/biz/ - Business & Finance

>>876761

Tesla

>>876765
Possibly, they do seem to start loads of new "miracle projects" that will be the MUTE of our age without much success

>>876761
Twitter, Amazon, some boring video game company.

Twitter: The profits just aren't there
Amazon: Lord Bezos just can't make a profit either

>>876761
Telsa is currently the most leveraged. It will not fall, but after the Model X fiasco, it will get cut to another segment of production. Probably battery storage.

Musk won't give a fuck, that was his plan anyhow from the get-go. He looks at Mars ffs.

>>876772

In all fairness to Twitter, it's not supposed to make a profit. It's a botnet used for propaganda.

>>876772
Twitter had its correction but facebook is still due.

I agree with Tesla and Amazon being trouble, although I dont think either is necessarily using cooked books. Amazon in particular is the Brazil of US stocks - always the company of the future, even in the future. Drone delivery is malinvestment - fighting gravity is an inefficient way to deliver packages, even if they get all the approvals they need. Their phone was malinvestment too and now this voice activated tower thing that basically exists to do google searches. I actually like my Kindle Fire for the price but IIRC those are loss leaders and that's the only reason they work. Loss leaders can be ok but not if every one of your products is one...

Apple is in trouble. All of their cash is tied up in tax shelters overseas and their sales aren't materializing. At least the phones and tablets pretended to be useful; the watch is explicitly a toy.

>>876783
Agree with AAPL, they are on a decline. Steve Jobs died, after him (or even with him) it was all shit, other companies taking over the lead.

>iWatch, biggest bullshit ever concieved.

>>876792
>>876783

Apple shares always tank whenever they release an "s" iPhone. Every 2 years, news agencies will release the same articles claiming "Apple isn't what it used to be" and "The company has lost it's touch". Sales will decrease until the following year when they release redesigned products and break previous sales records.

Just compare their share price and sales figures from the iPhone 4s to the iPhone 5. As well as the release of the iPhone 5s to the iPhone 6.

This is nothing new for them.

Enron didn't even cook books. If you wanted to see where the money was going, you could have looked at their million failed projects or consulting bills. US gov literally protected gamblers. Any real investors knew exactly what was going on. Classic pump and dump

>>876761
Ali Baba

>>876974
>Enron didn't even cook books.
Hold on junior. Enron would sell an asset and record the sale as "income from continuing operations".

That is cooking the books, braising them, grilling them, broiling them, parbroiling them, simmering them, sauteeing them.......

here is acrook who was being a crook for Enron. Even got his wife a stretch in the pen. Set up criminal financial activities in his children's names. Got caught and mowed lawns at his synagogue until it was time for the big house.

US attorney in Houston called Enron an "entire criminal enterprise". I'll add that they were arrogant pricks.

In an industry run by crooks, getting caught is the only crime.

>>876761
Apple

>>876974
If youre defintion of cooks the books is blatantly make up numbers with nothing to back them up then sure, they didnt cook the books.

But no auditor would sign off on that. An auditot would sign off on something that he didnt really understand because the income sources and accounting rules were so loose.

Enron was allowed to book revenue based on projections that never occurred. They were projecting impossible profits though so yes, they certainly cooked the books.

Just as a company may project an impossible bad debt expense. That is cooking the books.

My money is on a major web hosting outlet getting caught with its pants down. Ive seen expenses projected outward with no depreciation or license renewals . You know they have to be booking revenue that isn't really there - at some point the chickens will roost. unfortunately most of the big players insulate themselves far better than Enron ever did

You know what pisses me off is EOG doesn't trade at any kind of discount. I would have bought it if I felt like it did.

>>876974
Except real investors didn't and their books were cooked. And their auditor was charged with a crime for signing off on the books.

>>877066
Enron's auditors were found to be signing off on books they knew were cooked.

>>877066
..yeah and Enron was found guilty of accounting fraud with their auditor guilty of aiding and abetting. That's known as "cooking the books", to literally everybody.

>>877140
Debateable. Hiding losses in shell companies is pretty common practice. Anyway, why weren't the consulting firms held accountable

>>877146
>The executives and insiders at Enron knew about the offshore accounts that were hiding losses for the company; however, the investors knew nothing of this.

>>877146
>Anyway, why weren't the consulting firms held accountable
Arthur Anderson was convicted and put out of business

>>877150
>executives and insiders
It's like you hate free markets. The investor has to do their own DD or else...

At one point Enron was the 8th largest company by market cap. Looking at the large caps I don't really see anybody who qualifies. But that's the thing about scams is you don't really know until TSHTF. I could see another Lehman or AIG occurring with somebody who is overexposed to debt or overleverged if commodities don't rebound soon.

>>877286
I am an oil and gas trader and I was working on the natgas desk of a midstream company during the Enron scandal. In the spring of 2001 we began to notice that Enron's physical day gas traders would buy gas from us each day but started "giving it back" to us at the end of the day. It's autistic but natural gas traders can "walk on a deal" whereas oil traders NEVER walk on a deal or you are black-balled in the industry.

Anyway, our managing director became upset about this Enron bullshit of giving the gas back to us and a meeting was held to discuss this Enron faggotry. He told us to stop doing business with Enron because they were unable to keep gas we had sold to them. Because they advertised themselves as the "greatest energy company ever" and all the other bullshit associated with being prick prima donnas, our MD said to stop doing business with them in April, 2001. Our exec VP nearly lost his mind and a great shitstorm cometh internally on this news. The pres of the company was incredulous and said "If Enron goes under the whole industry will go with it." Some traders were almost violent when told they couldn't do business with Enron anymore. A gas liquids subsidiary of our firm told us to go fuck ourselves; they would continue to do biz with Enron.

We lost no money when Enron finally shit the bed. Our gas liquid subsidiary lost a million dollars to Enron. When the crooked E fell, our leaders walked around the office like a family member had died. The risk management people went nuts of course.

Some Enron traders had drunk the koolaid and had every fucking penny of their investments and retirements savings in Enron stock. They are still walking dead today. Many of the Enron pricks who didn't go to jail went to work for hedge funds.

>>877372
Thanks for adding your perspective on things, its nice to have an insider's view.

>>877372
>whereas oil traders NEVER walk on a deal or you are black-balled in the industry
Why is there this difference between the two industries?

>>877372
>because they were unable to keep gas we had sold to them
Not sure I grasp this completely. Did this kind of activity have any role in their downfall, was it illegal/fraudulent or is this just an example of Enron being a shit company on many levels?

>>877372
>Many of the Enron pricks who didn't go to jail went to work for hedge funds.
What is your opinion of guys like John Arnold, Greg Whalley, Bill Perkins, Dave Coolidge and other Enron/Centaurus alums who went on to do fabulously well after Enron's collapse?

>>877395
>Why is there this difference between the two industries?
I'm interested in knowing this as well.