/biz/ - Business & Finance

Is anyone actually withdrawing into fiat and has to be concerned about this or is everyone just HODLing?

>>9096154
>>9096365
of course I paid my taxes

>>9096387
so you went through the whole goddamn hassle of reporting your trade history? About what percent was taxed if you don't mind me asking?

as always, i will explain to them that any gains i made in crypto are not "income" or "wages" as defined in the code. as such, these gains are not subject to the "federal income" tax.

>>9096413
>federal income tax
Sounds unconstitutional to me, hmm.

it's a business expense

>>9096413
>>9096458
I understand this sentiment entirely and share it, I'm just wondering how likely it would be for someone to get fucked by the IRS for either not reporting it or reporting gains but not in the way they want it to be treated (as property and subject to requiring documentation on every trade).

>>9096458
even up until the early 1940's, almost no burgers paid this tax

The point of crypto is not to withdraw it bank into your bank. Fucking spend it, buy gold if you need cash.

Won't pay anything in taxes. It's MY money, they can go fuck themselves

>>9096154
Idk I plan on giving them $15k. Hope they're happy with that.

>>9096154
>your gains
>implying im not still down from my initial investment

>>9096483
you file the paperwork directly telling them it is not taxable. otherwise you are a cuck.

>>9096413
It's capital gains tax.

>>9096547
Yeah, you're going to get a letter explaining what capital gains tax is.

>>9096400
I only reported my coinbase trades which was taxed at 0% since I have student deductions

even if I didn't have deductions I'd still elect to pay since if you every strike the moon with crypto (ie reach 1 million) they are going to ask for your history and you'd be fucked at that point.

>>9096413
>>9096458
>>9096491
>>9096518
>>9096547
listen to these anons

>>9096365
I honestly didn't report this year cus I have no idea where to even begin or how to report desu. Just hodling then hiring someone to do all the tax work for me. I'm assuming I'll just have to pay a 20% late fine. Worst case if IRS finds out is I would probably just get a bill in the mail ordering me to pay a certain estimate.

>>9096447
>>9096497

>>9096696

meant to link
>>9096337
>>9096497

>>9096154
who /nocashout/ crew?

>>9096717
hodl gang

>>9096696
I've briefly looked into the Monero thing but I guess my problem is that I have no easier way to secure my short term profits, unless I could just use Tether for that. As much as I'd like to entirely avoid taxes I work too closely to people who are confined for breaking the law and do NOT want to end up in that situation.

I am sure there are people with 50-100k, in Crypto with no obligations or dependencies. If you keep living in the US and let them get away with taxing you this hard, you are literally a slave to the state. An obedient little lap dog of the IRS. Move to Europe if you value your financial autonomy and have some dignity. Literally am paying less than 1% here over my entire holdings.

>>9096717
Checking in

>>9096717
pm's and crypto

>>9096750
It's sad that Americans left Europe for this very reason and today were positioned worse than the old world. JUST

i cashed out.
reported trades through 8949s generated by bitcoin.tax given to my CPA. already used to filing cap gains taxes on other assets so it wasn't a big deal. they already have a few other clients who are balls deep in crypto so I was a pretty 'small fish' when it came to this type of reporting for them. still have a decent chunk in crypto but it feels good having some cash back in the account. wish i realized a lot more gains back in december though..

>implying we have gains and aren't deducting losses

>>9096154
Didn't pay a single cent and haven't gotten fucked yet so looks like its neets-1 irs-0

>>9096789

You guys screwed up. Should have moved right after majority of natural resources were exhausted. Its like none of your founding fathers ever played CIV.

>>9096154
Lost an unknown amount of monero... guess i will declare my losses over the next years ;)

>>9096853
;)

>>9096154
Just don't cash out. There are websites that allow you to buy stuff online using BTC and ETH

>>9096882
JM Bullion

>>9096853
>>9096858

> Knock Knock,

> How come you own this [item] worth x$ while our records clearly indicate that your net worth is only x$ and you couldn't possible afford this. I am sorry anon, but we have to call dips on asset forfeiture on the grounds that we believe you are evading taxes. Prove us wrong, oh shit you can't. Well sucks for you, now off to jail you go, with not even a house to return to. Welcome to the cycle

#Americuhh

>>9096898
>>9096882
If I buy gold then immediately sell to fiat it's not taxed as capital gains right? Or like other anons said convert to Monero then back to BTC then immediately sell?

>>9096928
you would have to do it anonymously

>>9096853
>lost an unknown amount of monero in a terrible boating accident

>>9096928
i think what you are concerned with is whether a currency transaction report is generated

>>9096928

>>9096899
this anon brings up a good point

>>9096954
Yeah honestly as much as I hate the IRS if I could just not deal with all of that horseshit and just pay whatever rate as my americuck fee for not going to federal prison that'd be okay I guess

>>9096985
inb4 more anons try convincing me to evade this colossally mismanaged and temperamental government bureaucracy.

>>9096962

Since I am from Europe, which is turning into a shithole but at least does give people not living in the shitiest of European shitholes quite some financial autonomy, and ways to even evade that _legally_ (Malta/Cyprus/Luxembourg - route). I still do not understand why some of you Amerifags don't open businesses here. It is not that expensive, and if you really do have money you can even put your crypto earnings into a HOLDING company and cash out under a shelf company without your name attached. ALL LEGAL. Try this in the US and you'll be in jail for the next 25 years. Not saying this shit won't change, but it has been like this the past few decades.

>>9097003
Could always try your hand at going innawoods. G-man might try to Ruby Ridge you though.

You should be buying PFR instead of whatever crap youre holding. Their mainnet comes out on April 30th. Do you realize that Localbitcoins now has KYC? Do you understand that once PFR is out, people will all jump ship to avoid having to upload documents? People kept doubting the project but these guys deliver. Do you want to be poor forever..

>>9097053
I am from /k/ but alas I dream of "making it" and my current career will have me dead a couple years into my pension

>>9097028
could you explain how the cashing out process would work in that scenario?

>>9096899
I have a big family sirs and live in India. What do you want mister irs?

>>9097077

Since you earn your money online, you do not have to necessarily declare taxes in the country you live in. You could just as well set up a virtual office in Malta/Cyprus/Luxembourg and also a bank account to withdraw into. Since you are still an American citizen you will still have to pay American taxes this way. But if you buy a holding company (2$-5$k), you will be cashing out through a third party and your name will never show up on the records. You pay your low taxes there, and then withdraw it to another bank account within the EU, and all will be legal on paper. I am simplifying and missing a lot of steps here. But more detailed information is only a few google queries away. Most important part here is that these are all legal loopholes.

Just don't let the money return to the US, ever.

>>9097153
Shitty thing is that due to a lot of my hobbies/family/etc I would probably never make a permanent move to another country, as nice as that could be. I guess I have to either gamble avoiding the IRS (would end horribly if I get a moonshot and retire like I want to) or just pay the capital gains (property?) taxes. I did not really envy the EU citizens as much before learning about all of this but I do now.

>>9097217
just pay your damn taxes, its not even that bad

>>9097217

If you can't move, the only way to avoid taxes in the US is to literally evade taxes in the US. It would be a challenge, but it is possible. But for anyone not getting in 100k+ year in cash flow I would say it is not really worth setting up a whole layering structure. You could just as well start a legit business, buy some stuff through Crypto and instead of deducting it from your business banking account, make some money under the counter by never letting them tax your the cash earnings to begin with. If you open something like a grocery store you could also declare a huge amount of losses on rotten food and shit. Not telling you how to evade taxes, but yeah...thats how I would do it if I really had to.

> I did not really envy the EU citizens as much before learning about all of this but I do now.

Well if you live in Germany or the Netherlands taxes are so low on Crypto that you probably lost more in exchange fees before cashing out, so there's that too.

>>9097237
>>9097271
Well, I appreciate the insight. I guess come tax season 2018 I'm just going to have to go back and just track all of my altcoin trades to report as they're all considered "taxable events" now.

>>9097271
>Well if you live in Germany or the Netherlands taxes are so low on Crypto that you probably lost more in exchange fees before cashing out, so there's that too.

Don't talk about other tax systems if you clearly have no Idea. The income tax in germany will go up to 50-60% in most cases with serious gains. And the 1year tax free hodl rule will apply to the minority, because who the fuck hodls for 1 whole year.

>>9097681

>And the 1year tax free hodl rule will apply to the minority, because who the fuck hodls for 1 whole year.

You're obviously one stupid breed if you'd rather fork over 40% than wait for a year. Good job on living in one of the most crypto tax friendly countries in the world and still being an obedient house broken lapdog for the taxman.

Dümmer geht es nicht mehr.

>>9096845
>resources exhausted
>civ
you're thinking of age of empires, buddy.

>>9096928
look, if they know you have the crypto (i.e. you bought it on a KYC compliant exchange) if it changes address that counts as realizing any capital gain or loss, unless you can prove that you own both addresses. They don't have the resources and systems to catch you, yet, but they've already started contracting it out in order to nab the big fish.

So many people feeling smart here.
So many peope getting absolutely rekt in the next years.

Man, this will be hillarious!

>>9097797
You are a retard if you would think you can't do more gains with trading shitcoins and ICOs over and over again.

If you have bought btc last year and tried holding Bitcoin for 1 year, that would have lead into a x7 and you wouldn't be able to sell the epic Peak, because muh my 1year hodl rule.

>A fucking x7 in 1 year
You wanna tell me you haven't done x14 yet to outperform the taxes? You srly have to be retarded.

>>9097853
>but they've already started contracting it out in order to nab the big fish.
Sauce of anything you say? Have the broken monero already? Have the traced OTC tradea? Have the tracked down p2p trades?

>>9098062
>Have the broken monero already?
They dont need to. You need to report and deliver proof of your stuff - otherwise they assume what you made and tax you this amount. Great to "hide" your $20k gains, when they tax you for $50k.

>Have the traced OTC tradea?
If you think they cannot track high amounts of fiat money, you are wrong. Because this is always the vulnerable gateway: fiat money. The big OTC desks are registered and all that stands in between the data and the government is a single call.

>Have the tracked down p2p trades?
All they need to do is to make a couple of honeypots for people who want to exchange low five digit amounts via e.g. localbitcoin and "p2p trades" will become a paranoid shitshow.

>>9098137
Thanks for confirming that they are not able to trace anything.

>$20k gains
You are fucking scared about 20k? Nobody even cares about that low garbage numbers. If we talk about 2m you need some effort to get that money back into the cicle, but otherwise stop spreading fear.

>honeypots
Cute, very cute.

>>9098185
Instead of cucky handwaiving, you could also disprove my claims with valid arguments.

The difficulty of hiding money from the IRS is a bell curve in almost every western country - and anything between five and eight digits (10k-10m) is right in the middle of it, as you are still way too small to pull elaborated stunts, yet big enough to be worth the effort.
And these amounts are high enought to throughly fuck you up, if they become aware of you trying to fuck around.

But yeah, just try it. Like I said: I am very happy to follow the "the IRS did catch me"-threads from all those who thought they were "smarter" in playing the system than those, who make the rules.

>inb4 "u r 2 retarded wagecuck gov shill lol"

>>9096750
Kek most of Europe is worse nigga

>>9098005
No matter what you do right now you risk being justed. If you pay your taxes and it turns out the IRS isnt even trying to give a shit you get justed. If you pay your taxes and the IRS panicks to make crypto illegal you get a knock on the door to turn in your crypto and promptly get justed. If it turns out that taxes on crypto is simply unenforceable and most people simply stop using fiat for large purchases in a few years you get justed.

>>9098047

Bitch I have been around since bitcoin was trading sideways at 250$. Whether I make 7 or 14x gains now makes no difference at this point. The last thing I am gonna do is bow down in obedience and pay 40-50% tax. Clearly you are the one der nicht mehr alle tassen im Schrank hatt. If I had a child which grew up to be as stupid as you I would seriously be disappointed. But hey, take that gov dick nice and deep.

>>9098296
>And these amounts are high enought to throughly fuck you up, if they become aware of you trying to fuck around.

Now they have to worry about repercussions if they push people too hard. The moment the IRS fucks with the wrong programmer then he goes on a spree making monero dapps and privacy tech as a giant fuck you. You can bet your ass there are some great minds holding crypto right now.

It wont take much to shit out stuff that absolutely pushes this shaky situation right off a cliff. I think this technology makes taxation impossible.

Im going to fucking piss on their doorstep.

I started buying ETH in early 2017, and wound up making trades on Etherdelta for DICE and DNT on Liqui. Etherdelta has no records of transactions and Liqui is a fuckin Ukrainian exchange so the IRS won't get anything from them.

I do actually have records of all my trades in a notepad file, including the Etherdelta trades. After fucking up huge on DNT (rookie mistake), I went all in on Link shortly after it began trading on ED and am a top 100 wallet. I cashed out a little bit of ETH on Coinbase last year and claimed those on my return. My plan is to not cash out until Link gets to at least $10, though staking in LinkPool is my goal so I may not cash out for quite a while.

If I had reported all my crypto-crypto trades, I'd probably owe between $70-100k, but my plan is to file an amendment in the future, say "oops I didn't realize they were taxable. Here they are". By that time, the $70-100k I would have had to cash out of Link to pay the taxes should be worth at least ten times that, so whatever penalty I have to pay should be relatively minor compared to those gains.

I've also got a bank account in an Asian country that I'd rather not disclose and can do OTC trading here. So, I can cash out into that bank account, then withdraw money from the ATM card anywhere in East and Southeast Asia. My plan is just to incrementally do that and live cheap in Thailand/Vietnam waiting for Link to moon hard.

>>9098404
>most people simply stop using fiat for large purchases
Which will not happen. It is too inconvinient, too volatile, too unreliable and for most people also too dangerous in comparism to the regular system.
It is a good speculative asset, if you know what you do.
It is not a currency.

This is in fact not a debatable toppic, except you are a libertarian austrian economics idiot. Which would make you the same as the average scientology-cuck.

>>9098488
>The moment the IRS fucks with the wrong programmer
The IRS had fucks with geniuses for decades and will continue to do so.
Said geniuses build companies and will soon realize, that compliance is way more convenient and profitable for them. Also, if they have significant amounts to bring around taxes, they have tricks like e.g. the double Irish.

Do not be deluded by the "a genius will arise and overthrow the system"-narrative. If YOU are said genius, the way I described above is, what will happen. If you are NOT said genius, you are bound to believe this narrative and get fucked by the IRS. It is simply make-believe for the gullibles to ensure you "just HODL", because "the messiah will come".

>>9098627
>Which will not happen.

Wanna bet

Every single one of your points are demonstrably false. In the coming years the technology will continue to be more stable, more widely adopted and more reliable. You are arguing from the perspective of someone with absolutely no idea how technology has flowed thus far.

You remind me of the people who claimed the internet was just a fad.

> "the messiah will come"

The only one hoping that technology doesnt continue to advance are you, the flat earthers and organized religion as a whole.

>>9098627
Riddle me this

If someones entire income is generated with a privacy coin. How does anyone really know how much that person has made?

And then its over from there. The whole thing is stupid. If someone generates income from privacy tech and that person has no reason to ever cash out.

That's checkmate bro

>>9098572
>"oops I didn't realize they were taxable. Here they are"
"I never knew I must report my gains according to the law." equals to "I never know I must comply with the law.". It is a bullshit statement in almost every known jurisdiction.

It is similar to "oops I didn't realize theft is illegal. Here are the goods.". It will still lead to charges for theft, even if you walked into the shop, grabbed the goods and walked out without hiding the goods. If you are not a child and/or mentally retarded, the best thing you get with this is a slightly amused judge.

Problem with judges deciding tax fraud charges is: they rarely laugh. I know some of them and they are good, calm and reasonable people. But do not fuck around with "sovereign citizen" or similar bullshit. They will be patient with you, but they will not put up with this for long, after they told you once or twice to cut this shit.

>>9098711
>You remind me of the people who claimed the internet was just a fad.

You mistake me as a nocoiner with no knowledge, my friend. I can assure you, that this is not the case, I only put money into stuff I understand. I also made good gains over the past year and reported them, as I roughly know, what the IRS is able to do.
And again: you're not doing yourself any favors by trying to cheat in a game, in which you have no idea to play in the first place. Against people, who invented and run the game.

>Wanna bet
Would love to. It would be a very secure one.

>The only one hoping that technology doesnt continue to advance are you, the flat earthers and organized religion as a whole.
Technology does advance, regardless of what you or I think, you are right with that. But so far, the only thing I see is people trying to evade taxes, desperately lobbying to not have their token be classified as securities and making statements, that will most likely end up them being in prison (*wink* Balina *wink*).

The legal framework we talk about here adjusts itself according to the tech, which is why the tech can never fulfil the libertarian dreams of the overthrowing of the framework itself.

You should be buying PFR instead of whatever crap youre holding. Their mainnet comes out on April 30th. Do you realize that Localbitcoins now has KYC? Do you understand that once PFR is out, people will all jump ship to avoid having to upload documents? People kept doubting the project but these guys deliver. Do you want to be poor forever.

>>9098738
>If someones entire income is generated with a privacy coin. How does anyone really know how much that person has made?

Ask his employer.
If he is self-employed, sooner or later (at least, when he makes slightly bigger purchases like e.g. a house) the IRS will catch up, suspect money laundring and demand documents.

>That's checkmate bro
It would be checkmate, if you could live from privacy coins alone. If everybody would accept privacy coins as currency. If it would exactly work the way you think it works.

Problem is: you project, what you think will happen into a system, you do not understand. Please do not take this as an insult, but this is wishful thinking. And especially when you think about committing something against the law (like avoiding taxes), you should talk to a professional, who can give you a somewhat legal way to lower the amount you have to pay. Or even prevent it completely.

But trying to do it the way YOU THINK it works is on the same level as sovereign citizens trying to avoid charges for a missing licence plate on their car. Just with taxes.