/biz/ - Business & Finance

bump

>>9197673
Oh well, I tried.

>>9197636

Just wanted to say you picked a god awful time to get in the real estate game. With all the IO loans set to default back to principle the market is gonna drop significantly.

All that aside, have a bump because I'm curious too.

>>9197816
Yeah, I know. I bought around a year ago, and it's in a suburb which I'm pretty adamant will go up in value due to its close proximity to the city (less than 5km).

Probably an un-ideal time in the short-run but what can you do. Fingers crossed it will still be worth in the long run.

>>9197636
How sizable is your portfolio?
Just leave the country

>>9197903
Only $35k. Should have clarified. Sizeable for me*.

I haven't sold anything for FIAT yet, so it might not even be something I have to worry about. Although I believe as it stands, they're considering every trade a taxable event, which would fuck many people over I'm sure.

don't do it, the government are helpless with attaining crypto tax for the foreseeable future, if you use international exchanges like binance/bibox etc.

for now, learn to keep enough fiat as safestorage as you make trades to cover any possible tax in case one day they are able to pursue it.

>>9197849

I'm basically exactly the same as you OP. Brought a one bedroom flat in a suburb right next to the city and have a decent stock portfolio.

In for answers as well

> tax accountant
> Crypto
For start one, Accountants here don't know shit about investing, you need a good financial adviser that partners up with a good accountant for that.

Secondly, Advisers won't touch Crypto because of the overregulation killing the industry and accountants will touch it even less because; they're all old and don't understand it and they've already been burnt by recommending everyone bought lots of Sandalwood trees etc for tax advantages that saw thousands of people lose all of their money as every company collapse (the last one standing changed its name to Quintis and has gone into administration).

Find an adviser and accountant to get other services from that knows the space that can talk to you about it off the record privately when you become mates, don't expect any official adviser for the next decade in this socialist hellhole.

.t Brisbane based Financial Planner that works closely with Accountants, Mortgage Brokers, BDMs etc

Also it's not on anyones approved product list to speak to you about, they'll lose their license, get fined and potentially go to jail for talking to you about it.

I can't help you because I know fuck all about Crypto (I've bought a bit of BTC myself a few times thats about it), if a client came to me the best I could do would be to help them set up a wallet, even then that's extremely risky and frowned upon, I can't even give general information to people and the moment I say to someone "you should set up a CoinJar account if you want to buy Crypto because it links well with Australian bank accounts" or something like that, my career would be over.

The royal commission has insured that investment culture will be bottom of the barrel for a long time to come so we're on our own as investors in these new areas until we can get the government to fuck off.

>>9198564

Considering this is a mongolain basket weaving forum and you have expertise is basket weaving and nothing else, what would be the maximum one could cash out before arousing suspicion and to avoid any drama?

Good luck finding an accountant that even knows what crypto is. The youngest tax accountant I've ever met was like 40 and a woman.
Get a financial advisor. Come tax time they'll probably workout your tax and get you to pay it yourself

>>9199153
That's a question for an accountant dodgy enough to answer it.

>>9199153
$8999 is the limit before most banks flag you. Hiding cashout gains from the ATO is another story though anon, they will pick up on multiple small deposits (under 1k)

>>9199260

Thats quite disappointing. How is anyone meant to make it when they'll just get taxed to oblivion.
Hopefully some kind of card comes out so that it can skip the banks all together

>>9199369
Sorry m8, thats just the way (((they))) like it. Tax is how the kike punish the goyim.

>>9199260
Structuring raises more red flags and will trigger an audit.

just do the tax yourself put crypto as income and exenses (go through a wallet stored on an exchange or brokerage like coinspot) as income and expenses and claim that they were the ones that were actually trading the crypto and keeping it and all you do is put cash in and take cash out i am also in melb but no mortgage and my folio is about half of yours

>>9199599
also register an abn and claim ur trading with the business

>>9199599
oh yeah and if u give the ato like 10% as tax u won't get flagged for an audit

>>9199651
Lmao thats just wrong. They will realise you haven't paid them enough and send you a fat fucking tax bill. Dont listen to this retard, Op.

>>9199518
Yeah thats true. Not sure what it has to do with what I said though?

>>9197816
It looks like the government is easing back on punishing IO investment loans with this one. Having an IO owner occupied home loan will be a thing of the past though.
Either way a correction would have to be huge to reverse what's happened in Melbourne and Sydney over the last 5 years or so.

>>9197935
>>9198511
>>9199215
Pretty much all accountants know what Bitcoin is and how it's taxed. Because it is just an asset for capital gains. If you trade crypto-crypto it's akin to a barter arrangement where you realise the value of the asset when you switch it for another one. So you do get taxed on crypto-crypto trades.

As for working out how much tax you owe, I used cointracking.info, but I've heard there are a few other options like bitcoin.tax and such. Using their services is the easiest I think, you just add in all you're trades and it spits you out a number for your capital gain/loss, yes you may have to pay a bit for the service but once you have that number you literally just add it to your tax return as a capital gain asset, and any accountant can do that.

>>9199781
The IO credit butthole was tight after the recent regulations and demands from ASIC etc, now with the royal commission all the brokers I know are leaving because the butthole is the tightest it's ever been.

>>9199853

Wouldn't gains only be realised once its back into fiat? I don't understand why crypto -> crypto should cop a tax, aside from a fuck you tax, of course.

>>9200028
I would love it if it were that simple.

Have a look at the ATO guidance document for crypto-crypto trades here:
https://www.ato.gov.au/General/Gen/Tax-treatment-of-crypto-currencies-in-Australia---specifically-bitcoin/#Exchangingacryptocurrencyforanothercrypt

>>9197636
https://fortisap.com.au/

>>9200028
Tax in Australia deals with time periords and ownership, think of it as any other trading of assets, if someone else becomes the owner of an asset which has changed in value they need to ping people for the gains or record the losses etc. The one thing the government does better than anything else is getting money out of people it believes it can/should get, it's one of the biggest small business killers.

>>9200204
Cryptocurrency as an investment

If you acquire cryptocurrency as an investment, you may have to pay tax on any capital gain you make on disposal of the cryptocurrency.

thats what it says so just don't dispose of the crypto until ur ready to buy an asset with the proceeds which u can claim (land, house, motor vehicle lol)

>>9199878
Yeah definitely much harder to get deals done, I'm like a broker of sorts too. Brokers are like real estate agents, they just leave as soon as things get hard.

>>9200259
You can't claim any of the things you said

>>9200259
>Where you exchange one cryptocurrency for another cryptocurrency, you dispose of one CGT asset and acquire another CGT asset.

But yes if you buy and hodl, when you decide to sell you only pay on tax on the profits then. Also if you need to buy ETH to trade for another altcoin, as long as it's done in the same day you don't have to count the AUD->ETH and the ETH->altcoin trade, it will just be counted as AUD->altcoin.

>>9197849
lmao rip
there's a global real estate apocalypse coming and we're going to get hit the hardest

>>9200310
Most just wanted easy large paychecks anyway so it makes sense.
>>9200400
Before the royal commission I counted close to 12 headwinds all popping up against our aussie property market and since the royal commission apparently there has been a spate of houses listed for sale as lending is closed even more and people try to solidify their profits.

I can't fucking wait.

>>9200478
Do you think it will have a positive or negative effect on the cryptocurrency market? Do you think it could panic people to pull all their assets to cash?

>>9200323
you can under an abn, best is to register a trust fund

>>9200504
I don't think the aussie property markets problems are going to be that correlated with what happens with stocks and crypto because we're talking global movements, federal reserve etc there.

Of course people selling their investment properties will go to cash and then maybe onto something else but I don't know how big that would be as a drop in the ocean, unless the Chinese go ballistic.

I can see our property market correlating with stock market panic and global property market issues but then we're talking about different events with different effects, one global and one caused purely by domestic government policy.

Personally I'm treating them as seperate environments until something happens globally that impacts all of it at once. Of course the investors panicking will go to cash but the property market has Asians and owner occupiers to take into account as well.

Mortgage stress is rising despite people refinancing to like 3.7% these days.

>>9199728
if they audit you, 10% is a pretty safe margin for a business, whatever they find, if you make sure to be able to claim that transactions were used for the business, they can't argue that they weren't, just use common sense. They won't waste their time. Also borrow some tools off tradies and tell them you paid for them. Tradies and construction workers always need to launder money as they get paid lots of cash and need to declare income if they want to buy cars and houses.

your going to get taxed to hell and back regardless. taxes are extortionate in this country and it all just goes to waste anyway.

you should not be cashing out your crypto. we're unironically just getting started. we're not even half a trillion total market cap just yet. its only a matter of time before the next global financial crisis and when it happens we'll see massive capital flight into crypto. this is where we'll see the real money.

>>9200638
Yeah, no part of me plans on cashing out at any point in the near future.

I just need to understand the tax implications of holding, without every converting to AUD.

Seems like I'm still going to get fucked if every crypto to crypto trade is a taxable event.

>>9197636
Cross the Tasman, enjoy a better country and 0% tax on crypto.

>>9200376
what if you buy a house in crypto?

>>9200659
>Seems like I'm still going to get fucked if every crypto to crypto trade is a taxable event.

fuck that. how would they even know? you'll be cashing out via btc presumably anyway.

>>9200749
this. they can't know unless you tell them. just tumble the btc then tell em you lost everything

>>9200763
in online poker

>>9200739
You still get a fucking tax bill nigga

>>9200739
>https://www.ato.gov.au/General/Gen/Tax-treatment-of-crypto-currencies-in-Australia---specifically-bitcoin/#Exchangingacryptocurrencyforanothercrypt
The next paragraph explains that part:
>Where you receive property instead of cash as part of a transaction, you are usually taken to have the market value in Australian dollars of the property received.
It's a barter arrangement in the eyes of the ATO. If you trade your property for a house, you must declare the market value of the trade deal at that time. By doing this you are realising any profits, and you will get taxed on them as capital gains.

>>9199260
How do you know this figure?? I thought it was 10K

>>9197811

We're not posting our accountants on fucking /biz/ you autist. And no - mine has 0 understanding. Fortunately, neither does the IRD, I think so long as you've made the effort it'll be fine until they figure out how it works. Explaining making thousands from flipping cats and PoWH using leveraged Eth from MakerDAO was hilarious....

Oh yeah, and you just bought the property top. You do know the banks sharted themselves and we're about to crash right? I'm staying all-in crypto and Gold (just buy DGX for the easy way to hold Gold) and will only be buying real estate and stocks etc after the bottom.

>>9200659
I cashed out, 250k tax bill fucking hurts but I wanted to buy a home outright

brainlet who only got a job last year here, if I held for a year and cash out I pay less CGT, right? But if I made say 500k profit, I'd have to pay the higher 48/dollar rate for the top section of profit instead of CGT because 48% is more expensive, right?

>>9201647
so instead of paying back the bank with interest you just work out some payment plan with the ATO...interesting...

>>9201227
Family dealing with banks.

Quick question here - I think I'm overlooking something simple, but let's say I owe 7500 in CGT from crypto trades, and during the same fin year I have bought a stock which has lost 7500 in value. If i now sell the stock at a loss of 7500, my CGT will offset with my capital loss.

I could then buy back the same stock at the same price (minus trading fees etc), so in practice, if i was intending to hold the stock for the long run, i have received a 'free' 7500 tax credit which can be used to offset my crypto CGT.

Is this possible in practice? Or rather, does anyone have experience with an event like this?

>cgt 40+%

how do they even justify this? it's literally extortion

>>9201227
>>9201847
That being said, it would differ between banks. So could be 10k at some. This was CBA

http://www.bourneandweir.com.au/cryptocurrency-tax-and-you-what-you-need-to-know-from-a-taxation-perspective/

ADDRESS
Level 11, 50 Market Street
Melbourne VIC 3000 AUSTRALIA

PO Box 200
Collins Street West
Melbourne VIC 8007 AUSTRALIA

DETAILS
Phone: +61 3 9629 1433
Fax: +61 3 9629 2314
bwoffice@bourneandweir.com.au

>>9200763
Well, they know when you actually try to withdraw or put a lambo in your driveway, tumbling it is pointless as is shit like saying you lost it or faggot ass trade for xmr memes.

>>9201898
YES

>>9201936
im sure theres ways around it like setting up some bullshit non profit company like the clinton foundation and receiving an anonymous donation in bitcoins or something.

if there wasn't a way we wouldn't be in the situation we're in now

>>9201847
Fuck i hope you are lying i cashed out 9200 or some shit.

>>9202202
this is delusional anon

>>9202354
you say it like it doesn't happen, like people don't do it. that is delusional fren

>>9202371
I hope you're not the type of person to get angry when you hear
> X Company had record profits and paid 0 tax!
Or worse yet
> X Company has Y revenue and paid 0 tax!

>>9202371
The reality is you will never set up any NFP and if you are unlucky enough to have the tax man take a look you will get ass fucked. There won't be the conversation you have in your head where you convince him the rules are wrong and save the crypto world with your autism, he will just tell you you're fucked and you will pay, there is no other outcome, most people just pay taxes.

>>9202423
what if i made 500k in crypto bought a house in AUD and paid off the tax man slowly wouldn't that be preferable than to be paying back a mortgage with interest rates?

>>9202459
It's not safe to assume, you're still charged interest and possible fines

>>9202508
say a family member is about to kick it.
what if i transfer the crypto to her account she pulls out sends it to me as a gift and when hit with the tax bill claims bankruptcy

cmon dammit there must be way

>>9202592
these ideas are actually getting more practical but this is still going to be obvious you are pulling a scam. you really need expert help and even then you still risk getting caught

>>9202637
ill work on it

>>9202459
You don't get to choose to "pay the tax man slowly"

>>9201930
cheers mate!

A cryptocurrency is defined as a digital currency whose transactions are secured through encryption. A defining feature of cryptocurrency is that it is decentralised and is not issued by any government authority. The most commonly traded cryptocurrencies at present are Bitcoin and Ethereum.

The Commissioner has currently defined cryptocurrencies as ‘holding rights that amount to property. Thus, it is deemed to be a capital gains tax (CGT) asset under subsection 108-5(1)(a) of the ITAA 1997 and is in accordance with TD2014/16 ‘Is Bitcoin a ‘CGT asset’?’

>>9202707
no but if the house is in someone elses name and you only make $800 a week there isn't much they can do except maybe put you in jail and not get their payments

>>9202764
They can charge you with fraud then seize the house under the proceeds of crime act

>>9202779
what fraud was committed? i took the money out, gave it to someone else and am willing to pay off the tax

Daily reminder: The Australian government will confiscate your savings to bailout banks

https://www.ainsliebullion.com.au/gold-silver-bullion-news/senate-passes-e2-80-98bail-in-e2-80-99-law-e2-80-93-how-safe-is-your-cash-now-/tabid/88/a/1722/default.aspx

>>9202801
the problem is it's a blatant scheme, these don't actually work, they just tell you to get fucked and pay.. good chance you end up selling the house and eating shit on the stamp, fees and any losses on the price

>>9202990
>The Australian government will confiscate your savings to bailout banks
kikes

What are the tax implications if I lost money but never cashed out?

Crypto is treated exactly the same as shares. Any accountant will be able to help you and overcharge you if haven't kept easy to use records.

>>9203987
If you sold at a loss into another crypto or into fiat regardless of whether it's in your bank or not it is a taxable event and you would have a capital loss now

>>9204159

Does the loss offset the gain?

Don't pay taxes. Stop being a taxcuck

>>9204159
tax on what? he didnt make any money, he lost it

>>9204693
>>9204766

A capital loss means you can deduct this from other capital gains you might make (house sale, share sale etc.). It's a good thing to have (from a tax perspective)

If you don't have other assets that made a gain elsewhere you can't do shit though.

>>9197636
I read from the ATO website that for the current financial year that you only pay tax on your gain and not every trade. You can read their paper that talks about bitcoin and other cryptos from the website.

Almost sure that is the case but kind of second guess myself after some reaponses ITT.

>>9205578
On a further note, does anyone knows what happens in the following scenario:

I have moved to Korea for study, I use crypto as a means if wealth transfer due to the better exchange rate

Technically cause I cash out immediately I am not investing, basically just not having the babk take out there share for their service. Would this be taxable by any means?

>>9205717

Hard to say. Sounds like personal use which has different tax rules applied, but i'm no wizard.
Check the link some anon posted above.
I'm also a jaded cunt so i'd say they'd fuck you regardless, cos muh shekels

fuck me dead this thread is so shit. 3/4 of you cunts are retarded and have no idea what youre talking about, the other 1/4 have a bit of an idea but the 3/4 are too stupid to get anything of whats going on.

i'm a tax law student with over 500k crypto gains. i haven't paid a cent in tax, and i don't plan on it. I've cashed out 2.5x my initial investment.

the trick is this, like one anon said, you need to register an ABN and do all your trades under the ABN. you are now in the business of being a crypto currency trader, which, for tax purposes, is the same as being a stock trader.

then, you keep doing whatever the fuck it is you want to do. you cash out however much you want. Don't structure/ladder your cash outs. Do them whenever you feel like and however much you feel like and dont make them the same number.

the ato simply do not have the resources to deal with the saturation of crypto in the market. they are swamped. half the fucking value in their website comes from a fucking user based forum where they actively engage users on asking them how the ato should handle things. the cunts have no fucking idea at all.

IF in the highly unlikely even you get audited, make sure you have no cash. make yourself cash poor. do this by buying a small business that preferably does a lot of cash sales. this business is now your safe haven. you can launder any future gains through the business to make it seem totally legit. Now, we're being audited, right? Well, they'll say "you owe us $XXXXXXXXX dollars in tax. you say, look cunts, i dont have that, but what i do have is $YYYYYY i can get from my business now, $ZZZZZ from personal accounts and $VVVVV from family and friends and then i can give you all that for the tax i owe. i wanted to do the right thing by you guys, but you made it so impossibly hard to know what to do, that I didn't know what was best so I just did what I did'

TBC

>>9206548
cont.

The cunts will jump on the offer/deal youve made them, you end up paying something measly like only a <10% tax rate, PLUS you get to reap benefits of time value of money investing.

also i know im from unsw but im white i swear please believe me. all my friends are yellow and this is how they do their taxes in this country to be able to afford all that bape and 'preme.

dont forget to claim tax deductions on crypto related expenses. that means, new PC, internet, phone bill, trading fees, hardware wallets etc etc. milk the system.

also dont forget to sell your business with an artificially inflated balance sheet and transaction history. put all this on your linkedin, rinse repeat. you will look like an entrepreneur superstar. youll have over 1mil by the time you're 30, dont buy property outside of your super, rent while youre cash rich and pump the rest of your cash into crypto and stocks as they grow higher than property. wait for rates to rise, cash out of everything again, then dump into property and ladder+negatively gear your way into real estate domination by amassing shit loads of equity. honestly, if you live in australia and cant make a buck, you must be a fucking retard. this country is called the lucky country for a reason. money fucking literally grows on trees here

>>9206627
This sounds pretty based, thanks mang. But my only question is when you sell that business, do you make up a sale or what?

>>9206627

Hey buddy would you want to meet up and get a beer,, also in sydney, i am a pretty good trader and can def teach you some stuff but i would like to pick your brain on some of this stuff?

>>9206776
no you literally just find someone thats looking to buy your business and make up some shit like you're going overseas for postgrad and need to sell. gooks love this sort of shit because theyre going to do the same shit to the business as you are and it gives their kids a place to work while theyre sapping up our selective school resources.

you literally buy a shit business, rub it raw with dodgy deals and laundering, pumping up its profitability, then skip town for 6 months living a lush as fuck life smashing thai gash, then come home and now you've got all your money from crypto and a business looking as totally legitimate with taxes minimised.

the absolute state of australian citizens. turnbulls got us all scared that theres a big bad tax man out to stop our meme money. pollies dont know shit about crypto and the taxes associated with it. were literally untouchable until the government pumps shitloads of money into the ATO to stop us, and turnbull is so obsessed with the deficit that we can say safely extra ATO funding wont happen under him, and shorten the fucken commie cunt, is gonna pump money into the environment, weed and fags that again, the ato wont have enough resources to pursue us.

>>9206849
nah too high net worth to be meeting 4channers irl. nothing personal, but im sure you'd do the same in my position. post your discord/telegram though and we'll chat like that

>>9206945

Ok cool this is my telegram username
@sammexican987

>>9206987

you gotta go back

>>9206945
Nice, I will do some further reading on this. I am actually overseas now for studying postgrad since January this year and wondering what I could be doing to make some money until I can legally work here in Korea (august). I have an overseas bank account here, any suggestions? Don’t mind doing my own research, but any guidance would be appreciated.

>>9206945

Also i am not mexican, just chose that name then. With regards to creating a buiness, you would have to pay higher tax rates on that then the 20% long term crypto holdings tax rate, if you are laundering money through it. Doesnt make sense

>>9206945

Telegram guy here again, another way you guys can launder money and this is 10x easier and safer, you take your money to the casino and create an account at the cage, you bring cash with you but always under $10k, then take the chips to the bacrat table and play whichever is a slight favourite, very close to 50/50 so you dont lose much if you keep the bets reasonable. While you are doing this you go to the cage and get another 8k and do this a few times so you have 30-40k in chips, you then after 5-6 hours put this into your casino cage. Leave it there for a few months and repeat this process until you have done it a few times, you then transfer this "winning' from your cage account to your bank account. And done easy tax free money and no one is the wiser

>>9207121

Make sure you only deal with cash that is less than $10k or it will be flagged.

>>9207050
learn python. become a small time dev and learn python, then make bots and ML algos to game exchanges. I'm always looking to contact more and more GOOD python devs and bring them into my circle. beneficial relationship for the both of us. i make the calls, you make it efficient. win win.

if you can learn python, you can rule this game totally. leverage GOOD python skills to get into more and more advanced/baller telegram and discord groups. outside of that, have a masters in econ/finance and background in trading. the entry for the every man though, is through dev work.

>>9207079
30% < 48.5%. Cash out 180k+ today as an individual and show me a way you wont pay that tax rate (incl. medicare levy) AND be able to make deductions on all crypto related purchases associated with the business?

Cash out as a business though, you're capped at 30% corporate tax rate + able to make deductions. Far more benefits to ABN in regards to profit reinvesting than as under capital gains.

Also, money laundering in casinos is a degenerate act. your face is on camera everywhere and they have algorithms set up to track this sort of behavior. Casinos are only good for laundering amounts <$50k, and under 50k, why would you even bother reporting anything to ATO? just live below your means and dont act like a fucking gook international student

>>9207282
Nice I actually learnt python last year (I want to do my masters in Artifical intelligence). I was in the shower literally just now thinking about trading bots and maybe making some kind of other trading programs I could market to normies for money. Thanks for the insight anon

>>9207449
glad to hear this. post your telegram and we will talk on there more.

>>9207524
@chriddu

You can send me a message so I have your contact, I probably won’t use it much at this point in time since I’m quite busy, but when I have the time and feeling more confident with my programming for such purposes then I will contact you and we can see what happens from there.

>>9199369
Gotta pay for those poor refugees! They all need shelter and Healthcare too, it is your job to help them citizen