/biz/ - Business & Finance

Without doing anything or just a little ofc

Like 400k..

>>8887312

Get a job. Practically any job.

>>8887285

I wouldnt trust ETFs due to stock market correction. Buy property somewhere like hong kong. Property to rent ratio is 15x, so if you want 24k a year youll need 24*15 = 360k, lets say 400k to be safe.

>>8887285

Safely? Really doesn't exist. It all depends on how much risk you want to take.

The safest would be buying US treasury bonds will yield you like 2,5-3% but then again biz believes the government will collapse so how safe is that in the end? You would need USD 792.000 - 960.000 to generate the income you want. I am not a US Citizen but I think US Citizens don't pay taxes on those interests on US Treasury bonds. If they do you need to add that to the capital you require.

The next thing in the risk hierarchy would be to buy a freshly built rental property in a good area. I am not an expert in US property but generally a net return of 6% should not be incredibly difficult to find on that kind of property. That would mean you need to have USD 400.000 for your desired income. Again taxes excluded if applicable. Also, possible gains when selling the property are also excluded.

Next step: buy property which needs some refurbishment and use some leverage to boost your return. Its very common to work with 40/60 (or even more leverage but lets keep it relatively safe) which means you put down USD 150.000 yourself and the bank adds USD 225.000 to that. In return they get first right of mortgage in case things go bad. Smartly refurbished property can easily generate 8-12% if you pick the right areas (Florida reports over 15% in a lot of areas). In the 10% yield example you get USD 37.500 in income per year. At a mortage of 4%, you will pay the bank USD 9.000 per year so you get a net return of USD 28.500, which is even more than you indicated you needed. Your yearly return on investment is actually 19% here on the capital you spent.

Honestly, anything beyond this is high risk. VC funds (>100k minimum i

Generally venture capital funds (they will likely require an investment of USD 100.000 or more) aim for a return of 25% IRR. However, it usually takes over 5 years before you start seeing payouts so it doesn't really fit your strategy.

Last in line is crypto which could return you much much more or take all your money. But its surely not a safe guarantee for returns.

There's some alternatives which yield slightly lower return than safe real estate like certain very solid corporate bonds or high dividend yielding companies (usually oil or financial companies). Then again after 2008 and looking at what's happening regarding renewable energy and the likes its a good question whether these investments are still safe.

>>8887421
Honestly I don't know where the OP lives but I would never advise someone to buy real estate in an area he does not know nor can visit on a regular basis (at least a few times a year).

If he has to fly over to Hong Kong from the US twice a year its going to eat his returns. He's also going to have to find a local agency who fixes anything that breaks in the property and takes care of finding new tennants and all of that stuff.

Also, very importantly, people are going to pay you in HKD, which means you're exposed to currency risk if you're paying your bills in USD.

Zcoin nodes.
1 node costs 30k right now and you get 3% dividends per MONTH.

>>8887285
I believo in the Vivo $100 EOM

>>8887621
wow

>>8887853
This

Bitcoin will safely triple your investment this year, at minimum.

>>8887285
A lot of people swear by a 4% safe withdrawal rate (comes from the trinity study, google it), the general idea is that historically market will grow your portfolio 8% a year on average (some years it might be negative, some years it might be 20%), so it's safe to take out 4% and reinvest the remaining 4%. A simple way to calculate 4% is just multiply your yearly expenses by 25. That puts you at needing $600k.

Now of course, past results don't guarantee future gains, we might never see those kinds of gains again, or we might see better gains for the next 100 years. Nobody knows. To mitigate this risk, some people use 3% or lower withdrawal rates, since it's safer, but it means you have to save more.

Then there's a whole lot of possibilities for allocating your portfolio, what amount of index funds, stocks, or bonds, to have, etc. That's a deep rabbit hole. Don't worry about buying property, real estate is just another asset class and buying it outright can decrease diversification.

>>8887285
50-100k
Yes, that's what you need for trading professionally. Your risk should be 1-3% per trade, aka your stoploss needs to be placed right. You also need to stop listening to educators online whose job is to lure you to their shitty brokers. Go to a real broker, don't trade on full leverage. Learn to calculate risk, learn market dynamics, learn what moves the market. Develop a strategy and only then you'll be successful. There's a reason why 90% fails in this business and there are always people wanting your spot. You have to put in the work or else you are just hoping. Bye.

>>8887853
Yup, Zcoin is a good proof of stake coin.. all us small scale crypto investors should be trying to acquire a node.. If you don't have enough for a node, you can get 80% of the node returns by holding it in thai exchange..

>>8888003
> real estate is just another asset class (...)

I do not really understand what you mean by this. Common Joe has a much easier time understanding how much rent people pay in his area and then buying a newly built property. Worst case he lets an agency do it and gets a slightly lower return but even more security.

Average Joe however really has no fucking clue on how to value the companies on the Nasdaq or S&P. Your safe withdrawal rate is honestly a piece of bullshit which in practise is not applicable since you can't know whether you buy at a peak or dip as a common investor.

Looking at what the stock markets have done in the last 5 years, the odds are very high the OP will be buying in at ridiculous prices which will then have to converge back to the mean. In common language: he's going to get fucked all over if a new crash happens which could honestly happen at any given time.

Lets say he invests 500k now and then the market drops 50%. He still has to live so at that point he's going to have to take out 8% of the remaining value at shit prices to pay the bills.

This guy wants yearly returns in the "next coming years". Your strategy requires a horizon of 25 years of cumulative investing to be relatively safe.

>>8888120
> There's a reason why 90% fails in this business and there are always people wanting your spot. You have to put in the work or else you are just hoping

More like 99% and the rest is just lucky. Makes sense statistically.

There's literally next to no actively managed fund which outperforms the benchmark in the long term unless by getting some really lucky huge strikes.

If you value your time at anything at all you're better investing in real estate or at worst some index trackers at low yearly costs.

By the way I am launching a passive crypto fund next month as like I said in the above post I don't believe that actively trading can beat the market on the long term.

The fund will automatically track the top 20 coins by market cap (rebalancing every week).
Tokens are excluded.
Coins need at least 6 months of track record before being allowed in the portfolio
Coins need a minimum daily traded volume (which will be based on the size of the fund portfolio to ensure liquidity)
Weekly entry/exit possibility
Professional dashboard, fully transparant company and fund setup
Using hardware wallets where possible to store >90% of all coins. Minimum amount is left on 2-3 most reliable exchanges to be able to do the weekly rebalancing.

No fixed management fees except for a +- 1% yearly fee to cover the costs of the fund (legal, administration, accounting, registered address etc). If anything is left at the end of the year we distribute it as a bonus.

VC style 20% profit share BUT only after 5% IRR is achieved. So investors know that we don't make a dime until they have a return which is around equal to what you can expect on the stock market on the long term.

US investors (except for accredited) will probably be excuded due to ridiculous laws. Perhaps someone here can shed some light on those?

Would love some serious input on the above business case.

Oh also there's no entry fee. Exit fees are 1% if people sell within the year as I want to avoid people using this product as a trading tool. Its aimed at long term investors who believe in the cryptoworld in general without pretending to know which coins are going to make it in the end like 90% of the people on this board. Trust me, in the end it will be much better of a strategy...

>>8888206
>I do not really understand what you mean by this. Common Joe has a much easier time understanding how much rent people pay in his area and then buying a newly built property. Worst case he lets an agency do it and gets a slightly lower return but even more security.
That's one way to do it but definitely not always the best way, really depends on location.
> Average Joe however really has no fucking clue on how to value the companies on the Nasdaq or S&P. Your safe withdrawal rate is honestly a piece of bullshit which in practise is not applicable since you can't know whether you buy at a peak or dip as a common investor.
He can dump it into index funds or even just the S&P500 and this strategy will probably still work. Roboadvisors make this shit way easier than buying/renting/managing real estate.
The trinity study determined the safe withdraw rate by looking at the success rate where people bought in at different times - including when they bought at the very top.
>Looking at what the stock markets have done in the last 5 years, the odds are very high the OP will be buying in at ridiculous prices which will then have to converge back to the mean. In common language: he's going to get fucked all over if a new crash happens which could honestly happen at any given time.
Sure we're overdue for a correction, people have been calling it for the past few years, but nobody knows if it will be this year or 5 years from now. You can end up on the losing side if you're not in the market during those years of gains.
The market regularly hits all-time highs. Look back through history and there is a continual series of all-time highs as the market goes higher and higher.
>Lets say he invests 500k now and then the market drops 50%. He still has to live so at that point he's going to have to take out 8% of the remaining value at shit prices to pay the bills.
Sure that would sting, he should set it aside in cash or bonds if he can't handle that.

>>8889195
>>8888206
> Next step: buy property which needs some refurbishment and use some leverage to boost your return. Its very common to work with 40/60 (or even more leverage but lets keep it relatively safe) which means you put down USD 150.000 yourself and the bank adds USD 225.000 to that. In return they get first right of mortgage in case things go bad. Smartly refurbished property can easily generate 8-12% if you pick the right areas (Florida reports over 15% in a lot of areas). In the 10% yield example you get USD 37.500 in income per year. At a mortage of 4%, you will pay the bank USD 9.000 per year so you get a net return of USD 28.500, which is even more than you indicated you needed. Your yearly return on investment is actually 19% here on the capital you spent.
Maintenance on property is expensive too, there's closing costs, inspection fees, repairs, insurance, property taxes, etc. Plus the cost of refurbishing can be pricey.
You can't just take the income from rent, pay the mortgage and pocket the rest. There's ongoing costs and unexpected costs always come up. Houses are not always the best choice.
It's also entirely possible that real estate crashes 50% too and suddenly you can't rent your place for more than your mortgage payment. Uh oh.

>>8888888

>>8889356

You're absolutely not wrong and the way I've shown it is of course without going into all the details.
As mentioned this strategy is higher risk and requires you to know some stuff regarding real estate, even better having 2 good hands and being able to do most small repairs yourself and knowing whether or not the property you buy is going to need big repairs (like a new roof etc) in the foreseeable future.

However, there has not been a significant dip in rental prices (USA example in picture) in the last 50 years. The only way rental rates will ever go down 50% like you're indicating is if average wages in the US drop by the same or more, which will inevitably lead to cheaper living costs which then reduces the amount the OP needs to live the way he wants. Honestly chances for this to ever happen are near zero unless the nuclear holocaust breaks out but if you believe that is going to happen you shouldn't really invest in anything but underground shelter and rice bags.

Sorry forgot to add picture.

Of course it can vary from area to area but generally a 50% dip in rent prices just doesn't happen in a "crash" kind of style. It's not impossible but then it will happen over decades like possibly in Detroit style cities, giving you ample time to respond to the changes and move elsewhere.

>>8887621
>>8887640
>>8887852
this anon invests

>>8889485
Yeah, unfortunately I mostly use my expertise to help already rich people get wealthier.
Then I get fucked in the ass by my business partners too.

Not all that much better off than the regular bizposter aside from having tons of investment experience and a little bit of capital to put to work.

>>8889460
> As mentioned this strategy is higher risk and requires you to know some stuff regarding real estate, even better having 2 good hands and being able to do most small repairs yourself and knowing whether or not the property you buy is going to need big repairs (like a new roof etc) in the foreseeable future.
Yea, takes some skills that not everyone has. Would have to be something OP would be wiling t do and they don't want to do anything.
> However, there has not been a significant dip in rental prices (USA example in picture) in the last 50 years. The only way rental rates will ever go down 50% like you're indicating is if average wages in the US drop by the same or more, which will inevitably lead to cheaper living costs which then reduces the amount the OP needs to live the way he wants.
Fair point, didn't realize it kept up so well across the board. I was thinking of smaller areas that had seen that sort of thing happened over time.

>>8889620
What's your personal shitcoin portfolio? Weighted market cap strategy like you described?

summon 88888888888 for Akroma masternode

Just buy coss, like 20k of COSS.

>>8888416
Do you think your fund would offer something different over current existing solutions (iconomi DAAs, crypto20, hold10, bit20)? I'm not condoning any of them, just saying the space is already crowded.

>>8889673
Right now I have the following exposure to crypto:

+- 40k portfolio directly spread over ethereum, ethereum classic, neo, litecoin and nano. By no means I would suggest people to do the same exactly. Its more of an estimated guess.

I strongly believe in diversifying more so am going to invest an additional 50k in my passive fund at launch. This is also to to show that I'm willing to put skin in the game.

I also have 2000 shares in HUT8 Mining Corp which I bought for CAD 2,50 each in the first private placement they did back in december before they went to the Toronto stock exchange. Met the Bitfury and HUT8 guys twice in Toronto as we were investing from the family office I worked for. Due to very very appealing electricity prices they negotiated in Canada they are profitable at any Bitcoin price over USD 2.000 - USD 2.500.

They also have exclusivity on Bitfury hardware in North America and are aiming for 200 MW in total capacity by the end of the year (nearing 60 MW as of now).

Sean (ex-CEO) got cocky as shit when the private placements were 12x oversubscribed and they didn't even bother to hire a good marketing / investor relations team which fucked over their public listing completely. Fair value is more like 10-12 CAD per share if you compare with players like HIVE. They've finally admitted this now and an investor relations team is going to start creating more buzz later this month. They should've known average investors and even institutionals don't look at low-cap toronto exchanges for their investments.

>>8887370
I have close to 400k and will have over that amount if BTC reaches 17k again.

How do I do this? Completely serious I want to know because I work minimum wage and want fucking out.

>>8889865
Yes.

Compared to BIT20:

> caps coins at 10% of wallet

This already makes it a product that does something completely else than the market. Correlation will not be good.

> requires you to watch 5 youtubes, set up your own exchange account, wallet, transfer coins and so on

The general audience does not want this. Our fund requires you to wire EUR or USD directly to our bank account after signing all the legal docs. Everything is fully transparent. This is a huge thing for confidence of average investors and pretty much anyone who doesn't just gamble and speculate.

> website looks made by a toddler and pretty shade

Open for debate but personally I wouldn't touch a company/fund with a website like that ... ever.

Compared to Iconomi:

> fee structure

Often 2,50% - 8% a year in fixed fees regardless of the return on your investment. The guys make money on your invested capital regardless of what happens. People really don't like that anymore and you can see that reflected in the volumes invested on Iconomi. For the abovementioned HUT8 investment I had 20 million ready from my clients within 3 days.

> Reliability & complexity

A site on which practically anyone can create a product doesn't inspire much confidence either. Again, it forces the consumer to figure out which DAA is best which takes time and knowledge.

Compared to Hold10:

> allowed investors:

Due to US law they only provide to ACCREDITED US investors. Go read what that means. You won't be able to invest.
Non-US people can't invest at all

> Management fee:

2,5% for doing nothing but running a bot with set rules. We charge literally only the real costs we make to keep the fund running.


Funny thing is I wrote the concept for this passive fund last November, 2 weeks before the HOLD10 idea from Bitwise got media attention. They're stuck in the US offering to accredited investors though so there's surely room for a player like me offering (a better product) in Europe/Russia.

>

>>8889881
By reading >>8887621 and sorting out the 6% real estate rental income strategy

>>8890061
Oh yeah also to add:

Hold10 rebalances monthly, we do it weekly.
Hold10 allows only quarterly redemptions, we allow it weekly too.

Liquidity is key. These guys are just as bad as oldschool hedge funds.

On top of that they charge you 3% if you want out in the first 12 months.

>>8887285
Fixing up houses .. Id guess youd need about 160k-200k and a lot of effort . but I think youd safely make more then 2k a month if you played your cards right on the house you bought . btw thats just if you want to buy the place in full . you can always put a downpayement on a mortgage and fix it up for around 80k.

>>8890083
Their business model really just makes me mad. Its just like hedge fund fuckers and bankers who charge their clients 2-3% per year for badly managed funds or, in this case, literally doing nothing.

It doesn't cost shit extra to allow for more liquidity once you have it all automated. They're just scared better competition will pop up so they'll force you to wait 3 months and then pay a ridiculous exit fee.

disclosure: I used to work in private banking before switching to a privately held investment/family office.

>>8887285
Depends on what you mean by safely. 10-year treasury yield is at 2.834% so you would need like like 850k to get 2k nominal dollars. Don't forget inflation though (subtract like 2% from any return on average).

>>8890061
Read up some more on Bittwenty too now:

"SmartCoins are guaranteed to be worth at least their face value (and perhaps more, in some circumstances)"

Can anyone explain to me how this guarantee can work unless they directly hold the underlying coins? What if BTS collapses? What if no one wants to buy BTS? Do they guarantee the company behind this is going to pay back people in any given case?

Feels like investing in paper gold through 4-way derivatives. This shit will get u fucked up in the long term.

>>8887621
>bonds
>beating inflation

>>8889870
Neat I'd never heard of these guys. Was doing some DD on HIVE and thought they are incredibly overvalued at a half billion and Genesis are scumbags

>>8887285
>USD
HAHAHA anon... I'm not even going to say it.

>>8890182

Yeah its absolutely ridiculous how little marketing they did.

https://www.hut8mining.com/

>>8890181
The guy wants 2k a month for the next X years. You're not wrong pointing this out of course.

>>8890182
If you have any questions I was involved from the very start and met all people involved multiple times so I'll gladly help out (and attract more investors to increase my ROI ;) )

>>8890238
>>8889620
>Yeah, unfortunately I mostly use my expertise to help already rich people get wealthier.
Then I get fucked in the ass by my business partners too.
can we talk off-site?
i'm fresh out of college as of 4 months ago, already salaried 50k as a SQL dev (but this company is on the way out, cracks are showing) and I have no debt. about 20k in liquid cash and a quarter million in crypto.
if working with a compassionate, motivated individual (who won't "fuck you in the ass" like your business partners), please leave a contact or some such.

>>8888416
Hit me up brudda chadofork@protonmail.com. I work in banking right now at a BB (think GS, MS). Doesn’t mean at all that my opinion is qualified but hey I might have some helpful insight. I’ve been looking into what it takes to setup a fund and I can send that over to you. Make a trip code here (with a fairly secure hash). Email me the hash so I know that it’s you.
Cheers

are we back?

>>8887285
835 omg @ around 12k would net you $30 a year per token within 6 months of the final version of plasma being released with potential to be much higher

>>8887852
>Also, very importantly, people are going to pay you in HKD, which means you're exposed to currency risk if you're paying your bills in USD
Except the HKD is pegged to the dollar

>>8887421
Hong Kong real estate really has that good return?

>>8888003
The trinity study does not work for (today, capital preservation, early retiree) 3.5% is the highest you should go

>>8891152
sent

>>8887285
>blockchain he says

https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&q=blockchain