-keeping' until you can prove it's yours. At that point, 'proving it's yours' can open you up to tax liability that's less down to your own interpretation of the guidelines and more down to theirs...

[Anonymous No.12909605]

>>12909589
GUYS I’M UNIRONICALLY OUT. DENY ALL CULPABILITY, SAY EVERYTHING WAS AMBIGUOUS AND YOU HAD NO INTENTION OF BREAKING THE LAW, IT ALL GETS ERASED AFTER SEVEN YEARS ANYWAYS, CHECK MY COMMENTS WE CLEAN.

[Anonymous No.12909622]

If I buy britannias with BTC and then sell the britannias for fiat, how will the HMRC tax my crypto? Will they wonder how I got hold of the britannias? Any way to exploit this?

[Anonymous No.12909628]

holy fuck aha this thread is crawling with glow niggers. what the fuck has /biz/ come to. anons saying to report your crypto because >muh offset losses

fucking retards

[Anonymous No.12909631]

>>12909148

You paid tax on £45k in crypto? But haven't cashed any out?

Is that what I'm reading here?

Fucking kek if true, because whatever you paid tax on is now 1/6th of what it was

[Anonymous No.12909648]

>>12909631
Well I cashed out the £3k needed to pay the tax and have since made it back trading anyway. Call me a cuck or whatever but no amount of 'i am a badass rebel' will save you from the reprecussions of tax evasion.

[Anonymous No.12909688]

>>12909648

Cashed out at the peak, then made money in a bear market when his portfolio halved, then halved again, and then again.

I believe you cashed out to pay tax, but I don't believe you made more back by trading

I bought in OTC, so I guess I'm screwed Tax wise. I have a little on Coonbase they might get me on, but fuck it. I'll spend bitcoin as bitcoin hopefully when mass adoption kicks in a little more

[Anonymous No.12909695]

>>12909648
But as you didn't realise any profit tangibly, why did you pay the tax? Is it because the profits were made on alts and converted to BTC?

[Anonymous No.12909743]

>>12909688
Its not that unbelieveable dude, and I think you got your dates mixed up. I cashed out 10k linkies at about 40c end of last year (just after the btc crash from 6k) and made those 10k back from QNT.
>>12909695
The 2014 guidance I posted above along with the conversations I had with tax advisors made me believe that crypto-crypto waa taxable. The Dec 18 guidance confirmed that for me and I paid up around xmas.

[Anonymous No.12909777]

Most of my transactions were made on accounts I no longer have access to. Also I’ve helped other people buy quite a lot of crypto on my accounts. I’ll pay capital gains tax if I cash out a lump sum over the CGT limit but other than that I don’t really know what they’d expect me to do?

In any case I hope that Chainlink will work and I’ll stake my tokens, cash out periodically and probably have to pay income tax on what I do cash out then.

I currently have £30k in LINK. If it ever increases in value significantly and I decide to sell, I’ll just pay a professional to sort out this mess for me.

[Anonymous No.12909780]

>>12909695
Yes, crypto-crypto is taxable, which is why I asked if you'd made profits on alts (only asking because personally I've only ever bought Bitcoin). Never cashed out any either, and haven't paid taxes on the 'non-realised profits' myself, so was just checking you'd paid tax due to alt-gains and not BTC

[Anonymous No.12909800]

>>12909777
>Also I’ve helped other people buy quite a lot of crypto on my accounts
I suggest you don't mention that to anyone other than maybe your lawyer because that could open up a big can of worms for you.

Did you spend £30k fiat on LINK or did you roll over some Bitcoin / other alts profits into it?

[Anonymous No.12909807]

>>12909780

How can you track every crypto to crypto trade? It's completely unfeasible and a ridiculous thing to ask people to do.

Fiat in - Fiat out are the only events that should be taxable. Only at that point are gains realised

[Anonymous No.12909819]

>>12909800
£4K in ETH, a few coins inbetween and profits rolled over into LINK.

I don’t know what my friends will do when they come to sell their coins, that I technically bought for them. With no record of their transactions I hope that they can just pay CGT and be done with it. I did warn them at the beginning that I have no idea what the tax implications are and they’ll have to sort cashing out themselves.

[Anonymous No.12909855]

>>12909807
Personally i used cointracking.info and between exchange imports and manually entry ive accounted for all 800 or so trades. I literally took a day off work last year and sat there all day to do this, but once youve got it you just add to it as you go along. Its not that bad, but its a pain in the ass initially. From there you can bulk export a csv of every day.

For my tax, i literally just gave the HMRC a number for cost and proceeds and then dumped that csv on them which corroborates those figures. I doubt theyll even look but atleast they know i have been as open with them as possible.

[Anonymous No.12909860]

>>12909807
>It's completely unfeasible and a ridiculous thing to ask people to do.
It is, but try telling that to HMRC. I agree with you on fiat in / fiat out; it would save a lot of headaches.

>>12909819
Nice work.
>I hope that they can just pay CGT and be done with it.
That would be the ideal outcome. Hopefully in a couple of years there will be a lot more dead exchanges, etc, where showing proof of purchase will be a common issue. If not, cashing out the bare minimum and using crypto as an actual currency looks like the solution.

[Anonymous No.12909874]

do NOT report ANYTHING to ANYONE

DENY everything

they cannot prove anything
if they couldn't you wouldn't have to self report

DO NOT TELL THEM ANYTHING

[Anonymous No.12909890]

>>12909855
Good going, and you're right - there's not a fucking chance they will do anything more than glance at that spreadsheet. I deal with HMRC regularly via my job and they are incompetent to say the least. Their training scheme for new employees seems to be a shambles because every time you speak to someone there they give you a different answer to the same issue. The only reason they get away with being such a shitshow of an operation is because, well, who the hell can you complain to

[Anonymous No.12909896]

>>12909874
Unironically this, but if you start withdrawing 6-7 figures into your bank account it's going to raise some eyebrows

[Anonymous No.12909906]

>>12908732
if crypto trading isnt your main job i.e. your day job, then you only pay tax on what you cash out. i dont even think you need to keep accounts of your trading b/c it's not a business activity. it's just gambling.

[Anonymous No.12909937]

>>12909906
can this actually be argued though? so say I've made thousands of individual trades, but not as a professional trader using it as his main income. you can really get away with telling HMRC its classed as gambling?

[Anonymous No.12909946]

>>12909874
>they cannot prove anything
"Your bank statement shows transfers to coinbase"
"I uh... it wasn't me...."

[Anonymous No.12909959]

>>12909622
Can someone answer me? Do they care about how you bought, say, £30k worth of britannias?

[Anonymous No.12909998]

>>12909937
it doesnt matter how much you make trading trading crypto, if you have another job which is your "occupation", say an office worker or a dentist or a construction worker, then that other work activity is ample demonstration that you are not a professional trader.
also, i shouldnt have used the term "gambler", that's superflous to the matter. i didnt mean it literally in the sense that that is what you are setting out to argue.

[Anonymous No.12910018]

>>12909998
no i get that, but i still thought that regular CGT would apply to your trades, in the same way someone buying and selling apple shares and then investing that in tesla shares would have to pay CGT

how can you get away with calling it gambling?

[Anonymous No.12910024]

>>12909890
>I deal with HMRC regularly via my job and they are incompetent to say the least.
hmrc are pretty based in that they just want to pay some form of tax on any income you bring in. they're not like the US inland revenue in that respect.
they're also very reluctant to bring criminal proceedings against anyone as well. you have to be basically running a legit criminal operation for that to happen and even then maybe not.

[Anonymous No.12910042]

>>12910018
b/c at the moment the government hasnt even defined what a crypto asset is. a stock trade or an established currency class has its own definition in law. this is why for the time being the government only cares if your cryptos are realized into £ sterling, then you pay tax.
this might change in future, but for present concerns this is what hmrc have said themselves, so there's no point in worrying about random hypotheticals.

[Anonymous No.12910153]

>>12910024
I think that's more of a testament to how poorly it's run dude. If they had the resources to investigate things more thoroughly, they would. They're grateful to get any tax at all because they generally suck at what they do (in my experience at least).

[Anonymous No.12910236]

>>12910153
when it comes to the normal man, pretty much all countries are chilled when tax matters are involved. it's telling of the deranged nature of the american project and its society that things are different over there.