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11417354 No.11417354 [Reply] [Original]

Should we abolish the minimum wage?

>> No.11417377

>>11417354
Only people who disagree are on minimum wage, and they're not really people, so yes

>> No.11417405

Anything of this sort coming from Hayek triggers me hard. Total trophy wife of multi Billionaire. Fuuuuuuuuk her.

Min wage fucks it up ironically for those its susposed to help as jobs are lost at the fringes of being economically productive. That isnt gonna stop no rich liberal fuckheads virtue signalling this shit though and convincing the dumb and poor they should fight for it.

>> No.11417640
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11417640

>>11417377
>if you are at the bottom of the ponzi capitalist scheme it means you are not human
Good goy

>> No.11417764
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11417764

>>11417354
Voting right is like opening a long position.
Voting left is like opening a sell position on x100 leverage and hoping it works for you in the short term.

>> No.11417878

>>11417405
yea of course an uber rich actress who married into wealth thinks regular people are worthless. we need to abolish the upper class

>> No.11417923

No

>> No.11417927

Yes we should, but this dumb bitch who married into money isn't who people should be listening to for policy decisions.

But hey she has a gash and tits right? I predict she will overtake Friedman's popularity by the end of the month.

>> No.11417929

>>11417377

fpbp

>> No.11418026

>>11417354
no, because it would improve the lives of poor people

>> No.11418030

>>11418026
Minimum wage disenfranchises poor people

>> No.11418036

>>11417405
You don’t really think She said this do you?

>> No.11418052

>>11417405
>>11417878
>hayek
>f.a. hayek
please tell me you fucktards are kidding

>> No.11418139
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11418139

Only neo-boomers are against minimum wage.
Supply and demand models point to welfare and employment losses from minimum wages. However, if the labor market is not perfectly competitive, minimum wages can increase the efficiency of the market.

>> No.11418152

>>11417354
Yes with a maximum wage of 30 dollars an hour

>> No.11418198

no, that is a stupid idea. if you're one of those "freer the market, freer the people" types you're a fucking retard

lots of low-skill workers would get paid less than they at least deserve. also cutting taxes leads to more national debt you fucking idiots, take a U.S. history lesson

>> No.11418280

>>11418139
Regardless, it shouldn't be raised at a national level.

>> No.11418311

>>11417354
Milton.F once had a bit about how minimum wage is pretty racist.
You take a low IQ, highschool dropout (which is heavily over represented by a particular race) and see how much value he can add to an enterprise. 9/10 times the value he adds is less than minimum wage and so no one will hire him.
You get rid of minimum wage and all of the sudden he can be paid in line with his value and gain skills and knowledge, thus increasing his earning potential. With minimum wage you doom a whole group of people to permanent well-fare dependence.

>> No.11418319

>>11417354
Actually yes, it would help the biggest fucktards to get a job.

>> No.11418362

>>11418311
Someone working full-time should make enough to buy the basic things for every day life, he shouldn't be living like a third worlder and drinking his own piss to survive.

>> No.11418375

>>11417354
No, it will only encourage businesses to lobby even harder for a flood of unskilled immigrants to come in so they can legally pay them pennies on the dollar.

>> No.11418385

>>11417354
Does this bitch listen to herself when she blabbers?

>> No.11418390

>>11418362
If there were no minimum wage, basic things in life would cost also less.

>> No.11418404

>>11418362
He should make exactly as much as he deserves, commie freak.

>> No.11418422
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11418422

>>11418139
>that pseudo intellectual guy
>acts smarter than he is
>jobless, no gf.
Yes you're a cuck

>> No.11419106
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11419106

Who cares?
We talk about minimum wage all too often, but what about a maximum wage?

>> No.11419125

>>11417354
There’s a minimum wage? Wtf

>> No.11419150

>>11419106
>attempting to limit earning capacity
>disincentivizing people from working hard

you're a real moron

>> No.11419184

>>11418311
>You get rid of minimum wage and all of the sudden he can be paid in line with his value and gain skills and knowledge,

...What skills? What knowledge? He's a dropout, anon. A DROPOUT. Have you ever applied for a job? People are expecting 3+ years experience for an entry level job. If people with degrees are having a hard time finding a job, what makes you think a DROPOUT would have an easy time strolling into one?

In any case, he can go learn a trade like plumbing and once he becomes certified, minimum wage won't have any effect on him because his skills are far more valuable than minimum wage and everyone knows it.

>> No.11419358

>>11419184
Do you know why companies have unreasonable expectations for even entry-level positions?

Government regulation. Minimum wage is a part of this.

The more expensive it gets to hire someone, the less a company is willing to take a chance on someone because it becomes riskier.

If it was cheaper to employ people, literally strolling into a store and walking out with a job wouldn't be too far-fetched. Hell it used to be commonplace a few decades ago.

>> No.11419361

>>11417354
No

>> No.11419377

>>11419150
It's called "stop CEOS from fucking over 99% of the human race". No one on earth needs yachts with yachts in them.

>> No.11419692

>>11419184
>100%sweetie.jpg
Oh man you must be really slow. You basically agree with him without realizing it.

If they could pay you half minimum wage they wouldnt care so much if you have experience thus allowing you to gain experience and maybe apply for a better position later.

>> No.11419808

>>11417354
>>11417377
>>11417764
Oy vey, yes please. And while we're at it we should also make it illegal for wagie goyim to own property. You have to provide proof of your Hebrew heritage first.

>> No.11419855

>>11418390
> If there were no minimum wage, basic things in life would cost also less

just like if we lower taxes on corporations then they'll repatriate? getting rid of minimum wage in an effort to lower costs of goods is giving the rich all of the benefit on the promise that they'll give the poor their cut later. that is to say, it's a trick to benefit the rich. good goy.

>>11419106
derailing? in my /biz/?

>>11419358
> why companies have unreasonable expectations for even entry-level positions? Government regulation.
proof? link? from what i've seen companies have unreasonable expectations because they can get away with it. it started happening in the great recession when everyone lost their jobs and the employers suddenly had all the power.

>> No.11419915

>>11417354
>Should we abolish the minimum wage?
no minimum wage should be set to a level where 95% makes more anyways. it stops extreme cases of predation (like employing retarded people for $1 an hour) being passed off as legal, but won't have a significant effect on the market mechanism for the population at large.

>> No.11419948

>>11419692

This is why we have “unpaid internships” now, which can only be worked by young people from affluent families who can work for free to get skills on their paremts’ dime. Minimum wage literally has fuck all to do with people not getting hired to be “trained,” when you can expect the worker to borrow money to educate himself and then work for you for free for months to “learn” and do low level tasks. Companies are always going to do what’s cheapest for them, minimum wage or not.

>> No.11419996

>>11418311

Uncle Milty’s Negative Income Tax was one of the most brilliant ideas ever created to fix these problems, provide a social safety net, shrink the government, and still incentivize work. Which is exactly why no one has ever talked about it. Instead we fight over failed ideas on both the left and right to keep us divided between feuding classes of slaves and masters

>> No.11420062

>>11417354
No, we should raise it.

As things currently stand the government is forced to subsidize massively profitable businesses because they can and will fuck over everyone and everything to the letter of the law.

And before someone says that increasing the minimum wage would cause inflation (retarded) or would increase the cost of basic necessities (slightly less retarded): the cost of necessities would only adjust upwards if the demand increased, and increasing the minimum wage does not increase demand for necessities. People who can't afford necessities do not just go "welp I guess I'll starve and not shit," they buy necessities with debt and welfare. So, rather than inflating the price of necessities, increasing the minimum wage would reduce consumer debt and reduce welfare dependence.

>Min wage fucks it up ironically for those its susposed to help as jobs are lost at the fringes of being economically productive
Assuming this is true (it's generally not, businesses with margins that tight are pretty hard to find in a globalized market), there are considerations you can make. For example, you can have a provision that a business is exempt from minimum wage laws or can provide a lower minimum wage if they only employ X number of people, only handle Y amount of cash per year, etc. That way you can stop megacorps like Amazon from stiffing their factory workers and training them to take welfare to supplement their wages without hurting Billy-Bob's four-man fishing shop.

>> No.11420082

>>11419996
problem with negative income tax is it incentivizes fraud on a massive scale where the employee and employer conspire to rip the state off by agreeing in a low salary and receiving other benefits to compensate off the books.

there is no perfect system. so long you try to redistribute wealth some fuckers will naturally take advantage of it and create inefficiency in the system and corruption sets in and the whole shitshow is a massive drag on the economy.

>> No.11420085

>>11419358
>Do you know why companies have unreasonable expectations for even entry-level positions?
because HR managers are some of the dumbest motherfuckers on the planet and H1B fraud is rampant?

>> No.11420597

>>11418139
Anon has no clue...

>> No.11420650
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11420650

>>11418422
>the cuck that thinks having a job and a plain jane gf means he isn't a cuck

>> No.11420654

>>11419184
lol there's tons of people being paid shit it means nothing

>> No.11420808

>>11419855
proof? you won't me to detail to you basic economic/business theory? if you can't put two and two together, look into history or even ask your parents about the job market when they were young, me explaining it to you isn't gonna do shit.

>> No.11420950

There is only one REAL minimum wage and that is ZERO.

When the state parasites says that you can't work for a wage equivalent to your productivity because that would be bellow what the "law" says they are basically banning you from working at all.

>> No.11420973

>>11420950
>bu-but muh bernie sanders

>> No.11420978

>>11420950
not low enough.
you should have to pay for the privilege of working for me.

>> No.11421000

>>11420950
>allow companies to pay ten cents as a legal minimum
>amazon pays its tens of thousands of min wage employees ten cents and hour and helps them sign up for every form of welfare possible
>the welfare system collapses even sooner and with it goes the purchasing power and survivability of a supermassive number of americans
Ideological stances are nice and all, but law calls for a pragmatist's approach.

>> No.11421028

>>11421000
if you're such a 'pragmatist' how come you don't realize that the whole point of reducing the minimum wage is to get people OFF welfare?

using big words doesn't mean you understand basic economics.

>> No.11421063

>>11421028
>the whole point of reducing the minimum wage is to get people OFF welfare?
You do realize that the largest employers in the nation are going to abuse minimum wage to the fullest extent, right? Amazon, McDonald's, etc; These are massive sectors of the American job market that do not and cannot have upward mobility for each and every worker, where the business can absolutely afford to pay them a living wage, but they won't unless they are forced to.

Keeping the minimum wage below a basic standard of living directly increases dependence on welfare. For fuck's sake the companies literally help their full-time employees sign up for food stamps. The government is effectively subsidizing these massively profitable businesses.

>> No.11421135

>>11421063
The problem with your argument is that you're coming from a perspective of 'corporations are inherently evil'.

Abolishing the minimum wage = reduced costs of production=more economic prosperity=more jobs created.

Do you really think that companies won't be competing with each other to attract workers by promising higher wages if the minimum wage is abolished? When demand starts increasing due to lower costs of production leading to lower prices?

This is BASIC economic theory. The very basics.

You've been made to believe that a minimum wage is actually helping the 'little guy' when in fact it does the exact opposite.

You think you can force an employer to pay a higher wage than you want by enforcing it through legislation? Companies are just going to hire as few human workers as possible then, while absolutely working them to the bone while pushing for automation in every possible area.

That's what you're seeing right now in the economy. Open your damn eyes.

>> No.11421158

>>11421063
The ONLY role a government has and should play is to ensure that a free market system is allowed to operate unhindered. In the case of abolishing a minimum wage, it means preventing companies from colluding with each other to keep wages low. That's it.

>> No.11421207

>>11421135
>The problem with your argument is that you're coming from a perspective of 'corporations are inherently evil'.
No. I'm coming from the perspective that "corporations are inherently driven by profit motive" which is fucking true.

>Do you really think that companies won't be competing with each other to attract workers by promising higher wages if the minimum wage is abolished?
Competing for "higher wages" when those "higher wages" are even lower than they currently are and even farther from a living wage helps precisely no one.

>Abolishing minimum wage = reduced cost of production
True.
>reduced costs of production = more economic prosperity
Oh hey look at these meaningless fucking weasel words. What you meant to say is more profit for the producers.
>more profit for producers = more jobs created
Absolutely fucking retarded. Increased demand drives job creation. THAT is basic economics. Trickle-down is retarded.

>>11421158
Oh, I see, you're a strict libertarian. I apologize, I didn't know I was arguing with someone who was brain-damaged.

>> No.11421271

>>11421207
If corporations are inherently driven by profit motive, which I agree with, what makes you think that corporations won't hire fewer people and invest more money into R&D towards automation if the costs of this R&D outweigh the costs of employing more actual people to do those tasks?

More profit for producers? Do you know that income = expenses in an economy, o' wise one? Do you realize that increased economic prosperity in a true free market means that everyone benefits?

How is increased demand not = more profit for producers = more jobs created, you stupid fuck? Why would an employer hire more people if the increased demand isn't bringing in more profits for them? Oh wait, we've arrived at communism.

I didn't realize I was arguing with a communist. Seriously, go get fucked. China, Cuba, the Soviet Union would like a word with you.

Economics don't give a shit about your SJW values faggot. If you don't abide by its laws, it'll punish you and continue to punish you until you learn.

>> No.11421318

>>11421271
>*if the costs of this R&D don't outweigh the costs of employing more actual people

>> No.11421411

>>11421271
>what makes you think that corporations won't hire fewer people and invest more money into R&D towards automation if the costs of this R&D outweigh the costs of employing more actual people to do those tasks?
That's already the case and is another issue entirely. Getting rid of minimum wage won't stop automation, literally nothing will, and that's an entirely unique economic position we'll find ourselves in in the future where we'll have to seriously consider a basic income.

In the meantime it's important to maintain the purchasing power of the public and do everything we can to prevent a debt crisis or a collapse of the welfare system as that would cause a complete collapse of the American economy.

>I didn't realize I was arguing with a communist
There is a happy medium between capitalism and socialism where business is private but regulated and specific verticals that don't function properly under profit motive (medicine, for example) are made public.

>How is increased demand not = more profit for producers = more jobs created, you stupid fuck?
You are the one arguing that job creation is based on supply instead of demand. That is what you're saying when you claim that lowering wages will increase jobs - you are saying to me that it is not demand that increases jobs but supply.

>> No.11421469

>>11421028
Lol

>> No.11421487

>>11421411
lol what a load of shit. you have no argument.

>> No.11421585
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11421585

>>11421487

>> No.11421627

>>11421487
Way to tell everyone he's right and you're wrong

>> No.11421653

>>11421000
Welfare state will colapse eventually, better sooner than later.

>> No.11421669

>>11421653
>Welfare state will colapse eventually
As things stand currently, yes.
>better sooner than later
Extremely no. An economic collapse helps no one.

>> No.11421697

>>11421627
go read his last post. can't argue with that.

>push for automation has nothing to do with cost savings due to expensive labour

its pointless..

>> No.11421704

>>11421063
this is very true and a huge problem wether we like it or not. Those who says its not. I have no words.

thankfuly i live in norway. where people have a decent living and decent minimum wage. even retards have fulltime jobs, that pays way way more than minimum wage in usa

>> No.11421728

>>11421135
maybe if only half the labor force was available.
not now

>> No.11421764

>>11421487
Were you born this way, or did you have a head injury?

>> No.11421781

>>11420082
>conspire to rip the state off
You say this like it's a bad thing

>> No.11421808

millennials aren't worth 15$/hr plus muh socialized healthcare

>> No.11421910

>>11420808
> if you can't put two and two together, look into history or even ask your parents about the job market when they were young, me explaining it to you isn't gonna do shit.

so basically, your feelings. cool.

>>11421135
> reduced costs of production=more economic prosperity

but we JUST did this with the tax cut and we're not seeing any prosperity other than for the very wealthy / corporations. wages are constant and the buying power of the dollar just keeps going down: https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/CUUR0000SA0R

> Companies are just going to hire as few human workers as possible then, while absolutely working them to the bone while pushing for automation in every possible area.

and they should. automation is the future, regardless of wage levels. the only way that getting rid of the minimum wage is good is if it coincides with lowering costs of living which we all know will not happen (the economics of real estate dictate this is impossible... even in places with rent control people are priced out all the time).

do you think that we should NOT automate? and just... hire more people for lower wages? and give away our competitive advantage while the rest of the world automates? just stupid. to think that there's any path forward other than automation is deluded.

>>11421271
either you are trolling or brainwashed. godspeed. if you have to call people communists just for disagreeing with you, something is wrong.

>> No.11421933

>>11421910
you're pretty much arguing for the sake of arguing aren't you. no one can be this retarded.

please go pick up a high school economics textbook.

oh if it makes you happy, consider yourself to have won this 'debate'. just go read that textbook real good.

>> No.11421943

>>11421933
>please go pick up a high school economics textbook.
Which page will tell me that supply drives job creation as you've been saying?

>> No.11422052

>>11421933
everyone is disagreeing with you because you're hilariously wrong, man. the things you're spouting are fake economics that remind me of the "faith and freedom" movement from the 50's and 60's where rich religious assholes funded brainwashing misinformation so that poor idiots would defend the rich and not know that they were shooting themselves in the foot.

i highly suggest you read "one nation under god" and get deprogrammed: https://www.amazon.com/One-Nation-Under-God-Corporate-ebook/dp/B00PWX7R56/ref=sr_1_1

>> No.11422109

>>11422052
disagree all you want. continue to shoot yourself in the foot pushing for more regulations.

i just want to get out of this system so i don't have to deal with you delusional idiots any more, so i don't really care either ways.

>> No.11422162

>>11422109
great, where would you go to get out of this system?

and what is "this system" to you anyways? neoliberal crony capitalism? if so, it sounds like you want to go full free market, so... south africa? maybe super rich corrupt parts of florida?

and no one is arguing for more legislation. most people on this board believe in minimum wage at the local level and disagree with raising it at the national level. people who are pushing to raise it at the national level are pandering idiots who don't get economics.

and lastly i'm curious... what do you do? how old are you?