/biz/ - Business & Finance

How the hell am I expected to pay CGT on UNREALISED gains. I don't have any AUD to pay the tax on my fucking "gains", and due to volatility two weeks later it's a drastically different picture. am I expected to sell a portion of my investment just to pay fucking tax? Thats literally retarded.

I'm a fucking shit kicking wagecuck, I'll happily pay tax when I cash out to AUD, but before then? Get fucked, this country fucking sucks.

>>8870402
Lul that's why you transfer to something like Binance and don't report...

More FUD and scare tactics. They're going to get some pussies with this shit but deep down they're shitting themselves because they know 99% of people aren't going to bother with this shit.

>>8870402
Who cares. Let them come after you. You do realise the ATO has been losing funding for years now right? They're getting weaker, not stronger.

>>8870416
All my shits on Binance and I'll happily plead ignorance when I cash out, don't get me wrong I know there's no sense in trying to fuck the taxman. But this current system is fucking retarded, you dont pay CGT when your property increases in value, you pay it when you fucking SELL.

>>8870402

yes goy, pay your taxes. The government needs more shekels for Muhammad and his wives.

>>8870431

They may lose funding but they're becoming way more efficient as they continue to invest in automation. I'd still be wary, best to buy and sell in person and attempt to dodge undercover cops if you want to avoid tax.

I refuse to pay my taxes so that sandniggers can continue to be paid for.

Literally no way they can currently track it if people are trading across 5 different exchanges in 4 different continents, on top of the addition of privacy coins and decentralised exchanges.
Some people couldn't even track all their old transactions if they had a gun to their head

>>8870402
You only pay them once you realize the gains (i.e. cashout). That might include spending crypto above $10,000 on actual things.

>>8870656
False;
Their current "What to do" says you pay on any coin-to-coin transaction;

If you feel ballsy or want to use a VPN/Fake email then please do the country a favour and tell them how impractical C-2-C taxing is here

https://lets-talk.ato.gov.au/PAG/news_feed/consultation-substantiating-cryptocurrency-taxation-events

>>8870288
Ausfag here, if I haven't cashed out any of my crypto do I still need to pay tax?

>>8870288
They better allow us to pay tax in crypto or Australia can get fucked. I'm so SICK of paying other peoples welfare payments

>>8870656
Me again

Exchanging one cryptocurrency for another cryptocurrency
Where you exchange one cryptocurrency for another cryptocurrency, you dispose of one CGT asset and acquire another CGT asset.

Records need to be retained for each transaction, in accordance with the record keeping rules. This means that each item is separately accounted for and recorded when it is acquired and disposed of, with relevant Australian dollar values recorded.

It does not matter how many exchange transactions you undertake. You need to undertake this process for every transaction occurring during the income year.

Followed by:
Questions for consultation

Are there any practical issues in relation to complying with the taxation obligations that arise for each cryptocurrency to cryptocurrency transaction?

>>8870705
I have never traded crypto to crypto on an Australian exchange so how would they know?

>>8870705
>>8870728
>mfw I think you're right

Well, enjoying long-term HODLing.

>>8870707
If you have sold any crypto-to-crypto (eg Link to BTC, BTC to REQ) then yes. Theoretically you do. Follow form link above and tell them it's fucking retarded and why

>>8870288
FUCK THESE CUNTS
http://www.news.com.au/finance/money/tax/ive-never-come-across-such-a-mongrel-bunch-of-bastards-four-corners-to-highlight-ato-abuses/news-story/53c8198a71eae5a27cee17eb61bff6f7

These cunts & their kids are running around driving race cars & flying helicopters...
FUCK'EM!!!!
http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2017-06-13/ato-deputy-commissioner-michael-cranston-resigns/8614572

>>8870733
>>8870606
See that.
Depends how you want to play your cards

would expect no less from a country full of abos and low-iq criminal offspring

>>8870288
All whales have zero reason to stay

>>8870834
This.

Who gives a fuck, it's Australia.

>>8870288
Doesn't New Zealand have zero tax on crypto? With the way things are looking, I might have to apply for NZ citizenship and cash out there.

>>8870775
All I've done is buy LTC from BTC Markets and send it to a coldwallet then to binance/bittrex.

So if I have gains from trading but don't tell my crypto for AUD, I still need to pay the CGT with fiat I have in the bank?

Read the Let’s Talk. Used the link above so Hello ATO spergs lel.
So listen up - when you transfer ETH/BTC to Binance you’re transferring it to the Binance wallet. If you buy alts and do a million trades and don’t withdraw bits and pieces to MEW like a paranoid fucktard then I don’t see how that counts as exchanging one crypto for another. All the “trades” happen in Binance’s virtual shitpipe. When you want to cash out you withdraw ETH/BTC back to IndRes or whatever. Exchange for fiat then pay CGT on any profit.
If you’re trading between LTC-ETH-BTC etc on IndRes or similar then that might be different because all those can be exchanged for fiat on the spot. But with Binance your essentially doing one transaction in and one out of another wallet.

fuuuuuuuuuuuu. my linkies better be stinkies

>>8871072
try this. Get a good lawyer and create a precedent case. Hopefully the judge will be a crypto enthusiast to

>>8871128
I will need 10000 XMR to find said lawyer

So if I buy ETH then trade it for LINK an hour later, do I need to report the capital gains during that one hour?

How the fuck is this even supposed to work when you literally can't even buy most crypto directly with fiat? The entire concept of a monetary value is meaningless.

I'm so fucked if they look at local bitcoins records, so fucked.

WTF , I thought I only had to pay when I cashed out, not have to pay on every trade?! How the fuck will that work if you don't have the money to pay for the gains - you have to sell your coins for fiat to cover gains?

>>8871207
This is what I am wondering too. These dogs want me to sell my valuable crypto assets for their worthless AUD? If they accept crypto for tax that would be a different story.

>>8871207
who gives a fuck, theyre not going to enforce it, just pay tax on what you cash out itll be fine

>>8871158
Right now I’m getting completely justed on IOST. Can I trade back to ETH & record it as a loss to offset last week’s CAPITAL GAINZ on EOS/ETH?
What about just using the “Funds” balance on Binance as a reporting mechanism? It just displays your BTC worth.
Or, how about arguing that you can’t acertsin the AUD value of each trade as Binance has been hacked and isn’t “reputable” lel

>>8871207
The best part is how you can go into debt on your tax alone, and owe more than your entire net worth.

>>8870705
>if you’re feeling ballsy
Why would I need courage to fill in a form on a govt website? You think they don’t already have access to everything I do?

>>8871251
What I'm saying is that they just aren't assets in the conventional sense if you can't directly sell them for fiat.

This whole thing is about as retarded as taxing people when they exchange $5 chips for $10 chips at a casino.

>>8871158
yes of course and it works by fair market value

>>8871133
get a gofund me or something like this going. Make some youtube videos, spam twitter, and you might get that amount

>>8871100
The ATO will beg to suck our cocks for our Linkies.
https://blogs.sap.com/2018/03/06/blockchain-in-a-nutshell/

>>8870288
>Don't worry about us tracking every facet of your life. We're fighting terrorism! You don't support terrorism, do you goy?

>>8871254
Who the fuck came up with these laws anyway? Got any specific names?

Let me put something in perspective for anyone who is concerned about this. While the ATO may think the current system is an enforcement nightmare, it is absolutely nothing compared to what is coming in the next year.
Sure, it might be a massive pain to subpoena Binance for Australian customer information, especially when people withdrawing <2BTC a day (most people) might not have completed any KYC, but at least it's theoretically possible.
Read pic related, from the Blocknet whitepaper. An atomic swap DEX can transfer any token into any functional privacy coin then "out" into either the same token, or a different token. DEXes like Blocknet won't have anyone to subpoena. There's no third party. There will be literally no way to trace any coin that is moved this way. Match that with Dai:
>https://medium.com/@james_3093/the-dai-stablecoin-is-a-game-changer-for-ethereum-and-the-entire-cryptocurrency-ecosystem-13fb412d1e75
And you have a completely decentralised stablecoin that retains value as long as Ethereum is worth, well, anything.

Together, you have 1) A completely straightforward way to anonymise the movement of any token into any other token (or even into the same token) 2) A truly decentralised stablecoin to store value in.
The consequences of these two things are difficult to overstate. Realistically, the ONLY way to tax people for cryptocurrency behaviour will be to monitor transitions back to fiat. This is the situation that crypto fans have been supporting for ages, saying transitions to fiat should be subject to CGT and that's all. And even THIS limited framework will only work until properly functional crypto payment mechanisms at point of sale come online.
If I was running the ATO I would be fucking panicking right now.

>>8871343
Anon paying tax on profit is fairly fucking standard

Hypothetically speaking, even if I did Monero wash everything how would I actually cash it out?
Would I have to sell it in-person for cash and then just leave it stuffed under my mattress like a retard?

>>8871363
>Profit
>On non-realised gains
Kek

>>8871363
>Crypto-to-crypto exchange
>Profit

>>8871363
What about paying tax on losses due to tax being from the crypto crypto trade?

>>8871384
What are you talking about tax on losses

>>8871375
You are confused with how realized is actually defined
>>8871382
yes

>>8871408
Does someone really need to spell out the absurdity of this? You exchange ETH to Bitcoin, then you get taxed even though the amount of ETH you traded for it ends up having roughly the same monetary value as the Bitcoin you bought, which may end up going down in value in the future. Not only is this law the height of absurdity, but judging by how people in this thread are reacting to it, anyone who retroactively did crypto-to-crypto exchanges will probably owe some absurd amount of tax to the ATO.

Does this seriously not seem wrong to you at all?

>>8871360
Good. They should be panicking. How dare the people actually have a bit of power over their own fucking life without the government fucking them in the ass at every turn.

>>8871408
They're classifying crypto-crypto trades as realising the gains on one asset and then using them to buy another asset.
That's the entire problem.

>Buy shitcoin A
>It pumps
>Sell shitcoin A for shitcoin B
>Shitcoin B dumps
>You now need to pay CGT for shitcoin A, even if you can't afford it because you lost your life savings on shitcoin B
>You go to jail because you can't produce tax out of nothing

>>8871457
No anon it literally seems completely fucking normal

>>8871520

>>8871360
Isn't this the the whole point of crypto Governments don't get?
If they want to use the decentralized network, they'll have to be nice to the people sharing it with them?

>>8871408
Just for reference:

>If you acquire cryptocurrency as an investment, you may have to pay tax on any capital gain you make on disposal of the cryptocurrency.

>You will make a capital gain if the capital proceeds from the disposal of the cryptocurrency are more than its cost base

https://www.ato.gov.au/General/Gen/Tax-treatment-of-crypto-currencies-in-Australia---specifically-bitcoin/

So what does 'disposal' mean?

>Disposal
>when the entity stops being the asset's owner

https://www.ato.gov.au/General/Capital-gains-tax/Selling-an-asset-and-other-CGT-events/Types-of-CGT-events/

So in other words, on every trade.

Also it is a requirement that YOU keep a record of your transactions, including:
>the date of the transactions
>the value of the cryptocurrency in Australian dollars at the time of the transaction (which can be taken from a reputable online exchange)
>what the transaction was for and who the other party was (even if it’s just their cryptocurrency address).

But they are taking suggestions until April 20th on changing this so make some noise:
https://lets-talk.ato.gov.au/PAG/news_feed/consultation-substantiating-cryptocurrency-taxation-events

>>8871505
This is how realizing a capital gain always works, you only get fucked like your example if you didn't understand how it works before EOFY which is why so many burgers are getting fucked.

>>8871525
It isn't some special crypto law anon, it's the regular law which applies because they defined bit coins as an asset

>>8871574
>>8871593
>It's completely normal and acceptable for the government to demand more than your entire net worth in taxes

"Well if you didn't want to go to jail then you should have cashed out at ATH! It's not our fault you don't understand our convoluted, nonsensical and downright malicious tax code! Now hand it over bub, I don't care that I'm demanding never actually existed."

>>8870867
>All whales have zero reason to stay
This. They're fucking retarded. If they made it simple and realistic to pay tax (flat rate only on cashing out into AUD) then they'd actually make way more in taxes. The way they're going anyone with a remotely large stack with be becoming a non-tax resident and buying a St Kitts passport.

>>8871626
Typo, meant to say
>The money I'm demanding

>>8871626
I don't understand what the fuck you're talking about anon, if your net gain has something to do with ATH then just fucking trade it again now

>>8871642
That's a very good argument to make here: https://lets-talk.ato.gov.au/PAG/news_feed/consultation-substantiating-cryptocurrency-taxation-events

Also CGT on anything is a scam.

Australia
>Income Tax: 45%
>Medicare Levy: 2%
>Capital Gains Tax: 22.5%
>Corporate Tax: 30%
>GST: 10%
>Payroll Tax: 6.85%

New Zealand
>Income Tax: 33%
>Medicare Levy: 0%
>Capital Gains Tax: 0%
>Corporate Tax: 28%
>GST: 15%
>Payroll Tax: 0%

thank god im also a non dom brit resident and dont have to pay tax on foreign income

>>8871360
Malcom Turnbull
>Jobs & Growth
>more 457
>more students
>property invest
ATO
>where money?

>>8871697
>Income Tax: 45%
um no sweetie
$1 – $18,200 Nil 0%
$18,201 – $37,000 19c for each $1 over $18,200 0 – 9.65%
$37,001 – $87,000 $3,572 plus 32.5c for each $1 over $37,000 9.65 – 22.78%
$87,001 – $180,000 $19,822 plus 37c for each $1 over $87,000 22.78 – 30.13%
$180,001 and over $54,232 plus 45c for each $1 over $180,000 30.13 – less than 45%

>>8871574
It's blatantly nonsensical.

fuck em anyway

there's so many loopholes you can use, even if your just middle class

>fly to malaysia, thailand, panama dozen other favourable countries
>set up trust fund
>operate 'trading' business via the fund
>withdraw profits into 'company' bank account in said country

dont be such fucking pussies. the sytem only works when people are scared, i dont think you guys understand how relient the system is on people self reporting and/or major blatant fuck ups. do your homework, escape the rat race.

Burger here. The governments of our countries can state that crypto-crypto trades are a taxable event but from a financial standpoint it really doesn't make a lot of sense for them to pursue this in terms of regulation. It's a double edged sword cutting both ways depending on whether the market is bullish or bearish. Capital gains will be where they continue to get their bread buttered since the banks are in their back pockets.

>>8871557
>But they are taking suggestions until April 20th on changing this so make some noise:
BUMP FFS MAKE SOME FUCKING NOISE ANONS

>>8871557
I filled out that form, I hope they actually take note of what we want.

Also: I day trade on StellarTerm. Come at me ATO

>>8872217
fill it out multiple times from fake emails

>>8871365

xmr to cash couldn't be traced back to you but you would need to treat it as literal drug money since you can't report it