/biz/ - Business & Finance

>>9951507

JUST FLIP BITCOIN SO WE CAN GET TO 50K ALREADY

MOM IS FUCKED IF YOU WANT I COME BACK LATER

>>9951518
Why is anyone betting against the man with all the power?

I'll sum it up.

>moons
>crashes to something so it catches up on bitcoin
>constant it's dead shitposting
>repeats until the flippening

pic related

>>9951543
FUCK YOUR MOTHER IF YOU WANT FUCK

>>9951507
??

Difficulty will adjust in 10 hours from now

kek the bcher spam attacks are a joke these days. the mempool cleared out in a couple hours.

>>9951550

Too many people bought bitcoin at >$10k so they are uninterested in hearing about why they're going to lose money

>>9951590

??
source
difficulty adjusted last night

>>9951591

>bcher spam attacks
>mempool

>let mempool stack up
>people start paying higher fees for priority
>bitmain clears out entire mempool way faster than everyone else can
>claims all fees
this is healthy how?

>>9951636
I always check here: https://bitcoinwisdom.com/bitcoin/difficulty

>>9951665

fork.lol says it increased last night. one of these sources is wrong

>>9951636
>>9951665

But I just notice that it says "Updated: 1:45 (22.4 hours ago)"

Shitty site

>>9951665
damn, looks like it's broken.
Bitcoinwisdom hasn't been updated properly for a few years. I use this side for some stuff:
https://fork.lol/pow/difficulty

>>9951665
that site even says it isn't up to date
18:45 (22.4 hours ago)

>>9951507
satoshi, vitalik, and Jihan have been charged for operating a pyramid scheme and are currently on the run. BTC and alts are bleeding and will hit 0 once this hits mainstream news sell now.

>>9951693
By who, lol?

Bitmain has firesaled their s9 inventory for ~90% discount from where they were 6 months ago. They already have s11s ready and mining, they are going to slowly push their competition out of business.

Heres my theory
>Don't release new asic
>difficulty inflates due to your own exclusive mining
>drive everyone else out of the market
>ditch the main chain
>can't hit the next adjustment without weeks of mining at a loss by everyone else, if at all, depending on how high it inflates
>switch to bch
I can't put my finger on it exactly but this feels like an attack on the chain by people with a hardware monopoly.
All I know is I am all in BCH, because this is completely out of my hands.

www.mymilkers.xyz

Don't get left behind biz we are launching in an hour

>Go to slip.gg
>Get 0.00007448BTC for free with the code "Mesper"
>Use a martingale
>???
>Profit

>>9951743
bitcoin dying would kill the whole market though

>>9951748
oh shit is this shrimp farm 2.0? i'll throw like .1 eth at it for fun lel

>>9951758
I'm sure they know that and have been selling since jan.

>>9951758
Too big to fail eh? Better petition the gov for some bitcoin bailouts

>>9951743
Here's the other hilarious part
>buttmain makes the next gen of miners
>drives out all profitability from previous gens
either
>A. Maliciously coup d'etat BTC
>B. Force everyone else to buy your new gen of miners, "securing" the "decentralization" of mining, despite that the chain has already been seriously inflated in difficulty thanks to your premining, making the hardware less efficient for everyone else
I'm all in bch because I know they have the whole crypto economy around their little finger but I don't like bitmains business tactics

>>9951773
this
if Bitcoin dying kills the market, they're shorting the market by not selling the next gen of ASICs to drain the profitability out and inflate the difficulty. It just depends next on whether they want to keep playing the game or if they've determined it's a good time to alpha strike

>>9951758
i say we should rip the bandaid off and just do it. let everyone re-coalesce around bch. market recovers within 6 months, gives everyone one last chance to buy the dip and make it

>>9951821
>let everyone re-coalesce around bch.

Or how about we let the Bitcoin brand die as a whole

>>9951827
The throne is ready.

>>9951550
>the man with all the power
>got cucked into accepting segwit against his own will
kek

>>9951743
kek it's fascinating to see how the bch shills evolve their tactics

>>9951743
>BagCoinHolders will actually believe this

>>9951821
>gives everyone one last chance to buy the dip and make it
This literally sum shitcoiners dreams: Wanting to get at the bottom of Bitcoin, even if throught a shitcoin. Sorry, will never happen.

>>9951763
Yeah it is except it's a tit farm

>>9951953
>bought ATH
>Still hopes bcore goes on a bullrun

>>9951977
I bought at $100 ish unlike all of you summerfags, I will never lose, only continue getting richer, I can afford holding during bear markets and still be on the green by huge margins, while you lose whatever little bitcoins you have on your shitcoin adventures.

>>9951926
>refuting literally nothing in the post
I'm not a shill, I'm a concerned citizen. this is not the time to be buying bitcoin bitcoin.

>>9951743
Satoshi is alive and will not let this happen.

>>9952177
How can Satoshi stop this?
tips: he can't

>>9952177
could you imagine if satoshi was a BCHer? and dumped his segwit tokens?

>>9952177
dubs of truth, but I can't see how Satoshi could prevent this. His computer was able to mine a million bitcoins, but his system has outgrown him

>>9952191
He is. remember when the fork airdropped equivalent numbers of BCH to BTC wallets?

god im so glad im all in bch too. i see both sides but i know who has the most power

>>9952177
Yes, the US government agencies that created BTC are alive and well you are correct.

Whether Jihan is biding his time or not, the fact is the Core elites can only blame themselves.

Imagine if companies like Blockstream focused their resources on actually building out competing ASIC factories to prevent a Jihan monopoly instead of goofing around on projects no one cares about like satellite nodes, focus on your fucking infrastructure first before you start experimenting.

Roger Ver was right, it's ALL about economics, a currency is used to conduct business and trade, not liberate people. Financial Liberation is just a side effect, there has to be a profit motive first.

>>9952216
people will see this as a dead end of PoW
switch to PoS based coins like ETH

This shit will end up killing bitcoin AND bitcoin cash. Eth and 0xBTC will survive through it though.

>>9952246
i apologize, the majority of my folio is in BCH and i have eth, eos, dcr as well. and no, i dont think pow will go away

>>9952246
Proof of work was fucked as soon as there was a monopoly on specialized hardware. PoW needs to die.

>>9952293
its called capitalism. if you can build a better product than go ahead.

>>9951507

>>9951758
bitcoin wouldn't die, corecucks would die and that would be a good thing for crypto in the long run

>>9952314

Bitconnect is capitalism too, doesn't mean it's a good thing lolz.

>>9951901
>he thinks this is over

jihan has more bitcoin and hashing power than all the corecucks combined, if you think he loses you're delusional

>>9952314
>not understanding monopolies
>not understanding barriers to entry
>not understanding simple fucking economics
if capitalism was always fair, we wouldnt need any regulation. As it turns out, firms don't like competition despite it being healthy and important.

>>9952382
If we had truly unregulated capitalism everything would eventually be controlled by one giant megacorporation.

OPERATION DRAGON SLAYER IS A GO

BITCOIN CASH IS THE REAL BITCOIN

>>9952389
>Implying we're not nearly there
Once Apple/Amazon/Google gets enough cash to buy one of the other, shit's going to get silly fast.

>>9952351
so america is one big ponzi scheme. hmmmmmmmmmmmm

>>9952409
Literally yes. All of America's greatest periods have been achieved through slavery (or worse) conditions for those actually doing the work.

>>9952389
yep. Oligopolies and monopolies are a result of human desire to have more despite it not being in the best interest of society. monopolies being able to determine their own prices creates a loss for society since the product is not finding a fair market value. free market has no barriers to entry and no monopolies

Open capitalism != Free market. you'd think /biz/ would understand the economy, but fucking no

>>9952382
oh so you want regulation in crypto? government intervention perhaps? hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

>>9951859

>>9952382
Remember the time where all the car manufacturers dismantled all of America's public transport so people would buy their cars?

Good times.

>>9952441
>non sequitur logic
no, I want proof of work to die so there won't be a monopoly on mining hardware. that, or for bitmain to actually have some competition, so they can't mine supreme profits while people who are mandated to use their old hardware are left struggling until the next gen is released (at lower efficiency thanks to difficulty inflation, due to bitmain).

but you're stupid, leave my thread

>>9952485
No one is forcing you to use PoW

>>9952485
any consensus algorithm can be gamed by either having more money, or hashing power, or something else, stop being a bitch

>>9952485
Dont worry you get a participation trophy too

i heard bitmain doesn't sell its btc though. is that true?

>>9952373
Jihan got KEKED. If he had any unilateral power segwit would have never happened idiot.

haha corecucks on suicide watch

>>9952454
For anyone not following
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_streetcar_conspiracy

>>9952498
They're forcing me to deal with a system that is controlled by PoW algorithms. you think im rich enough to mine btc? not even BTC miners are rich enough to mine btc, save for bitmain. and it affects the entire market.

>>9952508
>any consensus algorithm can be gamed, stop being a bitch
>2018
>being ignorant
>this system is broken, but another system might break too, so let's just leave it how it is

>>9951507
i told you niggers

>>9952577
>They're forcing me to deal with a system that is controlled by PoW algorithms.
No one is forcing you to do anything. You are free to be a nonparticipant or use coins with the algorithms you like. PoW may not be pefect buy it is better than one in which the only way to get coins is to purchase them from founders/whales.

Can someone find a single scenario where bitmain would come out ontop financially if they performed a 51% attack?

>>9952600
Bitmain has no interest in killing bitcoin intentionally, they would much prefer it die naturally

>>9952626
They better hope bch takes its place or else they lose billions in company revenue and private stock.

>>9952598
>You are free to be a nonparticipant or use coins with the algorithms you like.
I plan to. I just happen to be all in bch at the moment despite disagreeing with the algorithm and business tactics because I anticipate a malicious action based on recent events which will make a monopoly a lot of money.

>>9952600
Checked. I doubt a 51% attack is the intention. A chain death spiral is a more likely outcome. bitmain could maintain it's public image and give a triumphant "told ya so" despite orchestrating all of this.

Who's to say this crash hasnt been in part bitmain reducing it's BTC position in anticipation of a movement?

>>9952600
only if they made extremely large short positions. If you 51% combined with a double spend the address will be black listed by every exchange.

>>9952674
Even with the extremely large shorts what is that 50-75 million max? Their company brought in over 3 billion last year. They'd be throwing that away, most likely wouldn't get that money off exchange and would suicide by 2 bullets in the back of the head.

>>9952691
Also forget to mention their bare minimum tens of millions in asics would all be worthless.

>>9952660
You are seriously fucking retarded and Jihan is playing with you bagholders (assuming you aren't trolling). Jihan is smart enough to know the game theory includes the fact there is no such thing as crypto, only Bitcoin matters, there is no crypto after Bitcoin, it goes against it's own self-interest economically. It also goes against it's own self-preservation, since MP and co would deliver a guaranteed dead on his ass. Not smart.

>>9952660
You are seriously fucking retarded and Jihan is playing with you bagholders (assuming you aren't trolling). Jihan is smart enough to know the game theory includes the fact there is no such thing as crypto, only Bitcoin matters, there is no crypto after Bitcoin, it goes against it's own self-interest economically. It also goes against it's own self-preservation, since MP and co would deliver a guaranteed "accident" on his ass. Not smart.

>>9952691
They created their own backup plan if BTC were to fail. They created the "next best thing" and are now setting BTC up for failure. they don't need to actually attack the chain; they're just using their immense hashpower, hardware monopoly, and likely immense amounts of BTC to drive out other miners (inflated difficulty, reduced profitability due to lower price, and unfair hash efficiency advantage to not suffer the same market consequences as other firms) and doom the chain.

Their operations will be safe *if* BCH flips. Wu and Ver will be some of the richest men in history.

>>9952660
just want to say i unironically enjoy reading you destroy everyone else's arguments with impeccable logic, anon. may your shitcoins moon in the golden bullrun

>>9952737

Bitcoin has no long-term value for miners. He has no reason to love it if it wants to shut miners out with sidechain bullshit

>>9952746
Can see that all being very possible but I don't see how ver would have any part. He's been saying the exact same shit for 5+ years now. If he stuck with btc he would be a lying fraud.

>>9952707
See >>9952746
BCH uses the same algorithms, their ASIC market is secure.

>>9952750
Appreciated anon. someone has to post some quality on this fucking board, and milkers don't count (at least not this recent scamcoin milkers coordinated shill)

flippening seems inevitable but what is more reasonable is new stablecoins taking its place

>>9952793
>>9952820
Tether dies in this scenario too i'm guessing? Or can it just latch onto bch?

>>9952788
Roger Ver has a finger in every pie, so to speak. He owns Bitcoin.com, which is ironically a Cash advocate site. He is affiliated with Wu and
>forgive me for the wiki quote
In June 2016, Ver was appointed the chairman of the Cryptocurrency Advisory Board for MGT Capital Investments. MGT aims to improve cybersecurity and is headed by John McAfee.

Basically, you can see Ver is seriously in on all of this if you give it a cursory glance

>>9952759
Miners can do anything they want, including leaving. It would just mean miners left. Difficulty will make it interesting for someone else to take their place. Someone will always find profit. But if as a miner you are actively going against Bitcoin, you are fucking with very dangerous (and wealthy people), outcome not so good.

>>9952820

Lol, imagine if crypto was just stable coins? All the hype would die off immediately.

>>9952828
Flippening means the transactions will be extremely slow. Tether will get pumped but a lot of people will be stuck with btc if the chain freezes. They will probably go to bch short term but it makes the most sense to ditch the bitcoin dominance and feed into a trustworthy stablecoin like the dai or tusd or something that altcoins can have their own markets instead of depending on speculative bitcoin/bitcoin cash

>>9952868
It doesnt make sense that if a coin has a successful adopted product that it has to be traded against a depreciating asset like bitcoin

>>9952746
No, because the biggest whales in Bitcoin (bigger than Wu and Jihan combined) also own their share of BCH and they haven't even dumped it yet. If they wanted, they could dump, collapse the market and thus economically solve the fork forcing miners back into Bitcoin.

>>9952870
Sure, it makes total sense to ditch the only true inmutable store of value in favour of fucking tether.

You fucktards are going to lose all of your money in this, seriously.

>>9952936
I mean in the event that the hash power switches, people will try to move to BCH if that is his move. With large control of the network he can either stay on bitcoin and abandon bch or try something risky and switch

>>9952903
>bigger than wu and jihan combined
what did he mean by this

>>9952982
Everyone who was a bitcoin whale last year got bitcoin cash too

>>9952903
>the biggest whales in Bitcoin (bigger than Wu and Jihan combined)
first of all, name one. Second, if bch is going to flip, the market will stabilize and their portfolio will be about the same value.
>dumping
>"economically solving the fork"
no, dumping will not solve anything. bch gets a difficulty adjustment every block and has bitmains efficient hashpower behind it. nobody is "forcing" them anywhere. They are the heavyweights in a lightweight mining market thanks to a hardware advantage. As of right now, if anything could force them to stop mining, it would have been "all current gen miners are not mining at a profit", like everyone else. We don't know what the next gen miner is capable of so we don't know what "revenue per watt" (or whatever the appropriate function here is..) BTC would need to hit for them to not mine at a profit. But for (nearly?) everyone else that line has already passed

>>9952903
>implying any real whales support core

>>9951901
hah, Jihan is on another level playing 40D cryptographic chess. He never intended to go through with 2X, and gave up Segwit on BTC as a gambit, because now BCH is positioned to checkmate.

Regardless what is the endgame for BCH or BTC. Just a trading asset? Because it’s not a good store of value if it’s just going to be barted weekly. Even futures got shat on

>>9952903
>bigger than Wu and Jihan combined
what is Wu and Jihan's full names?

It discourages growth, adoption, and innovation if market makers are going to shit on every other coin except bitcoin. Are there going to be separate markets and what kind of regulations?

Keeping in mind that we have global crisis right around the corner, basically all this means Jihan is going to be next imperator of the world if everything will switch to crypto? What will happen if someone will decide to assassinate him?

Hes a nice guy. He even says in his talks that coins should be securities so the market can expand

>>9953110
Jihan and Wu
Chinese names are notoriously unoriginal

Who wants to use a chink coin anyway?????? Not me

>btc hashrate is really really high compared to bch right now
why?
the only people who can afford to mine profitably are taking advantage of exorbitant fees
mmmm, miner accumulation.

>>9953117
implying he cant afford the best security in the world

>>9953117

im sure he has a killswitch on his wallets or some shit

>>9952851
What do you think about Vitalik's involvement.
Ver is in on a lot, including shit connected to Sibler (or however you spell that last name), which is actually everything in cryptoworld.
But Vitalik is connected as well and in on it with Ver.
I'm asking, because I was expecting the flippening for 2 months now(it took me a while I know) based on my quick run of "who is who" in crypto, but I'm torn between BCH and ETH.
I kind of think that ETH could be easier, although I didn't take Bitman into consideration before.
I'm still buying the dip now, bought all the BTC I had fiat for, now it's time for my other purchases.
What are your thoughts?

>>9952346
"Hey Steve, I know the Crypto thing looks like it's dead. I-I know Bitcoin is worth almost 0 now but listen, there is a better coin called Bitcoin CASH which puts you in debt by just holding it, it will be worth thousands."
That's what it will look like if BTC dies you faggot, NO coin would survive.

>>9951543
Topkek

>>9953209
I feel as though vitalik is an independent entity. He probably has some position in BCH and has open communication with other big players in crypto, but I suspect he's doing his own thing and not involved with Bitmain's conspirator bullshit. That said, I've been wrong before.
>Congrats on this. Seriously.

>I was expecting the flippening for 2 months now(it took me a while I know)
It's a ticking time bomb. Last major pump came with only a chart ramp as warning, with subsequently a sudden influx of chain congesting transactions for BTC. I've been hodling for a while too. This is the biggest indicator of movement we have seen in some time; nearly 10% fees in recent blocks, despite the mempool not being nearly as congested as it has been.

>thoughts on other purchases
RLC. It actually has profitable utility (it saves massive amounts of rendering time, and that's only one use), mainnet just launched, and it's been oversold. same supply as ETH, with a hard cap. currently under a dollar. its a good buy from both a chart perspective and a fundamentals perspective. but that's just me.

>>9952746

problem is, if BTC death spirals then crypto itself is dead. nobody is going to trust ANY coin if it fails. People won't be able to look at the situation and say "BCH solves the problems BTC has and has a dynamic difficulty adjustment so this death spiral can't happen here". 99.9% of people don't get that. They just see the most trusted thing in the sector failed spectacularly and get as far away as possible.

I think Bitmain is happy mining both chains. They make money on both. Only reason they would kill one in favor of the other is if they thing that would make them more money in the long run. They would have to believe the value of BCH after a BTC death spiral would be higher than the combined values of BTC/BCH left alone into the future.

Sure they prefer BCH's scaling plans but ultimately it is about money and they make a ton of money off of core. They would have to be very threatened by 2nd layer solutions and be extremely bullish on the future of BCH to even consider an attack on BTC.

If they were to instigate a death spiral I don't think it would be during the current climate. the whole industry is so weak. it would have to be during a period positive sentiment with BCH already gaining significant natural traction.

(I hold a lot of BCH personally. I hold core too)

>>9952233
Double dubs speak truth

>>9953389
They already think bitcoin is dying slowly after seeing it bubble

Can someone give a rational explanation, absent emotion, why people give a fuck about a hardware manufacturing company that could easily be replaced, has many competitors, and the number is constantly growing, when their trend is toward producing commodity hardware that transmutes energy into proof of work which secures the blockchain, while almost everybody appears to not give the slightest fuck about the conflicts of interest in the core dev team that constitute over 95% of the nodes in BTC that by their own admission "secure the network" ?
This seems like focusing on the McDonalds on the corner as the root of all evil, instead of the department of defense running black ops in foreign nations and rigging elections to stay in power. I don't understand why people are ok with this situation at all.
Is this entire sector really that full of nonsensical astroturf that people don't understand this is a problem?

>>9953389
BTC only death spirals if the market moves it fast enough to make that happen, meaning the market has already accepted its inevitable. The market is not then going to be surprised by a situation it provoked, even if random fuckwits that don't understand it and haven't been kept abreast of this month old very simple fact are shocked and horrified by it.

>>9953198

of course BTC hashrate it higher brainlets. do you not understand this at all?

hashrate is purely a function of the value of the network. BTC and BCH are both SHA256 which means the exact same machines mine both chains. Hash power is split up between the two chains so that a $/hash equilibrium is maintained. If BTC price pumps on moment then it will become more profitable to mine, some hash power will divert away from BCH over to BTC until again the $/hash yield is the same between the two chains.

right now the BTC network is worth about 7.5x as much as the BCH network. This means the hashrate on the BTC network is 7.5 times higher right now than the hashrate on the BCH network.

>>9953449
Because people know this and want BCH to flip BTC

https://steemit.com/bitcoin/@ashr/btc-death-spiral-don-t-buy-the-fud

comment this sirs

>>9953449

Anyone who wants bcore to succeed over BCH is either a shill or new money

>>9953321
>>RLC
Yep on it already!
Agreed with the rest and thank you for in depth response.
>>Vitalik is an independent entity
He is an advisor for Augur and if you do some research is on other projects that Ver is invested in, or involved with.
I'm not saying that it means that ETH will be the king of flippening (as Ver definitely has more connections) but, shit what if?
I know that to a large extent It's just an exercise in discussing "what if's" and I ultimately think that I should take the positions in BCH and ETH to hedge it but it would be interesting to see if any of this is right(time will tell, and soon-ish)
My previous theory included a pump to 40k before the flippening, but it looks like I will have to change that lol

>>Last major pump came with only a chart ramp as warning
To me (as I wasn't following what was happening on the chain) it felt like March was a trial period for what happened in April-May, with April being the month of pumping alts(with Tether is my assumption)
And yes, I've been wrong as well, sometimes catastrophically, in this market.
But when shit is as manipulated as our tiny market, it's very easy to be wrong anon.
We can only guess and maybe pick up some crumbs that they throw us.
And some people (cough*me*cough) love conspiracy theories of this market lol

>>9953433

It has bubbled many times before. Price right now is irrelevant desu on long enough time scales. Decentralized, uncensorable, p2p currency is out of the bag. It has a clear utility and demand and will continue to grow.

saying it is dying is like saying the internet was dying after the dot com bubble. certain coins themselves may die but as a concept cryptocurrency is here to stay.

>>9952965
Jihan will never try to "flip" Bitcoin with any shitcoin, for his own well beign, that's all that there is to it. There's no point in having a lot of money if you are dead.

>>9953389
The lack of confidence in BTC or its ability to survive with subsequent use of ETH pairs on exchanges that really grew substantially, started after the "organic" run to 20k.
Ever since January and even more now, I keep hearing
>>I wish BTC will die
from more and more people.
And the newfags in the market keep repeating this.
I think you are right in that BTC can't die now or the market as a whole fails, but what if BTC will just get outpriced there by BCH or ETH?
Let's say that BTC stays stable-ish @around 7 k, but ETH(or BCH) keeps going up?
Then that transition would happen "naturally".
Just a possibility, but if done smartly, could happen imo

>>9953623
you will never be able to prove it was him

>>9953471

we aren't talking about a market induced death spiral here. BTC would have to dip absurdly low for the market to cause a spiral and even then Bitmain would mine at a heavy loss for a long time in order to not take a total loss on the massive amounts of BTC they hold. even if it went into the hundreds and almost everyone stopped mining Bitmain would limp it along to the next downward difficulty adjustment.

You guys also realize the devs in concert with the miners could fork the chain and add a dynamic difficulty adjustment to BTC if it was really looking bad.

>>9953542
> ashr (49) in bitcoin • 10 months ago
> BCH is designed with dynamic difficulty using a conditional Emergency Difficulty Adjustment (EDA). EDA allows adjustment for fluctuating hash power and non conforming block times.
This has nothing to do with the known situation with the present BCH DAA which will definitely kill BTC if the market moves fast enough towards BCH.

>>9951507
Cashies still on about the flippening huh. Fags

>>9953671
> we aren't talking about a market induced death spiral here
There isn't any other kind of death spiral. As long as the market keeps BTC propped up, miners will continue to cynically mine it for profit despite thinking it's shit.

>>9953641

that would be cool if BCH just constantly started gaining sats against BTC. That would be my ideal scenario. BCH obviously has the much better backers and plans for the future.

>>9953691
I'm not a cashie in any shape or form. But shut is happening and it's not only about the hashrate or the BCH. It's about the fact that rules have changed and it's obvious something is going on.
Or do you think that this year (starting with the 20k run) is like the other years?
I don't remember BTC chart looking like a shitcoin chart. Not as bad, ever.
I mean the manipulation in this market is nothing new, it was following a predictable pattern up to this year. Now, it feels like the rules have changed.
And I am probably wrong as to my prediction what will happen. But still stand on the position that something bigger than normal is happening.

>>9953611
Bitcoin is only one of those things and thats their impression of bitcoin, the face of cryptocurrency, even though you are right that it does not represent cryptocurrency. Yes it has bubbled before but i question the validity of a peak valuation of 300b. I want eth to succeed but there are many new mainnets out there now and I haven’t done enough research to compare them to eth now and eth in the future with its scaling solutions

>>9953712
>>BCH obviously has the much better backers and plans for the future.
Here we definitely don't agree.
I'm not a fan of what Ver is doing, nor am I fan of BCH.
That doesn't prevent me from seeing that something is up.

>>9953623
I don’t understand so what was the point of forking BCH? Cash grab or what because he should already be dead with the power he has

>>9953670
His hashrate moving from A to B would be obvious given his basically monopoly status. Miners can also identify themselves as non attackers by signaling something in the blocks just as they identified themselves as 2x supporters, they can add any message they want. The community will demand something like that if Bitcoin is under attack to clear who is and isn't pushing a so called chain death scenario and anyone not positioning themselves in favour of Bitcoin (where the real whales reside) are asking to suffer from an unfortunate accident. Since for a flippening to take place coins must share same algo, hashrate doesn't just lowers and disappears, it moved from A to B so it's easy to tell what's happening.

>>9953796
BCH is ok, just another fork, it's a non issue, as long as they aren't stupid enough to want to put up a fight to be Bitcoin beyond shitposting on reddit.

>>9953671
It depends on their intentions. If they intend to flip they would be selling and transitioning to make up higher profits. Its not just mining but they make money from selling ASICs too. They can fork the chain but then they’ll have to compete with bch

>>9953702

OP was talking about a spiral induced by Bitmain using secret high powered ASICs. In this hypothetical they currently own the vast majority of all hash power. They point all of their machines at BTC pushing the difficulty as high as they possibly can. Immediately after the difficulty adjustment they pull all of their hash power. Hashrate plummets to 5-10% of what it was. Block times increase from 10 minutes to 2 hours. If the remaining miners are close to breakeven after the adjustment now they would have to hope that the price doesn't drop between now and the next adjustment despite the negative affects the loss of hashrate is having on the chain (longer block times, increased fees). Most likely the price plummets due to the dysfunctional chain and the remaining miners have to drop out. Unlike Bitmain they don't have huge reserves to push through a period like this mining at a loss. Also, even if they do mine at a loss and get to the next adjustment where the difficulty goes way back down and they are profitable again; there is no light at the end of the tunnel because Bitmain will just jump right back in after the difficulty drops and swoop up all that money through dominating the hashpool.

>>9953641
>And the newfags in the market keep repeating this.
Newfags have no money.

Even if theres no flippening, bitcoin has many contradictions to its use case. It says its decentralized but its brought up to be centralized. It says its anonymous but its not completely true otherwise we wouldnt have coins intended specifically for privacy. We also have to consider politics and banks unfortunately as who wants to use it it people believe its chinese controlled (xrp ceo) or whale dominated

>>9953389
>If they were to instigate a death spiral I don't think it would be during the current climate. the whole industry is so weak.

I feel the opposite of you, my instinct tells me that in a time of weakness is the best time. But I don't have an argument for it, so it has to come down to gut feeling.

>>9953875
Yeah, I get that, but even *if* this was what they were planning, it would still make sense for them to simultaneously time it with a market attack. They pull all their hashpower and push it to BCH, and at the same time dump all their BTC holdings and pump BCH. So not only does BTC die horribly, but they minimise their exposure to it, simultaneously maximising their exposure to the mooning of BCH, etc.
It wouldn't make sense for them to *just* do the hashpower pump and dump without following up on the market side.

>>9953785

so you support idiots like Luke JR? you agree with their non-mining node propaganda and blocksize limitations? Of all networks BTC has a large enough valuation (and therefore large enough block reward) to afford miners expensive hardware and large bandwith in order to process big blocks and increase throughput (thus further increasing the value of the network; ad infinitum)

The core team is literally just pissed they weren't early adopters and hold almost no BTC. Luke JR was literally begging for donations on reddit a year or two ago. But they still want to get paid for their work and make money on all of this. Since they don't participate in the primary financial incentive systems of the network (mining and speculation/investment) they have made efforts to divert value. They are looking to divert tx fees from the main chain over to the 2nd layer systems that they control. This is why the go through so much effort to maintain a senseless 1mb cap. It is so transparent I don't understand how so many brainlets can't see it.

Trust people whose investments align with your own. Simple as that.

>muh bitmain
you faggots realize as soon as bitmain jumps ship there are countless Russian and Japanese mining farms waiting to take their place?

>>9953946

yea true a combined attack would be optimal

Great discussion guys. Really good thread, hardly any shit flinging, mostly good honest debate. Hate to jinx it but have to say.

>>9953977
1%/2% of the pools while china has 81% and czech has 10%

>>9954010
You mean a bch conspiracy theorist circle jerk?

>>9953946
Yeah, I get that, but even *if* this was what they were planning, it would still make sense for them to simultaneously time it with a market attack.
Completely agreed, in fact I mention the possibility in >>9952660. using their liquid btc to further tank profitability for other miners (and simultaneously exit their BTC position) would be ideal.

>>9951559
Exept the pic shows how doghit it really is, Holy fucking shit

>>9954066
They are 2 chains that compete for the same thing

>>9954066
if you read the thread you'd know that there's discussion about all sorts of technical aspects of bitcoin (and proof of work) despite the overarching theme being bitmain and their hardware/mining monopoly. all of them are important discussions, though

>>9954088
I missed it at first too, but the black lines demonstrate a consistently increasing floor over time since its inception in the btc pairing

My view:
Bitcoin will be fine
There may be a need for a hardfork
Looking for places where to short Bitcoin is smarter than looking for places where to go long at least in the medium term
If Bitcoin dies you all can fight among yourselves for whatever remains

>>9951507
What does mining have to do with the flippening? It has nothing to do with the price or the adoption rate.

>>9953977
They don't have the hashpower that bitmain does and with the difficulty so high it would take longer than 10 min to find blocks and they would have to wait over 2 weeks for the difficulty readjustment.

>>9954201
Have you read the whitepaper

>>9954208
I dont even know what coin this is. BCH?

>>9954201
Id say DYOR but just read the thread. We literally cant spoonfeed you any harder

>the last BTC block had almost 20% transaction fees
sweet jesus, what's happening?

>>9954160
No.
Look, "BTC will be fine" is like saying you've got this bookkeeper and he's awesome, super efficient and totally immune to corruption, because he's protected from any kind of coercion by an enormous apparatus of defensive measures such that attacking him would cost hundreds of millions of dollars, and he'd just be retrieved by his protectors anyway even if you went to all that effort. He's not necessarily going to be fine once you remove that hundreds of millions of dollars worth of protection, it's a well known and demonstrated fact that in other situations with less protection, these bookkeepers are attacked quite frequently.
If BTC hard forks away from its current protection situation, its future is uncertain at best, trending towards doomed given the payoff on a successful attack.
The *reason* BTC is fine is because of its massive protection from miners, take that away and it's just another shitcoin from the perspective of an adversary.

>>9954273
to make it clearer
>20% of the last block's reward was transaction fees, over the BTC reward
fees are increasing massively.

>>9953961
Perhaps you don't know how Bitcoin works.

>Lets all just run SPV nodes except (((Corporations)))

-You can put invalid transactions into a block and still create a valid block header.

-If the network is controlled by 10 FULL-nodes (it could be 10000000 nodes, useless if ran by 10 factions, which is the best case scenario end goal of "infinite blocksize" approaches, admittedly so by Ver and Craig), you only need half of them to ignore/approve invalid transactions so long as the header is valid.

This is why validating the transactions matter from a network perspective, and why you need a large decentralized network of nodes which are run by independent parties. It doesn’t matter from my grandmas perspective and that’s fine, but we aren’t talking about my grandma. We’re talking about ensuring the network of working and actively participating nodes grows, not shrinks.

Notice how the solution is to “find a good peer” or “upgrade your hardware”? Good peers shouldn’t be the bottleneck. Hardware shouldn’t be either. When all of your peers are hosed up by so many others leeching from them (because the good peers are the ones doing the real work), you create a network of masters and slaves that gradually trend towards only one master and all slaves. It’s the definition of centralizing. Unregulated blocks centralize networks. Large (but capped) blocks are only marginally better, but set a precedent for an ever increasing block size, which is equally as bad because it sets a precedent of increasing the size “in times of need”, which mirrors the results of unregulated blocksizes. This is why we won’t budge on the Bitcoin blocksize.

>>9952314
There is a better product and its called proof of stake.

>>9953832
>...and here's our daughter's room, she's been playing this bitcorn game a lot lately

BITCOIN WILL DIE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ALL COREKEKS WILL BE LEFT HOLDING BAGS!

>>9954345
Corecucks*

>>9951507
Everything is coming down.
Not just coins either.
EVERY THING

Look at interbank lending lately.

>>9953561
I want neither to succeed. Both are fucking shit.


What's the point of doing any of this shit when 1 chink company controls the means of production and distribution of the asics, as well as fucking having free hydro power subsidized by daddychink government.


I love this board because I get to demask chink sockpuppets, of which this thread is entirely consisted of.


Decentralized


MY

ASS

http://news.8btc.com/after-peter-todd-founders-of-bitmain-and-btc-top-also-criticize-on-lightning-network

BTC.TOP has connections to bitmain. In the last 24 hours, BTC.TOP has gotten 12% of blocks to Antpool's 16% and btc.com's 22%.

If somehow BTC.TOP is actually connected to bitmain, they are sitting at 52% total hashpower amongst three pools. Food for thought.

>>9954420
>I love this board
>literally redbit spacing
yeesh

>>9954437
oops, didn't properly read my source.
https://www.ccn.com/bitcoin-market-needs-big-blocks-says-founder-btc-top-mining-pool/
only speculates that the hashpower comes from bitmain although the claim is that there is none.

>>9954420
I'll go further and refuse to buy into tron vechain icx or any of those oriental cash grabs. I don't care if I go sideways for a year or more - I'm holding coins/tokens I believe in AE, Streamr, XLM etc..

>>9954446
I do it to get more attention, it only makes sense. I still know how to alt right arrow.

>see

Where do u guys see bch in a year or two? Deciding if i want to invest heavy

>>9954282
To me he is the bookkeeper. I don't mean it as in it can't die, just that if he dies I'm not going to be searching for whatever bookkeeper can get things done. I don't know how to put it, I'm not all in crypto.
> its future is uncertain at best
Completely agreed, it's a may, it would be very interesting to see how it develops and it would probably bring the foulest dishonest play.

>>9954498
good question. where does anyone see the cryptocurrency market in a year or two?
the answer is, no fucking idea. this sector is too dramatic and developing far too quickly to make a prediction that far ahead.

>>9954467
>>9954467
good choice but streamr sounds like some youtube knockoff. If your gonna invest in one of those you might as well look into lbry which already has a working decentralized youtube (they even got john cleese to post videos) and imgur replacement (spee.ch).

All of those working products and a team with fucking MIT people all based in Cambridge, MA.


Look at the cap of their coin, you will realize crypto as a whole is fucking gay. A year from now con-men like Ver, Wright, Wu, and Mcaffee will be in jail and only legitimate tech will be left.

>>9954303
> This is why we won’t budge on the Bitcoin blocksize.
This is the reason you lie to yourself you won't budge on the Bitcoin blocksize.
The real reason is because it is in the interests of the legacy financial system and it is Blockstream's business plan that Bitcoin is never allowed to actually scale on chain as it was originally projected to back in 2008.
You can fearmonger as much as you like about ten node systems, but the fact remains that the degraded operation state for a properly functioning peer to peer electronic cash system based on a blockchain is *immensely* more decentralised than the same based on a routed and staked hub and spoke network.
In order to control the flow of transactions in the former, you need to control *effectively all* of the hashing power. In order to control the flow of transactions in the latter, all you need to do is control the majority of staked central hubs and no significant trade activity will happen without your sanction, and on this chokepoint regulations can be enacted.
It's really a testament to human stupidity that instead of noticing those very simple facts, people like you tie themselves up in ridiculous rhetorical knots justifying transaction fees higher than the amount of hardware necessary to run a node, in order to keep the block size at the total throughput of a fax machine for the entire global transaction network.
It is demonstrative of just how ignorant this market space is that this is not understood more widely right now, but mark my words, the next crop of market failures that will be culled by the evolution of the space will be the cultists who don't actually have a clue what's really going on and are mindlessly parroting dogma they have not the faintest idea or conception of how to understand, ignoring the fact the people who put these measures in place were literally toasting champagne to the downfall of the network.

>>9953027
>Jihan is on another level playing 40D cryptographic chess
yeah but only because he was convinced to finally, by the real brains of the operation (pic related)

>>9954619
If you accept the mainstream derping about "banking the unbanked" (which itself is just a PR ruse of the USG's to get their fingers into the blockchain), you'll find yourself wanting to do something stupid about minimum transaction values in the Bitcoin network. Once you reduce the minimum fee for broadcasting, a whole slew of smaller transactions will want into each block. That demand will put upward pressure on the price each transaction must pay for inclusion into each 1MB block, pressure that can only be alleviated by increasing the maximum block size. So there you have it: the USG is once again exploiting your kindhearted desire to make the world a better place for someone to whom you're entirely unrelated to fuck up the blockchain.

>>9954643
I can't believe he actually posed for that photo Lmao
plaigarist , conman, liar and now a MySpace tier bitch top fucking kek

Given that the devs of lightning say it can't scale beyond 1 million channels, it seems obvious that Bitcoin will fail at some point.

What the ever loving fuck is happening?
>phoneposting
Is this the bithumb exit scam expediting coin movements?

>>9951859
Ill take Vitamin Buttermilk over that sly cunt ver any day

why do corecucks act like another company, or multiple other companies can't overtake bitmain?

>>9954204

it would be much longer than 2 weeks if the block times increase significantly

>>9954303

Thanks for what is at least the most reasonable argument I have literally ever read from a Core supporter. Makes me think you might actually be involved with development. If this thread is still up when i get home I will respond.

If it flips and the btc chain dies, it's the corecucks fault and they should have heeded Satoshis warning. Segwit chain was bad idea from the start. I am quite happy with how resilient Satoshis vision has been. One day it may be subverted totally, but for now we still have our bitcoin.

>>9954668
> into each 1MB block
begs the question.
It has nothing to do with "banking the unbanked" or any nonsense socialist bullshit of the kind, it has to do with what is an actual better product;
1) an artificially restrained product by design that assists the legacy financial system in its survival by limiting access to the ledger to far fewer people than could otherwise afford to transact on it in a simple unrestrained free market
2) a product that is a dire threat to the survival of the legacy financial system, providing a direct free market alternative to the products that they offer in an unrestrained way, with supply mitigated purely by the actual providers of said product, and not artificially restrained to prop up the ailing infrastructure of the old world or privilege the business interests of second layer entities who hope to make a killing on centralising the network.
If you honestly believe option 1 is flatly better, then you simply don't understand the nature of the limits under discussion. I would have much more sympathy for this position if the system had been allowed to grow according to free market pressures rather than being centrally planned and artificially restrained, because I know as a systems architect a broadcast peer to peer network is absolutely not the most efficient way to scale a system like this.
But what those who grasp that and fail to understand the actual nature of the product don't realise is that the properties of the ledger are actually assured by the broadcast nature of the transactions. You take that away and sub in a second layer network that's routed and staked as a genuflection at the altar of technical efficiency, and you compromise the actual nature and value of the underlying ledger in so doing, providing the exact chokepoints for control the USG you so disparage is desperately eager to be able to apply pressure to.

>>9954619

the thing is decentralization past a certain point doesn't add any value to the network. Decentralization adds a tremendous amount of value at the censorship resistance threshold but beyond that returns are rapidly diminishing (since censorship resistance is the point; and once you have achieved it all you can do beyond that is add some buffer). BTC is more than centralized enough right now to provide this despite what some would have you believe it could centralize quite a bit further and still be censorship resistant.

>>9955079

decentralized enough*

i see core tards are making death threats already like anyone gives a fuck about these goons.

>>9954886
pls respond

>>9955133

BUY THE FUCKING COIN

>>9955079
If lightning gets implemented for 99%+ of transaction throughput, there goes censorship resistance, mark my words.
In the meantime, actual peer to peer electronic cash flowing over genuine not artificially limited blockchains will serve perfectly well for censorship resistance, and any concerns about centralisation in this paradigm will prove to be vastly overblown.

>>9954643
can we actually read his new whitepapers anywhere?

>>9955062
Things are about as free market as they can be and there's meaning in preserving blockchain space.

>>9955302
To the extent that value is about to be quantified by the market, I agree.
But the reason that it is about to be quantified by the market with the original vision in head to head competition with Maxwell's sabotage plan is because for a long time the market was nowhere near as free as it should've been. It only ever came to this because of their meddling.
Now one of the visions will come out on top and the other will die.
And it is very much not looking like it's going to be BTC that comes out on top.

Wasn't it Roger Ver who mentioned that Bitcoin Cash (and cryptocurrency) will become popular and gain mass adoption, but then it will intentionally be crashed by world leaders and be used to trap all the peons with a sub-currency, and all the rich individuals will continue use fiat, which will gain value while remaining the same?

Jihan here, this time was gonna be the flippening but since you guys know I'll delay it another 8 months

Smell ya later dweebs

https://medium.com/@craig_10243/lightning-is-malleable-steel-is-not-4e68bfdef31

>>9955225
the garbage can in his mom's basement

>>9953832
>2014
>she literally only had to wait 3 more years
sad but true

BCH shills recycling the "Operation Dragon Slayer" bullshit again...

>>9955699
cry more corecuck!

>>9956207
>c-cry more
says the cashie while chewing on vers dick. kys

>>9951758
Thats the reason 90% of altcoins will die. Only the pairs traded either against theter or BCH will survive.

>>9956214
says the coreboy while fingering samson's asshole. kys

>>9954643
Loved that he claimed to be Satoshi then when he had to prove it he did it in such a convoluted way only brainlets would believe him. Now it's super easy to identify low iq people, just ask them if Craig is Satoshi.

>>9953209
You mean Barry? Yes I think Barry is a great investor. But he's more on ETC and ZEN. Not sure he's positioned in BCH.

>>9954643
https://blog.wizsec.jp/2018/02/kleiman-v-craig-wright-bitcoins.html

>this thread has been up for 8 hours
fuck right off

>>9956588
>checking your own dubs

>>9954948
>why do corecucks act like another company, or multiple other companies can't overtake bitmain?
It's not possible to overtake bitmain and make a profit, you will have to make ASICs and mine at a loss. There's a high probability the chinese communist party is involved with bitmain, taking control of BTC and BCH then pushing them as the dominant online currency would be a huge win for them. The CCP would be able to censor and monitor all TX which gives them tremendous power if crypto grows more.

>>9956686
Right, they definitely want to rig the game despite the fact that in order to censor transactions they would have to control *basically all* mining power in the entire world.
It makes way more sense to assume that they simply want a provably fair game so that they can insulate themselves from currency manipulation around the world and trade on an even playing field. Yeah it hamstrings their ability to play the same game, but they aren't the ones who currently have global reserve currency status, so it hurts their opponents much more for them to play a fair game than it does them.
And even if they *did* just orphan all blocks that didn't implement CCCP censorship rules, they'd just kill the currency as people around the world outside their jurisdiction abandoned it en masse. It would be the stupidest possible thing they could do to compromise their golden egg laying goose in that way when all they have to do is take a hands off approach and watch it detonate the current corrupt financial order.

>>9956710
They're desperate for the CNY to become the replace the USD as the worlds reserve currency, they will either crash crypto after they control it to eradicate competition or subvert it to push CNY adoption by making CNY/BCH the dominant market as long as they can make CNY the primary on/off ramp for crypto they still win. Westerners are so naive the chinese economy is centrally managed and they play to win, westerners will happily sell themselves out because they can't comprehend an entire country strategically taking over critical assets via thousands of corporate front groups.

>>9956781
I'm a westerner and I can totally comprehend that, I see them do it all the time, I've case studied them buying up NZ dairy and Australian mineral and solar production and various other commodities, I know how they work and they're rational, not comically evil.
It simply makes more sense for them to use crypto as a sword to destroy the present global financial system than it does for them to break that sword trying to force CNY down everyone else's throats, that's never going to fly, so why even bother to try?
Have you ever asked yourself *why* Bitmain even sells hardware outside CN? Unlike say Bitfury which is effectively a defacto arm of the USG? It's because they don't want to be in a position where any coercion from their state could actually compel them to damage their holdings, they want to be in a position where they can say with all honesty "Honourable chairman, we would happily comply with your request, but you should know that when we do this, x y and z will inevitably happen, and we believe these things to not be compatible with the long term goals for China, would you still like us to proceed?"
China does what works, they're not crazy, they're not stupid, and they're not evil. If playing a fair game is the path to success, that's what they'll do.;

>>9956864
Bitmain sells old hardware after they have mined with it for a while, they keep the latest ones to themselves until it's time to dump on the gweilos again. I don't think the chinese are evil either they just play whatever games everyone else is but they want the power the US has with the USD, they aren't interested in a fair financial system they want to occupy the position the US occupies. In their defense a fair financial system is probably impossible someone will always dominate, but crypto will get caught up in their fight and ruined if people willingly allow bitmain and bch to take over.

>>9953021
There are some, but they probably all dumped their BCH already.
You can go through a list like this
https://blockchair.com/bitcoin-cash/blocks?q=time(2017-08..)&s=cdd_total(desc)
to find the most interesting transactions since the fork.
This one's funny:
https://www.blocktrail.com/BCC/address/19Mz2o9RDABT74SA9njZqMtJXKEzj2qUoH/transactions

>>9952293
the problem isn't pow, or the hardware. it's the hashing algo that lends itself to it. if the algo was changed we would be able to distribute hashing power much more equitably. or conversely just commoditize miners so that they're incredibly cheap.

>>9953745
You can't remember 2014 and you are retarded thanks

Lets not forget that Samsung and another chip manufacturer are creating a new generation of 7nm sha256 asics , so if bitmain was to do anything it would have to be soon before these company's are able to ramp production and sell them on mass.

https://cointelegraph.com/news/samsung-produces-asic-chips-for-new-halong-bitcoin-miner

>>9955062
PoW doesn't scale on-chain for the masses, without fucking up the wealthy in the process. The wealthy will not tolerate that the masses fuck their wealth up. There will not be a blocksize increase, anytime soon.

>You take that away and sub in a second layer network that's routed and staked as a genuflection at the altar of technical efficiency, and you compromise the actual nature and value of the underlying ledger in so doing, providing the exact chokepoints for control the USG you so disparage is desperately eager to be able to apply pressure to.

The wealthy can afford transacting on-chain. You can be part of the wealthy by owning a couple of BTC and you'll be in great standing, or you can keep crying about how not everyone gets to transact on-chain.

>>9957582
So far bitmain just squeezes out all competition, they likely get free power from the government and dumping old miners on plebs covers production costs. Unless someone is willing to hurl a few hundred million at mining for a loss to fuck bitmain up not much will change. The stupid thing is the crypto community could easily afford it, even scam ICOs can raise hundreds of millions but none of them will pay to secure crypto long term.

>>9957911
These company's coming into the asics game are worth billions and are more likely to have far better technical knowledge than that of bitmain. Both GMO and Samsung have a far longer history in chip design that bitmain and will be on better terms with fabrication labs , which means they will likely be able to bundle the asic chip production with some other products they make.

I doubt these company's themselves will mine with it , but will rather sell them on mass which will hurt bitmain as these chips will at the least be as good as what bitmain has in secret. 7nm is a game changer.

>>9951756
you disgusting fiend

>>9957977
Samsung doesn't make any just fabs them for halong. GMO is interesting but odds are bitmain just mines at a loss until they give up, at least it should be obvious to what extent bitmain has government backing once the GMO miners are out.

>>9951550
hes a little man

hurry up Jihan lets get this shit over with