/biz/ - Business & Finance

[Anonymous No.12195091]

Read Marx.
Read Foster.
Read Polyani.
Read Mann.
Read Perry Anderson.
Read Raymond Williams.
Read Weber.

Wake up, you fools.

[Anonymous No.12195101]

>>12195091
>read
yeh you lost me there gramps. who the fuck reads anymore

[Anonymous No.12195108]

>>12195091
enter a debate nigger
get owned

[Anonymous No.12195111]

>>12195091
>reading
When you can listen to audiobooks at 2x speed and finish in a third of the time it takes to read a book wew lad not gonna make it

[Anonymous No.12195119]

>>12195111
Maybe if you read at fucking 30 words per minute.

[Anonymous No.12195147]

>>12195091
theyre all white males!!!

[Anonymous No.12195268]

>>12195091

>Being attracted to an ideology for losers that cant compete.

Why are all of your comrades childless women and bugmen who secretly want to fuck those women?

[Anonymous No.12195277]

https://ia802300.us.archive.org/8/items/rofschildv1/IAmARofschildAxeMeAQuestion.html

read this

[Anonymous No.12195287]

>>12195091
Based. Communism is the only way we have out of this hellhole of a world we currently live in

[Anonymous No.12195291]

>>12195268
>being attracted to a boot-licking ideology that is going to destroy the planet in the vain hope that you'll somehow "make it"

[Anonymous No.12195330]

Why would I need to read that bullshit when I have memes? It's the pinnacle of human expression and philosophy.

[Anonymous No.12195331]

>>12195291
Lmao, the entire economy is inflated by fiat currency. All problems with "capitalism" would be solved if you simply stopped printing money you communist nigger

[Anonymous No.12195340]

This kills the communist

[Anonymous No.12195350]

>>12195340

[Anonymous No.12195384]

>>12195331
Oh right, things were so much better before fiat.
Wait, that's not right, we had a recession every other fucking year!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_recessions_in_the_United_States

[Anonymous No.12195428]

>>12195091
PhD here. You're reading a load of shit. Get some economics textbook and learn math please.

[Anonymous No.12195451]

>>12195291

If my ideology is boot licking, yours is gurgling the long black dick of the law. The saving grace of communism is that all of the idealist initiators end up murdered by the psychopathic savages who have the inate levels of violence necessary to climb the ranks socialist government power structures.

[Anonymous No.12195521]

>>12195331
the capitalists want the money to be printed you absolute idiot.
it increases the value of their assets.

do you even breton woods?
it was a red blooded capitalist that took us off the gold standard because he knew it would increase accumulation.

[Robert No.12195522]

>>12195428
not a phd

>>12195091
still learn math

[Anonymous No.12195536]

>>12195350
>implying functioning and efficient markets can't exist under communism

you really stopped learning economics after 9th grade didn't you?

[Anonymous No.12195550]

>>12195521
Fiat money isn't compatible with truly free markets though, the one that benefits the most by far is the government.

[Anonymous No.12195596]

>>12195550
what the fuck are you smoking son?
Every government with a fiat money system has lost it's control to govern their country.
There's a reason why the best and brightest don't go into government anymore, it's because they don't run the show.

[Anonymous No.12195605]

>>12195596
He probably still thinks the Federal Reserve is a government body.

[Anonymous No.12195620]

>>12195536
Efficient markers by definition cannot exist in a communist society. Also I did my undergrad in econ.

[Anonymous No.12195622]

>>12195521
>do you even breton woods

[Anonymous No.12195639]

>>12195350
socialism always fails because prices are dictated by the government. therefore no supply and demand and everything is in chaos

[Anonymous No.12195660]

>>12195521
retard. austrian economists are the real capitalists.

keynesians are fucking retarded and they are the reason why we've been fucked since they took us off the gold standard so the government can expand their powers through taxation by inflation.

[Anonymous No.12195710]

>>12195620
Get schooled shithead.
https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2017/11/22/565736836/episode-665-the-free-food-market

The difference is that the market is set up in it's own isolated playing field and being efficient in the market still provides you all the perks, but without eventually tilting the market in your favor.


>>12195660
>citing any other author except Marx for writing the literal book on Capitalism

i shiggy diggy my doo.

[Anonymous No.12195719]

>>12195710
>>12195710
capitalism is good retard.

[Anonymous No.12195747]

>>12195291
>wanting to have freedom of what i do with myself is bootlicking
yet somehow asking the state for permission for everything you do and asking the state to value all of your goods, and organise the way you live is not bootlicking

kys

[Anonymous No.12195753]

>>12195660
>but it's not REAL capitalism!
All you're proving with your whining is that Keynesians are more efficient at allocating value (and therefore BETTER capitalists) because they have utilized their capital to shape the economic system in their favor in ways that Austrians have as yet failed to do.

[Anonymous No.12195772]

>>12195753
government spending through inflation is not good at all. bankers getting rich at the expense of everyone else is not good. sound money is the only way

[Anonymous No.12195788]

>>12195091
ONLY BETA KEK RETARDS THINK COMMUNISM OR SOCIALISM IS A GOOD IDEA

[Anonymous No.12195791]

>>12195291
better dead than red nigger

[Anonymous No.12195795]

>>12195719
oh shit you're right
i forgot
thanks for clearing that up

[Anonymous No.12195814]

>>12195710
Get back in the breadline comrade

[Anonymous No.12195817]

>>12195795
>implying communism doesn't kill people
tell that to the 100 billion+ communism killed retard

[Anonymous No.12195827]

>>12195795
Capitalism isn't a system of governance

[Anonymous No.12195831]

>>12195795
>implying communism doesn't kill people
tell that to the 100 million+ people that communism killed retard

[Anonymous No.12195833]

>>12195291
Cuck

[Anonymous No.12195837]

>>12195817
>100 billion
u wot m9

you're worse than the jews and their 9 gorrilion

[Anonymous No.12195851]

>>12195837
dumbass those aren't white people so it doesnt count

[Anonymous No.12195852]

>>12195827
>imagine being so cucked that you don't think capitalism governs your every day

[Anonymous No.12195869]

>>12195852
this image turns my nationalism into the socialist nationalism

[Anonymous No.12195871]

>>12195852
>Hurricanes and natural disasters are caused by capitalism
mfw

[Anonymous No.12195877]

>>12195852
>i don't understand what governance means
well, what did I expect from a communist

[Anonymous No.12195892]

>>12195091
Communism in 3 easy steps
1. Blame the unsuccessful's problems on the successful.
2. Throw the successful into gulags.
3. Succeed at being unsuccessful.

[Anonymous No.12195894]

>>12195852
off the helicopter commie

[Anonymous No.12195897]

>>12195428
Nigger what?

He should read all the major economic works and understand the critical assumptions behind the math before he tries to use it.

[Anonymous No.12195902]

Another thread of communists vs. capitalists, no matter that no country in 2018 is 100% capitalist or 100% socialist

[Anonymous No.12195924]

>>12195795
Frick literally only had 10 people killed. The rest of the people on that list were dictators. Nice try reddit.

[Anonymous No.12195927]

>>12195710
>implying marx is infallible
Lel

[Anonymous No.12195935]

>>12195837
>wars are the same as genocide

[Anonymous No.12195979]

>>12195871
we can predict and or prevent all human life loss from any modern natural disaster.
the fact we don't is because of the all encompassing profit motive.

>>12195877
please don't look at the man behind the curtain

>>12195892
>2018
>believing in any form of meritocracy
did you see how bill clinton was the president?
and then we had prince GW Bush next?
and then we had the 2008 recession where everyone who caused it got off scott free?
and then we had a nigger who was sponsored by oprah?
and then we almost had bill's wife, but instead we got a senile fatso the clown?

fucking blow me dog.

>>12195924
i admit the macro is weak, but pinochet was put in power by the us as an experiment by milton friedman.

>>12195935
>implying it makes a difference

[Anonymous No.12196005]

>>12195979

[Anonymous No.12196018]

>>12195111
checked based underrated

[Anonymous No.12196074]

<3 afCtgh5z <3

[Anonymous No.12196112]

>>12195837
> cigarette deaths laid at the feet of capitalism.

[Anonymous No.12196154]

>>12195837
african slave trade was started by the same people who made communism

[Anonymous No.12196247]

>>12195837
> anyone who died from hunger was because of capitalism.

[Anonymous No.12196516]

>>12195091
>read marx

[Anonymous No.12196678]

>>12195837

This is the perfect troll image. Start with a few real events that happened to occur in capitalist leaning places, attribute it to capitalism because lol. Start adding some more fake shit with huge numbers, like there even being 114,000,000 natives in the western hemisphere for there to be killed when the conquistadors (representing an absolute monorchy) showed up. Round it out with the last 8 on the list being so perposterously untrue you are guaranteed to get (you)'s from anybody with two brain cells to rub together.

[Anonymous No.12196708]

>>12195979
I didn't say anything about meritocracy.
Success has nothing to do with merit.
Meritocracy is even more naive than equality.

If you work your fingers to the bone crafting a common resource that nobody wants, then your efforts are being wasted on folly.

On the other hand, if you just happen to forest gump your way to success, by providing a much needed resources or just happen to have the right idea at the right time, then you will be rewarded for providing that relief.

[Anonymous No.12197031]

>>12195451
Boom there it is dude

[Anonymous No.12197060]

>>12195837

>Khmer rouge (not commie)

So you just add them to the capitalist side. Top kek. This is bait.

>nazi holocaust 12MM

AHAHAHAHA LITERALLY A MEME

[Anonymous No.12197437]

>>12195091
/biz/raeli went too far in rejecting Marx and thought that buying a ton of shitcoins and sitting on it would increase its value.

[Anonymous No.12197798]

>>12195287
yes because a 100% success rate at producing miserable societies and resulting in a death total far far exceeding that of the Nazis is wheee we all want to go... again

[Anonymous No.12197836]

>>12195384
that's good
jews getting fucked in the ass for making mistakes
no fucking bailout

[Anonymous No.12197965]

>>12195277
>we are not immortal like you think
>the human body can truly be immortal
Smelling high level LARP.
>some mosquitoes are actually drug delievery bots
Uh uh

[Anonymous No.12198639]

Read Locke.
Read Hobbes.
Read Voltaire.
Read Rousseau.
Read Smith.
Read Montesquieu.

Get enlightened, you fools.

[Anonymous No.12199031]

>>12195091
>read a bunch of neets of which at least spent his entire life living in his parents figurative basement or with friends

[Anonymous No.12199166]

>>12195522
2&3 are the same space

[Anonymous No.12199178]

>>12195091
>Read Marx
I did, did you?

[Anonymous No.12199210]

>>12195892
>Succeed

[Anonymous No.12199241]

>>12195091
They're correct about economics but wrong about identity and human biology. If we had provided Karl Marx with more information and data, he would have been Hitler.

[Anonymous No.12199267]

>>12195291
take away a man’s dreams to make it and you end up with a lazy woman.

[Anonymous No.12199275]

>>12195428
Economics academics are just as retarded and delusional as commies if not worse

[Anonymous No.12199280]

>>12195091
>Read Marx
>Wake up, you fools

Anyone who says this unironically is either a literal child still or just found r/philosophy and thinks he's some kind of college professor.

It's not summer yet, go to bed already you have school in the morning.

[Anonymous No.12199547]

>>12199178
Based anti-bourgeoisie liberalism

[Anonymous No.12199887]

>>12195091
Marx's manifesto is horribly outdated, it's from a different time. A time where capitalism was industry focused unlike are customer focused markets today.

If we where in 1918 being a commie would make scene, today the markets see us feed and warm. Don't change something if it isn't broken

[Anonymous No.12200237]

>>12195091
communism
aka the regime of failures at every level

git gud at life and you'll enjoy it

[Anonymous No.12200302]

>>12199280
Are you serious?

Das Kapital is one of the defining works of the 20th century and carries an insight akin to genius about western society.
I have only read das Kapital and nothing else, and it sucked it's hard as fuck, but it's clear how it became the foundation of most of contemporary socio-economic studies to this day. You can't even put a political view on it even. It might have been more important for economic studies than the fucking Wealth of the Nations.

Are you all actually serious?

[Anonymous No.12200333]

>>12199280

Capital is possibly one of the most important critiques of capatalism ever. Solutions not withstanding, you really shouldn’t let /pol/ do all the thinking for you.

[Anonymous No.12200341]

>>12195111
>he doesnt read at 4x time

[Anonymous No.12200351]

>>12200333
I'd say it's a critique of wealth and its interactions. In my opinion it goes beyond what is considered capitalism.

[Anonymous No.12200383]

Capitalism relies on delusional thinking, IE most of biz has not made it, yet all still think they will, while being scammed as wageslaves

[Anonymous No.12200389]

>>12195814

ohhh the end of the world a standing line omg

[Anonymous No.12200403]

>>12195091
commie faggots are so proud of themselves when they finish an entire book

[Anonymous No.12200407]

>>12200302
You're thinking of Revolt Against the Modern World by Julius Evola and Mein Kampf by Adolf Hitler so start reading you illiterate loser

[Anonymous No.12200414]

>>12200407
Books written by edgy retards that died hated and laughed at, as expected by a bizlet

[Anonymous No.12200416]

>>12200383
What exactly is making it and will it be the same across the board for everyone?

[Anonymous No.12200429]

>>12200416
According to biz it means investing in a shitcoin that 100xes into prosperity

Of course, they don't consider exit scams, until it happens

[Anonymous No.12200430]

>>12200414
Go back to Green Eggs and Ham, sweetie. Here's your reading list:

The Catcher in the Rye (Compulsory high school reading)
Das Kapital (More mandatory reading for your entry-level liberal arts degree, you only finished half of it before smoking another bowl)
The entire Dr. Seuss trilogy

You will never comprehend the nuances of Adolf Hitler's works and the impact it had on this few thousand year old ball of Earth because you're a sub-100 normalfag

[Anonymous No.12200444]

>>12200430
Adolf Hitler basically killed off all the old world powers and set the stage for the superpowers of Today lmao

What nuance? Even fascists consider adolf quite a brainlet compared to benny

[Anonymous No.12200451]

>>12200444
We get it, you only read fiction novels. Nobody cares.

[Anonymous No.12200466]

>>12200451
Mein Kampf is fiction whatever happened to the 1000 year Reich LMAO more like 100 years a NATO base

[Anonymous No.12200486]

>>12200407
I don't think they're even in the same ballpark.
It's like you're trying to shoehorn your reads in a discussing not made for them.
Like talking about oranges in a conversation about chairs, idk.

[Anonymous No.12200493]

>>12200466
>Mein Kampf is fiction

Umm, you clearly haven't read it, sweetie. I am actually quite impressed you haven't read one of THE MOST important autobiographies of 20th century. You even mention Hitler's dramatic influence on the modern world and you haven't read his book? I pity you, honey.

[Anonymous No.12200504]

>>12200486
>Implying Mein Kampf isn't probably THE most important read in this post-WW2 world whether you agree with his philosophy or not

Jesus Christ. Listen to yourself.

[Anonymous No.12200510]

>>12200451
You get it man. Not "we". You're one of those pure rethoric guys aren't you? You don't want to study or learn, you just want to win.

[Anonymous No.12200515]

>>12200510
>You don't want to study or learn, you just want to win.

Studying and learning are just a means of achieving victory, loser.

[Anonymous No.12200542]

>>12200504
Well, it's not.

Mein kampf is very cattering to a specific mindset of victimist injustice over the political and economical pressures Germany faced 'at the time'. It influenced western society because it ideologically fuelled ww2. It's simply propaganda, like captain america comics.

[Anonymous No.12200570]

>>12200515
A conversation can be a way of mutual growth, you don't have to face it as a competition everytime.

Why don't you try to argue why Mein Kampf is that important for the western world and not just for you and your social bubble? Keep in mind I have read it before so you can be specific in your explanations.

[Anonymous No.12200583]

>>12200389
You're a fucking idiot if you don't realize why breadlines are a bad thing. Lines like that mean that their is a shortage and that there is rationing.

[Anonymous No.12200592]

>>12200542
>Mein kampf is very cattering to a specific mindset of victimist injustice over the political and economical pressures Germany faced 'at the time'
And it resonates with many woke individuals like me.

>It influenced western society because it ideologically fuelled ww2.
Exactly, moron.

>It's simply propaganda
And?

[Anonymous No.12200605]

>>12200493
It's a book that shows how delusional people can become and why German autism is particularly dangerous

[Anonymous No.12200617]

>>12200493
It's not important, it's not special, it's the ramblings of a bitter emo failed artist wannabe hipster faggot. He was too fucking dumb to make it in the actual business world (along with the rest of his low iq faggot friends) so they all got together, got some guns, and took stuff from everyone else that actually knew how to run things. He was a little crybaby faggot and all the faggot commies/socialists/nazis that follow him are crybaby faggots too. Nice reddit spacing asshole, go back to your sjw upvote circlejerk cesspool.

[Anonymous No.12200621]

>>12200605
>It's a book that shows how delusional people can become and why German autism is particularly dangerous

That's exactly how I would describe the works of Karl Marx.

[Anonymous No.12200637]

>>12200621
Not really, Marx never started a world war, and didn't kill himself after realising he ruined germany

[Anonymous No.12200659]

>>12200637
Umm, Sweetie. The invasion of Poland was a joint effort by both Marxist-inspired Soviets and Adolf Hitler.

>>12200617
>It's not important, it's not special,
Literally nobody agrees with you. Even the entry-level college literary students are afraid to admit that they haven't read it. You're in the minority with this opinion, I'm afraid. Go take a hike, kike. The adults are speaking here.

[Anonymous No.12200675]

>>12200592
So I can say that Mein Kampf has the same value as american comic by manipulating people with inflated nationalism and hyperbolic presentations of an invented enemy. And you want me to think this is an academically sound argument.

I'm still waiting for your explantion dude. I'm open to understand your point of view.

[Anonymous No.12200689]

>>12200659
Yeah but Hitler still started it, and he would go on to stab the USSR anyway, as his book indicates and that most of the USSR knew it was likely to happen

Seriously, just go on /his/ and /lit/ and see why dolfy is so mocked there, FFS the guy couldn't even get perspective right and he wanted to get into the most prestigious art school back then lmao

[Anonymous No.12200695]

>>12200605
It's a symbol of the dangers of shortsight. Universal in its glorification of victimism.

[Anonymous No.12200696]

>>12200659
The only people that think its special are other broke emo faggots with depressed pics on their Myspace. I'd tell you to slice your wrists but I know your motivation to do anything besides complain is absolutely minimal.

[Anonymous No.12200705]

>>12200675
>So I can say that Mein Kampf has the same value as american comic by manipulating people with inflated nationalism and hyperbolic presentations of an invented enemy

I mean, they're both propaganda, but if you're actually going to claim that Captain America and Mein Kampf are equivalent substance wise you're just delusional and pretty much confirmed to have never read the latter. But to be completely fair, The Communist Manifesto is also political propaganda based on Karl Marx's misunderstanding human biology and an incorrect theory that ancient man had no understanding of personal property.

[Anonymous No.12200710]

>>12195091
TL DR pls

[Anonymous No.12200720]

>>12200705
It's insane that people don't understand this. Even our retard ape ancestors traded a spear head for 2 hammer rocks, are commies/nazis/socialists unironically dumber than our brainlet ape ancestors from 10,000 BC?

[Anonymous No.12200738]

>>12200689
>Yeah but Hitler still started it

The invasion of Poland was a joint effort you moron. This is objectively untrue.

>Seriously, just go on /his/ and /lit/ and see why dolfy is so mocked there

HAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHA.

[Anonymous No.12200747]

>>12200738
Just go, seriously I have never seen a German so thoroughly anally destroyed as dolfy, hell even potential history is doing it now

[Anonymous No.12200750]

>>12200696
>he only people that think its special are other broke emo faggots with depressed pics on their Myspace.

What year is it? Did you just wake from an 11 year coma? Take a hike out of mommy's basement and get some fresh air.

[Anonymous No.12200756]

>>12200747
Why did you switch to mobile to post that? You could have posted from ID ckuH30Xn and I would have gotten the point. There's no need to pretend to be someone else.

[Anonymous No.12200757]

>>12200750
I mean, maybe it's worthwhile to understand how veteran Incels think lul

[Anonymous No.12200759]

>>12200705
I'm not defending the manifesto, I'm right-wing, dude. I'm defending Capital. And asking, pretty please, for you to actually explain why you think Hitler is this great writer you claim.

After you explain that, explain this
>an incorrect theory that ancient man had no understanding of personal property.
Please.

[Anonymous No.12200764]

>>12200756
I'm using 4g bub

[Anonymous No.12200777]

>>12200705
And as I can infer. You agree Mein Kampf is about overnationalism and invented enemies. Good to know we agree on that.

[Anonymous No.12200785]

>>12200759
> for you to actually explain why you think Hitler is this great writer you claim.

When did I claim Hitler was a great writer? You're strawmanning me. I think ideologically speaking I generally agree with many of his sentiments, and I truly believe that Mein Kampf should be mandatory reading for practically the entire planet regardless of their subjective ideologies.

>explain this
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primitive_communism#cite_note-1

[Anonymous No.12200798]

>>12200750
Been buying btc since the tradehill days, I'm not the mansion type but my gf does have 2 gf's. Try again.

[Anonymous No.12200804]

>>12200777
No, I never claimed that. But strawman me again. Hitler's enemies weren't invented. Communists, capitalists, and subversive Jews actually exist believe it or not.

>Overnationalism
Subjective

[Anonymous No.12200811]

>>12195091
i hate people who cant learn from failures so fuck off commusim bring nothing but misery

[Anonymous No.12200820]

>>12195814
>comrade
>posting a pic of a breadline in Czarist Russia

i see what you did there ;^)

[Anonymous No.12200821]

>>12195277
>https://ia802300.us.archive.org/8/items/rofschildv1/IAmARofschildAxeMeAQuestion.html
enjoyed but clearly a larp. the spelling and grammar mistakes give it away.

[Anonymous No.12200857]

>>12200785
I mean, it's right on the wikipedia article.
>In a primitive communist society, all able bodied persons would have engaged in obtaining food, and everyone would share in what was produced by hunting and gathering. There would be no private property, which is distinguished from personal property[6] such as articles of clothing and similar personal items, because primitive society produced no surplus; what was produced was quickly consumed. The few things that existed for any length of time (tools, housing) were held communally,[7] in Engels' view in association with matrilocal residence and matrilineal descent.

Not really difficult to understand. You're just bending your rhetoric to ridicule an ideology you don't want to understand even though it could have given you an advantage to your argument.
And I still don't see how Mein Kampf is important enough to be mandatory for anyone when its only achievement was to convince a vulnerable people to think they were superior than the rest of the world for reasons they were not even responsible for.

[Anonymous No.12200889]

>>12200857
> a primitive communist society, all able bodied persons would have engaged in obtaining food, and everyone would share in what was produced by hunting and gathering. There would be no private property, which is distinguished from personal property

Except this is factually and utterly incorrect and this belief that Marx had was in actuality based on nothing. We know for a fact that there absolutely were hierarchies within prehistoric tribes. And with hierarchy comes more privileges and 'wealth' in the form of food. No informed modern anthropologist would seriously believe that the weakest hunter would receive a ration equal to the most effective and strongest man in the tribe. It is complete and utter bullshit and is the fundamental flaw with communist ideology as it was founded on the belief that humans are naturally predisposed to 100 percent sharing and caring.

[Anonymous No.12200931]

>>12200659
>The invasion of Poland was a joint effort

Bull-fucking shit.
By the time the Soviets joined in (secod half of September), the Polish army was already completely defeated and Warsaw has already fallen. In most cases the Red Army seized territory that was already occupied by Germans, as agreed upon in the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact.
And both sides had no other real options btw.

I understand the willingness of Germans and neonazis to "share the blame", but 'joined effort' is just bullshit.
It's like saying that occupation of Czechoslovakia was a 'joined effort' of Nazi Germany and Poland, because Poland too seized some Czech territory, after the Czech-Slovak state and the military have collapsed.

[Anonymous No.12200951]

>>12195384
>All these recessions weren't discovered until after the fed came into being
Lmao you're a god damn fool

[Anonymous No.12200992]

>>12200931
I'm not sharing the blame, I'm simply stating that the Soviets also had a vested imperialist interest that would have spiraled into another World War regardless of Adolf Hitler. The Russian Marxists were quite an aggressive bunch, ask the Finns.

[Anonymous No.12201009]

Need advice, I need to be told what to think, which do you suggest?
Mien Kampf
Art of the Deal
Communist Manifesto

[Anonymous No.12201026]

>>12201009
The Ego and Its Own

[Anonymous No.12201047]

>>12200889
Going for the easy target instead of defending your half-assed logic, huh. In marxism private property is different than personal property (as it is stated on the fucking wikipedia article.) Lack of hierarchy in general is not a thing in communism, but the hierarchy dictated by the capital and the means of production. Everything you say is frail.
Your ideology is faulty, but that's not the worst. The worst is you don't even put the effort to prepare (study) or to defend it, and I gave so much openings for you to defend it it's not even funny anymore.

Jesus fuck.

[Anonymous No.12201060]

>>12195091
The ideas of these people have produced at best societies of oppression and stagnation, and at worst mass death, famine, and pestilence on a Biblical scale.

[Anonymous No.12201089]

>>12200804
Oh yeah, and the japanese are yellow monkeys , german girls love soviet dick, China is a cesspool of terrorists, americans are armed retarded hillbillies.

If you're gonna believe propaganda believe in all of them, the world is grey, there is no right side. Oh no, I forgot, you're too much of an imbecile to see the difference. Do yourself a favor and stop thinking, or start thinking, because whatever this is, it's not working and for what I understand you're just an acolyte of retard church.

[Anonymous No.12201092]

>>12201047
That article defines 'personal property' as being:

>The few things that existed for any length of time (tools, housing) were held communally

If you actually believe ancient man always shared his valuable spear with others; you're delusional.

>Lack of hierarchy in general is not a thing in communism

Keyword: Egalitarianism dumb fuck. It's the entire basis of communism. The end goal of communism is to make every man equal. Did you even read your own book?

[Anonymous No.12201099]

>>12201089
>If you're gonna believe propaganda believe in all of them

This isn't even an argument. Propaganda is a tool and every civilization uses it. Sometimes for the betterment of mankind, sometimes for corrupt reasons. I personally believe that caricatures of Jewish rats are created for the greater good of mankind.

[Anonymous No.12201149]

>>12201092
Egalitarianism is also the entire basis of french illuminist philosophy which based republican democracy.
Private property generates profit.
Personal property doesn't.
It's not on the article. Where did you read this? From the back of your head? I'm done. I can't handle this brand of stupidity.

[Anonymous No.12201198]

>>12200889
>a primitive communist society, all able bodied persons would have engaged in obtaining food, and everyone would share in what was produced by hunting and gathering. There would be no private property, which is distinguished from personal property

there will be always some hierarchy we are not gods we live in the rules of nature
you must be completely delusional to believe that you somehow can get rid of it you will either rule or someone stronger will force you into submission but in the end you will always meet competetion

[Anonymous No.12201232]

>>12200992

How exactly it would have spiraled into another World war without Hitler's ambitions? Any Soviet unprovoked attack against Europe would have immediately united all European nations against USSR. The soviets would have literally provided a much needed excuse for a 'crusade against bolshevism'. And in such a war the USSR would have been crushed, because of disparity between demographic, scientific and industrial capacity between the USSR and Western Europe.
Regarding Finland - better ask yourself, why the Soviets attacked Finland in late 1939 (and before the attack they actually desperately wanted to exchange territory to push the border away from Leningrad) and not 10 years earlier or during the Great Depression, when the Mannerheim line hasn't been completed yet. In late November, just before winter. Three years after purging their officer corps. Why the sudden urgency?

[Anonymous No.12201247]

>>12195091
lmfao commit seppuku and livestream it on kickstarter if this isn't bait

[Anonymous No.12201251]

>>12201198
>you must be completely delusional to believe that you somehow can get rid of it you will either rule or someone stronger will force you into submission but in the end you will always meet competetion

No shit, retard. Tell that to the communists, not me.

>Egalitarianism is also the entire basis of french illuminist philosophy which based republican democracy.

Okay? If you're insinuating that I believe in democracy, you're mistaken.

>Private property generates profit.

This scarce berry bush that I lay claim to generates profit in the form of food and with my strength and dominance I decree that the rest of the tribe may not partake.

>It's not on the article. Where did you read this? From the back of your head? I'm done. I can't handle this brand of stupidity.

If you're referring to the bit that mentions that tools were largely communal, it is in fact in that article. Ctrl+F dumb ass

[Anonymous No.12201287]

>>12195091
>He needs the state to act like mommy
Ideology of the weak minded

[Anonymous No.12201318]

>>12201232
>How exactly it would have spiraled into another World war without Hitler's ambitions

You actually believe the Soviets dindu nuffin? You actually believe the Soviets had no intention of expanding into Eastern Europe?

> Any Soviet unprovoked attack against Europe would have immediately united all European nations against USSR.

Why do you believe that? Do you actually believe the second world war was simply a matter of stopping the first aggressor? There were more geopolitical motives than that, moron. The nations that would have inevitably became the allied powers were not satisfied with Hitler long before the second World War and they very much likely intended to do him harm eventually.

>Regarding Finland - better ask yourself, why the Soviets attacked Finland in late 1939

Because the Soviets claimed it was necessary as a bulwark against the Germans. But before you play your childish game of "HITLER STARTED IT" you need to remind yourself that Hitler and Germany felt the invasion of Poland was also an act of self-defense against what would eventually become the allied powers. Wars don't just happen for no reason. Hitler didn't just invade Poland simply because he felt like being evil or whatever.

[Anonymous No.12201373]

This thread is on the christfag vs athiest level.

[Anonymous No.12201436]

>>12201318

'Dindu nuffin' isn't applicable to the great powers. Every empire did do something to get to that status. By asking this question (you) clearly outed yourself as someone who believes that an empire can do nothing (and that The Third Empire is such an innocent example, apparently).
If 'the nations' 'weren't satisfied with Hitler', as you claim, they could have stopped German re-armament program long before 1939. An intervention of a few French divisions could have stopped re-militarization of Rhineland in 1936 (and Hitler was extremely afraid of that, yet decided to gamble) - yet British and French did nothing. The Czechs actually could have stopped the Wehrmacht - the 'nations' decided to ditch them in order to appease Hitler. When Poland was attacked they did jack shit on the Western front - attacked one German village and then retreated back.

Also Hitler invaded Poland because the allies were giving him one concession after another, so he got more and more bold with his gambles. Because before September 1st 1939 he broke every promise he had made prior to that point and got away with it.

[Anonymous No.12201477]

>>12195091
READ SCHUMPETER

[Anonymous No.12201496]

My main take away from this thread is that communists are irredeemable faggots who need to be purged from society.

[Anonymous No.12201500]

>>12201496
Based and redpilled

[Anonymous No.12201584]

>>12195091
>be mad at everything around you
>create ideology that at first praises everything that is current, gathering the attention of hardened status quo supporters
>it also postulates that the very nature of the current state will result in it's violent downfall
>proceed to actively overthrow the current state using your ideological tool
Marxism suits Marx's/Jewish characterological bent a little bit to thightly

It should be heavily emphasized that if a marxist revolution happens that it will not happen under the flag of marxism or communism.

[Anonymous No.12201602]

marxist capitalist realism is based and redpilled.

[Anonymous No.12201620]

If you want to read someone read Engels but realize these people's solutions are bat shit insane. Their modern day followers destroy tradition and purpose and then say "see! The capitalists destroyed all meaning we must have a revolution!" The reason I said to read Engels is because one of the things he says is to let jews run their course because they will bring on what we now see as soulless crony capitalism and it will be easier to build support against it. Also you morons who actually want a commie revolution will 100% either be killed or sent to a work camp if it's successful somehow. Whatever cult of personality arises from it can't have you guys around.

[Anonymous No.12201641]

>>12195091
>Never read Mises
If you keep up this intellectual incest you'll end up with dysgenic retarded ideas.

[Anonymous No.12201645]

>>12195147

[Anonymous No.12202155]

>>12201009
Harry Potter

[Anonymous No.12202249]

>>12200889
Citation fucking needed for everything on your shit post. Accumulation in hunter / gatherer societies is fucking impossible to begin with. Were would you store fucking food, in your fucking fridge? Of course they'd share food, they have literally no use for it after they're satisfied.

[Anonymous No.12202464]

>>12200889
You are a retard or a liar.

Everybody a little serious now that there is no hierarchy in real primitive tribes.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/intl/blog/freedom-learn/201105/how-hunter-gatherers-maintained-their-egalitarian-ways

[Anonymous No.12203613]

>>12195091
>actually expects people on/biz/ to be smart enough to comprehend any complex political thought
I could find toddlers more insightful than these degenerate gamblers

[Anonymous No.12203626]

>>12195091
gay

[Anonymous No.12203645]

homo

[Anonymous No.12203649]

>>12201620
>accelerationism
Nick Land...

[Anonymous No.12203664]

>>12195111
Speed reading master race checking in. Just read faster bro wtf ya doin

[Anonymous No.12203735]

>>12202249
>>12202464

See, your problem is that you think hunter gatherer societies have anything to do with the dystopian nightmare of socialist power structures. Small bands of 20-50 people self reinforcing egalitarianism is one thing, barbaric psycopaths going about murdering, torturing and raping people into compliance with their marxist-theory absolute-power superstate is another.

[Anonymous No.12204503]

>>12202464
Here we go again.

Marx putting innocent people into gulags. Myself i believed it but it's been a few years since i got my facts right.

If you like stories i've got more: Ben Laden did 9/11. Rotschild and Rockfeller are philantropists, People walked on the moon. The US Fed is a public institution...

>torturing and raping people into compliance with their marxist-theory absolute-power superstate is another.

Marx was in favor of the abolition of the state.

[Anonymous No.12204572]

sage.

[gommie faggot !!ybZU7IbD8fv No.12204656]

>>12200493
>important
>autobiography
hmmm

[Anonymous No.12204669]

>>12201092
>If you actually believe ancient man always shared his valuable spear with others; you're delusional.

A spear wasn't valuable.

In primitive tribes, everybody is taught and can build anything.

Maybe in a hard time when wood wasn't around, a spear wouldn't be shared, but most of the time there was no such thing as property since everything was used directly after being produced. No trade or accumulation.

[Anonymous No.12204676]

>>12204503

Yes, marx's ideas led directly to people being put in gulags. As has been mentioned many times on /biz/, marx himself was a pathetic revolutionary wannabe who retreated further and further into merit-hating philosophy after getting BTFO by reality. How do you seriously follow the words of a man who was supported by a wealthy aristocrat who himself was supported by the fortune of his wealthy industrialist father. It's like faggot champagne socialist inception.

[gommie faggot !!ybZU7IbD8fv No.12204693]

>>12203735
Stalin and the soviet government largely adjusted theory wherever it was convenient, convenience born of the given situation they were in.

Russia also had a long history of powerful bureaucratic states, and still does, I don't think there is anything obviously essential about a ""totalitarian"" state for communism.

[Anonymous No.12204703]

>>12204693
this. Russia suffered because of russians, not communism.

[Anonymous No.12204704]

>>12195091
>reading about deluded idiots believing in "equality".

>>12195291
>implying commies don't eat their own people nor they destroy their own environment
Something something today China, something something Tchernobyl.

[Anonymous No.12204740]

>>12195091
Read history, from prehistoric to modern times, and you'll get a much better perspective on humanity.

[Anonymous No.12204761]

>>12204693
>I don't think there is anything obviously essential about a ""totalitarian"" state for communism.

How would you enforce communism without a totalitarian state?

[gommie faggot !!ybZU7IbD8fv No.12204767]

>>12204676
>merit-hating
lol

>>12204704
>Equality

Marx's critique of capitalism was not that it was unequal or that merit produces hierarchy, but that class privilege is not founded on merit and that it reduces freedom by forcing most people to support the leisure of the wealthy instead of getting more free time for themselves and self actualization.

[Anonymous No.12204773]

>>12204761
By reaching a state of abundance where a totalitarian state would not be needed

[Anonymous No.12204774]

>>12195331
this
/thread

[Anonymous No.12204777]

>>12195091

[Anonymous No.12204788]

Why do people support communism again?

Something like "Equality" is just shallow.

[Anonymous No.12204797]

>>12199241

[Anonymous No.12204811]

>>12204676
>As has been mentioned many times on /biz/

...


I think people like you really want to succeed in life, to have a better existence, to not be a wagecuck, or having a good job, having comfort etc...

Fortunately, you will succeed, and will have a nice life, with material abundance, no petty boss etc...

However, you seem to not understand that we should not even have to make such efforts to just live happily.
Humans are not supposed to compete against each other. At least not everyday, all the time.

Just go watch a good documentary about primitive tribes. More fun: Apocalypto from Mel Gibson is a movie but seems very realistic in my opinion.

The natural way of living of homo sapiens has nothing to do with the circus modern capitalistic society is.

[Anonymous No.12204814]

>>12204693
>>12204703
>it wasnt real communism
Quintessentially brain dead. How to you fucking latino's keep you dick hard for this horseshit? This is why you fucks will never amount to anything on the global stage.

[Anonymous No.12204817]

>>12204773
That's only possible with singularity. Even then, the utopia would only last for a short time before humanity regresses back to conflict. When survival needs are easily met, people will fight over something else. (Look at Calhoun's utopian rat experiment.)

[gommie faggot !!ybZU7IbD8fv No.12204821]

>>12204761
In developed capitalist countries we already largely have the infrastructure in place to have non governmental bodies democratically coordinate production. The corporate shareholder voting system, when ownership is expropriated from the capitalists to the workers and people at large, is one method. Cooperative property law, and nationalized finance are other methods that were experimented with in yugoslavia, but which can also be improved upon. Municipal ownership and coordination is another option still, as are worker councils, ect.

[Anonymous No.12204834]

>this entire board is being btfo by a single leftist
keep up the good work comrade o7

[Anonymous No.12204848]

>>12204817
So perhaps communism will occur at singularity? The point is that it will come when circumstances will be in accordance to what is needed/necessary. Can't be forced into life before that point.

[gommie faggot !!ybZU7IbD8fv No.12204877]

>>12195331
Even if you returned to a gold standard it wouldn't solve the problem of inflation, interest rates would still be low due to high levels of accumulation creating surplus loan-able funds, and the amount of debt issued would increase the money supply and raise prices anyway.

>>12204814
In case you have trouble with reading, my assertion was that a powerful state was not an /essential/ part of communism, not that it was incompatible with communism. Whether communism existed in the so called "2nd world" is neither here nor there because we are not facing the same conditions they were, and whatever system that's born from expropriating capitalists in developed countries would be quite different from that born of peasants expropriating landlords in semi-feudal countries.

[Anonymous No.12204883]

Read Ryand who spoke out in opposition of communist Russia's economics, where she immigrated from.
Read Samuel Adams
Read American. Politics now isn't what it used to be,
the Federalist papers blow my brain off.
Still, in 2018, the results speak for themselves.
Chinese don't steal American shit because they are flowing with creative, freedom loving citizens

[Anonymous No.12204886]

>>12204817
>When survival needs are easily met, people will fight over something else.
This is already happening.

The modern political bullshit?

All a result of humans striving for the most accessible form of meaning the media presents, believing themselves to be incapable of changing their personal situation, political activism is far too easy a substitute and very addictive.

[Anonymous No.12204890]

>>12204821
Why should people who weren't responsible for starting the business or even working for the business at the beginning stages be given the same rights and benefits as the people who were part of the business since the beginning? This completely removes the incentive for starting businesses.

[Anonymous No.12204901]

>>12204821
The corporate shareholder system works because once you don't like the direction a company is taking or see a better opportunity you can sell your shares and move on..

[Anonymous No.12204920]

>>12204877
>whatever system that's born from expropriating capitalists in developed countries would be quite different from that born of peasants expropriating landlords in semi-feudal countries

Literally Venezuela: went from quasi-free market with one of the highest per-capita GDPs to asshole of the universe after adopting hard socialist policies.

[Anonymous No.12204968]

>>12204848
The apocalypse might also occur at singularity. Technology is a double-edged sword. The majority of humanity isn't satisfied with having just their basic needs met. They always have this evil itch they need to scratch.

[gommie faggot !!ybZU7IbD8fv No.12205018]

>>12204890
It reduces, but not removes such incentives. If you think the business is going to be successful then you'll get plenty of benefits by working there. Generally, it increases incentives for people to come together to create businesses instead of individuals going at it alone, or at least pretending they are since even starting a business usually requires more help than most people like to admit.


>>12204901
I'm referring to the voting system. Of course, all this talk is hypothetical, I can't say for certain how the socialist version for work, but one possible way is that if voters don't like how a company's being run or it's being unproductive it can be liquidated and it's resources distributed to more productive parts of the economy, much like how it'd work within a large corporation ending one brand and putting its resources towards another. This isn't about speculating about the /value/ of a company, a practice of capitalism that is increasingly becoming irrational, it's about exercising control.

[gommie faggot !!ybZU7IbD8fv No.12205038]

>>12204920
Venezuela was and is still a single commodity based country, and one of the largest such countries via population. You spread that wealth over a much larger population it gets that much more burned when that commodity goes down. Of course, you could just not spread it around and have most of the population just remain fucked like in Angola for example.

[Anonymous No.12205040]

>>12204877
>Whether communism existed in the so called "2nd world" is neither here nor there because we are not facing the same conditions they were, and whatever system that's born from expropriating capitalists in developed countries would be quite different from that born of peasants expropriating landlords in semi-feudal countries.

What would it be different? They just savagely murder the people they don't like as they always have throughout history. People are still violent in First World countries. Look at the crime statistics.

[Anonymous No.12205059]

>>12204811
>However, you seem to not understand that we should not even have to make such efforts to just live happily.
True, you can live happily in a mudhut in the middle of the savannah like a nigger, it's all about your standards.
The thing is people crave more material comfort, always, a middle class american family experiences multiple times more luxury than a feudal lord 1000 years ago, but to have that you need to work and participate in modern society.

>Humans are not supposed to compete against each other.
Most bluepilled statement you can make, maybe go read some evolutionary psychology, life is geared entirely toward competition.
We even are a semi-tournament species.

>Just go watch a good documentary about primitive tribes. More fun: Apocalypto from Mel Gibson is a movie but seems very realistic in my opinion.
>The natural way of living of homo sapiens has nothing to do with the circus modern capitalistic society is.

All of this has nothing to with the captalism, which is just an organic way the economy developed itself through time under the pressure of trade, communication and industry, not some grand oppressive scheme like commies pretend it is, it just happened.

The real driving factor behind our modern life is technology itself, and this is what post modernist faggot sophists and other leftist intellectual never talk about because their framework is the same people they oppose:
- Industry? Good!
- Technology? Good!
- Material abundance? Good!
They just rage against the distribution as they can't really compete to be where their egocentric nature tells them they should be, but they have no real critics against the fundamentals of the techno industrial society.

Communists are just the "have not" wanting be the "have", hell their entire ideology revolves around the myths of the "revolution" which is really just about material situation (which ironically only worsens it for everyone given enough time compared to the rest of the world).

[gommie faggot !!ybZU7IbD8fv No.12205063]

>>12205040
That people are violent, as you point out, occurs everywhere. The point is that the economic system would function differently when you are starting from different institutions and don't have to worry about liquidating peasants to industrialize.

[Anonymous No.12205294]

>>12205038

>100 years of commodity fueled socialist spending policies isn't enough to have it end in anything other than absolute disaster.
You are so fucked in the head with propaganda word salad that you cant even see that you just defeated your own argument: "it will be different next time because it wont be peasants expropriating landlords in semi-feudal countries". Apparently fucking not, according to yourself
>You spread that wealth over a much larger population it gets that much more burned when that commodity goes down
So in other words, forced redistribution of wealth is a critically flawed concept that never works in the long run.

[gommie faggot !!ybZU7IbD8fv No.12205355]

>>12205294
We're talking about the surplus created by oil, anon. It's just another version of what countries like what Norway and Saudi Arabia have done, and is only possible because of the way international markets work.

Socialism isn't about the redistribution of wealth as in money. It's about the redistribution of the means of production. In Venezuela, the lack of diversification and inefficiency in the oil sectors, which occurred under both Chavez and his capitalist predecessors, meant that you couldn't rely on the proceeds of that production. This isn't really a problem in a more developed country.

[Anonymous No.12205360]

>>12205059
>>Humans are not supposed to compete against each other.
>Most bluepilled statement you can make, maybe go read some evolutionary psychology, life is geared entirely toward competition.
We even are a semi-tournament species.

You know there are lots of species which cooperates right?

Take the duality of chimpanzees/ bonobo. chimpanzees: agressive dominant, violent/ bonobo: pacific, no competition for sex, benevolent.
Are we chimpanzee or bonobo? Probably in-between.

>All of this has nothing to with the captalism, which is just an organic way the economy developed itself through time under the pressure of trade, communication and industry, not some grand oppressive scheme...

True, but since there was other mode of production before, like the feudal mode of production (pretty liked here on 4chan), or the slave mode of production (antiquity), our current mode of production, capitalism, isn't eternal.

In any case, the tendency of the rate of profit to fall means at some point capitalism won't work anymore.

[Anonymous No.12205405]

>>12205355
>It's about the redistribution of the means of production.

You can't redistribute production to everyone because not everyone is fit for the same jobs. Factory work is not the same as farm work, which is not the same as construction work, etc.

Look at what had happened in Zimbabwe when they've redistributed farmland. A lot of black people were given land but many didn't want to be farmers nor did they know how to farm. As a consequence there was a widespread food shortage.

In a more developed country, you would have still the same problem when you just redistribute means of production and expect everything to magically work.

[Anonymous No.12205406]

>>12205059
Just found (thanks to you) that we seem to be closer to bonobo...

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-4463722/Bonobos-closely-related-humans-chimps.html

[Anonymous No.12205437]

>>12195091

Read Adam Smith.
Read David Ricardo.
Read Frédéric Bastiat.
Read Carl Menger.
Read Ludwig von Mises.
Read Friedrich Hayek.
Read Murray Rothbard.
Read Hans-Hermann Hoppe.

Wake up, you fools.

[gommie faggot !!ybZU7IbD8fv No.12205482]

>>12205405
>You can't redistribute production to everyone because not everyone is fit for the same jobs
We're not talking about redistributing jobs. We're talking about the redistribution of ownership of capital, which, at the highest levels, will be socialized and owned by society as a whole.

>Look at what had happened in Zimbabwe when they've redistributed farmland.
Land reform has a history far longer than Zimbabwe with plenty of high notes and low notes, however, that's also not what we're talking about here.

>In a more developed country, you would have still the same problem when you just redistribute means of production and expect everything to magically work.
The big capitalists largely have no technical role in the organizations that make their money, to force them to hand over ownership would not immediately change how things are run.

[Anonymous No.12205523]

>>12205355
>We're talking about the surplus created by oil, anon
what about the surplus created by private business?
what about the surplus created private ownership of farms?
what about the surplus created by uncensored creation of art?
what about the surplus created by literally everything that isnt crushed and exploited by socialist policies?
Your ideal system is a never ending vortex of ever increasing government sucking up everything productive and giving it to human trash.

Redistributing the means of production IS redistributing wealth. There is no difference. Capital is fungible.

You 115 IQ midwits are the absolute worst. Just smart enough to comprehend works like DAS KAPITAL, not smart enough to widen your view to encompass the total set of known factors in history, politics, philosophy and economics and come to a conclusion other than the literal worst one.

[Anonymous No.12205612]

>>12205482
>We're talking about the redistribution of ownership of capital, which, at the highest levels, will be socialized and owned by society as a whole.

First you're talking about means production, now you're talking about capital. That basically means redistributing everything.

>Land reform has a history far longer than Zimbabwe with plenty of high notes and low notes, however, that's also not what we're talking about here.

Land is a means of production. That's exactly what we're talking about. Crops are produced on farmland. goods are manufactured in factories. They both involve converting capital and a labor into profit.

>The big capitalists largely have no technical role in the organizations that make their money, to force them to hand over ownership would not immediately change how things are run.

Many "capitalists" started off in some lower position. Are you seriously arguing workers never try to start their own businesses?

[Anonymous No.12205614]

>>12205523
>6 billion people live in poverty or wage slavery, and a few own jet ski dealerships.

What's wrong with redistributing wealth? Would it not be an even greater economic stimulus?

[Anonymous No.12205642]

>>12205523
In any case, in a post capitalist society, there would be no such thing as private property of the means of production, or thing like a central state, delegation of power, or money.

You seem to misunderstand a view of a future with a mode of production that is not capitalistic with the resurgence of Bolshevism, which was state capitalism.

>Redistributing the means of production IS redistributing wealth. There is no difference. Capital is fungible.

After the fall of capitalism due to the tendency of the rate of profit to fall, there is no more wealth to keep or to redistribute.

[Anonymous No.12205660]

>>12205482
You're the most patient motherfucker I've ever seen.

I actually want to be like that one day.

[gommie faggot !!ybZU7IbD8fv No.12205674]

>>12205523
The surplus created private business and farms is created by workers employing the means of production, that surplus is taken by the capitalists, the landholders and chucked into debt and investment markets desperate for more surplus. It's exactly this circulation that creates the business cycle since you are forcing investment and production above possible consumption.

The distinction I was getting at was that the surplus created by the sale of oil has more to do with rent created by opec and natural resource exploitation than anything actually productive, and was thus not sustainable or reliable.

Redistributing the means of production is redistributing the means of wealth creation. Not wealth itself.

>>12205612
>First you're talking about means production, now you're talking about capital. That basically means redistributing everything.
I was referring to physical capital, money capital would probably become obsolete.

>Land is a means of production. That's exactly what we're talking about.
Land reform is about atomizing production of agriculture, handing the land over to small peasant producers instead of creating larger socialized business or larger operations period. This is something that communists were originally opposed to until Lenin was forced to do it in order to win over peasants in the russian civil war.

>Many "capitalists" started off in some lower position
This isn't an argument about virtue or who did what at what point, it's about what's going on now in the heights of industry.

[Anonymous No.12205688]

>>12205614
If I was trying to complete literally any task, with either 1 person capable of running a jet ski dealership or 1000 random peasants/wageslaves from around the world, I would pick the 1 dealership dude and be better off for it.

[Anonymous No.12205692]

>>12195091
How does one prevent this?

[Anonymous No.12205708]

>>12195091
Thats a lot of shit you have on your list

Just read de maistre, Spengler, and guenon instead

[Anonymous No.12205718]

>>12205692
It has come to that, huh?
Propaganda is such a dangerous bitch.

[Anonymous No.12205750]

>>12205674
You haven't address my earlier point of how redistributing "physical capital" (you changed wording again) would work out where not everyone has the same skills to work with the said capital. You know there's never a 1:1 ratio of a person to "capital" right?

No matter how much you try to spin it, the distribution of resources will have to be uneven because it would be pointless to give capital to someone who's incapable of working with it.

[Anonymous No.12205808]

>>12205642
>no such thing as private property
how?
>either magic, or a giant violent state will force you to relinquish private property and the means of production
who prevents the state from monopolizing the means of production after they violently take it away from the people?
>magic

>After the fall of capitalism due to the tendency of the rate of profit to fall
This^ is not fucking true in the context of an infinite possible number of not-yet-created goods and services. The ever decreasing rate of profit that results in the market price point of a 2018 Ford Car is negated by the new and improved 2019 Ford Car that has the possibility of rejuvenating the profit margin from the prior inferior version. The decreasing profitability of McDonald's 2017 menu has been possibly mitigated by a revised 2018 menu. So on and so forth, literally endless.

[Anonymous No.12205809]

>>12205688
You're confusing the managers with the owners.

Nobody's arguing that management needs to be redistributed. The additional value that any enterprise generates should be put towards the betterment of our society, and not turned into gold-plated Mercedes for a few heirs.

[Anonymous No.12205840]

>>12205808
The more efficient the production become, the less profit can be made. Check tendency of the rate of profit to fall.

https://thenextrecession.files.wordpress.com/2014/04/world-rate-simple-mean.png

[gommie faggot !!ybZU7IbD8fv No.12205842]

>>12205750
No this I did address, we're not redistributing jobs, or physically redistributing things by giving them to different people.

Rather, the point is that private property, today, has become so separate from who actually works on and uses things, that it no longer makes sense to say "this one person owns all of this". There are two different sets of logic to this, one, on the side of workers, two, on the side of consumers. In many firms the capitalist does no productive work at all, and where they do it's just one role out of many, so it makes sense to have the workers own and have a say in their workplace. On the consumer side, private trade was originally conceived as a further development of barter, two individuals facing each other who each give each other different equally valuable commodities. What's changed is that we now have just a handful of people who produce all these goods used by the entirety of society. It no longer makes sense to use private property as a coordinating mechanism for this, rather, these companies should be socialized and run for the good of the society it is producing for, instead of using its market share to jack up prices for the good of the few.

[Anonymous No.12205862]

>>12205809
Are you saying it's impossible for the manager to be the owner as well?

[Anonymous No.12205898]

>>12205809
Managing capital is a value-adding task completed in a society just like managing a physical retail location. Your head is filled with a cartoon monopoly man sitting back with a fat cigar doing nothing while profits roll in. There is no such thing as stable wealth, it is either increasing with responsible actions, or decreasing with irresponsible actions. The only form of wealth that is truly inherited is IQ (80% heritable 20% random, every generation), and wealth accumulation is tightly correlated with IQ.

[Anonymous No.12205900]

>>12205750

Wealth is not necessary to produce useful items.

Items when produced should not be allocated regarding to wealth but regarding to needs.

E.G: an ambulance has a poor 120 horsepower motor. A wallstreet trader, soccer player, beauty queen or inheritard has a BMW SUV with 300 horsepower. That's just a retarded way to allocate the production.

[Anonymous No.12205927]

>>12205842
We already have socialized services (policing, firefighting, mail, utility, etc.) but how they're run and how the employees are treated are no different than what's being done in private sectors and the pricing is never cheap. In fact, it can more expensive because they have no incentive to be competitive. Shipping is one of those areas where the public mail service isn't competitive at.

[Anonymous No.12205952]

>>12205900
In short, wealth should not be the motor of the production.

[Anonymous No.12205959]

>>12205840
You literally ignored the point that refutes this. IT. DOESNT. FUCKING. MATTER. A decreasing rate of profit for item #99999997 is negated when replacement item #99999998 comes out. Profit immediately starts falling for item #99999998, but that also doesn't matter because item #99999999 is just around the corner and that too rejuvenates the profit margin.

[Anonymous No.12205965]

>>12205900
>E.G: an ambulance has a poor 120 horsepower motor. A wallstreet trader, soccer player, beauty queen or inheritard has a BMW SUV with 300 horsepower. That's just a retarded way to allocate the production.

Well, it's even more retarded to produce what's not in demand. Those luxury vehicles aren't made in large amounts so there's no huge "misappropriation" of production.

[Anonymous No.12205967]

>>12205862
It's possible to manage a business while giving the majority of the profits back to the state that provides for you, your employees, and your customers.

Those brilliant founder-CEO figures of myth, all four of them, will simply have to suffer only being well-compensated inner party members.

[Anonymous No.12205993]

>>12205967
Why does the communist boogeyman have to be a CEO? What about smaller businesses?

If we go by your system, if the majority of profits have to go back to the state, then it's only fair if the state would have to take an equal share of the risk, meaning if the company fails, everyone who benefited from the profit-sharing would have take on the liabilities.

[Anonymous No.12206007]

>>12205898
Class mobility is a lie. Capital doesn't move between classes.

The best salary a working man in the West can reasonably hope for is that of a lawyer or highly skilled surgeon. And that salary by itself isn't enough for one to be truly "rich", wealth generation requires capital, which is forever out of reach for 99% of humanity.

[Anonymous No.12206011]

>>12205959
I should teach you the tendency of the rate of profit to fall. You should teach yourself with a search engine.

In short, the more efficient the production is, the price for a particular item decrease, then the competitor create a more efficient production line, the price decrease again etc...

A new item can come out to replace the older one, but globally, the efficiency of production lines, and distribution, increase with time. It increase to a point were no more profit can be made.

[Anonymous No.12206029]

>>12206007
nigga what are you talking about if you would have bought LINK for $200,000 a year and hree months ago and sold two months later you would have made $800,000

[Anonymous No.12206034]

>>12205993
That's exactly how communism works, though? The state takes profits and eats losses.

Note that in capitalism, the state eats the losses (but only for the wealthy) but never touches profit (but only for the wealthy) - capitalism is a system where the poor subsidize the rich, and not a meritocracy

[Anonymous No.12206057]

>>12206011
The other reason companies need to be more efficient is because the resources needed for manufacturing are becoming scarcer or more difficult to procure, not necessarily because of competition. No more profit can be made because the resources no longer exist.

[Anonymous No.12206080]

>>12206034
No, communism also directs businesses on what to do, sort of like the McDonalds corporation directing its franchises on what recipes to use, so the relationship is very unequal.

The problem comes when the state makes very bad decisions. It suffers no consequences but the businesses would fail and people lose their jobs or starve to death.

[gommie faggot !!ybZU7IbD8fv No.12206096]

>>12205927
The postal service is currently forced to have worse prices because congress forces them to pay the retirement of all their employees in full in advance in a way no other company is required too. Services like Amtrak, FDIC, SIPC, however, go to show how government corporations can provide good services and low cost.

[Anonymous No.12206144]

>>12195091
>Marx
>Foster
>Mann

[Anonymous No.12206151]

>>12206007
Capital has never been more available to the lower rungs of society than today. Your average retard in the west can borrow 5 or 6 figure sums in US dollars of capital, it's up to them whether they choose spend it on stupid shit like cars, personal houses and meme education, or on profitable ventures, equipment, tools and income producing assets.

>>12206011
Then a new product is created that cant utilize old production lines and distribution, and the whole process starts over again (for example, CRT television innovation replaced with LCD television technology that has a near-wholly unrelated production network). Lying repeatedly wont make your garbage not garbage. Nevermind the fact that this is also the process by which consumer goods become cheap and widely available to the poorest among us. If your theory was true, then why have global wages tripled in the last 20 years?

[Anonymous No.12206164]

>>12195622
kek

[Anonymous No.12206194]

>>12206151
Cool.

I have 100K dollars. Tell me how to 100x that so I can have 7 million (after tax)

Just one 100x, please? Prove class mobility is real other than scoffing and saying we should all just work harder.

[Anonymous No.12206225]

>>12206194
All in on chainlink

[gommie faggot !!ybZU7IbD8fv No.12206296]

>>12206225
lol

[Anonymous No.12206328]

>>12206194
>I can only move up the ladder by winning the lottery
Pathetic and nigger-tier logic. Wealth is overwhelmingly generated through decade length efforts. Even sportsball athletes who make it big in their early 20's started training when they were pre-teens. Every silicon valley billionaire 20 something started seriously coding in middle school, entirely of their own motivation. The proof of this is that the vast majority of lottery winners end up broke, because they dont know what discipline it takes to generate that kind of wealth to begin with. Government is filled to the brim with plebs who cant generate wealth, who are then given the reigns of billions of dollars of other peoples money. People like you.

[Anonymous No.12206438]

Lol @ /pol/'s sweaty social pariahs larping as if they're members of the neoliberal economic élite

[Anonymous No.12206592]

lol all these cucks think that Das Kapital is a liberal mind control device and not literally Advanced Economics 101.

[Anonymous No.12207069]

>>12206096
It was going downhill before then. USPS ignored market conditions and continued with its doomed business model.

[Anonymous No.12207098]

>>12195111
>he reads at talking speed